- 3 months ago
The hotel fire in Delhi's Malviya Nagar that claimed twenty-one lives on Wednesday has sparked a debate over systemic corruption, civic negligence, and the lack of accountability among authorities.
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00:00Okay, let's raise the big question then on our top talking point.
00:03Will anyone be held accountable for what happened in the national capital?
00:07Why are cities still dead traps?
00:09Is corruption the root cause of it?
00:12Joining me now is Priyanka Kakkad, national spokesperson Aap.
00:16Charu Pragya is national spokesperson BJP.
00:19Also joined by Yashobarda Nazar, former IPS officer.
00:24And joining me also are Krishnamurthy, General Secretary Association of the Victims of the Upar Tragedy.
00:30Appreciate all of you joining us.
00:32Before I come to the politics, I want to come to you, Mr. Krishnamurthy, because for you it's extremely personal.
00:38You and your wife fought remarkably to ensure justice for the Upar fire tragedy victims.
00:45When you now see this play out, do you feel that there will be justice done in cases like this?
00:50Or is the system and even the media just going to move on to the next story once the headlines,
00:57once it goes off the headlines?
01:03You are right Rajiv, it's going to be 29 years, we are going to complete 29 years on the 13th
01:07of June this year.
01:10And you are seeing us, we are still in courts.
01:15Just as a distance reality, people have to have a lot of patience and perseverance.
01:21We have been at it for the last 29 years and actually nothing has changed.
01:25And after losing our children, we thought that we will bring some changes so that no other parents, they will
01:31lose their children.
01:34And they won't, you know, see the plight at which we are living, we don't want them to live in
01:41the same way.
01:42So, after seeing this tragedy, it's a deja vu moment for us and the same, similar situation, Rajdeep.
01:48You know, in 97, Upar had extra seats, here they have extra rooms.
01:54In Upar, there, one exit and one entry, here also the same story.
01:59There, they put mattress for people to jump from the second floor, same issue here.
02:04The Delhi fire service was, you know, inadequate, you know, like what it was in 97, even today, they are
02:11well ill-equipped.
02:12So, what changes we are talking about, we have seen after Upar, we have seen so many fire tragedies, so
02:18many fire tragedies, nothing has been learned.
02:19It will be just, you rightly said, people will talk about it for one week, it will be business as
02:24usual once, you know, everything comes down.
02:27Once media stops reporting this, it will be a business altogether, it will be the same.
02:31This is all due to corruption, Rajdeep, absolute corruption.
02:34You mean to say that bed and breakfast units are supposed to have only six rooms and this guy had
02:4125 rooms.
02:43How come it was, you know, like the MCD had put a blind eye, the Delhi fire service had put
02:47a blind eye, the police had put a blind eye.
02:49Where is it? It's all corruption. And it's going to go, and the corruption is going to the top.
02:55It's not going to stop, Rajdeep. It's, it's, you know, it's in a, you know, like people, it's in a
02:59blood now.
02:59The corruption is then in the blood. Nobody is going to stop this. It's going to happen.
03:04You're saying there are payoffs.
03:05After two months, you'll see another accident like this.
03:08You believe that there are payoffs that are made to these civic officials to allow these buildings to continue without
03:14proper fire safety rules?
03:17In Upahar, in Upahar, in Upahar, in Upahar cinema, the NOC was given by an officer who was on a
03:22casual leave.
03:23He was convicted finally by the Supreme Court.
03:25Unfortunately, Supreme Court did not take the, though they had said, we had proved the case beyond reasonable doubt.
03:30But they, they, they let off Ansel because of the old age.
03:33And this man also, the fire service man was asked to pay 10 lakh rupees to Delhi government.
03:37And Ansel's were asked to pay 60 crores to Delhi government for a trauma center in 2015.
03:41And trauma center is yet to be seen.
03:43Where, where is the trauma center?
03:44What is the government doing?
03:45We are, we are, now we have come to know when we wrote an application in the Supreme Court that
03:48they put it in the budget allocation.
03:50This is, is this the way that they, they, they, they, they, they, you know, like, they, they, they going
03:53to, you know, like,
03:56adhere to the directions of the Supreme Court?
03:59How are people, people are not going to learn.
04:00Everybody is complacent in this Rajdeep.
04:03I'm sorry to say.
04:03Whether it is police or whether it is corporation or whether it is PWD, whoever it is, Delhi fire service,
04:10everybody is complacent in this.
04:12I'm saying this with a lot of responsibility.
04:14I've seen this for last 29 years.
04:17You know, Yashu Vardhan Azad, you want to respond to what, I'll come to the politicians at last, but you
04:23want to respond.
04:24Is this a classic case where local officials, including the police, including those in civic bodies like MCDN, we are
04:37focusing on Delhi, but this could be true of the entire country.
04:39Do you believe that the charge which is being made of, of not just negligence, but willful culpability is true?
04:49Yes, I think, I appreciate the frustration expressed by Mr. Krishnamurthy.
04:54And let me tell you that we all know the reasons, you know, the fire, the MCD.
04:59Now, what is the reason?
05:00Why do the enforcement officers don't enforce what they are supposed to do?
05:05Three reasons.
05:06One is the political pressure.
05:07You know, local politicians always oppose ceiling drives because commercial establishment, great employment, vote banks, they get the money.
05:19Second is the economic pressure.
05:21You know, the entire local economies which thrive in this particular area, they depend on non-compliant structures, all of
05:30them.
05:30And third is the corruption pressure.
05:33In fact, one of the anchors on your program only said that the inspections which are taking place, they are
05:40basically rent-seeking exercise.
05:42Why?
05:43Because, you know, all the governments are culpable.
05:45On that particular road, Rajdeep, you put five hospitals, sake courts, couple of malls, and against, on the other side,
05:57an encroached entire village which has encroached the road.
06:01And then you put in hotels over there.
06:03Tell me which hotel will fulfill all the requirements by the fire or any kind of system.
06:12It's impossible.
06:13And that's why you remember the basement tragedy which took place, the flooding of water.
06:20What happened in the inquiry?
06:22Nothing happened.
06:23And therefore, it's a sense of deja vu.
06:26Okay, another one will come.
06:27And as you said, in one week, it will pass off.
06:31You know, the important thing is, is it difficult for a left-wing governor or the MCD chief in this
06:37age of satellite mapping to say,
06:39okay, I want all the hotels which don't have the fire clearance, which don't have the MCD clearance.
06:48Is it difficult?
06:49No.
06:50Okay.
06:50The MCD chairman has to go to the left-wing governor and say that I can't work under this pressure.
06:57Otherwise, these are 90% of this are illegal and they should be scrammed off absolutely.
07:04This is the problem.
07:05Okay, so we're coming back.
07:07Let's turn to the politicians because we've focused on the cops for a moment, on the local officials.
07:14But at the end of the day, Charu Pragya, the government of Delhi claims that, you know, they're going to
07:19build a new Delhi.
07:20This is how you all came to power.
07:22And yet, the Delhi fire chief, Atul Garg, has stated nearly 70% of the city falls under unauthorized, not
07:30designed for current commercial use.
07:32And what has happened in this particular area could be happening in any part of the city.
07:37Show me what the government has done.
07:39What has the government done?
07:41Now it's saying, you know, that we've introduced sweeping amendments to the fire safety rules.
07:47Does it require a fire for this government to wake up?
07:50The government didn't wake up after a fire, Rajdi.
07:54And please allow me to put some points across.
07:56And I say this with utmost responsibility and a lot of remorse.
08:00Because innocent lives have been lost which could have been saved if for decades Delhi would have grown the way
08:07the people of Delhi deserved for it to have grown
08:09when it comes to infrastructure, when it comes to basic civil amenities.
08:13The fire service amendment rules were amended last year, Rajdi.
08:17In May 2025, this is not in reaction to the fire this time.
08:22The B&B policy was also scraped over a month ago.
08:26It was not done in reaction to this unfortunate fire tragedy that occurred.
08:30And the new policy draft had also been uploaded online for everybody to see.
08:35That exists.
08:36But what is the point of having these new policies, ma'am?
08:38No, but you have to walk the talk, no?
08:40Where is the modernizing of inspections?
08:43Where is the improved monitoring?
08:44Where is your emergency response system?
08:47I mean, it cannot be.
08:48I put something on a piece of paper and that's it.
08:51No, no, absolutely not.
08:51The fact is nothing has changed on the ground.
08:53No, Rajdi, absolutely not.
08:55And I'm not saying that at all.
08:57And please understand that the government is taking every single bit of its responsibility very seriously.
09:03And what is our responsibility today?
09:05Our responsibility today is to first investigate, prosecute, whoever it is,
09:10whether it is owner, manager or official, make sure compensation is given
09:14and then reforms are done on ground.
09:16These reforms started a year ago when our party came into power.
09:20And I've told you date-wise when something started.
09:23Ma'am, this area has a BJP MLA building, operating 25 rooms against a license of only six
09:28with clear fire safety violations.
09:30Are we saying the local MLA had no idea about this?
09:33The local corporators again of the BJP had no idea about it?
09:36So that is what I'm coming to.
09:38See, we have a system where license are being given out.
09:41And these license were given out unfairly for the longest time.
09:44And you remember the tragedies in Bawana, in Arpit Palace, in Filmistan, Mundka, Vivek Vihar.
09:49How were these certificates given?
09:51And all of this needs to come to a full stop when the government in the state is going to
09:56take hard action,
09:57which this government has started taking.
09:59There is going to be a massive ceiling drive over the last one month.
10:02There is absolutely zero tolerance to something like this.
10:06And yes, today the MLA is ours.
10:07But you know what?
10:08MLA, 15 minutes after the tragedy, was there on site.
10:12Ten police personnel were hospitalized because they were part of the rescue operation.
10:16So many bhajpa karekartas also were a part of the rescue operation.
10:20But the point today here is that a criminal act and every act of negligence by a private operator
10:26cannot become a space where political opportunism starts,
10:31where opposition parties are looking for headlines which are political in nature,
10:35which are not reformative in nature.
10:37That is what I have a problem with, Rajdeep.
10:39And why must I not have a problem with that?
10:41You know, because when you are in opposition, you would also take on the BJP government.
10:46I recall, for example, on the basement, the AAP government on the basement tragedy.
10:50But Priyanka Kakkar, you see, it seems to be a case of more things change,
10:54the more they remain the same.
10:55We can go back to the Uphah tragedy as Mr. Krishnamurthy did
10:58and we can look at what's happened in this hotel, motel now.
11:02The truth of the matter is, there is something seriously wrong with systems.
11:06It's a systemic failure where corruption is the root cause.
11:10Your party came to power saying we'll wipe out corruption.
11:13Truth is, you couldn't touch the local bodies.
11:20Rajdeepji, two, three things here.
11:21You know that Delhi's polity is four-tiered.
11:27And currently, all the four tiers lie with the BJP.
11:30I mean, I don't want to...
11:31This is a fact.
11:32I'll have to state this.
11:33That for the past 20 years, MCD, which is the sole authority for granting these licenses,
11:39has been majorly under the BJP for an exception of about one and a half years in between when we
11:44had it.
11:44Having said that also, Rajdeepji, being from Delhi, I can assure you,
11:48agar aap apne ghar ke bhaar ek eet bhi rakh denge for a legal construction also,
11:52you will see many MCD adhikaris come and inspect ki aap kya bana rhe ho, kya nahi bana rhe ho.
11:57So, it is impossible that the BJP or their MLA did not know about the expansion of from 6 to
12:0425.
12:05Now, you know, they will again do an inquiry.
12:08They will do the inquiry for the Goa nightclub owners who also, after the fire,
12:11were able to run away, take a flight when there was a flight fiasco going on.
12:17But they managed to take flights out of India.
12:18I can count incident of Bihar today where four children died in a fire, four or five.
12:23And the value of life has been assessed at 4 lakh rupees.
12:26The problem is that this government does not own, does not accept its mistakes.
12:33So, responsibility and accountability doesn't come into the picture only.
12:36And it is not just Delhi, it is all over India today.
12:39Also, one problem that we are consistently seeing for the past six months at least, Rajdeepji,
12:45whether it was the Vivek Vihar fire tragedy or the Shastri Pak fire tragedy
12:51or the Palam Vihar tragedy or the ex-IS officer
12:55who recently perished in a fire in Malvenagar about a week ago.
12:59All of these have one thing in common that the fire brigade,
13:02the response time was more than an hour which is extremely shameful.
13:07And once the fire brigade reaches, the hydraulic lift is not working
13:11or the water pressure is not adequate or there is some issue with the fire brigade
13:18which is very unfortunate and somebody has to be taken to task for this.
13:22You know, in the developed countries, the response time…
13:28Who is going to be taken to task is the question.
13:31Now, in this case, of course, the hotel owner has been arrested.
13:34Question is, when will the arrest take place of the officials
13:37and those within the system who actually allow this to happen?
13:42That is the worry.
13:43That, you see, it's very…
13:45The hotel owner has been arrested.
13:47Good.
13:47What about those who allowed the hotel to function?
13:51Yashu Vardhan Azad, isn't that part of the problem?
13:53That you never really strike.
13:55And those who should be held accountable,
13:58who allow this hotel owner to have six rooms go up to 25.
14:02Yes, absolutely.
14:04And let me give you an example.
14:05The famous NT and the CBSE case,
14:08there were two IIS officers who were transferred.
14:11They have got better postings.
14:12The two new are again IIS officers.
14:16And by the way, the inquiry has been conducted
14:19by another IIS officer who is retired.
14:22Now, tell me something, Rajdeep.
14:24The MCD chief who is an IIS officer,
14:28can't he get in one hour the list of all such establishments
14:34in which there are no NOCs given by the fire services
14:39or in which the violations have been there,
14:42whether they have been compounded or not?
14:44No.
14:45It's a question of spine and guts.
14:48And the left-hand governor is the man
14:50who is responsible for all this.
14:52He can do it in a day if he wants to.
14:55The question is the political pressure
14:57and all the governments have been responsible.
15:00Look at the DDA for planning that road
15:03and half-encroached road,
15:05which contains the courts, the malls,
15:08and all the hospitals.
15:09Yeah, but part of the problem, of course,
15:13is multiplicity of authorities.
15:15And we are seeing that in every city.
15:17Every authority, therefore,
15:18passes the buck on to the next.
15:20In Delhi, you'll have MCD, DDA.
15:21In Mumbai, also, various authorities operate.
15:24And therefore, when it comes to civic issues,
15:27no one is accountable.
15:28When you saw this, Mr. Krishnamurti,
15:30did you feel that there was a sense
15:32that no one was accountable?
15:33Everyone was passing the buck.
15:36In Upar case, that's exactly what happened.
15:39No one, where was,
15:40where, according to you,
15:41does the buck stop in a case like this?
15:47See, Rajdeep, before that,
15:49I want to say that all the politicians,
15:51again, the blame game has started already.
15:52You said that the owner is arrested.
15:55Now, he's already said that, you know,
15:57all his management,
15:58everything was looked after by one Mr. J. Mishra.
16:00Now, all this thing will go on in the court.
16:02And it's, you know,
16:03this man will get a bail within 10 to 15 days
16:05or maybe within two months.
16:07And the case will drag on for 10 years, 15 years.
16:10And I rightly said that who's,
16:12like, that's what we've been fighting for.
16:14The authorities have to be held responsible.
16:17I know, I know,
16:18I've heard what Mr. Azad said,
16:19but there is no will to do anything.
16:22There are,
16:22I've seen a lot of inquiry reports.
16:24Even in Upar case,
16:25there was an inquiry report
16:26which was very well written by an IS officer
16:28who was a deputy commissioner south.
16:30And we used that inquiry report
16:33to file our civil writ
16:34and it was appreciated by,
16:35even by the Supreme Court.
16:36But now,
16:37most of the inquiry reports
16:39are collecting dust
16:40in some obscure corner of the ministry.
16:42We have been advocating for a law
16:45for almost 10 years
16:46that bring in a special law
16:48to deal with such man-made disasters
16:49so that people don't get bail.
16:51At least the minimum punishment
16:53should be 10 years.
16:54and the law commission passed it.
16:56Again,
16:56we've been contacting the law ministers
16:58in Congress government
17:00and this government also
17:01for the last 10 years.
17:02There is no response.
17:03There is no will to do anything,
17:05Rajdeep.
17:06And I'm sorry to say,
17:08you know,
17:08human life,
17:10human life is cheap today.
17:12You give 10 lakh rupees,
17:132 lakh rupees,
17:14think that,
17:14oh,
17:14the person from the family
17:15are ready to receive
17:16this 10 lakh rupees,
17:172 lakh rupees
17:18so that the people die in the house,
17:20in the family.
17:22Just imagine
17:23what would have happened
17:23to Mr. Sanjay Gupta's house
17:25where 7 people lost the loved ones.
17:30Even uphar,
17:30the families have been wiped out.
17:33Nothing has happened.
17:35All this money,
17:35ex gratia
17:36and the compensation amount
17:39should be used
17:39for improving the fire safety.
17:42Fire safety matters, Rajdeep.
17:44Every life matters.
17:46Every two months,
17:47we are seeing fire tragedies,
17:49people are dying.
17:49Even today in Bihar,
17:504 children have died.
17:52Now,
17:53you know,
17:54like 6 months back,
17:55there was an accident
17:56in the restaurant,
17:5717 people died.
17:58What happens?
17:58Every time they come and say,
18:00yeh hoga,
18:00yeh hoga,
18:01but all salta hai attitude.
18:03Kuch nai hoga.
18:04They'll all forget.
18:05Moment,
18:05they'll say that
18:05the matter has gone to the court,
18:07they'll say,
18:07oh,
18:08the matter is subjudiced,
18:09we can't do anything.
18:10No,
18:10the matter is in the court,
18:11we can't do anything.
18:12Okay.
18:12So now,
18:12what will happen?
18:13Now,
18:13these people,
18:14I don't know
18:14how many victims
18:15are going to go to the court.
18:16Now,
18:17these people go to the court,
18:18they're going to depend,
18:18the first thing they have to do
18:19is get a special public prosecutor
18:21to face the senior lawyers
18:23whom the owner is going to bring.
18:27I take your point.
18:29I know it's an uneven battle
18:30often for victims
18:31and a long battle
18:33and a torturous one.
18:34I know you fought it bravely.
18:35I don't know how many else can.
18:36But we want accountability.
18:37I think at the end of the day,
18:39our stories
18:39and this discussion
18:40is only focusing on
18:42one issue,
18:43accountability.
18:43Unless you have exemplar
18:45accountability
18:46in cases like this,
18:47this will keep happening
18:49in this country
18:50and it is unacceptable.
18:52The buck must stop somewhere
18:54and the system
18:55cannot simply pass it
18:56from one official
18:59to another
18:59or one department
19:00to another.
19:02Surely,
19:03the monies
19:04can be spent
19:05of taxpayers
19:06into having
19:06a proper fire safety audit
19:08in a city like this
19:10and make those details
19:11out in the public.
19:12That's the very least
19:14that we can expect
19:15from those in government
19:16promising us
19:17good government,
19:19good governance rather.
19:20What we need therefore
19:21is good governance
19:23above all else.
19:24I thank my guests
19:24for joining me
19:25on the show tonight.
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