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00:01May 3rd, 2016.
00:05How about your Italian heritage, when the family came to the States, where they're from?
00:15Well, it was my grandparents that came from Calabria and Baselagata, the southern part of Italy,
00:26in the early 19th century, late 19th century.
00:30And they lived in New York City, and then eventually into Brooklyn, and that's where my father and mother were
00:39born.
00:40Did your grandparents meet in Italy, or did they come to the States and meet here?
00:46They met in Italy.
00:47Oh, okay.
00:48Yeah, sure.
00:50So, when you were growing up, were the grandparents nearby? Did you spend time with them?
00:57Yeah, but I was too young at the time, and they died earlier. I think I was about 10 or
01:0312 years old.
01:04I met my grandfather and grandmother on my father's side.
01:09Uh-huh.
01:10And then my grandfather and my grandmother on my mother's side lived about maybe, oh, 10 or 15 miles closer
01:21to midtown Brooklyn.
01:23Got it.
01:24Yeah.
01:25So, did you speak Italian when you were growing up?
01:29No, not really, because my parents didn't speak Italian in the house.
01:34They only spoke Italian when she was talking to her mother and father.
01:39Right, right.
01:40Yeah.
01:41So, is there any suggestion that they wanted you to be American?
01:46No, I don't think so. No, I think they just didn't have the intelligence of speaking Italian fluently, and they
01:56just spoke very little bit to my grandparents, but I think they would like to have learned a little bit
02:02more themselves.
02:02No, because they were American born, and my parents, their parents spoke just in short sentences of what to do
02:11in Italian, and then they got married and went other places.
02:16Okay.
02:17Yeah.
02:18Well, tell me something about Brooklyn baseball in your youth. I mean, that was a hotbed of baseball, wasn't it?
02:25And a lot of Italian Americans playing ball in Brooklyn.
02:28Oh, yeah. Well, Brooklyn had about, I think, close to a million and a half people, and about half of
02:38those people living in Brooklyn at the time were Italian Americans, and the rest were Jewish people, and then the
02:46Hispanics came along, and now it's the Chinese people in Brooklyn.
02:50Right.
02:50So, we had Italian Americans in all our high schools, and we played against each other for many four years,
02:59and that's where Joe Torrey and his brother Frank played against us, and then we went to Long Island and
03:06played against Whitey Ford and those people.
03:08And I even played against Mario Cuomo up in, they called it the Queen's Alliance League. We were just 17
03:16years old at the time. And in my high school, I don't know if you know it, not lost yet.
03:23Not lost yet. Sure.
03:25Yeah, and we had a number of major league ball players, and the greatest one, of course, was Sandy Koufax.
03:33Right.
03:34And then we had Larry King, the entertainer, was born there too, and Victor Moan, and it was just a
03:41great school, great school.
03:43Victor Moan went to your school?
03:44Oh, absolutely. Yeah, Victor Moan went there, Allen, Dale, and a number of, a school with approximately 3,000 people
03:55who were 15,000, 1,800 Italian Americans, and the rest were Jewish youngsters, and those people became very famous
04:03in the financial markets and the CEOs, and I don't know all the names right now, but there's quite a,
04:09there's a book out on the Brooklyn Boys from Lockwood High School.
04:14Yeah.
04:15Did you play on the famous parade grounds when you were young?
04:19Oh, absolutely.
04:20Yeah.
04:21That was our evidence field.
04:23Yeah.
04:24We had to get up at 5 o'clock in the morning to get the number one field. It was
04:29a cage time, and we had to get out there, and we had a great ball club. Our ball club
04:35was called the Brooklyn Royals, R-O-Y-A-M.
04:38Sure.
04:38And we won all the championships. We had an average ball players, and of them, I think I was the
04:47only one, my brother Bob, that made the major leagues. But we had a lot of guys that went to
04:52their minors and didn't make it.
04:53So that was in high school. Was that, what kind of organized ball was it? At what age?
04:59Oh yeah, it was organized ball. I played with them from about 15 to 17, and my brother Bob played
05:07at the same time. And we played, we played approximately 100 to 120 ball games a summer.
05:13Yeah.
05:13Wow.
05:14Yeah, that's what really made us into pretty good ball players, because we were playing every day, three times, four
05:21times a week.
05:22Was this like, was it like a city league, an industrial league, or?
05:27Right. It was like a, it was like a, a, a, a Borough, a Borough Park league.
05:31Okay.
05:32With Bench and Hurts, and we played for ball clubs in, and, uh, Williamsburg and, and, uh, Park Slope, and
05:39then we went to Long Island.
05:40Uh.
05:42And, uh, uh, we, we, we went all over. Everybody wanted to play us, and we did a good job
05:48with them. And, uh, of course, we got beat a couple of times, too.
05:51Hmm. So, was that after the high school baseball season, in the summer?
05:57That's right. That's right. That's right. But that ended real quick. You know, the baseball high school was maybe 20,
06:0320, 25 games.
06:05Sure. Sure. The weather.
06:07Yeah.
06:08And, uh.
06:09So, when you.
06:09Yeah, that's what happened. Then we all, people, we'll find about contracts, and I went with the Red Sox.
06:15Right.
06:15And, uh, and then, uh, I don't know where to stand his first contract with, and he, he tried to
06:21beat, at school he could hit a ball to save his life.
06:24He could do a ball very well, but he couldn't throw a ball in the ballpark for a while.
06:28Right.
06:29And, and then he, uh, uh, Rodgers signed him, and he found himself after about six or seven years banging
06:36around the minors.
06:37He just found, uh, the right rhythm, and then, and he was unbeatable.
06:42Yeah, it's amazing. What a turnaround.
06:46When, when did you first, uh, start thinking about playing professionally, and when you did, did your parents support that,
06:53or did they oppose it as many?
06:56No, no, no, no. My, my father was, uh, he was out there helping us all the way through, and
07:02he was just a good, hard work individual, and loved sports, and he, he drove us around to all the
07:09games.
07:10Sure.
07:10Yeah, sure did. And, and when I got the contract with him, for the Boston Red Sox, he was thrilled
07:17about that.
07:18Great.
07:19And, and that was it. My, uh, Bob, uh, got his contract with the Brooklyn Dodgers.
07:24Right.
07:25And, uh, uh, uh, he, uh, went to, uh, uh, one of the, uh, part of the contract was that
07:34he stayed with the Brooklyn Dodgers for the time being about, uh, I think it was two months.
07:40And so he was original Brooklyn Dodgers with, uh, Jackie Robinson and Pee Wee Reese and those guys, you know,
07:48and then, then he went on to, uh, the minor leagues.
07:51Didn't you have a third brother that also played minor league ball?
07:55Yeah, I have an older brother, Charles. He played minor league ball, and, uh, I think it was the Yankee
08:02team.
08:03And he lasted about, I think, three or four years. He decided that he wasn't going to make it. He
08:08went back to school.
08:09Okay.
08:11Yeah.
08:12But still, it's a pretty good baseball family.
08:15Yeah, we, we, we really were. And, uh, in fact, we just had a great honor. Um, I don't know
08:22if you know about, but there's, uh, an individual that, uh, I know from the National Titan American Foundation named
08:30Vincent Viola.
08:31Uh, and he threw a, uh, a pre-induction party in New York City, uh, well, not New York City,
08:39in Brooklyn, in Williamsburg, at one of the famous restaurants called Bar Monte's.
08:45And he had 140 Italian Americans, uh, of all good caliber baseball, football, and, uh, CEOs show up at this
08:56function.
08:57And, and, uh, we had a great time with them. And, and of all things, uh, who comes in there
09:03besides Ken Langone with Home Depot, and, and a number of other well-known Tommy Lasore, and Bobby Valentine, and
09:12Fred Gommel.
09:13And we honored, uh, Michael Piazza.
09:16Yep.
09:16And, and, uh, uh, uh, uh, what's his name now? I just can't, just my mom. Um, the actor that
09:25just won the award.
09:27Oh, Leo DiCaprio.
09:28Leo DiCaprio.
09:30Yeah, yeah.
09:31And he came in, and, and he was very nice. And he was bigger than I thought he was. And,
09:36and we had a wonderful evening. So, it was a great, great camaraderie of Italian American individuals.
09:43In the restaurant. We left about 10 hours.
09:46Oh.
09:47Yeah.
09:48You know, I heard just a little bit about it, cause I was on the phone yesterday with George Randazzo
09:52in Chicago.
09:53Yeah, yeah.
09:54And he told me about it. Sounded like a great event.
09:57Yeah.
09:58George was in the, what was, probably the individual that got some of the ballplayers.
10:02Yeah.
10:02And I got some myself, yeah.
10:04Yeah, that's, that was a great, I'll tell you, and of all the younger Italian American ballplayers I've interviewed, uh,
10:11Mike is probably my favorite.
10:14Oh, yeah.
10:14Because he has such a strong sense of his identity. He goes to Italy, he works with the Italian baseball
10:20people.
10:21Absolutely.
10:21And as you know, that, that's, in his generation, that's not common, unfortunately.
10:28Yeah.
10:28Yeah.
10:28He's a wonderful young man. And we also honored him at a New York Gala on Thursday.
10:34Yeah.
10:35I saw that in the, in the.
10:37Yeah.
10:37It was great.
10:38Well, you mentioned you were drafted by the Red Sox, and I have to tell you, I grew up in
10:43Western Massachusetts, and I was a diehard Red Sox fan.
10:48Yeah.
10:48And, of course, my hero was Ted Williams.
10:51Sure, I played with him.
10:52So you made your debut in 57.
10:55That's right.
10:56What do you, what do you remember about that, uh, making your debut?
11:00Oh, well, I was, I was kind of worried about it.
11:03Of course, I came for the Pacific Coast League and ended up leading the league and hitting.
11:07I didn't think I got a fair shot with the Red Sox.
11:10And, uh, I guess they, their catcher got hurt and, and they needed a catcher.
11:14And, and they talked to Washington at that time for a catcher and, and they wanted me.
11:22And I was really devastated that I got traded within one year with the, with the Red Sox.
11:28Yeah.
11:28The, the time that I was with them with Ted Williams, well, I locked it next to Ted Williams
11:34for some reason.
11:35I don't want to put me there.
11:36Oh, wow.
11:36Really?
11:37Yeah.
11:37We talked a lot.
11:39He was kind of, uh, his conversation revolved around hitting all the time.
11:44Oh, yeah.
11:45Yeah.
11:45Nothing else.
11:46And, uh, and asking questions about how I hit the ball on the Pacific Coast League, and
11:50what did I look for.
11:52And so, but he was very, very, uh, uh, to himself.
11:57He didn't, he didn't participate with most of the guys, you know, he was a superstar
12:01status.
12:02Sure.
12:02And, uh, he traveled alone, and he, he had a temper, a very, very temper.
12:09And, uh, we just, uh, seemed to, uh, hit it off at the time of the era.
12:13And he was, he, uh, said to me when I was going away, he said, you know, Kenny, he said,
12:17I don't know how, what kind of ball player you're going to be, but, uh, I think you should
12:22have stayed with us.
12:22Because I hit, I hit it on 270 for them at the time that I was there.
12:27But they moved me over.
12:30Well, that, to me, up to my mind, 1957 was Ted's greatest year.
12:35That's right.
12:35I mean, he had 388, and he had 39 home runs at his age.
12:39Are you kidding me?
12:40That's right.
12:40Yeah.
12:41I can tell you something, he thought, I thought it, I thought it in second, he thought it
12:45third.
12:46And, uh, uh, and, but I was up there when the, I forgot who was leading off.
12:51Uh, but I was in a batting circle waiting to hit.
12:56And I was looking around in the stands.
12:58I don't know why I was doing that.
13:00And getting a lot, just seeing a lot of people at one time.
13:04And he said to me, after I got back to the dugout, he said, don't you ever do that again.
13:10He said, you, you look at the grass in front of you.
13:14He said, because the ball will come in wider feet.
13:17Hmm.
13:18Really?
13:19Well, Ted, I appreciate that very much.
13:21Yeah.
13:23Don't ever look at a white shirt.
13:25Don't ever look at a white building.
13:26Oh.
13:27Always look at the grass.
13:28Well, you know, I've written about Ted.
13:33I did a book on Ted.
13:34I, I, I met him twice, spent time in his home, because he was, he was older by then and
13:40mellowed and just very gracious and intelligent.
13:44But I've never, and I've read everything about him, but that what you just told me is something I've never
13:50heard him say.
13:51That's, that's, that's good.
13:53Fantastic.
13:54Look at the green and the ball will look whiter.
13:57Yeah.
13:58Brilliant stuff.
13:59Isn't it?
13:59Yeah.
14:00Yeah.
14:00He was a scientist.
14:02He knew everything about the hitting and how to hold the bat.
14:05Oh God.
14:05How to hold the bat.
14:06To build up your forearms and don't worry about your chest, that you hit the ball with your forearms and
14:12your wrist action.
14:13And, and you can see, he was a skinny guy.
14:15Yeah.
14:15But he was skinny.
14:17Yeah.
14:17Yeah.
14:18And there was no bolt to him.
14:19Like, no, I played with Harmon Killer because he was a big guy.
14:23Right.
14:23And, uh, but he knew how, what to do with that bat.
14:26And, uh, I'm just sorry that he had such a tough, uh, life other than baseball.
14:32Yeah.
14:33I really felt for him and his family.
14:35Yeah.
14:36But, uh, he died of, you know, just, I didn't, I didn't like what the children did.
14:41No.
14:42Very sad.
14:43Very sad.
14:44Very sad.
14:44Now, listen, you said something a little while ago.
14:48Yeah.
14:48You didn't think you got a fair shot with the Sox.
14:50Now, I have heard from a couple of sources that there was an anti-Italian bias with the Red Sox
14:57because of the whole Irish administration, Cronin, et cetera.
15:01Uh, Jerry Casale, does that name ring a bell?
15:04Oh, Jerry.
15:05That's a close friend.
15:07Well, Jerry's the one person who was outspoken with me about saying that they, you know.
15:13Well, and he said that's why Frank Malzone stayed in the minor so long.
15:18And, uh, you know, now you're saying, did you feel that?
15:22Some discrimination?
15:23No, I, I never felt the discrimination.
15:26I just, uh, I thought they, they were, uh, not up to par with the young guys.
15:32Yeah.
15:33Who, who had more talent, they traded away more talent than what they had.
15:37Yeah.
15:37And I thought, you know, when a guy, when a guy leaves the league and hitting, you gotta give him
15:42at least a year in the big leagues for that club before you make a decision.
15:47Sure.
15:47And that, uh, and that's the only thing that got, that bothered me, you know.
15:51Yeah, yeah.
15:51I couldn't understand that.
15:53Because you, you weren't so hard to get to the big leagues and to the club that you wanna play
15:58for.
15:59And, and you're gone within, you know, half a year or a year, whatever it was.
16:05Well, winning, winning the Pacific Coast batting league, I mean, that, that was a hell of a league.
16:09It was a great league.
16:11It was a great league.
16:12It was a great league.
16:13I, I, uh, they, they, there's all the old timers there that play Mase League baseball and Mase League pitching
16:18was there.
16:19Right.
16:20Uh, it was, uh, so that was my disappointment.
16:23That's all.
16:24Yeah, yeah.
16:26In the, uh, years you played, what other, apart from Ted, who obviously was something, uh, special, but were there
16:32other players that stand out in your memory?
16:35Oh, yeah.
16:36You know, I, I, I, I played her in the years of, uh, the, Mickey Mantles and Roger Maris and,
16:43and, and Hank Aaron, that was a teammate with me and Milwaukee, with Warren Spock.
16:48I played with, I played with more superstars than you got here on your head.
16:52It's unbelievable.
16:54You know, it was a great era.
16:55A lot of guys can't say that.
16:57Yeah.
16:58You know, these, these were teammates of mine and, uh, and, uh, you know, I just, uh, was so honored.
17:05And, and, and lucky to be able to stand with the same uniform on that they did.
17:09Mm.
17:09And, uh, you know, Mickey and I, well, well, he, he just slide into me and knock me down and
17:15say, how you doing?
17:17And, but, uh, Roger Maris didn't say very much, you know, he just hit home runs in 1961 and I
17:24was playing against him all the time.
17:26And, and, uh, they, they, they, they, he, he, he, he looked like a troubled, troubled ball player.
17:32Yeah.
17:32What was wrong with him?
17:33But he just was not part of the, uh, the baseball was genuine.
17:38He, he, he just didn't act like a baseball player.
17:41He should act as a superstar, you know?
17:43Right.
17:44And, uh, but Hank Aaron was a superstar with me and then he, he, he hit home runs like I
17:50was hit singles.
17:51It was unbelievable.
17:52And, uh, uh, of course, Eddie Matthews was at third base and we just had a great, uh, great ball
17:59club.
17:59Yeah, no, the, the Braves in those days were great.
18:04Yeah, right.
18:05I mean, there was, there was a weak link on the whole club just about pitching and which, which one,
18:10which club's pitching staff didn't get hurt during the season.
18:13That's what it was.
18:14Yeah, yeah.
18:14Which, uh, which pitchers stand out in your memory?
18:18Well, God, I, I, I played against a lot of tough, you know, of course, Whitey Ford was tough in
18:24New York.
18:24And, and, uh, uh, Jim Bunning was another one of this terrific and the number of pitchers that really, uh,
18:33were hard to get, hard to pick up.
18:35Mm-hmm.
18:36But Bob Gibson in the National League, gosh, he was in that.
18:39But I, I can tell you a story of the last place was Sandy Koufax.
18:44I was at the Chicago Cup and he was pitching out there and I used to tell him, Sandy, just
18:48throw me fastballs, don't throw me any curveballs.
18:51He, he'd laugh and, and, and, and, and that especially struck me out with a clay ball.
18:58Yeah.
18:59Gibson was, uh, uh, a mean pitcher, wasn't he?
19:03I mean, Andy.
19:04No.
19:05Bob Gibson.
19:07Well, you know, if, if, if you stand too close to the place, he'd knock you down.
19:11I mean, you stand up the, you gotta give him the 17 inches, otherwise he's gonna knock you down.
19:17Yeah.
19:17And, uh, for, uh, for most guys to stay away from that and, because he's tough enough to hit when
19:22you're standing in a, in, in a box.
19:25But, these guys wanna get up close so they get the ball before it breaks and, and, and he'd knock
19:30you down.
19:31He'd knock, he'd throw you the hardest sticker on your hands and break the bat.
19:36Yeah, he's, he was a great one.
19:38Yeah, quite a competitor.
19:39Oh, absolutely.
19:41Uh, those, that, that, that, that's the kind of ballplayers we had those days.
19:45They're all great competitors.
19:48And, you know, now we've got the pitch counts and, um, like the other night, uh, Don Mattingly took that
19:5525-year-old kid out of the game when he had a no-hitter in seven and a third innings.
19:59And I thought, you can't, you can't do that.
20:02Yeah.
20:03I mean, everything now, you gotta protect the players, the agents, and, but, like, in your day, pitchers expected to
20:11pitch a complete game every time they went out, didn't they?
20:14Yeah, absolutely.
20:15I, I don't, I, I don't know if that was the Don Mattingly decision.
20:19No, I'm sure he had pressure from above, right.
20:22Yeah, I'm pretty sure he had pressure from above because they're, they're very protective of a kid at 25 years
20:28of age.
20:29And it probably gave him a lot of money.
20:30That won't hurt his arm.
20:31I had to remember back when Billy Martin had this youngster at Texas, uh, Texas Rangers when, I forgot, his
20:39name was Clyde, I think.
20:40It was David Clyde.
20:40Oh, yeah, David Clyde, yeah.
20:42Yeah, I, I, I, I managed against Billy and he pitched him, like, every third or fourth day.
20:47The kid was, he was drawing crowds of 40,000.
20:50Yeah.
20:51And all of a sudden, he hurt his arm.
20:54Yeah.
20:55And he was out of there.
20:56The kid wasn't ready for that kind of pitching.
20:58And, uh, so I can see what they did with this young man down there in Miami.
21:03But, uh, when it's, when it's got no hit, but they really had to take this thing over.
21:08Yeah.
21:08Yeah.
21:09It's too bad.
21:10I don't know.
21:11So then, you lost, uh, two years in the service, and then you played until 63, and then you went
21:18to Japan for three years.
21:20Yeah, yeah, that was a great time.
21:22Yeah.
21:22My, my, my time was up, and, uh, at the same time that the Chicago country didn't redo my contract.
21:29Japanese called, and I liked to go to Japan and, and pay me more money than I made in the
21:35big leagues.
21:36Yeah.
21:36Yeah.
21:37And, uh, went there and stayed three years.
21:39It could have stayed longer, but, um, my wife said, you know, she wanted to get back.
21:44And she said, either we can take out a Japanese citizenship or go home.
21:51So what was that like?
21:52How different was it?
21:54Oh, it was different.
21:55Yeah.
21:56Different.
21:56Uh, what really struck me is that they have, there's, there's no violence in their play.
22:04None whatsoever.
22:06It's like, uh, getting a group of guys in New York and throwing a softball game together to
22:13have a fun time.
22:14Okay.
22:14And they have a big pot of tea on their, on their dugout.
22:18And they, they all bow to one another.
22:21And very seldom you see anybody throw at anybody.
22:24It's always American pitchers throwing at a Japanese.
22:27Yeah.
22:28And, uh, and it's fine.
22:30It's the second base.
22:31There's no, no, no knocking anybody down.
22:34Mm-hmm.
22:34It's just a, uh, a very calm game.
22:37And, and, um, and they just honor one another.
22:41Mm-hmm.
22:41It's getting a little different now though, because the ball players have got too much
22:45instructions from Americans.
22:46That's the problem.
22:47Oh, yeah.
22:48Yeah.
22:48That's it.
22:49When you get Americans going over there, they have the tendency to spoil their lives
22:53of a lot of baseball players.
22:54Mm-hmm.
22:55And, uh, then we had American manager there too.
22:58And so, uh, they teach these kids a little bit differently.
23:01But I don't know if the Japanese want to play as well as Americans.
23:04They just want to have a good time.
23:06Mm-hmm.
23:06And enjoy, if they win the prize, they lose the prize.
23:09There's no, there's no animosity for anybody.
23:11Yeah.
23:12Well, Bobby Valentine managed over there for quite a while.
23:16Oh, he sure did.
23:17I know.
23:17I saw Bobby last week.
23:19Yeah, he sure did.
23:20And he was a good manager.
23:21Mm-hmm.
23:21But, uh, the time comes with it.
23:23The, the Japanese people say, hey, we'll go, we'll go with our own guys now.
23:27We have enough instructions.
23:29We know what to do.
23:30Mm-hmm.
23:30And, uh, because, uh, uh, you know, the Japanese, the American's not going to win any more games
23:36than the Japanese, uh, more players that he has.
23:39Mm-hmm.
23:40And, uh, so he, he, he, Bobby did more instruction than he did managing.
23:44Mm-hmm.
23:45Mm-hmm.
23:46Yeah.
23:48And...
23:49So, would you say the level of play was what, uh, like, double A?
23:54When I was there, it was more, uh, hitting was like double A, pitching was triple A.
23:59Mm-hmm.
24:00Yeah.
24:01Yeah.
24:01The, the hitting was, was, was, uh, one of the single hitters.
24:05I played against about a row, oh, oh, the jazz, the Korean superstar.
24:11Yeah.
24:11Boy, he could have played the big leagues with no, no doubt in my mind.
24:15Sure.
24:15And there was, there was a third baseman called Nagashima.
24:18He should have played the big league.
24:20And then, uh, great left-handed pitcher, six foot four, I don't know where he, he was
24:25Korean.
24:26Mm-hmm.
24:26He was, he was, he was named Kanaina.
24:29And he would, those three guys I would have picked right away to, to play jazz, American
24:34baseball.
24:34Mm-hmm.
24:35But I asked Sadaho that question.
24:38And he says, uh, they call, they call me Asbro's son, Mr. Asbro.
24:43Oh, yeah.
24:47Why should I come to your country?
24:50Uh, I don't, I don't speak the language.
24:53Uh, I don't like your food.
24:55And I, and I, and I make a million dollars a day over here.
24:58What, what, what, what, what, it don't make sense for me to go there.
25:00Right.
25:01I, I, I don't have to prove to you all that I can get a baseball.
25:05He's absolutely right.
25:06Mm-hmm.
25:06Yeah.
25:07Yeah.
25:07Yeah.
25:07You know, this guy hit like 8, 8, 850 homes and they weren't home for pop flies.
25:13Yeah.
25:13And I played against them.
25:14Yeah.
25:15They were 400, 450 feet way out of, out of those stadiums.
25:19So he, he.
25:20He's a nice guy, a wonderful man.
25:22I think he's managing there now.
25:24I, I think you're right.
25:25Yeah.
25:25Yeah.
25:26I think he's managing.
25:27Yeah.
25:29Well, speaking of.
25:29It was a great, great experience, the three good years.
25:32And, uh, uh, I enjoy it.
25:35My wife, she, she enjoyed it, but she was alone a lot, you know?
25:39Sure.
25:39Because I was on a road just two weeks a month.
25:42And, uh, so she didn't get, it was pretty difficult for her.
25:47Was there a communication problem when you were playing on the Japanese team?
25:51I, I had an interpreter.
25:53Okay.
25:53And then I learned I loved Japanese, but my, but the Japanese that the ball players
25:57taught me was all bad Japanese.
25:59Of course.
26:00You know, a lot of, a lot, a lot of customers involved.
26:04And I watched myself.
26:05So everything I, every time I had to say something, I looked at the interpreter, I said,
26:10is this okay?
26:14It was a great experience.
26:16I really, I really loved my time there.
26:18That's great.
26:20Yeah.
26:20Yeah.
26:20So what, uh, what was it that ultimately appealed to you about becoming a manager yourself?
26:26Well, that was a, that was more of an accident, you know?
26:30Uh, I was, I was home, uh, in Washington, D.C.
26:33Well, I lived.
26:33I live in Maryland.
26:35And, uh, uh, one of the sportscasters, his name was Warner Wolf.
26:39Oh, yeah.
26:40Yeah.
26:41Warner Wolf was, was doing a sportscaster for the Cleveland Indians, I mean, for the Washington
26:46Center against the Cleveland Indians that night.
26:49And he says, Kenny, why don't you come up there with me and, and, and do it, do the,
26:54do the sports broadcast for me and, and, uh, uh, have some fun against your old ball club.
27:00Hmm.
27:01So I thought, oh yeah, I'll do it.
27:02Okay.
27:02So I give my, my commentary about the ball club's on the air.
27:07And lo and behold, it was broadcast back to Cleveland.
27:10Hmm.
27:12And, uh, Hank Peters was the general manager at that time.
27:17And he called me the next day and he says, uh, you know, do you have any interest in,
27:22uh, coming back into baseball?
27:25And I says, well, it's all depends.
27:26And I'm not sure what I want to do right now.
27:28And I just got back from Japan.
27:30He says, well, look, he says, we got a rookie league down in Florida that we can use you
27:36for three months and, uh, give us some thought.
27:39So I sat down and I talked to my wife and said, let's go to Florida.
27:43Hmm.
27:44And it was June, July, and August, you know, the hottest month in Florida.
27:48And, uh, I worked with the young kids that were just signed up from high school and college.
27:53And I kind of enjoyed it.
27:56And then the next year they moved me to Reno, Reno, Nevada, which is class A.
28:02Uh-huh.
28:02And I, I enjoyed that.
28:04I didn't like the bus rides very much, but, uh, I had a good time.
28:09And then I went to, uh, from A to triple A.
28:13So I must have opened up some guy's eyes in the field of the organization.
28:17Uh-huh.
28:18And, uh, I stayed there two years at 70, 71.
28:23And then, uh, 72, Gabe Hall called me and he says, uh, it's your time.
28:28And I went to the big manager for three years.
28:31Yeah.
28:33So it was a good, a good training for me in the minor leagues.
28:37And I, I, I just don't believe that the managers of today that don't go to the minor leagues are
28:44going to have trouble.
28:46It's, it's not because they, they don't know how to play the game or went to the bus or went
28:51to take out the pitcher.
28:53It's, it's how they held 25 different personalities.
28:57Yeah.
28:57And, and this, uh, you, you, you, you've got to be, you've got to have some psychology major interest.
29:03Understand that there's all kinds of thoughts going through these kids' heads and, and why they're not playing.
29:09Yeah.
29:10And some guys, one of those other situations.
29:12And you've got to talk to them.
29:13Mm-hmm.
29:14They, if they don't have that experience, they're going to have trouble.
29:17Mm-hmm.
29:22Well, Ted Williams became a manager and he didn't last too long.
29:27He didn't let us talk to them.
29:28You just need to take a look around.
29:30Now I've got, this is the whole, uh, I have the experience.
29:34Well, Ted wouldn't have never talked to anybody.
29:36It was very difficult for Washington, which I've managed against them.
29:39I was going to say, you must have.
29:41Yeah, I did.
29:42I did.
29:42We talked to them, you know, not engaged.
29:44Now you're doing Ted.
29:45Yeah.
29:46Yeah.
29:51It's just like, you know, I, my, my pitching coach was Warren Spahn.
29:55Oh, that's right.
29:57It was a difficult time for my, my pitchers with Cleveland Indians.
30:01They weren't as good as he was.
30:03And, uh, he led well.
30:05He tried to help them, but maybe they didn't have the ability that he had, you know, and, and, and
30:12that.
30:12He didn't get along with some of them.
30:16Well, isn't that the same problem Williams had because he was just so good he couldn't understand why the, uh,
30:21others weren't as good?
30:23That's right.
30:23Yeah.
30:24I mean, they, yeah.
30:25Yeah.
30:25Yeah.
30:26But, you know, why can't you get the curveball over with, with two strikes?
30:30Why can't you get the slider over it?
30:32Right.
30:32Right.
30:33And, uh, you can't overpower everybody with a fastball because that's the most miserable pitch in the major league.
30:39Yeah.
30:40And, uh, but, uh, it's, it's, it's very difficult.
30:45If you have the time and you're in no hurry, go to my league, like the AAA, you know, if
30:52you're a coach for a year or two and learn how to handle the players.
30:56Yeah.
30:56And what they're thinking is.
30:58And, and the, the, the, the most of the guys have family backgrounds of, of trouble.
31:02Sure.
31:03You know, whether they come from the Caribbean or whether they come from, uh, the rural, uh, rural areas of,
31:10of the country.
31:11Yeah.
31:11They don't know about the big city's life.
31:14Yeah.
31:15And it's a real, a real, I, I had to go through all that in my league, so I understood
31:19it quite a bit.
31:20In fact, I took all players up, uh, from class A right to the big leagues with me, like Buddy
31:25Bell and, and Chris Chambliss, those guys.
31:28Yeah, a couple of good guys.
31:29Yeah.
31:30They, they came along with me and I worked with them and, uh, they became pretty good ball players.
31:35Mm-hmm.
31:35Yeah.
31:37What, um, what was the greatest challenge as a manager?
31:40Was it the managing their personalities or was it the strategy on the field?
31:46What, what was the most challenging?
31:47No, no.
31:48The greatest challenge to a manager is the front office.
31:52Ah.
31:53Not the ball players.
31:54The ball players will play the game for you.
31:56They, they, they, they know what they have to do in a major league.
32:00That's what, that's what got them down.
32:02But it's the front office and the press and the fans that you gotta answer to.
32:07And, but mostly it's the general manager and yourself who don't, who disagree.
32:12Mm-hmm.
32:13And, of course, he's your boss and if you don't like, you'll, you, you, you'll get your contract
32:18renewed.
32:19Sure.
32:19Good.
32:20And, and that's the damn part about them.
32:22And, and, and the front office is, is rough life people that are not baseball oriented.
32:27Yeah.
32:28But mostly business people.
32:30Yeah.
32:30Who are successful.
32:32And I can't blame them because it's their money.
32:35Mm-hmm.
32:35But they, they don't bet enough.
32:37Hmm.
32:38Interesting.
32:39And it's more, more and more that way, don't you think?
32:42Oh, that, no, absolutely.
32:45Absolutely.
32:45You know, you, you, you wonder why managers that don't get renewed, you, then you, you
32:50see back if you get it, you get into a problem with the general manager.
32:53Right.
32:53Or you get into a problem with the front office.
32:55Yeah.
32:55But not the ball players.
32:57Very rarely a ball player get the manager fired.
32:59Very rarely.
33:00Hmm.
33:02Yeah.
33:04So, what about, you said you managed against Billy Martin.
33:07What did you think of Billy as a manager?
33:09No, Billy was a great tactician.
33:12He really, he knew the game.
33:13He, he, he just couldn't control his temper.
33:16Right.
33:17Right.
33:17And that's what got him into a lot of trouble.
33:20And, and Steinbrenner, who, who I know very well, because he's from Cleveland.
33:24Mm-hmm.
33:25Uh, him and I got along very well.
33:26He, he just had a lot of fun with him.
33:29He thought that he was a good showman and tactician.
33:31And he drew the fans.
33:33Yeah.
33:33They were a good act together.
33:35Yeah.
33:35But, but the time that Billy had it out with Reggie Jackson there, uh, that was uncalled
33:42for, for a manager.
33:43Yeah.
33:43Right.
33:44In the dugout.
33:45Yeah.
33:45He made a mistake.
33:46Yeah.
33:47On television too.
33:48Yeah.
33:49Right.
33:49The TV grabbed on television.
33:51Didn't, didn't help either one of them.
33:53Yeah.
33:53Yeah.
33:54And, uh, but, uh, that's the way he was.
33:57He can't change him.
33:59And, and, you know, we all knew he was going to have a tough time outside of baseball.
34:04Uh, and then he had that auto accident.
34:08Yeah.
34:09Or truck accident.
34:10He killed both of themselves.
34:11Yeah.
34:11Terrible.
34:12Uh, I've heard from other people that he was very much, um, into his Italian, Italian
34:19identity.
34:19Did you find that to be true?
34:21Yeah.
34:22Yeah.
34:22But, but, no, he wasn't a hundred percent Italian.
34:25No.
34:25But his mother was, and he was raised by his mother and grandmother.
34:29Yeah.
34:30Yeah.
34:30He liked us.
34:31He, he, he liked the, the, uh, the 50% Italian that he was.
34:36And, you know, we, we, we got along very well again, uh, uh, uh, Italian Americans.
34:41And, and, uh, I tell you what he did one time.
34:44I was playing, uh, I was the manager of the Indians.
34:46He was the manager of, uh, Texas Rangers, I believe.
34:51And, uh, we, we, we had a, uh, uh, uh, really, I think no word I can use is a
34:58stupid
34:59promotion at Cleveland.
35:01That was, that was brought up to me.
35:03He did what they, what they had 10 cents beer a night.
35:06Yeah.
35:07Oh yeah.
35:08Yeah.
35:0810 cents beer a night.
35:09And I said, no, but you can't do this.
35:11You can't do this.
35:13It's just possible.
35:14So what did we tell them?
35:15What are you talking about?
35:16We're going to throw 30,000 on them.
35:18I said, they will be drunk in the first inning with 10 cents beer a night.
35:23Don't do this.
35:24Well, they went ahead and did it.
35:25We had no, very little security.
35:27Uh huh.
35:28And, and here we go.
35:30Uh, it's about the seventh inning.
35:31They, they jumped out of the stands in the right field after Jeff Burroughs.
35:36And Jeff Burroughs, big kid, was knocking them down after that.
35:39And then all of a sudden about a hundred of them came off.
35:41And then the Texas Rangers started fighting.
35:44And I brought my team out there.
35:47We had 50 ballplayers fighting about a thousand of them.
35:50Uh huh.
35:52Uh huh.
35:52And we knocked them down like, like a, a, a bowling pit did.
35:55Uh huh.
35:56Uh huh.
35:56Uh huh.
35:57They were so drunk.
35:58Uh huh.
35:59And, and then we couldn't get them off the field.
36:00Oh, God.
36:01And then we couldn't get them off the field.
36:03Uh huh.
36:03And then the uplies waited about, I think, an hour.
36:07Uh huh.
36:07And then I, I got, uh, four for the game.
36:11Uh huh.
36:11Uh huh.
36:12It was just ridiculous.
36:13Just ridiculous.
36:14What, uh, what year was that?
36:17Hey, Billy, thank you so much for bringing out my team out there and helping them out.
36:22He, he sent me a bottle of scotch.
36:26Do you remember what year that was, Ken?
36:29Oh, that was either 60, uh, maybe, uh, 72 or 74.
36:36I think that was 73.
36:37Uh huh.
36:38Yeah.
36:39Yeah.
36:40You can look it up.
36:42Yeah.
36:42Yeah.
36:43It's written up all the time.
36:44Yeah.
36:44I can check that.
36:45Wow.
36:47Yeah.
36:47That was a great experience with William.
36:49They became, we were friends before, but after that we were like brothers.
36:53Really?
36:54Yeah.
36:54We were real close.
36:55Yeah.
36:55We were real close.
36:56I actually talked to him a lot about it.
36:58It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a little, but I have a little temper too.
37:03Yeah.
37:03He's got a lot of temper, but, uh, but it, it, uh, I don't know.
37:09I don't know many of Tyler Marbles that don't have a temper.
37:11Yeah.
37:13He was a colorful figure to be sure.
37:15Oh, he sure was.
37:17Yeah.
37:17Yeah.
37:18Yeah.
37:18Yeah.
37:21Yeah.
37:22Yeah.
37:23Yeah.
37:26Yeah.
37:27Yeah.
37:27Yeah.
37:28You
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