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00:04What about the expansion, let's take it up to the present, has that had a big effect
00:12on the quality of play?
00:14No, there's no question about that.
00:17What made expansion is possible with the colored well for the first one, but that was handled
00:26well.
00:27The second one was a little bit tougher, there was the South American ballplayers, the Cuban
00:33ballplayers.
00:33There wasn't that many of them.
00:35That expansion was a little bit tougher.
00:38Yeah.
00:39Now they're talking about the third expansion.
00:42I don't know where they're going to get them from.
00:45I watched the ball game last year, and two first-string catchers, and both of them hitting
00:49under 200.
00:51That's right.
00:51They need 50.
00:52They're talking about two clubs.
00:54They need 50, 100 ballplayers for two clubs.
00:59Because each position is going to take two men to fill.
01:03So there is not 100 ballplayers available.
01:09But they're going to expand two more teams, at least without a doubt, in the next few years.
01:15Well, you know, the National League is probably handled a lot better than the American League.
01:20Yeah, but I think they're going to have to expand.
01:24And let's say that they're probably going to expand basically because of political purposes, in good part.
01:35Yeah.
01:37If they want to stay within certain benefits of the government.
01:42Yeah.
01:43The other thing is that they possibly may be able to do this by going back to the 21 or
01:5025 limit, and taking four players off of each club, and getting a nucleus in that fashion.
01:57That's right.
01:58But they must come up to the nucleus, and there's no way I can see now that they can't go
02:02into the colleges and get the nucleus.
02:05Oh, no.
02:05Because in baseball, you can't come out of the college.
02:08It's a rare player.
02:09It's a rare player.
02:10Yeah.
02:10We've got very few know-outs.
02:12Yeah.
02:12And we're going back a long way.
02:15Yeah.
02:15Very few are right.
02:20But what about the attitude of players these days compared to your day?
02:27Well, I was in a different era, so that's a hard thing to really get to other than to say
02:37I was in a depression area.
02:40In a depression area, regardless of what field you was in, whether you were in teaching, whether you were a
02:46carpenter, regardless of what field you were in, you worked hard because what were you going to do if you
02:54lost your job?
02:55Yeah.
02:56So I would say that attitude is a big thing.
03:02Except for, now I broke in Pete Rose.
03:06Pete had that good attitude when he started golfing.
03:10I don't know where it goes.
03:11So you can see the attitude.
03:13It's there.
03:14Yeah.
03:15Yeah.
03:17Another part of the attitude, I think, is that with Ollie's enormous salaries, most of the ball players are now
03:24as concerned about their business deals as they are about playing ball.
03:31Well, you can go back 50 years in your own life, and I can too, and there was an expression
03:37of, he's making so much money, don't know how to handle it.
03:41And we can go back and talk about boxers out then who were making the big money.
03:47That could not handle that money at that time.
03:51So, yes, you've got that situation.
03:59What about travel in your day, by train?
04:03Well, I think that's what we had an age.
04:06We'd usually pull out, we were operating at that time, you know, out of Cincinnati, which is the middle of
04:14the country of a place between St. Louis and New York.
04:17Of course, today you've got California, and it changes the game a little bit.
04:22But we'd normally pull out at midnight, get a good night's sleep, and call in at eight and get up
04:31and go to a hotel and have breakfast.
04:33Today they play a game, they leave after the game, they leave the airport, midnight games now.
04:39Yeah.
04:40They leave the airport anywhere from one to two o'clock in the morning.
04:43They put in at anywhere from three to six.
04:47All right.
04:50You don't have that time.
04:51Try rest.
04:51And they're in the day.
04:53That's right.
04:53That's not easy.
04:54And not when you're in good physical conditions.
04:57You train to get in good physical conditions, and you travel to get out of it.
05:02That's about the way it's working right now.
05:04But I think we got more rest.
05:06Yeah, you did, and I think there was more, I don't know, I think the players were more together.
05:12They talked baseball more among themselves.
05:15Oh, that's all right.
05:16That's all right.
05:16We ran together.
05:18You ran with your roommate.
05:19Sure.
05:19You stayed with your roommate.
05:21And you knew where your roommate was.
05:22He knew where you were.
05:23Yeah.
05:24Well, the manager knew about the bucket.
05:26Well, we had a few, you know.
05:28All right.
05:29You got a few.
05:30Dr. Hack Wilson or something like that.
05:31Yeah.
05:32There was a couple around.
05:34But the other thing, I think, is that we had also, we had fun.
05:40Mm-hmm.
05:41That's right.
05:42We don't think they had any fun.
05:43We had a lot of fun playing ball.
05:45We actually had a fun game.
05:48Yeah.
05:48And we were serious.
05:50And I saw the fights and arguments and stuff like that.
05:52But that was because of desire and willingness.
05:55Mm-hmm.
05:56And somebody's laughing or something like that.
05:58And it was totally.
05:59Mm-hmm.
05:59But actually, basically, rather, I'd say it was a fun game.
06:05Yeah.
06:06I get the distinct impression that it's not really that same kind of fun game now,
06:11although it exists.
06:14And there are players that get a lot of fun out of the game.
06:17But they're not on the overall.
06:20Not on the overall.
06:21No.
06:22You're right.
06:26Do you think of any real funny incidents or happenings on or off the field bothering any
06:36of your teammates or yourself?
06:40Well, I was pitching a game one day in St. Louis when Pepper Martin was on third base.
06:45He was, you know, a great base runner.
06:48Mm-hmm.
06:48Great hustler.
06:48He's a gross type of golfer.
06:50Yes.
06:51And, uh, he's crancing up and down.
06:54And I cut one loose.
06:56And, uh, also being known as a little ride.
07:00And the ball's outside.
07:02And Lombardi just reached out there.
07:05And the big hand of his and put that ball barehanded and threw it back to me.
07:10And on the next pitch, uh, it was two strikes at the time.
07:14And on the next pitch, well, uh, he popped up and the inning was over.
07:18And I came back into the bank.
07:20And I says to him, listen, Lomb, if you don't start rubbing after catching me barehanded,
07:27the old man's going to take me out of there and think I'm losing my stuff.
07:30So at least rub your hand a little bit.
07:32Yeah.
07:32Yeah.
07:33But, uh, yeah, it was a lot of funny incidents, I guess, that, uh, everybody went through.
07:39And that was one of my experiences of it.
07:42You know, I haven't seen a catch reach out with his bare hand yet.
07:45Well, uh, I haven't seen a first baseman do it, but Charlie Graham used to do it, uh,
07:50particularly.
07:51And he told me about a pitcher that, uh, really, uh, zoomed a pick-off throw over to him one
07:59time
07:59with all he had on it.
08:01And it was wild.
08:02And Charlie just reached out barehanded and caught it.
08:04And the pitcher got mad at him.
08:05And he says, oh, my God, you're showing me up, catching my best pitch with your bare hand.
08:10We had a pitcher on the club one time at Red Bart.
08:14And he kept crossing Lombardi Ups all the time.
08:16You know, catchers don't like that.
08:18No.
08:18I don't blame them.
08:19No.
08:20And, uh, he just went out there and he told Bart, he says, now, from now on,
08:24the rest of the game, he says, we got no signs, so any damn thing you want.
08:27Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
08:29All right.
08:30Oh, well.
08:31Yeah.
08:31Yeah.
08:33All right.
08:34Now, uh, Judge Landis was still in power when you broke in for a few years thereafter.
08:43How would you compare him with the commissioners that have followed him?
08:50Well, Judge Landis was, uh, uh, kind of like Babe Ruth.
08:56Mm-hmm.
08:57He's one that comes along every hundred years.
08:59Mm-hmm.
09:00He had been a Supreme Court judge, and, uh, he came in the game to straighten out the fighters
09:08around handling, and he did it.
09:09He did it.
09:10And he also straightened out a bunch of owners.
09:12Mm-hmm.
09:14Uh, I think Happy Chandler was a good commissioner.
09:19Mm-hmm.
09:19Better than most people think.
09:21Happy, Happy, if you speak to the players, Happy, uh, got put out because he put, uh,
09:27the World Series money in escrow.
09:30Uh-huh.
09:30That's why Happy was actually probably put out, uh, when the players started to form their
09:35union, they wanted a cut of it.
09:37Uh-huh.
09:38And that money was put in escrow and held that money, and this is what the owners didn't
09:42like, so they put Happy out.
09:43Happy was, uh, uh, a great commissioner as far as this welfare was concerned.
09:50Mm-hmm.
09:51Uh, I think the commissioner who just left, uh, went through a different era of most any other
09:57commissioner.
09:58Yeah, he did.
09:59And, uh, I thought he did a, I thought he did a good job, and I, I'm sure that the
10:04owners know he did a good job.
10:06They do now.
10:07Once they got him out and tried to replace him.
10:09Yeah.
10:10Uh, he was, uh, a very, uh, knowledgeable individual who, uh, had no color.
10:19That's right.
10:21No color.
10:21Yeah.
10:22And he basically, I think, during that strike, he handled it very, very good.
10:30Uh, that was, uh, owner's, uh, situation to, uh, to settle, and that was not a commissioner's
10:53That's right.
10:53Yeah.
10:53Yeah.
10:54Since, uh, beginning this.
10:56Yeah.
10:56Since 1990.
10:57Yeah.
10:59I think there were two big decisions.
11:00I'm not, uh, Kuhn over in, uh, after I retired in Notre Dame, I, uh, took a job as, uh,
11:10executive
11:10director of foundation, private foundation in the Dominican Republic for three years.
11:17And, uh, Kuhn came over, and, uh, had Bobby Bergen with him, and I forget who else, and I was
11:25at a luncheon with him, and, uh, him formally got to talk with him quite a while.
11:28I was running across time.
11:30I, I, I got to know Kuhn very well.
11:32He shut her down in my hometown in New Jersey.
11:35That's how I got to know him quite well.
11:37And, uh, I talked to him about several things, and, uh, he was well-schooled before he took
11:45that job, much more so than any other commissioner.
11:48He would, he worked in the commissioner's office.
11:50I know.
11:50Uh, he was a brilliant lawyer himself.
11:53He was going out and make some money.
11:55Well, there were rumors that he may, would like to buy a major league franchise.
12:00Well, he, he, he'd like to do it.
12:02He'd like to do it.
12:03Yeah.
12:03He'd like to do it.
12:04I mean, he was, he was dedicated to the game, I mean.
12:07Uh, well, I guess, uh, the general, uh, for the commissioner was, uh, you can take
12:15better than you can take men.
12:16I don't know how they did that.
12:18Well, that was a, that was a rookie deal.
12:20Yeah.
12:20Yeah, that was a deal, that was an O'Malley deal.
12:22Yeah, O'Malley.
12:23O'Malley.
12:24Swallowed deal.
12:25A Ford Frick was fair, I guess.
12:28Not outstanding.
12:29Anyway.
12:30Frick was in there a long time.
12:32Mm-hmm.
12:33He didn't have, there wasn't too many problems.
12:35Well, Frick's day.
12:36No.
12:37He didn't get to prove whether he could handle it or not.
12:39I'm sure.
12:40This new guy, your boss, uh, may, uh, be a pretty good fellow in there.
12:46Uh, I hope, anyway.
12:48Well, he'll be the first commissioner.
12:51Uh, I'm only assuming this.
12:53Uh, that might be on the corny side.
12:58Uh, he, uh, did a fantastic job in the Olympics, which needed a little corny or promotional.
13:05Sure did.
13:07I'll use the word promotional.
13:10He, uh, he did a fantastic job in the Olympics.
13:15Oh, no doubt.
13:17Oh, yeah.
13:18No doubt.
13:18So, uh, you'll have to wait to see, that's all.
13:21Mm-hmm.
13:25Well, I really appreciate you taking this time to chat with me, Johnny, and, uh, I wish you
13:33were all the best.
13:35Well, baseball was good to me.
13:37Gave me my start.
13:38Gave me my second start.
13:39Actually, it was through my second start, but, uh, I got, I mean, I got my second start
13:44through baseball.
13:46Uh, I'm basically Italian brewery, man, not a, not a baseball player.
13:52Yeah.
13:52Uh, but, uh, the point is that, uh, baseball is good to me, and, uh, I'll never mock him.
13:59Great.
14:00I'll never mock him, but I want to see the day that Ernie Gombardo meets in Ohio.
14:06I'd like to think that's going to be real soon.
14:08And I'll be there.
14:09Yeah.
14:09Great.
14:11I, uh, have been up to the last two summers, two of the last, no, the last two summers,
14:16I've been to the Hall of Fame Cooperstown there, but not at the time they had the induction.
14:22I'd like to be there sometime when they induct.
14:24Well, I was there when they dedicated you.
14:26Yeah.
14:26Two parts of each club.
14:27Yeah.
14:28On 35, or 49?
14:3038.
14:31Yeah.
14:31Two parts of each club.
14:33Now, Terry Moore was there, too.
14:34Yeah.
14:34Two parts of each club.
14:35Mom was supposed to go with me.
14:37Yeah.
14:38And he, uh, stepped on a, he was getting ready to go to, to the train.
14:43And he stepped on a, a board in a shower room, and went up, a stroke, and narrowed up his
14:48foot, so Jimmy Wilson was a coach.
14:50Yeah.
14:50Yeah.
14:52Jimmy had really came through, uh, after he thought he was retired.
14:56In the 40 series, didn't he?
14:58Yeah, he did.
14:58He, he, he, he did the job in the series.
15:00Yeah.
15:00Yeah.
15:01Yeah, they had to be done, and he did it.
15:03He had good leadership qualities.
15:07Yep.
15:09All right.
15:09Well, turn it off.
15:17Um, thank you very much.
15:18Thank you so much.
15:19How am I, Dr.
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