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A look at the Brighton bombing of 1984, with new testimony from many of those affected.
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00:00:04Well, sadly, we start breakfast time today with the news that early this morning, a major bomb
00:00:08explosion rocked the Brighton Hotel, where Mrs. Thatcher and other Conservative leaders are
00:00:13staying. The IRA bomb killed five, injured 33, and all but killed Mrs. Thatcher and senior members
00:00:20of her government. Over the last 12 years, the IRA's attacks on mainland Britain have claimed
00:00:25over 80 lives and caused more than 1,000 injuries. Their targets have been chosen to cause maximum
00:00:30psychological damage, hitting favorite shopping haunts or military and political figures.
00:01:08It was the perfect target, absolutely the perfect target. We were always thinking in terms of how we would hit
00:01:16the British establishment. We were talking about those in government or their financiers, supporters, administrators,
00:01:26all of that we'd regarded as legitimate targets.
00:01:40I knew when the bomb was going off, but I had no means of knowing that it had gone off
00:01:46until the next morning.
00:01:48Did you manage to sleep that night?
00:01:51Fitfully. Not really, no.
00:01:55Why?
00:01:57Well, in anticipation that it would be discovered at the last minute or, you know, it wouldn't go off. Worse
00:02:04still, it wouldn't go off.
00:02:05You know, that you'd messed up and the connection wouldn't have been made.
00:02:12And that'd be your fault?
00:02:13It would be completely my fault. We'd never get another opportunity like that again.
00:02:43When it's all over, you really begin to realize the enormity of what happened.
00:02:50In church on Sunday morning, the sun was just coming to the stained glass windows and falling on some flowers
00:02:56right across the church.
00:02:59And it just occurred to me that this was the day I was meant not to see.
00:03:13Is this the right way round?
00:03:15Yes, you'll be on the left.
00:03:20See if this takes you back into the spirit of Brighton.
00:03:23Could you tap the space bar?
00:03:28Oh God, I reckon this is the finest, in my opinion, this is the finest nine mile promenade in Europe.
00:03:36This is in Europe.
00:03:40Does this look familiar?
00:03:42Yes, it is.
00:03:44False tea.
00:03:47My father was a clergyman in Brighton, so I knew the town quite well.
00:03:51Of course, when you're small, you love the whole concept of rock and the rest of it.
00:04:16Well, the Conservative Party conference opens in Brighton later this morning.
00:04:20Our papers reviewer is Conservative Party chairman John Gummer, who joins us in Brighton.
00:04:25Fine weather is it with you today?
00:04:26Well, I don't think I've looked at the weather terribly much so far this morning, but I can hear it
00:04:30outside.
00:04:30It doesn't sound terribly fine.
00:04:43Now, can I warn you?
00:04:44I cry all the time.
00:04:46I am pathetic.
00:04:47So, if I do, please stop.
00:04:49Of course.
00:04:50Of course, of course.
00:04:52Where's my...
00:04:53Darling, where's this hopping up and down?
00:04:56There's always so much on.
00:04:58I'm exactly saying we've thrown pictures, but without the teapot.
00:05:01That's right.
00:05:06How long ago did you meet?
00:05:08We've been married for 47 years, so it must be 50 years ago.
00:05:13It's 50 years ago now.
00:05:16Yeah.
00:05:16It's 50 years.
00:05:16Later this year.
00:05:18Forgot about me just to look up.
00:05:22Can we have you both looking mad, I don't know.
00:05:25I think...
00:05:26It was...
00:05:27We both thought it was so silly.
00:05:29Yeah, we did.
00:05:31I always choose this day when the sun's setting to take costumes by the sea.
00:05:37Everybody had their wives or husbands there, and they all knew each other too.
00:05:44As we would rush from one party to the next, we'd cross and re-cross, everybody trying to get to
00:05:50everything.
00:05:50We'd say, oh, hi.
00:05:52See you in a minute.
00:05:53Right.
00:05:53And it was all just jovial.
00:05:59It is a great pleasure to introduce our principal guest this evening, the Prime Minister, the Right Honourable Margaret Clapton.
00:06:14The conference was one in which no one ever had said that this was a moment in which we had
00:06:25to be particularly careful.
00:06:27We always were careful.
00:06:29That was part of what you did.
00:06:31But I can't say that there was any circumstance in which police had said, this is a very special occasion.
00:06:38We've had warnings and such like.
00:06:41Looking back, perhaps we should have.
00:07:00In the last year, and especially in the last few weeks, there's been a very dramatic and very real revival
00:07:06in the IRA's savage role in Irish politics.
00:07:10Bomb explosions have been shattering property and lives.
00:07:27I was living in Unity Flats, which was a very small Catholic enclave right at the start of the entrance
00:07:37to Loyalist West Belfast, the Shankill Road.
00:07:42It really did feel like we were occupied and we were having to defend ourselves.
00:07:51Things that were happening that the British Army were doing in our district, it was doing on people I knew.
00:07:56And those people had been killed.
00:07:57And then you were a witness to the incidents, you know.
00:08:02My understanding of it was that we were in a real war situation in the fight against the British Army.
00:08:17We knew who our enemy was, you know, because they were pointing guns at us.
00:08:22And they were sent over by politicians to point those guns at us.
00:08:44The argument that terrorists always have
00:08:48is that they are forced to do what they're doing because of the incipient violence which has been played on
00:08:57them for generations or for previous times.
00:09:01I don't think that justifies doing what the IRA was doing.
00:09:07I mean, it is wicked to kill people.
00:09:11It is wicked to blow people up.
00:09:14It is wicked to leave bombs so that they could kill anybody without any kind of, that's wicked.
00:09:26The turning point for me was being arrested in 1972.
00:09:32They were scooping every young male nationalist at some point and bringing in and questioning them
00:09:40and building up a dossier of information, an overview of the district.
00:09:46They used to call it going for your tea.
00:09:48You're coming with us for your tea.
00:09:49I'd imagine you were going there.
00:09:52Suddenly it became my turn.
00:09:57They had something called the black room.
00:09:59Funny enough, it's similar to this, except a lot shorter.
00:10:04And it had no roof on it.
00:10:06It was like a port-a-cabin without a roof.
00:10:08But when I was there, I would have been manhandled, you know, beaten up.
00:10:13You know, it shocked me.
00:10:14It scared me, I think.
00:10:17I said, no, I've got to do something about this.
00:10:19I'm not going to let them get away with this.
00:10:21You know, I'm not just going to be a victim here.
00:10:23And so I did make a push and join the IRA.
00:10:26I never for a moment thought, though, that I'd be in the IRA decades later, you know.
00:10:33This man has an insight into the IRA's military thinking.
00:10:37He's Danny Morrison of the IRA's political wing, Provisional Sinn Féin.
00:10:42It's dead simple. People are complicated.
00:10:45Britain has no right to be here.
00:10:47End of story.
00:10:48But they must know that when they were here and when they were acting aggressively
00:10:53and shooting us down in the streets, there was going to be a price to be paid.
00:10:57Why bomb England?
00:10:59Well, obviously, there's no saying that one bomb in England is worth a hundred in Ireland.
00:11:04And that is true.
00:11:06Because we've seen that whenever people are killed in Ireland, it gets minimal coverage on British news.
00:11:11But a small bomb in London gets coverage all over.
00:11:20I've seen this sort of thing so many times before in Northern Ireland.
00:11:24It doesn't amaze me.
00:11:25Perhaps I think the people in Great Britain, as to say, Scotland and Wales and England, will now understand what
00:11:34they see here.
00:11:35What's been happening all these years in Northern Ireland.
00:11:40Now take us into the perspective of a young man like Patrick McGee, who decided to join the IRA.
00:11:48I can't remember what year he began working for me.
00:11:51He worked on the Fublock, the public news.
00:11:55I was the editor.
00:11:57Pat was brilliant at graphic design and brilliant at crosswords.
00:12:02But a very quiet, intense, you know, deep thinker.
00:12:09I mean, a true asset to the Republican struggle.
00:12:14You know, before you joined, do you sort of have an internal thought process which asks questions about what you'll
00:12:21be willing and not willing to do?
00:12:24Well, I can't remember a time when everything was sort of pre-figured out.
00:12:28You know, there was a constant turnover of personnel, people being arrested or having to go on the run or
00:12:34being killed.
00:12:35There was a high turnover in engineers, as we would call them, you know, people who were handy with explosives.
00:12:43And suddenly, I mean, it was down to me to fill in, to fill the gap.
00:12:49This was engineers, people that make bombs?
00:12:53Mm-hmm.
00:12:55I was good at making them.
00:12:57I guess you can say I became proficient.
00:13:01It's an attitude, I think, more than anything else.
00:13:03It's about being grounded, being careful, thinking things through.
00:13:09The circuitry involved is very basic.
00:13:12It's so basic, it has to be very simple.
00:13:15You're talking about rigging an alarm clock up, you know, with a wire and a battery attached to it, and
00:13:22then to a detonator.
00:13:22And the arm comes round, makes contact, the bomb goes off, you know, a great circuit is created.
00:13:30That was put into a bargain, you or somebody else would be carrying that into a building.
00:13:43Reserve police officers from the Metropolitan Force have been drafted into Brighton this week to help the Sussex Police cope
00:13:49with a Tory party conference.
00:13:50So how tight is the security surrounding the conference?
00:13:56I would defend anybody's right to have Republican views.
00:14:01They can have whatever views they want, it's a democracy.
00:14:04But when the killing starts, that's where you draw the line.
00:14:09Because I was Northern Irish, I was always sent into the Irish pubs.
00:14:16When you go into a pub, you walk in with your head down, your eyes towards the floor, you go
00:14:24straight to the bar, and you have a pint, preferably Guinness.
00:14:31Our job was to build up intelligence, which then led to evidence, which then led to convictions.
00:14:38So you were fishing, anything, any intelligence, huge pressure on the police.
00:14:46Margaret Thatcher was surrounded by a protection team at all times.
00:14:51There would have been sniffer dogs, there would have been a search of the hotel, so it would have been
00:14:57declared safe.
00:15:01They would have spoken to the anti-terrorist squad, do you know of anything?
00:15:04They would have spoken with Special Branch in London, who would have liaised with the Garda and the RUC.
00:15:10And if there was any whispers, they would say, oh, we think there's a threat to Thatcher.
00:15:17But there were no whispers.
00:15:21There is a special atmosphere to the conference hotel at a Tory conference.
00:15:25It's part cocktail party, part sounding board for gossip, rumour, flattery, even character assassination.
00:15:32What will Mrs. Thatcher say on the subject when tomorrow she makes her tenth conference speech as party leader?
00:15:37She's come a long way in that time.
00:15:46You see, it's duller. It's duller.
00:15:54But it's much better.
00:15:57Not too close.
00:16:02Yes, that's marvellous.
00:16:05It's different altogether.
00:16:15It's fairly safe to say that you were quite close to Mrs. Thatcher at the time.
00:16:19Yes, of course.
00:16:22The great thing was that once Mrs. Thatcher knew you were loyal, she enjoyed a good argument.
00:16:27And we used to have very good arguments late into the night.
00:16:32It's just nerves. You either sniff or you swallow or you gulp.
00:16:37At that time, the Tory party was in the doldrums, the government wasn't very good, and there was a sogginess
00:16:46about politics which she was determined to put right.
00:16:51I think we all know in our hearts, it's time for a change.
00:17:06There was no mistaking the feeling that election fever is definitely in the air.
00:17:11I'm just a little bit worried about the mornings and the provincials.
00:17:14Can I say that?
00:17:26Someone's been killed in Bommack, but I can't talk to you.
00:17:29Just now, seven minutes ago, I must tell you.
00:17:32We don't know you have.
00:17:33Terrible news, this is that.
00:17:35I don't know about it yet.
00:17:38All we know is there's one dead.
00:17:41I'll talk to you later.
00:17:43I'll talk to you later.
00:17:44I'll talk to you later.
00:17:46I'll talk to you later.
00:17:48I'll talk to you later.
00:17:49I'll talk to you later.
00:17:54I'll talk to you later.
00:18:02At precisely the time the explosion occurred, Mrs. Thatcher was seven miles away in North London.
00:18:07She'd just made a speech about courage and compassion.
00:18:12When Mrs. Thatcher was given the news, nobody knew that the victim was one of her closest friends.
00:18:20How did the assassination of Aerie Neve affect Mrs. Thatcher, do you think?
00:18:27Oh, she was devastated, of course.
00:18:29Devastated not only because of her friendship with him, but because of the nearness that this brought the whole thing.
00:18:38Aerie was a person of such rare qualities, but no one knew that better than I.
00:18:46If ever you were in difficulty, there he was.
00:18:49And just one more thing.
00:18:52Some devils built him.
00:18:55They must never, never, never be allowed to triumph.
00:18:59They must never prevail.
00:19:00Those of us who believe in the things that Aerie fought for will see that our views are the ones
00:19:07which continue to live on in this country.
00:19:10She had total commitment to destroying this evil.
00:19:16An historic day for Britain.
00:19:18Mrs. Thatcher is now set to become Britain's first woman prime minister as well as the first in the Western
00:19:24world.
00:19:25In the words of Aerie Neve, whom we had hoped to bring here with us, there is now work to
00:19:32be done.
00:19:41Well, the real powerhouse of the place is the secretary's room under the leadership of Robin Butler, who's my principal
00:19:47private secretary.
00:19:49They're absolutely marvellous.
00:19:52Goodness me, when did she say that?
00:19:54You're absolutely marvellous.
00:19:56Yes, sir. Well, glad she thought so.
00:20:00My name is Robin Butler. I was a career civil servant and I was head of Margaret Thatcher's office in
00:20:0910 Downing Street.
00:20:11Margaret Thatcher was physically demanding and one didn't get a lot of rest or sleep.
00:20:21Yes, okay. So, Margot, the PM's got a few minutes between meetings now.
00:20:27So, if you could take some work after her in the red box.
00:20:31I can't say that I found her easy personally.
00:20:36She was not the sort of person I would have wanted to go on holiday with.
00:20:49I believe that social security payments to strikers' families should be abolished.
00:20:56And that unions should pay the cost of policing their own picket lines.
00:21:02I thought the debate on law and order was just a little too very key for my taste.
00:21:06I'd like something a little more stronger.
00:21:09Did you foresee the strength of character that Mrs. Thatcher had?
00:21:14Oh, she was obviously remarkable. I mean, let's be absolutely clear about that.
00:21:19She had to do a whole series of very tough things.
00:21:25And she had to show people that she was not, as you know, the lady's not for turning.
00:21:31On the Falklands, she was not going to be turned on the IRA.
00:21:34She had a real understanding that once you'd set your hand to it, you had to stick with it.
00:21:44Do you remember Thatcher getting elected?
00:21:47I do, yeah.
00:21:52Believe it or not, there was even part of the thought, well, it's a woman.
00:21:55You know, not necessarily politics, but in itself it's innovative, you know.
00:22:00It's progress at a certain level, you know.
00:22:03Might make a difference.
00:22:09Margaret Thatcher was rather like a boxer who gets hit and gets knocked back onto the ropes.
00:22:18But their reaction is not to lean against the ropes, but immediately to come out and hit back.
00:22:32Margaret Thatcher's demand is for political status, which means that they expect the government to treat them differently from other
00:22:40prisons because they allege a political motive for their crime.
00:22:44Margaret Thatcher Faced now with the failure of their discredited cause, the men of violence have chosen in recent months
00:22:52to play what may well be their last card.
00:22:58Now, Bobby Sands, the hunger striker and newly elected MP, is thought to have no more than a few days
00:23:04to live.
00:23:05The three Irish MPs who saw him yesterday have said he's determined to die unless the demands of the maize
00:23:11prisoners are met.
00:23:12Margaret Thatcher Well, now, Danny Morrison, you are Bobby Sands' own nominated spokesman up there in Belfast.
00:23:17Margaret Thatcher Does this now, do you think, mean that Mr. Sands will either have to give in or to
00:23:22go ahead and die?
00:23:25Danny Morrison I would say, I probably think about the hunger strikers every day.
00:23:32And it's, what, 42 years now? 43 years.
00:23:39My son's offered his life for better conditions in prison but not cause further death outside. That's all I can
00:23:47say.
00:23:47How is he today?
00:23:49Big style.
00:23:54The hunger striker lasted for seven months. Seven months. For those seven months, we, our office was open 24 hours
00:24:01a day. We slept on the floor.
00:24:03This is an H-Block collection. We ask you to give as kindly as you can.
00:24:09Thatcher, in particular, was so intransigent. She had opportunities after opportunities to resolve it.
00:24:16I asked the Prime Minister whether the government's policy of no concessions to the H-Block campaigners meant she was
00:24:22prepared to see an endless stream of hunger strikers die.
00:24:25That is a matter for those who go on hunger strike and those who are encouraging them to do so.
00:24:32I will not give political status or special category status to people who are in fact criminals and who are
00:24:39the enemies of society.
00:24:42She was winning and she was determined. She knew that the one thing she had to deal with was the
00:24:51terrorism.
00:24:52They saw her as intolerably tough and, therefore, as somebody who really didn't understand.
00:25:03But, of course, there was nothing to understand. She killed people. She killed people.
00:25:13We were on our way up to wisdom. Then we got word that he had died.
00:25:18Yeah.
00:25:21What was the last communication that you had from your brother, the last message?
00:25:27I talked to him yesterday. He said he would end his hunger strike after the British government would grant the
00:25:35five demands.
00:25:37Feeling that, he says, I believe I will die.
00:25:54We knew the prisoners.
00:25:58Joe MacDonald, who died.
00:26:00Joe MacDonald's wife's mother delivered me. I was born at home in Corbyways. He delivered me.
00:26:05Joe and I were interned together in the 1970s. Ciarán Dougherty, who died on hunger strike.
00:26:11Ciarán was in a class below me in Glenville CBS. His brother, Michael, sat behind me in class in that
00:26:17school.
00:26:18So we were all very, very, very close.
00:26:22And when a hunger striker died, it was your brother who died. It was awful.
00:26:36Sorry.
00:26:44There was a definite concentration of thought after the hunger strike.
00:26:53There was a real visceral need felt by many to, you know, respond to where the trauma would all come
00:27:00through during that period.
00:27:16I wasn't at all political. You know, I was a little bit kind of, oh, we just need to love,
00:27:22you know, like meditate.
00:27:23And I didn't tackle like the real issues around that time.
00:27:28I do remember the hunger striking time and being horrified that Maggie Thatcher refused to listen to them.
00:27:37That really shook me.
00:27:41Around that time, my cousin Diana would have got engaged and married Prince Charles.
00:27:51And I didn't even go to the wedding because the life I was having felt more real.
00:27:58I spent a couple of years in the Himalayas.
00:28:01I lived without running water, without electric, very simply.
00:28:06And you've seen that one a million times, I'm sure, have you?
00:28:09Oh.
00:28:12That's how I lived.
00:28:14Look how happy.
00:28:18I thought change happened through inner change.
00:28:22I lived in peacetime and I was safe.
00:28:24And it never occurred to me that I'd be affected by a bomb.
00:28:33You're looking straight into that one, aren't you?
00:28:36Yes.
00:28:37It's just that at my age, your neck shows your age.
00:28:41Yes.
00:28:42Heavens.
00:28:46Someone once said to me that I had my face lifted.
00:28:48I said it hadn't dropped yet, but the neck's...
00:28:54Margaret Thatcher was well in our sights at that stage.
00:28:58You were looking for where she was available.
00:29:02And the conferences were a natural one.
00:29:06So can you walk me through how you did it?
00:29:10No, I won't talk at all about any of the operational detail of that, of the Brighton operation.
00:29:23What can you say?
00:29:24Can you tell me that you put the bomb three weeks beforehand in the room?
00:29:31I'm not too sure how long it was before.
00:29:34It was certainly more than two weeks.
00:29:36I think two and a half weeks.
00:29:37It might have been three weeks.
00:29:39But I don't want to say any more.
00:29:42But the idea was that you could plant the bomb and leave.
00:29:46Exactly.
00:29:47You know, the thing was secreted and you're away from the scene.
00:29:51I ended up down in the County Cork.
00:29:58My concern would have been just to keep off saying...
00:30:03I couldn't afford to be arrested.
00:30:05I was under no illusion.
00:30:06If I get caught, I'm going down for 20 years.
00:30:09And as it gets nearer and nearer...
00:30:14the...
00:30:15you know, the time...
00:30:18It's taken down, yeah.
00:30:35...
00:30:37My name is Leslie Brett.
00:30:39I was working as a Sales Manager in the Pink Coconut nightclub and discotheque in Brighton.
00:30:48Brighton was like a huge fun palace.
00:30:51there was nothing bad might have been lots of things naughty about Brighton
00:30:55the most scary thing we had was the ghost train on the pier that wasn't very scary
00:31:02we would have extended a welcome to any politicians that were attending the conference
00:31:08it was a busy night this I was busy it was let your hair down night the dance floor was
00:31:14packed
00:31:14I remember that because we were standing up at the top gallery leaning over sort of trying to
00:31:19pick out if there was anybody that we recognized but I do remember a lot of tuxedos and I do
00:31:25remember a lot of lovely dresses and ladies made up with their jewels that were obviously not normal
00:31:30pink coconut clients they were there to enjoy themselves in the evening after putting in I
00:31:37presume quite a hard day at the political conference
00:31:47my name is Edward Berry my father was Anthony Berry
00:31:53my father was at the conference
00:31:57he was deputy chief whip so he would have been there in a professional capacity
00:32:02would your father have considered himself a target
00:32:05no my father would not have considered himself a target
00:32:10I think a lot of these politicians of that era came in wanting to do good
00:32:16I'm under no illusion plenty of them like the idea of becoming powerful
00:32:19and my father wasn't one of those
00:32:23so this is a this is a photograph taken I think from 1964
00:32:29this is my father's campaign to be elected member of parliament for Southgate
00:32:35what he did was arrive with these four kids
00:32:38with little badges that said vote for daddy
00:32:41well why would you not
00:32:44you have me at the front
00:32:46we have my elder sister Alexandra
00:32:48we have
00:32:50Anya
00:32:51and
00:32:52Joe
00:32:54I remember just being very proud that I was asking people to vote for my daddy
00:32:59who was so special to me
00:33:04the night before the bomb went off my father invited me to dinner
00:33:08he was enthusiastic he was positive we obviously had conversations about my life
00:33:15I was very excited about the new job that I was starting and he was very proud of that
00:33:20we then walked back
00:33:23to the hotel
00:33:25to the grand hotel
00:33:28I said goodnight to him
00:33:32my last memory
00:33:34of my father
00:33:35is a man walking away from me
00:33:38full height
00:33:39he was a tall man 6 foot 4
00:33:41in a you know
00:33:42a happy man
00:33:48everyone is a friend here
00:33:49you can recognize an enemy
00:33:51said one MP
00:33:52by the warmth of their greeting
00:33:54the insincerity of that kind is very calculated
00:33:56but there's a further element to the atmosphere
00:33:59for at this very moment
00:34:01Mrs Thatcher and her closest advisors
00:34:03are closeted upstairs
00:34:04working on her conference speech tomorrow
00:34:08what were you doing on the night of the 11th?
00:34:10well we went off to all the things together as one did
00:34:14and then I went to bed
00:34:18and John went to the prime minister's suite
00:34:21to put the finishing touches to her speech
00:34:26for Margaret Thatcher
00:34:27the whole week had been taken up with preparing this speech
00:34:31I was sitting in this chair in Margaret Thatcher's suite
00:34:35hoping that the evening would end as soon as possible
00:34:39we were finishing off the speech
00:34:41doing the odd bits and pieces
00:34:42there wasn't much more to do
00:34:43and so it was at that point
00:34:45that I left her room
00:34:47to the room opposite
00:34:50Pink Coconut closed at 2 o'clock
00:34:53of course there would be a kind of 10 minutes
00:34:55shuffling the last people
00:34:56out onto the street for their cabs
00:34:59and I suppose by the time we left there
00:35:01it must have been about 10 to 3
00:35:04there was a document
00:35:06on which the office wanted a decision
00:35:10from the prime minister
00:35:11by first thing next morning
00:35:13and she said
00:35:15if you don't mind
00:35:16I'd like to look at it and deal with it now
00:35:19I was sort of just dozing off to sleep I think
00:35:23or had just gone to sleep
00:35:24we were probably about 20 yards shy
00:35:27of the corner of West Street
00:35:28we crossed at the traffic lights
00:35:30I was tired
00:35:31almost sleepy
00:35:34everybody else had left her sitting room
00:35:37and she was going through this document
00:36:03I've never heard such a loud explosion in my life
00:36:09the ground trembled
00:36:10the way it would do with an earthquake
00:36:12I presume
00:36:13my immediate thought was gas explosion
00:36:16I thought a gas boiler had gone up
00:36:20I heard this humongous noise
00:36:23dreadful, dreadful noise
00:36:25and I somehow knew it must be a bomb
00:36:31there was a second bang
00:36:33which we thought was another bomb
00:36:37actually evidently
00:36:38it was that the roof had been lifted off
00:36:40and it came down again
00:36:41and therefore made this second bang
00:36:44and then there was silence
00:36:47I thought that John and Mrs Thatcher
00:36:50and Robin Butler were all lying in a sticky mess
00:36:55I thought to myself
00:36:57that's a bomb
00:36:58what should I do
00:37:00here I am alone with the prime minister
00:37:01and it's no doubt aimed at her
00:37:04I said
00:37:05get down on the floor
00:37:07so we all got down on the floor
00:37:08I don't know quite what
00:37:09we were supposed to be doing in that
00:37:11but it seemed to be the sensible thing to do
00:37:13so we all fell onto the floor
00:37:15I was on my knees
00:37:17opened the door like this
00:37:18and looked round the corner
00:37:21and on the other side
00:37:23I saw Mrs Thatcher's head
00:37:25come round the corner
00:37:26looking at me
00:37:28by this time a policeman appeared
00:37:30and we moved them into a room
00:37:32at the end of the corridor
00:37:34Margaret Thatcher broke away
00:37:36and went to the reception desk
00:37:37and she said
00:37:38was everybody accounted for
00:37:39and then we were taken
00:37:41out of the back of the hotel
00:37:42where there was a car waiting
00:37:50I then
00:37:51got on with my own business
00:37:53which was
00:37:54what on earth
00:37:54had happened to Penny
00:37:55the bomb was over there
00:37:56I was
00:37:57sure that she
00:37:58must be dead
00:37:59because
00:38:00that was where
00:38:01the sound came from
00:38:09the whole thing
00:38:10was just enveloped
00:38:10in this huge
00:38:11thick cloud of dust
00:38:14I could hear
00:38:15masonry falling
00:38:16I could hear
00:38:17metal scraping
00:38:18and people screaming
00:38:20which was the most
00:38:22dreadful
00:38:23dreadful thing
00:38:24it was just such a shock
00:38:27but I saw
00:38:28out the corner of my eye
00:38:30blue and white lights
00:38:31just like
00:38:32angels
00:38:32there was no noise
00:38:33no noise of engines
00:38:34heavy road trucks
00:38:36no sirens
00:38:38just blue and white lights
00:38:39flashing like little angels
00:38:40coming along
00:38:41and that was the fire service
00:38:43bless their hearts
00:38:44and from then on
00:38:45it was just
00:38:45total misery
00:38:46the fire Bomb
00:38:48and from then on
00:38:48it was just a shock
00:38:49and the fire
00:38:52that's just a shock
00:38:52and what the fire
00:39:04is
00:39:05I'm not
00:39:06I'm not
00:39:10I'm not
00:39:12I'm not
00:39:13I'm not
00:39:13I'm not
00:39:14I'm not
00:39:14I'm not
00:39:16I'm not
00:39:22I ran out of our room, and there was dust coming everywhere.
00:39:32It was a very big stairwell at the Grand Hotel, and I suddenly saw this figure.
00:39:41I was covered in this white stuff that had all come down from the plaster,
00:39:46and so the very first thing I heard was,
00:39:48Have you seen John?
00:39:50And he said, It's me.
00:39:52So that was all right then.
00:39:55And how did you feel?
00:39:57Well, I... I'm just hugged her, that's all.
00:40:01I did feel it was the most amazing moment.
00:40:04And then, of course, you came back to reality.
00:40:12For Christ's sake, go away!
00:40:20As dawn broke, firemen were still searching what was left of Brighton's once Grand Hotel.
00:40:30The firemen are now getting close to Mr. Tebbit.
00:40:33He's in a crouching position, with the rubble of his room more or less on his back.
00:40:43Remember the extraordinary feeling of being bundled hurly-burly in the midst of a mass of debris until one came
00:40:50to a rest.
00:40:54You were trapped for four hours, weren't you?
00:40:56Yes.
00:40:57But you were able to reach over to your wife's hand.
00:41:00Yes, that's right.
00:41:01The weight of the debris had doubled her over, and we think probably it was not so much that the
00:41:09spine was damaged as the blood supply was cut off.
00:41:18Right away, please.
00:41:20Right away.
00:41:20Prime Minister, could you tell us how you are, please?
00:41:22Very well, thank you very much.
00:41:23Our worry is whether there's anyone under that rubble, because I don't know whether you've seen it, but it's pretty
00:41:30awful.
00:41:31You hear about these atrocities, these bombs.
00:41:34You don't expect them to happen to you.
00:41:40But life must go on, as usual.
00:41:41And your conference will go on.
00:41:43The conference will go on.
00:41:44The conference, all right, all right, John, the conference will go on, as usual.
00:41:50Thank you, Prime Minister.
00:41:51Right, thank you.
00:41:51I should be sorry.
00:42:09A very good morning to you.
00:42:10It's now 6.30 on Friday, October the 12th.
00:42:14Well, sadly, we start breakfast time today with the news that early this morning, a major bomb explosion rocked the
00:42:19Brighton Hotel, where Mrs. Thatcher and other Conservative leaders are staying.
00:42:23The Prime Minister escaped unhurt, but tragically, two people were killed and 27 were injured.
00:42:32Tell me about hearing the morning news bulletin.
00:42:37Well, I think the first report was that a bomb had gone off and that two people had been killed.
00:42:43And that's all I needed to know, that it had gone off.
00:42:46I know this will sound crass and all of that.
00:42:49Then I slept.
00:42:50Then I slept.
00:43:01On the 12th of October, the phone rang at probably about 6 in the morning.
00:43:08And it was my sister, Jo.
00:43:12And she said, is Dad okay?
00:43:15So I said, I don't know what you mean.
00:43:19She said, well, there's been a bomb at the Grand.
00:43:24I walked along, and the first thing I encountered was the Metropole Hotel.
00:43:30I went into a room full of people covered in dust, a lot of people still in nightwear, pajamas, dressing
00:43:37gowns.
00:43:38I found myself looking for my father.
00:43:44At about half past seven in the morning, Margaret Thatcher appeared.
00:43:49I said to her, Prime Minister, I'm afraid it's much worse than we first thought.
00:43:55And she didn't hesitate for a moment.
00:43:57And she said, well, the conference is due to begin again at 9.30, and at 9.30 we must
00:44:02start.
00:44:03And I was incredulous.
00:44:04I said, this terrible thing has happened.
00:44:08Some of your closest colleagues have been killed, others seriously injured, the rescue's still going on.
00:44:15You can't mean to go on with a party political conference, can you?
00:44:24Maggie Thatcher started the conference.
00:44:27And I remember we were looking to see if Dad was there, if somehow maybe he'd got in without us
00:44:32noticing.
00:44:35I mean, we were glued to the TV to see what was happening.
00:44:42But unlike everyone else, we weren't watching unemotionally.
00:44:48We were, that was our dad we were looking for.
00:44:54That waiting is probably the hardest waiting ever.
00:45:03This is not good news.
00:45:05This is, this is all wrong.
00:45:08I've not heard anything.
00:45:26When we arrived, it was utter chaos.
00:45:31Ambulances, fire brigade turning up, more police officers screaming.
00:45:37I mean, all bomb scenes have this expectation of picking up body parts, being faced with very gruesome scenes.
00:45:52But at the time, you're not affected as such.
00:45:55It's something that hits later.
00:45:57To pick up a body part, put it, it's an exhibit.
00:46:01It's part of the crime scene.
00:46:08It was a stage where everyone had been accounted for, except one particular individual who had been on the sixth
00:46:17floor.
00:46:20And we went to that area.
00:46:21It was in a wardrobe, buried under rubble.
00:46:25And that's where we recovered the last body.
00:46:29And I would say that I've held the anger and the anguish of that ever since.
00:46:39I remember going into a pub in Cork City itself.
00:46:45The TV would have had huge coverage of the bomb.
00:46:49And I just tried to pick up the mood around the bar, you know.
00:46:54There was a lot of giggling and, you know, it went down well.
00:46:59And that sounds terrible.
00:47:00But it did.
00:47:01I mean, it was popular.
00:47:03For a lot of people, it was revenge.
00:47:06It was felt as revenge, us getting one back.
00:47:10In Belfast, it would have been jubilation in our areas.
00:47:13Absolute jubilation.
00:47:15That raised people's hope that we would prevail.
00:47:19Are you also feeling, shit, I did that.
00:47:22I caused that pain.
00:47:24No.
00:47:26Or I should be a hypocrite.
00:47:28We were there to do that.
00:47:30You know, the five people killed and those injured.
00:47:34I think it was about 30-odd people injured.
00:47:38I wouldn't have felt beyond the label I'd apply to them, you know.
00:47:43There were Tories in conference.
00:47:45That was good enough.
00:47:46That justified it.
00:47:49What was your personal reaction to the bomb having gone off in Brighton?
00:47:53Well, now that I'm old, you know, I find it the tragedy of death to be terrible.
00:48:01Worse looking back.
00:48:02But at the time, to be honest, I probably regret that the IRA didn't kill her.
00:48:22The bomb attack on the Grand Hotel early this morning was first and foremost
00:48:30an inhuman, undiscriminating attempt to massacre innocent, unsuspecting men and women
00:48:40staying in Brighton for our conservative conference.
00:48:46And the fact that we are gathered here now, shocked, but composed and determined, is a sign
00:48:56not only that this attack has failed, but that all attempts to destroy democracy by terrorism
00:49:04will fail.
00:49:07She showed no weakness at all.
00:49:10These were her friends.
00:49:12These were people she'd worked with.
00:49:15These were people whom she cared about.
00:49:18And yet she knew she had to be above that.
00:49:22She put on a brave face, as you would expect afterwards.
00:49:26But there's no doubt in my mind that she knew that the hunger strikers, the comrades of the
00:49:33hunger strikers, could reach her.
00:49:37This government will not weaken.
00:49:41This nation will meet that challenge.
00:49:45Democracy will prevail.
00:49:56They cheered and stamped their feet for more than seven and a half minutes.
00:50:15And that's the shattered hulk of the Grand Hotel Brighton until early this morning, the
00:50:20most stylish of settings for a party in power at its conference.
00:50:23Now it's evidence of the most murderous attempt on the lives of an entire British cabinet there's
00:50:28ever been.
00:50:29It didn't take long today for someone to take responsibility, and that was the provisional
00:50:33IRA.
00:50:34A statement from Dublin this morning had a chill ring to it.
00:50:37Today we were unlucky.
00:50:39But remember, we only have to be lucky once.
00:50:42You will have to be lucky always.
00:50:44Give Ireland peace and there will be no war.
00:50:48The first victim of that bomb to be named this evening was Anthony Berry, MP for Enfield,
00:50:53Southgate.
00:51:01As it happens, my father wore a signet ring, and he gave me the same ring which I wear.
00:51:10He gave it to me when I was 21.
00:51:13And someone said, well, perhaps we can use this to identify.
00:51:16So they took my ring away.
00:51:20My brother rings from a call box.
00:51:23They'd found his body, and he'd identified the body with his own signet ring.
00:51:31This is the moment we all had sort of been dreading, but there was a certain inevitability that
00:51:36we knew that my father had died.
00:51:42I just had to get out of the house.
00:51:45So I'm walking down the road with my hand going up and down, and I didn't care what people
00:51:51were thinking of me.
00:51:51I was just going, dad's dead, dad's dead.
00:51:54I've just got to realize this, dad's dead.
00:51:56My dad's dead.
00:51:57He's been killed.
00:51:57He's dead.
00:51:58I remember a builder high up on a building looking down at me and going, come on, love,
00:52:05give us a smile.
00:52:06It can't be that bad.
00:52:08And I looked up and I said, it is, my dad's been killed.
00:52:13A memorial service was held in London for Sir Anthony Berry, the Conservative MP who was
00:52:18killed in the Brighton bombing.
00:52:21The pain was like nothing I'd ever experienced before.
00:52:25I was waning, I was screaming, and I was like, how am I going to recover?
00:52:30And I thought I was going to die in the depth of the emotions that I had.
00:52:36It was too much.
00:52:37Pain was too much.
00:52:42The me that I've talked about, the free spirit believed in meditation, also died in that bomb.
00:52:47Like, she did not exist anymore.
00:52:50Because now I'm in a war.
00:52:54The five who died were Sir Anthony Berry, the Conservative MP for Southgate, Eric Taylor,
00:53:00Chairman of the Northwest Area Conservatives, Roberta Wakeham, wife of the Government Chief
00:53:04Whip, Mrs. Jean Shattuck, the wife of the Western Counties Chairman, and Mrs. Muriel McLean,
00:53:09the Scottish President's wife.
00:53:14Do you remember a point that it began to sink in, that five lives had been lost and some
00:53:19of them were close friends?
00:53:22It was a slow thing.
00:53:23It started on the day and just became more and more clear, visiting Norman Tebbit and seeing
00:53:32the terrible condition in which both he and Margaret were.
00:53:36Of course, you became utterly aware of the awfulness of what had happened.
00:53:44When did you hear that your friend Roberta Wakeham had lost her life?
00:53:50I don't know.
00:53:52When I heard that she'd lost her life.
00:53:57But the awful thing was, I could suddenly hear her laughing.
00:54:03It is absolutely my belief that once people die, somehow, they sort of go round people they've
00:54:12known.
00:54:12Yeah.
00:54:14She was one of the good mates amongst the wives.
00:54:18And I can tell it was a terrible shock, all of this.
00:54:23Oh.
00:54:23Yeah.
00:54:24I mean, what can you say about it?
00:54:27Well, you don't imagine it.
00:54:37Ten weeks ago, an IRA bomb devastated the Grand Hotel Brighton, killed five, injured 33, and
00:54:44all but killed Mrs. Thatcher and senior members of her government.
00:54:47Today, Brighton police made a fresh appeal for information about a guest who stayed in
00:54:52the hotel in September using a false name and address.
00:55:05At Scotland Yard, fingerprint experts positively identified the missing guest as Patrick Joseph
00:55:11McGee, a Belfast man in his 30s and a well-known member of the IRA.
00:55:17His one distinguishing feature, a finger missing on his right hand.
00:55:24Would it be an exaggeration to say one of the most wanted men in the world at that point?
00:55:28Well, I guess that must have been the case.
00:55:30Of course it was, yes.
00:55:32I worked, always working the principle, what information do they have about you and how
00:55:37you look?
00:55:37And all they have are photographs when I'm arrested.
00:55:42So I was pretty convinced all I had to do was ensure I didn't look like, you know, my
00:55:46mug shots.
00:55:52This was the number one priority of all police officers in the United Kingdom.
00:56:00Our job was to follow the sympathisers and see if they lead us to McGee.
00:56:08The longer and longer he was at liberty, the more the pressure grew.
00:56:13Where is this man?
00:56:15Why haven't you caught him?
00:56:17England was a big field of haystacks.
00:56:19We'd lose a needle then.
00:56:22The commitment I made at the time was to be out of the country for two years.
00:56:36You just kept it tight.
00:56:38Because, you know, this is the only way you can survive.
00:56:41I was on my own most of the time.
00:56:43But, you know, you're used to your own, you know, you're used to that.
00:56:46You know, you get used to that.
00:56:50At this particular stage, I had actually split up.
00:56:54I didn't have, you know, my wife at the time.
00:56:56I was married.
00:56:57But we had split up.
00:56:59Largely because I was away too much, you know, because of being active.
00:57:02It took its toll.
00:57:04I mean, there was one period when I was away for eight months.
00:57:09And there was not many relationships I think can survive.
00:57:11I had no contact at all for eight months.
00:57:14None, not even a letter, phone call.
00:57:16No contact at all.
00:57:19Did you have children at this point?
00:57:22I had a son.
00:57:23How old was your son?
00:57:24He would have been about six.
00:57:26He was six.
00:57:29When you're looking back on it, that's probably the source of greatest regret.
00:57:34The impact on, you know, your loved ones.
00:57:38I feel hugely conflicted about that.
00:57:42And you will carry that.
00:57:43And I still will always carry that.
00:57:45That's part of the price.
00:57:52We were told that someone may be coming across from Northern Ireland.
00:57:59And we were to go to Scotland for the operation.
00:58:04Our job was to monitor Peter Sherry.
00:58:08He was suspected, I have to say suspected, of killing at least nine people.
00:58:13And the RUC were telling us to follow this guy.
00:58:17Okay, don't lose him.
00:58:21There's a little bit of theatre involved in surveillance.
00:58:26It's an art form.
00:58:29One of the ways that surveillance watch people is to pretend to be a kissing couple.
00:58:37A female officer and a male officer sat down in the railway station
00:58:43and started canoodling and stroking hair.
00:58:47Meantime, they're watching Sherry.
00:58:52She had an earpiece.
00:58:56And the female officer said,
00:58:57Ah, there's a meat.
00:59:00She said,
00:59:02I think it's McGee.
00:59:04The first thing that came back was,
00:59:06Are you sure it's McGee?
00:59:09When they're talking,
00:59:10I noticed Pat's missing part of his finger.
00:59:15So I came out and I said,
00:59:17It's McGee.
00:59:21We followed them to a flat in Glasgow.
00:59:25I remember we were sitting around having a meal.
00:59:28I think we had plans to go out that evening.
00:59:31There was some concern that the landlord was due to come round,
00:59:37collect the rent.
00:59:39And so when there was a knock on the door,
00:59:41I went half anticipating the landlord.
00:59:45As soon as he opened the door,
00:59:47I knew it was the police.
00:59:48I just remember saying,
00:59:50Can I help you?
00:59:51Yes, can I help you?
00:59:53You know,
00:59:54while this was happening,
00:59:56this split second that was so fast,
00:59:58suddenly there was other bodies appeared
00:59:59and rushed in
01:00:01and
01:00:03captured the others.
01:00:04A cache of explosives and arms,
01:00:07which could be one of the biggest terrorist hauls
01:00:09ever made in Britain,
01:00:10has been uncovered by police
01:00:12in the block of flats
01:00:13they've been searching in Glasgow.
01:00:14The terrorist bomb factory
01:00:17contained timing devices
01:00:18which were already running,
01:00:19guns, ammunition
01:00:20and enough explosives
01:00:22to make a bomb ten times bigger
01:00:24than the one which wrecked
01:00:25the Grand Hotel in Brighton.
01:00:27Sixteen explosions had been planned
01:00:29using long-delay bombs.
01:00:31They were to hit London
01:00:33and a dozen seaside resorts
01:00:35at the height of the summer season.
01:00:38I have to tell you
01:00:39that the Scottish police
01:00:40were very large gentlemen
01:00:42and I get in the driver's seat
01:00:44and I look in the mirror
01:00:46and there's these two huge
01:00:49Glasgow police officers
01:00:51and Patrick McGee
01:00:53and I look in the mirror
01:00:54and I go,
01:00:55Ah, Pat.
01:00:57And his eyes
01:00:59were looking straight at me
01:01:01and it was like looking at the eyes
01:01:02of a shark.
01:01:04Cold eyes.
01:01:06You know,
01:01:07he's thinking.
01:01:08You can see his eyes thinking.
01:01:10I was looking a way out of it.
01:01:12I was looking,
01:01:13you know,
01:01:13really desperate thinking,
01:01:14you know,
01:01:15about looking for any angle,
01:01:17some way
01:01:18of taking advantage
01:01:19of a situation
01:01:20and hopefully
01:01:21in the chaos
01:01:22get away.
01:01:23You know,
01:01:24it's impossible.
01:01:26Good evening.
01:01:27The man who tried
01:01:28to blow up the Prime Minister
01:01:29and most of her cabinet
01:01:30is tonight
01:01:31beginning a life sentence
01:01:32in prison.
01:01:34Guilty of the murder
01:01:35of five leading members
01:01:36of the Tory party
01:01:37at their conference
01:01:38in 1984.
01:01:42We were looking
01:01:43at some of the headlines.
01:01:44The killer
01:01:45in room 629.
01:01:47That's from the Daily Star.
01:01:49Oh, dear,
01:01:49I missed that one.
01:01:52You're going to have that one?
01:01:53No.
01:01:54Keep it.
01:01:54This is the times
01:01:55you're called
01:01:56inhuman.
01:01:57Mm.
01:01:59Yeah,
01:01:59I remember that one,
01:02:00yeah.
01:02:04I refused to stand
01:02:05for the judge,
01:02:06so I had this process
01:02:07of being dragged
01:02:08to my feet
01:02:08and held,
01:02:10you know,
01:02:11while they were
01:02:12given the verdict.
01:02:14I didn't want
01:02:14to convey to him
01:02:16that I was taking
01:02:17what he had to say
01:02:17with any sort of wit.
01:02:19What he had to say
01:02:21didn't matter.
01:02:23And it didn't.
01:02:26This week,
01:02:27the man who tried
01:02:28to kill you
01:02:30and indeed killed
01:02:31some of your dearest friends
01:02:32was convicted
01:02:33at the Old Bailey.
01:02:35What's your reaction?
01:02:36What's your feeling
01:02:37seeing those verdicts
01:02:38brought in?
01:02:39If ever the violence
01:02:39to whomsoever it occurs,
01:02:41I hope those
01:02:42who perpetrate it
01:02:43will be brought
01:02:44to justice
01:02:45because it matters
01:02:45to the whole stability
01:02:47of our society.
01:02:49Do you have any
01:02:50personal feelings
01:02:51towards Patrick McGee?
01:02:53I have no personal feelings
01:02:55except a total hatred
01:02:56and contempt for violence.
01:02:58You voted in the past
01:02:59for the return
01:03:00of capital punishment.
01:03:01If ever there was a case
01:03:02for the sort of offense
01:03:04which you and people
01:03:05who think like you
01:03:06on that issue
01:03:07would hang a man for,
01:03:09it is this, isn't it?
01:03:10I have always voted
01:03:11for the return
01:03:12of capital punishment.
01:03:14I don't believe
01:03:14that people should be able
01:03:15to go out
01:03:16and do the most
01:03:17hideous crimes.
01:03:18Prime Minister,
01:03:19thank you very much
01:03:19for talking to us.
01:03:28Yes, that is terribly bright.
01:03:36That's a bit better.
01:03:37Is that all right?
01:03:37I guess better.
01:03:38Much better.
01:03:41I didn't notice
01:03:43any change
01:03:44in Margaret Thatcher
01:03:45as a result
01:03:46of the bomb incidents.
01:03:49But I think
01:03:50that her utter defiance
01:03:52did in the end
01:03:55cause her downfall.
01:03:58Ladies and gentlemen,
01:04:00we're leaving Downing Street
01:04:02for the last time
01:04:03after 11 and a half wonderful years.
01:04:08When she left,
01:04:10we were all in our trenches still.
01:04:15There was complete stalemate.
01:04:17She was an impediment to peace.
01:04:21To us, she represented war.
01:04:27I don't regard the British government
01:04:29as having beaten the IRA.
01:04:33What I do regard them
01:04:36as having achieved
01:04:37was the defeat of violence
01:04:39as a means of achieving political ends.
01:04:44It was the fact that the British government
01:04:47were staunch,
01:04:49and in particular,
01:04:50Margaret Thatcher
01:04:51was a leader in that,
01:04:53that in the end,
01:04:54I think,
01:04:54caused the nationalists
01:04:56to decide
01:04:57that it had to be achieved
01:04:59by politics
01:05:00or by negotiation.
01:05:18That's him.
01:05:21That's him, OK.
01:05:24We didn't know
01:05:25he was coming out of prison.
01:05:29I turn on the TV.
01:05:31The man who plotted
01:05:32to murder Margaret Thatcher
01:05:33and her entire cabinet
01:05:35in the Brighton bombing
01:05:36has been released from prison.
01:05:38He's free.
01:05:39My dad's not free.
01:05:40My dad can't come back.
01:05:41How is this justice?
01:05:44The trial judge said
01:05:45he should serve
01:05:46at least 35 years.
01:05:48Now he's free
01:05:49after just 14 years in jail,
01:05:51much to the anger
01:05:53of conservative MPs.
01:05:55Are you angry?
01:05:58I'm not terribly pleased.
01:06:00I don't believe
01:06:02you can ever
01:06:02achieve peace
01:06:04without justice.
01:06:06And what has happened
01:06:08is unjust.
01:06:14I remember
01:06:15looking into his eyes
01:06:16and thinking,
01:06:17does he feel any remorse?
01:06:23There he is.
01:06:24Front seat.
01:06:25Front right.
01:06:28He's just whisked away.
01:06:31And what was that
01:06:32making you think and feel?
01:06:34Well, I'd like to meet him.
01:06:40I mean, you're literally
01:06:43knocking on the door
01:06:43about to go in
01:06:44and meet the daughter
01:06:45of somebody who died in Brighton.
01:06:48and, uh, well, that's, that's, uh,
01:06:50that's, uh, pretty daunting.
01:06:53I shook his hand
01:06:54and said, thank you for, for coming.
01:06:57And I remember looking at him
01:06:59and thinking,
01:07:01you don't look like my dear
01:07:02to be a terrorist.
01:07:06He started off by giving me
01:07:09a lot of justification
01:07:12of his cause.
01:07:13I went there, as I said,
01:07:15with this feeling
01:07:16and obligation
01:07:17of explaining our intent,
01:07:19what our purpose was
01:07:21in targeting Brighton.
01:07:23I was about to leave
01:07:25because I saw him
01:07:28justifying killing my father
01:07:30and that was difficult.
01:07:33And then he said to me,
01:07:35tell me about your anger
01:07:37and your rage.
01:07:40She was telling me things
01:07:41about her father.
01:07:42She talked about her,
01:07:43about his own kind of view
01:07:45of the world.
01:07:46He was a family man.
01:07:48He was a caring,
01:07:50compassionate politician.
01:07:52He was wonderful.
01:07:55And I missed him.
01:07:58She wasn't hitting me
01:07:58over the head with it.
01:07:59This is the man you killed.
01:08:01She was just explaining
01:08:03something about her loss.
01:08:07And then in my head,
01:08:09something clicked.
01:08:10It says,
01:08:11I killed this guy.
01:08:13You know,
01:08:14who at some level,
01:08:16many levels,
01:08:18created this woman.
01:08:20You know,
01:08:21and that's shattering.
01:08:24That realization.
01:08:26At some level,
01:08:27I'd reduced him
01:08:28to all he stands for.
01:08:29To the point
01:08:30where he's this cypher
01:08:31who, you know,
01:08:33you can take this action against.
01:08:36I had been reduced.
01:08:39Something in me
01:08:40had been narrowed.
01:08:43that's then when he stopped.
01:08:46He, like, ran out of words.
01:08:48And he just looked at me
01:08:49and he took off his glasses
01:08:51and he rubbed his eyes
01:08:53and just said,
01:08:55I don't know who I am anymore.
01:09:00I remember saying to Jo that,
01:09:03I'm sorry I killed your dad.
01:09:05You know,
01:09:06and, uh,
01:09:07and she said
01:09:08a very extraordinary thing.
01:09:10Well,
01:09:10the words just popped out
01:09:11of my mouth.
01:09:15I'm so glad it's you.
01:09:22What on earth did you mean?
01:09:26I couldn't have
01:09:28predicted that
01:09:30he would go on this journey
01:09:32to move from a,
01:09:35from justifying
01:09:36to being open and vulnerable.
01:09:40Because if he hadn't,
01:09:42I wouldn't have met him
01:09:44a second time.
01:09:46Roughly how many times
01:09:48have you met
01:09:50with Patrick McGee
01:09:51between then
01:09:53and now?
01:09:54I don't know,
01:09:55three or four hundred times?
01:10:00So.
01:10:02The,
01:10:02the gritty bit.
01:10:04Yeah.
01:10:04There we go.
01:10:05I mean,
01:10:06take this off my hands.
01:10:07No, I'm not going to.
01:10:08I'll let you go through the pain
01:10:09and I'll just decide
01:10:10what I'm going to say.
01:10:12If you hold it together,
01:10:14if you could,
01:10:15you may have seen this before,
01:10:17but if not,
01:10:17I'd be interested to
01:10:18see what it.
01:10:20Joe wanted to meet again.
01:10:23Pat said yes.
01:10:26There's no right
01:10:28for me
01:10:30to sit here
01:10:31and be forgiven.
01:10:32I mean,
01:10:33in a sense,
01:10:33it's a political thing.
01:10:34I knew what I was doing
01:10:35and I would even defend
01:10:37actions of taking,
01:10:38et cetera.
01:10:39But,
01:10:39I think it's very important
01:10:42to be confronted
01:10:43by the consequences,
01:10:45to be confronted
01:10:46with your pain
01:10:47as a consequence
01:10:48that,
01:10:50you know,
01:10:50I suppose I deserve
01:10:52because there's always
01:10:53a place to pay for it
01:10:54in terms of my humanity.
01:10:55Mm-hmm.
01:11:02I have no emotion.
01:11:03I really don't.
01:11:05I'm sorry.
01:11:06I'm just...
01:11:08I have...
01:11:09I have nothing
01:11:10to offer
01:11:12on the subject
01:11:12of this gentleman.
01:11:15What's going through your head?
01:11:17I don't know
01:11:18if it should go on camera.
01:11:21I wonder what it really
01:11:22feels like
01:11:23inside his head.
01:11:24I wonder what
01:11:25his mum thinks.
01:11:29Well,
01:11:30the reason he did it
01:11:32was because
01:11:32he believed in his cause.
01:11:35He felt so strongly
01:11:36about it
01:11:37that he took
01:11:37these extraordinary
01:11:39strong actions.
01:11:40But...
01:11:41Terrible actions.
01:11:45I mean,
01:11:46for him
01:11:46to use
01:11:47the word
01:11:47humanity
01:11:48is just
01:11:49disgraceful.
01:11:51Who does he think
01:11:51he is?
01:11:53The people
01:11:54he's maimed
01:11:55and killed.
01:11:56If my sister
01:11:58is on this
01:11:58particular journey,
01:12:01if it does
01:12:02good,
01:12:03then that's
01:12:05fine with me.
01:12:09I did meet
01:12:11Patrick.
01:12:12They were having
01:12:13this presentation.
01:12:15I sneaked up
01:12:16on Patrick
01:12:17again
01:12:18and said,
01:12:19Patrick,
01:12:19I'm behind you.
01:12:21Oh,
01:12:22Brian,
01:12:22is that you?
01:12:24And I shook
01:12:26his hand
01:12:26and a lot
01:12:27of my colleagues
01:12:28said,
01:12:28you shouldn't
01:12:28have done that.
01:12:29I said,
01:12:30look,
01:12:31he's
01:12:32changed.
01:12:34He's
01:12:34adjusted.
01:12:36He's
01:12:37analysed
01:12:37what he did.
01:12:38Now he
01:12:39understands
01:12:40the consequences.
01:12:41He's met
01:12:41the daughter
01:12:42of someone
01:12:42he's killed.
01:12:45Hello,
01:12:46John.
01:12:47Clothes
01:12:47are the
01:12:48leg
01:12:48coming across?
01:12:49Stormy?
01:12:49Chubby?
01:12:50Yeah,
01:12:50yeah.
01:12:51Let's get
01:12:52in that car.
01:12:52It's going
01:12:53to be wet.
01:12:53Have you got
01:12:54a coat?
01:12:54They'll need
01:12:55it.
01:12:58Why did
01:12:59Pat meet
01:13:00Jody?
01:13:01Because he's
01:13:01honest.
01:13:01He's an honest
01:13:02person.
01:13:05He was
01:13:05involved in a
01:13:06conflict.
01:13:07He didn't
01:13:08invent the
01:13:09conflict.
01:13:11He responded
01:13:12to the
01:13:12conflict.
01:13:13So,
01:13:14what Pat is
01:13:16doing is
01:13:16actually
01:13:17confronting
01:13:18the truth
01:13:19here
01:13:20and
01:13:21the
01:13:22outworkings
01:13:22of the
01:13:24consequences
01:13:24of one's
01:13:25actions.
01:13:28Is there
01:13:28a conclusion
01:13:29you want
01:13:29to reach
01:13:30with him?
01:13:31Is there
01:13:32something he
01:13:32can say
01:13:33or do
01:13:34that would
01:13:35make you
01:13:36feel like,
01:13:36ah,
01:13:37we've got
01:13:37there?
01:13:40Well,
01:13:41is there
01:13:41a place
01:13:42to get
01:13:42to?
01:13:44But if
01:13:45there is
01:13:45such a
01:13:45place,
01:13:45it would
01:13:46be him
01:13:48saying
01:13:51nothing is
01:13:52worth
01:13:52killing
01:13:53someone
01:13:53for.
01:13:55He says
01:13:56that he
01:13:57will never
01:13:57forgive
01:13:58himself
01:14:00because he
01:14:01isn't saying
01:14:02what he did
01:14:02was wrong.
01:14:04Because he's
01:14:05holding on
01:14:06that they
01:14:07had no
01:14:08choice.
01:14:11Like,
01:14:12how,
01:14:12as human
01:14:13beings,
01:14:14how can
01:14:14we deal
01:14:15with the
01:14:15fact that
01:14:15we've
01:14:15killed?
01:14:19You know,
01:14:19I don't
01:14:20know.
01:14:20I think
01:14:22I know.
01:14:23I don't
01:14:23know.
01:14:51do you think
01:14:52learning this
01:14:54would make
01:14:55it
01:14:55impossible
01:14:56for you
01:14:56to carry
01:14:58out
01:14:58something
01:14:58like the
01:14:59Brighten
01:14:59Bond
01:14:59ever again?
01:15:01I think
01:15:01I think the
01:15:02very fact
01:15:02that you
01:15:02know more
01:15:03about a
01:15:03person
01:15:04makes it
01:15:04impossible.
01:15:06Impossible
01:15:06for what?
01:15:07To hurt
01:15:08them.
01:15:10So on that
01:15:11level,
01:15:11yes.
01:15:15The usual,
01:15:16it sounds like a
01:15:17cop-out,
01:15:17but it isn't.
01:15:19When people
01:15:20don't have
01:15:21resources or
01:15:21don't feel
01:15:22they have
01:15:22alternatives,
01:15:23that happens.
01:15:24Violence
01:15:24happens.
01:15:25The work
01:15:25with Joe
01:15:29has been my
01:15:31response.
01:15:45further
01:15:46first-hand
01:15:47testimony of
01:15:48the Brighten
01:15:48Bond
01:15:48follows on
01:15:49BBC4 now.
01:15:51If you've been
01:15:52affected by
01:15:53bereavement or
01:15:53the troubles,
01:15:54you'll find
01:15:55details of
01:15:55organisations
01:15:56offering
01:15:56information and
01:15:58support at
01:15:59the BBC
01:15:59Action Line
01:16:00website.
01:16:04The
01:16:04World
01:16:04is
01:16:04a
01:16:06production
01:16:06of
01:16:06the
01:16:06Inc.
01:16:07The
01:16:07World
01:16:07is
01:16:07a
01:16:07production
01:16:10of
01:16:10the
01:16:10Acoustic
01:16:10and
01:16:10the
01:16:10The
01:16:10Inc.
01:16:13The
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