- 4 months ago
The history of modern media has been a succession of shifts in attention: from newspapers to television, from television to digital platforms, and now from platforms to creator-led and algorithmically curated ecosystems. Each transition has forced brands to rethink where audiences spend time, whom they trust, and how influence is built. Bringing together perspectives from legacy, broadcast, and social-native media, this conversation explores how the economics of attention are changing, what makes an environment valuable to advertisers, and how brands can navigate a world where reach alone is no longer enough.
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TechTranscript
00:12Hello, everyone. Hello, everyone. Welcome. And yeah, we're going to get right into it.
00:17We're going to start talking about attention and what happened to attention first.
00:21And Elsa, I want to start with you. I want to find out, like, you kind of started here
00:25where these other guys want to get to. You're bored on the feed. You reach nearly all of
00:30young France. Talk to me a little bit about attention and where you're taking that, because
00:35now you're on TV. Yeah, I'm on TV for two months now. We've just launched Brut on TV in France.
00:43As you know, we are social first, but we have decided to distribute our long format on TV, too.
00:50Thank you. It's not cannibalization of our audience. It's just a new way to distribute
00:57content. And we are where people are, where the audience is. So we're not in the living
01:04room now.
01:05So when you went from social to TV, did the response surprise you? Did your audience follow
01:10you?
01:11Yeah, I was very surprised because I received a lot of calls from TV stars in France. So
01:17maybe they want to become creators. I don't know. But it's a new way also for them to
01:22diversify themselves. But for me, it was just a distribution strategy, not a big launch. But
01:30now we have older viewers, which is great also.
01:34So older viewers are good, too, huh?
01:36Yeah.
01:38Joy, I want to talk a little bit about old media and new media, New York Times, old and
01:43new media in many ways.
01:44And we kind of passed a milestone in the U.S. a year or two ago when YouTube passed Netflix
01:50and viewership and daily watch time. As you sit out and think about that transition at
01:55the New York Times, does that scare you? Or do you feel like, oh, man, we have this opportunity
01:58and it's even getting bigger?
01:59Yeah. No, it doesn't scare us. I mean, to be honest, I think it's just the latest evidence
02:03of evolving consumer behavior. And as a brand that's been around 175 years, this is our 175th
02:10anniversary this year. We've had to navigate that over and over and over again. And I think
02:15what has really helped us not just survive, but thrive over those 175 years, particularly
02:21in the last decade, is staying true first to our values and to helping people seek the truth
02:29and understand the world. But more importantly, staying true to the evolving consumer habits.
02:34And so making sure that we are a place to read and then we are a place to listen and
02:40then
02:40we are a place to watch. And obviously, as some of these consumer platforms that are
02:45video first are continuing to get bigger and continuing to have more engagement, we want
02:50to make sure that we're there as well.
02:51Yeah. In the early days, 175 years ago, it was whether somebody actually picked up the
02:55newspaper or bought it and took it. And now we think more about impressions. How is that
03:00transition from sort of, I've got a newspaper in my hand to, I'm just getting an impression.
03:04What's that transition been like for you guys?
03:06I mean, I think, you know, my colleague, Alex Hardiman, our chief product officer was on stage
03:10earlier this morning. I think it's about creating all of these different entry points and engagement
03:16moments for readers and viewers and listeners to throughout the day, you know, not just pick
03:22up a paper once, but actually to think about how the New York Times is useful, is additive
03:26to their lives no matter where they are in their day. Rob, CNN, you've been there for 10
03:31years. CNN doesn't have 175-year history, but it has a long history.
03:35Yeah, 45.
03:36You've been expanding it from broadcast of The Roots out on the CTV to Fast, TikTok, social
03:41platforms. How has your vision of the audience changed over the last 10 years as you've expanded
03:46into all these new places?
03:48Yeah, I think, I like to think of it as, you know, a lot of people say it's fragmented.
03:52I think it's more about, it's multiplied into different mindsets, actually, because the
03:57audience we have is now bigger than ever, you could argue, i.e. the mindset of when you've
04:02got TV, maybe it's for breaking news. The mindset, if it's on TikTok, it's probably a one-on-one
04:06relationship with one of our anchors. And then web, maybe it's about, you know, being in the
04:11mind, so you want to go deep on a particular subject. So we have to think about kind of context
04:15and mindsets that people are in. And we also, I mean, you know, 45 years ago, CNN was built
04:21on a new technology called cable, right? It was, that's what enabled it.
04:25I remember when that was new.
04:26Exactly. Cable TV.
04:27That was the disruptor.
04:28Yeah, it was, it's technology enabled it. And it's exactly the same today. And the reason
04:32why, you know, we're still so important to the world is that we have to embrace these
04:36new platforms. We have to embrace them before they disrupt us. Obviously, they still do disrupt
04:41us. We have to try and make them work for us as much as possible. And that's the challenge
04:45is that, you know, how do we make the business models to work environments we don't own when
04:49we rely on essentially someone else's business model? You know, if we're in a social platform,
04:54you're someone else's business model. So it means we still need to invest in our own
04:57and operated assets. And that is still, of course, what we're doing today, where we can
05:01own a one-on-one relationship with a viewer or an audience member.
05:05So yeah, cable, the disruptor before YouTube, before the internet. Do you think the world of
05:10cable and broadcast is going away, will go away, or will it always remain as a piece of that
05:16entire pie? It's a piece. I think it is reinventing itself, really. I mean, it's quite the bundles
05:24you buy now of streamers. It's kind of like a cable TV package. All right. So it's a little bit
05:31of like reinvention going on on what it means. I think it will play a part. But, you know, we
05:36have
05:36to always innovate and make sure we're where audiences are today as well. Because, you know,
05:41our currency ultimately is being relevant and also being trusted. And that's what we trade on.
05:49Cool. I want to talk a little bit about premium. Like when the early YouTube came out, I remember
05:54this. It was like, oh, it's UGC. It's somebody on their couch going, hi, everyone. And nobody's
05:59ever going to watch that. Now, in many ways, that is premium. So for each of you, I'm going to
06:04go down
06:04the line. I'm going to start with you, Elsa, Rob, and then Joy. One word each and then explain what
06:09you mean. A brand isn't really buying reach now. Or maybe they are buying reach now. But what are
06:15they buying? What's the most important thing a brand buys when they're talking and working with
06:18you on your platform? Trust. Trust. Not as a slogan, but more as a core value. And yeah,
06:28definitely trust. Let's talk about trust for a minute. How do you put a value on trust? I'm going
06:34to throw it out to everybody. How do you value? Trust is great. I agree. Trust is all we're going
06:37to have
06:37left. But how do you value that? And I'd be interested for each of you guys to say, how do
06:41you value trust as a currency to an advertiser? Since you mentioned it first, Elsa, how do you
06:48value it? And then I want to hear from each of these guys. Yeah. We can value with different
06:53KPIs. The first is the formats. What kind of format do you create? How do you bring authenticity
07:00in the format? So for example, we, I think we invent for a new format in France, in front
07:07of Brut is more, you don't see necessarily the face of the journalist. We go on the street,
07:13we do live stream. We just give the context, the fact, and then the opinion can, and then
07:20the audience can form their opinion. So that it's not, we are not an opinion media. We are
07:26here just to, to give the keys to understand and give us a lot of trust with, with, with
07:32the audience, because we are not here to, to, to, to tell themselves what they have to think.
07:41And we measure that through the engagement, through the attention, the average time. And
07:46every, every year we do some studies to just to, to measure eight hits. And just to give you
07:51one figure, we, we all the time more up to 85% of trust when, you know, the average trust
08:00in France, I don't know, maybe in the way. So, you know, the country is around 25. So,
08:08you know, I think it's because we, yeah, we are very transparent in the format, very authentic
08:15and, and trust for us is the main KPIs and the main value of the media today.
08:19How do you think about trust, Rob?
08:21I think about trust. And then I think about influence that I ultimately, you know, people
08:27trusting us to help make decisions in their daily lives, right? That could be, you know,
08:32what they're, what they're studying at university. It could be how they're going to vote. It could
08:35be just some information about the football because they want to have a good conversation
08:39at a dinner table in the evening. So, you know, ultimately we're influencing these global
08:44conversations and providing people information to make decisions. So if you're a brand, right,
08:51you are ultimately, you know, if you bring it into the commercial space, you're looking
08:54to influence a mindset or the way that someone thinks about your company. And I think news
08:59will continue. And I think a really interesting commercial model on how we go to market really
09:03is what's your story? What are you trying to get across to the world? Particularly, you know,
09:08still think, although it's come down somewhat in some markets around sustainability, around the
09:13impact they're having beyond the commercial value that they have for a company, how are they making
09:18the world better? And news has a role to play in that. And I think particularly in an AI-driven
09:23world where they want to be relevant in these gen AI environments as well, news is providing signals
09:30out to the whole internet and TV, whatever platforms you think, on what a certain subject could be
09:35and what the conversation is around it. So brands getting access to that and identifying
09:41themselves with that trust is ultimately how we, is ultimately how I think about it, how we trade.
09:46Yep. Joy, talk about trust a little bit for me. I have been trusting the New York Times since I
09:49was 10.
09:50I now actually, as I used to run PC Magazine and review products, I trust Wirecutter. I'm like,
09:54one of the few places I do trust. How important is trust as a metric for all of the New
09:59York Times?
10:00You know, I love that you shared that story because I think that the way we think about trust
10:05is that it's hard earned. We've created relationships with our readers, with our subscribers. It's the
10:12reason that they are paying us, that they're paying us with their time and attention and they're paying
10:16with their wallets. And I think, you know, when it comes to how we think about how that works in
10:23the
10:23advertising market, it is a component of why advertisers come to us. It is because of the trust
10:30that we have developed with our audience. It is why they engage with us multiple times a day.
10:35And ultimately, it's something that can help influence the way that they decide to vote with their wallet
10:41and their brand of loyalty. You know, I want to talk about this just because I've thought about this
10:45and I don't have a good answer, but I'd love to hear what you think. And you brought this up,
10:49Rob, so I'll start
10:49with you. You brought up trust and influence. Can you have influence without trust? And can you have trust
10:55without influence? I mean, yeah, clearly. I think, you know, you're getting on to the misinformation
11:03conversation and just, I think, you know, the rise of misinformation and therefore the dilution of trust or
11:10whatever way you want to think about it, there's moments when trust is vital. You know, the misinformation
11:17during the war in the Middle East recently was a major problem. All of a sudden, everyone's questioning the value
11:23of news brands. But actually, suddenly, someone that was just taking their kids to school that didn't
11:29think they were going to have to deal with this anymore was seeing misinformation about what was
11:32happening. So where did they go? They went to one of us who verifies our content. We go through three
11:37verification steps before anything appears. So if we get something wrong, we're in big trouble, as people
11:42know. They need that source, that final verification source of trust. And that is what we provide.
11:49So the value is, I would say, somewhat is concentrating around brands that are trusted like us,
11:56particularly at times of crisis like that. That's kind of an extreme version, but that's the importance
12:02of it. What about you, Elsa? Trust, influence? Can you have one without the other? And where do you fall
12:07in the line of that? Or we just need both? Yeah, we definitely need both, but it's hard to achieve.
12:14I agree with you. We create safe space. So for trust, it's quite important to have the brand,
12:21to protect the content. And influence, it's hard to measure. I think it's more, we can see,
12:29for example, it's with our faces, new faces, they become creators, they become stars also. So it's a new
12:38way to have influence. But I really like to be very humble. Influence is hard to measure.
12:46I think it's not my mission as a media. My mission is not necessary to have influence. It's just to
12:52educate, to inform in a safe space. And if I can have influence, which is great, but it's not my
13:00first
13:01mission. And we have creators maybe in the room. And it's their job, I think.
13:07Joy, what about on the New York Times, then?
13:08You know, I think that what we are dedicated to is ensuring that we've got fact-based,
13:13independent journalism. And I think that that is something that we seek to sort of inform the
13:18world. I think, to Rob's point, I think there is a lot of danger in just looking for influence
13:26without really understanding, you know, who, where this content is coming from, whether or not
13:32there's fact-based and checks in place. And so I think that organizations like ours are only going
13:38to become more important. Human-made journalism is going to become more important and more rare
13:43in a world of really where providence is difficult to understand.
13:47Right. Yeah, I agree. And it's been talking about AI all the time here. We may talk about it later,
13:52but I don't want to turn into that right now. What I do want to talk about, Rob,
13:56is go back to the question because it is the CMO Summit. Let's talk about brands. So brands,
14:01are they buying reach at CNN or they're not? What are they buying when you're out there? What are
14:05you telling them? I mean, if we were just selling like boxes of ads or, you know, just simple,
14:13simple the way that a lot of people think of advertising, we'd have a very small business.
14:18You know, we have to really, one, go into off-platform environments. I mean, I have a six,
14:25seven persons. They're a social media agency essentially on my team, right, which is really
14:30working with branded and sponsored content and getting engagement, you know, at a margin across
14:35there. We have our brand studio, CNN Creates, which is out there telling branded content stories that
14:42live on all platforms that creates incredibly beautiful human-led content, really, because we
14:49know that certainly across social, human-led content delivers some sort of emotional response
14:53works. And then sponsorship as well, but also we diversify into events. And of course, we've
15:00launched our subscription products as well. But when they're buying, when, you know, sort of saying
15:06how diverse we have to be, but, you know, ultimately it does, I'm going to repeat myself, that trust and
15:11influence. That is what they're coming back to, right? Or in some instances, a very defined audience
15:16that they want to reach using data. And Joy, what about on your side? What are they buying? What
15:22are brands buying? I mean, are they buying reach? Are they buying influence? Are they buying trust?
15:25Are they buying page views? I mean, they're not buying page views, I'm sure. Maybe they are. I don't know.
15:29I think one thing has remained true. Advertisers are looking for premium audiences in big spaces where
15:37they can target and ultimately create outcomes. And that's something that we are really focused on
15:42delivering. We have millions of points of signal because we have these relationships and engagement
15:48and subscribers. And so we're really able to understand how to reach either readers in the
15:54right context or within the right segment based on an advertiser's goals. And so ultimately, reach is one of
16:03those things. But there are many, many, many, many components that ultimately define what our advertisers
16:08are after, which is outcomes, business outcomes. Thank you. I want to lean a little bit more into
16:13premium and what it means for each of you. Each of you building premium audiences, premium content,
16:20premium, I mean, you do great stuff. But define premium for you, the media company you work at,
16:27and what you're trying to achieve. And Elsa, I'll start with you. How do you think about premium and what
16:32it is for Brut? For me, it's more the quality of the content. It's not a platform. Usually, we think
16:40that premium is long, short format for maybe YouTube or other platforms. But it's really the quality of
16:50the content, finding new angles, new way to produce, adapt our message to be very catchy from the
16:57beginning, with new faces, new type of endorsement content. For example, for me, maybe the most premium
17:08production we had during the Cannes Festival was on TikTok.
17:12So TikTok is premium?
17:14Could be premium.
17:15Could be premium. You guys buy that? TikTok premium?
17:18Listen, for us, it's content worth paying for.
17:21Okay. So yeah, define premium for you. People paying for it, it's premium.
17:24It's a quality and differentiated content experience with an excellent product experience as well.
17:31What do you think about premium?
17:32I think if I take us out of the news industry for a second, I'll try and do this very
17:38short.
17:38But I was at the Barber's yesterday, and he's an interesting guy. Any good barber,
17:42he knows a lot about a lot of things. And he has an opinion. And I said, I'm doing this
17:46Viva Tech panel. And he's a big gamer. And he said, well, it all kicked off in the gaming
17:53community with Boulder Gate 3, which I've never heard of, when it found out they started using
17:58AI to create some of the images within Boulder Gate 3. And the whole community was frustrated
18:03because they had people. They care about the people that are making the content. They care
18:08about the quality within their environments. And they see that as their art. That's art for them.
18:15So that premium, they have a premium on that. And it very much affects the business model.
18:20And I think the same with news. Our premium is how people value us, right? And if they're putting a
18:25value against human-made content, that has been verified. They may be using AI tools. We have to use
18:30things like that. And of course, embrace these technologies. But ultimately, I think of premium
18:35human-made verified, ideally directly from the source, which is the other side. We have people
18:40there seeing it happen that are experienced all over the world. Yeah. I think a lot about AI slop and
18:46slop in general. And I've come to the conclusion that it's not slop if someone loves it. So I think
18:50it's really hard to describe what that is. I want to jump in and talk a little bit about the
18:55business
18:56models and whether it's advertising or something else and how that sits next to these premium
19:00experiences that you guys are building. Elsa, I want to start with you. You cover this really
19:04heavy stuff, protests, Gian coming to Paris a lot more. Ads aren't really your end goal at this
19:09point, although they may be part of it. What is? How do you think about what you sell and what
19:14the
19:14things that people are coming to you for from a monetization point of view?
19:19I think it's not maybe obvious, but we sell intelligence because being a social media, you
19:27engage conversation, you generate conversation. So you can gather a lot of insights and you can also
19:36predict something. So for example, sometimes we work with also these governments, the French
19:41government to do an overview on maybe on the young population in France. At that time, we just made a
19:51report last month for the French government saying that, okay, the signals are here, you can use it to
20:00define politics, etc. So the first thing they buy is intelligence, of course, then the brain, to say space,
20:07even when we have hard news, you know, protests and like that, they sell a brand and then a content.
20:15But the first thing they sell is intelligence and the trust brand.
20:23So it's intelligence about Gen Z audience and now some of the older audiences are bringing out or is it
20:28something else?
20:29Not necessarily only a Gen Z audience because we have 45 million followers in France, 21 on TikTok,
20:366 million on Instagram, 6 million on Facebook, 4 million on YouTube. So it's a global audience.
20:43But we have, we touch, we reach 100% of under 35 in France, but in Africa, in India, and
20:51we are also in
20:53America. So thanks to this kind of social conversation we generate, we can have very powerful insights.
21:03Rob, on your side, you're taking ads and you're creating all kinds of interesting content around
21:07serious news, breaking news, things that may, in some cases, are a little bit uncomfortable.
21:13Brand safety tools today say, don't go near that, run away. How do you manage that?
21:18Build your own tools.
21:19Build your own tools. Tell me about the tools that you've built. Like, what do you do?
21:22Well, I just think, I mean, I mean, obviously it's been a huge frustration for the news industry that
21:27other technologies are judging our homework and putting a value. You spoke about premium and
21:31putting a value on whether it's going to drive an outcome for an advertiser.
21:36I think there's fairness in it though, in the, of course, sometimes a brand shouldn't be next to
21:41a certain piece of content. So it's about respecting, okay, there is a challenge. So how can we go after
21:46that challenge? One is communicate, be on stages and say the importance of news and funding quality
21:51journalism and so on, and that it drives outcomes, as Joy was saying. Two is work with those technology
21:57platforms. I'm on one of the boards of one of the big companies to educate them. And they don't
22:01necessarily want that. They see it as a problem themselves. And then three is build your own tools.
22:05And, you know, six, seven years ago, we built a language model to understand the sentiment
22:10of our content, both video and text, and whether it has a positive sentiment or a negative sentiment.
22:15And we can use that to target and avoid certain content, to or target certain, avoid certain content.
22:21And it unlocks about 90% more inventory that off the shelf tools would do.
22:26So you started building that before the age of the LLM, right? How's that adapted in the LLM age?
22:30You just have to keep updating it, right? And I think that's, you know, we have a brand called
22:35CNN Aim internationally, which is our targeting tool. It launched 10 years ago, but the technology
22:39that powers it today is completely different, obviously, than it was 10 years ago. So you kind
22:42of want consistency in market and in the background, you're changing your technology.
22:46Joy, how do you think about that targeting for advertisers? I mean,
22:49if somebody doesn't want to be on page one breaking news world, they can always go to
22:52the Athletic and be in the World Cup section, right?
22:54That's right.
22:54But how do you think about how you place and how you work with some of that tension between
22:58where they might want to be, where they should be, and where they don't want to be? Try
23:02and convince them maybe they should be there.
23:04You know, it's been a really interesting, I mean, market or news avoidance is something I think
23:08we've been talking about for a very long time. And I think we've proven over and over again
23:12that actually advertising next to news does have positive outcomes for intent and other KPIs.
23:23I think what's been really interesting about the New York Times, especially as we've grown
23:27our portfolio to now include sports and games and shopping advice and cooking, many brands
23:33come in only wanting to work with sports or only wanting to work with games, and they think that
23:38they want to avoid news completely. And what we've seen is those brands who come to work with us,
23:43they may start with games, but then they become more open to the wide breadth of the news report,
23:49which includes style and travel and food. And when you add news into some of those plans,
23:55you actually are able to see increases in their performance. We've also built our own Gen AI
24:01targeted tool called Brand Match that we launched about 18 months ago that helps almost create
24:06personalized targeting mechanisms for brands based on the essence of their brief. And so it helps them,
24:14yes, target first-party audiences, be contextually relevant, but also appear in parts of the report
24:21that the Gen AI tool essentially detects, based on their brief, readers are going to be more interested
24:27in. And so that puts them in places across the report they may not have thought of wanting to be,
24:33but ultimately helps them find new audiences and enhances performance overall. So there's a lot
24:38of ways at this. Yep. Let's talk a little bit about discovery and how people find you. And I think,
24:43I don't know if search is dead or if it's not dead, but AI more and more, AI generated search
24:47results,
24:48SEO, GEO, AI, EIO, whatever you want to call it. I think we're seeing a lot of that. And the
24:54great thing
24:55for each of you in different ways is your authorities. And this generated AI search,
24:59it rewards authority and it goes out whether it's Wirecutter or whether it's CNN or whether it's
25:04Brute. It tries to find the right answers and the right people. I would love to know how you're
25:09thinking about yourselves showing up in this new generation of search and how you're helping
25:15your clients do the same thing. Rob, you want to kick that off?
25:19I would argue that there's a huge opportunity. New sites could arguably be the new search in some
25:26respects. And actually, if you ask Gemini that, I don't know what it'll say today, but I asked it
25:31the other day, what's the new, and it said, I said, could they be the gatekeepers to search in Gen
25:35AI?
25:35It said, yes, pretty much. And then it goes.
25:38Yeah, but Gen AI always lies.
25:39I know it's like, I know it lied, but it didn't know it was talking to Robert CNN.
25:41It probably did. It probably did, actually. But of course, like, you know, we know it's
25:47well-documented, you know, legal cases for both of us have things that, you know, the best content
25:53they get is from us, right? And if a brand wants to show up in that environment and they're
25:57struggling, you speak to CMOs, everyone I speak to at the moment, how are they going to show up in
26:01Gen AI to influence? And you can think about an experience. It's kind of an odds, a news site or
26:06a
26:06good user experience on web and app, for example, is actually at odds with what an agent likes in
26:11some respects. You can see a world, or I can see a world. I'm fast-forwarding, you know,
26:16where you've got a user interface here from news, but then you've got this information that talks to
26:20an agent. So you've got like a dual kind of function. I think that's, while there's untold
26:27challenges, there's a huge opportunity within that if we get it right. And if the proper value
26:33is given back to news providers, because what we're providing the world right now is we're not
26:38getting paid for it properly. Yeah. And Elsa, for you guys, in a world of AI mediation and also
26:43algorithmic mediation, because you're putting things out on TikTok and other short-form platforms
26:47as long as doing your own thing, how do you think about attention and bringing people into what you're
26:52doing in discovery in this sort of AI-mediated world? Yeah, but you said, what you said is it's
27:00a core. We do not have any search. You know, people consume brute in the feed, so they are not
27:06looking
27:06for brute news. They just consume thanks to the algorithm. So we have to understand very well the
27:14algorithm, because we don't receive the code of the algorithm every two weeks, because it's changing
27:20mostly every two weeks, actually. So we have a team all day long watching and analyzing how the
27:28algorithm are moving on TikTok, on Mecha, on YouTube, and we try to adapt the format. It's not,
27:35usually people tell me, hi, so you try to do the best format to have the best clicks or engagement
27:43or
27:43whatever. It's not to have influence. It's more to have, you know, to be relevant in the feed and to
27:51make sure that we can address the message to the agents. No offense, but I love it that the new
27:57guys
27:57also disrupted already, right? It goes back 10 years ago, it was BuzzFeed, Vice, HuffPo. We were gone then,
28:06right? You guys were done. But because they built their models just on social media,
28:13you change an algorithm, and suddenly their business model is challenged. We were talking
28:17before, you've got a fascinating model of influence, and I want to learn more about it.
28:21And Fast provides a new opportunity as well. But that's kind of the challenge we all have,
28:27is you're beholden on someone else as soon as you're in those environments.
28:29And that's exactly what I think is so important. We can talk about discoverability and the mechanism
28:35through which people are going to discover content websites creators is going to change
28:40over and over and over again. And I think that we as content creators, media owners, as brands,
28:47what needs to be true is that you continue to build direct relationships through consistency in your
28:53values, in what you deliver, in great product, in consumer-first sort of orientation. And I think
29:00that, you know, you asked before about business models. Our business model, the lifeblood of it,
29:04is engagement, is people coming directly to us and engaging with us, whether that be then they
29:10become subscribers and then they're served advertising and then they buy things off wire
29:13cutter. Thank you. But I think that it all comes down to, you know, completely relinquishing your
29:20brand equity to an LLM or search or to an algorithm puts you at risk. And I think that what
29:29we have done,
29:29maybe 10 years ago, people thought we were dead. But what we remain true is that we created content
29:35that was user-first. We remained true to our values of fact-based journalism. And ultimately,
29:41that is what, you know, has helped us thrive. And I think, again, people will change in their behaviors,
29:48but as long as they know that they can continue to rely on our brands, we will continue to have
29:53those
29:53direct relationships. So real quickly, in 20 seconds, we don't have much, but real quickly,
29:57each of you, everyone's a media company these days. We all know our journalists are leaving to
30:01build their own. I've done it myself. What do you say when one of your journalists wants to go off
30:06and
30:06build their own sub stack? Listen, I think that journalists come to New York Times to do their best
30:11work. It gives them access to the entirety of the New York Times newsroom. You hear something like the
30:17Daily. They're calling on our experts internally. I think if there is a desire to go out and build your
30:23own thing, that is essentially what you have the opportunity to do. But ultimately, the New York
30:28Times is something that gives you distribution and access. Rob, what do you say? I'd flip it and say,
30:34if you want to be a journalist, you should absolutely be using these tools. If you want to end up
30:38working
30:38for Brute or CNN or New York Times, you have the tools to go out and do your own journalism
30:42now.
30:42So if you want to work for one of the companies that does exactly what Joy was saying, you should
30:47be out there learning and doing this stuff now. And Joy, one of your creators wants to go, one of
30:51your people wants to go out and build a whole AI-generated thing. What do you say?
30:55Go for it, you know. Go for it. We'll be here for you when you need this. All right. Thank
31:01you very
31:01much, Joy, Rob, Elsa. Give it up for them. Thank you, guys. Thanks to Viva Tech. Enjoy the rest of
31:06the day.