L'intervista di Francesca Fagnani a Soter Mulè, condannato per l'omicidio di Paola Caputo, una studentessa pugliese di ventiquattro anni, durante un gioco erotico tra il 9 e il 10 settembre 2011
#Belve #BelveCrime #Crime #TrueCrime #Delitti #Misteri #Killer #SerialKiller #ColdCase #Cronaca #CronacaNera #Mistero #Delitto #Documentari #Documentario #Docu #Doc #DivinumCrime
#Belve #BelveCrime #Crime #TrueCrime #Delitti #Misteri #Killer #SerialKiller #ColdCase #Cronaca #CronacaNera #Mistero #Delitto #Documentari #Documentario #Docu #Doc #DivinumCrime
Categoria
📺
TVTrascrizione
00:00The next guest is Soter Moulet, a Roman engineer convicted of manslaughter,
00:06for an erotic game gone terribly wrong, one September night in a garage on the outskirts of town.
00:12A 24-year-old girl, Paola Caputo, died of asphyxiation.
00:17We welcome and good evening to Soter Moulet.
00:21Thank you, good evening.
00:24Listen, first of all Soter Moulet, what does your name mean?
00:28Soter, from ancient Greek, Soter means savior.
00:34And then life turned out differently than its name suggests, at least in one important episode that concerned it.
00:45You're an engineer. At the time, you worked in IT security. What do you do now?
00:54I continue to work in cybersecurity on those rare occasions when I am called.
01:00Rarely because he says you have difficulty working?
01:03Since those events, I have had difficulty relating to people, to work, to colleagues.
01:13And is it yours, excuse me if I ask, is it a personal difficulty of yours or do you feel prejudiced against you?
01:20I definitely feel uncomfortable.
01:22You are here this evening because in 2016 you were definitively convicted of manslaughter,
01:31for what happened on a September night in 2011,
01:35during a threesome bondage session, a session in which Paola Caputo lost her life,
01:42a 24 year old girl, but in the meantime I wanted to ask you, do you still think about that evening and Paola?
01:53I think about it sometimes, at times even obsessively, more than about that evening,
01:58right to the moments just before and to those moments.
02:02Guilt is now part of his existence, of his life, of his daily routine.
02:08or isn't guilt something else?
02:10Guilt about what?
02:13My personal sense of guilt regarding the incident was, however, not having saved Paola.
02:20It's a tragedy anyway, obviously.
02:23She died in my arms, that is, for me that remains the thing, the impossible thing to get over.
02:32Anyway, you were arrested pretty much shortly after the events, right?
02:38A few hours after the events.
02:39I immediately called the ambulance, they found that it was the worst moment of all,
02:46Paola's death, because up until that moment I had tried...
02:49He tried to revive her, but now we're getting there gradually so we go in...
02:52Then the police actually arrested me.
02:55So let's say you were arrested almost immediately, you were tried with an abbreviated procedure?
03:00I asked for an abbreviated trial for reasons other than the penalty, but to plausibly avoid a trial.
03:07open doors
03:09which was not meant to happen for...
03:12For privacy reasons.
03:14For the two people involved, for the families of the two people involved.
03:18And for her too, I guess, right?
03:20No.
03:21She was sentenced to four years and eight months and then had her sentence reduced to three years,
03:28Right?
03:29Yes.
03:30But you were actually only in prison for three days, right?
03:37For three nights and then served the rest of his sentence under house arrest.
03:43I repeat, we haven't gotten into the facts yet, but from what he feels,
03:49After all these years, do you feel you have paid for what happened?
03:54Right or wrong?
03:57You see, these are two very different feelings.
04:02On the one hand, the fact that a careful reading of the autopsy makes it very clear
04:08that there was no murder, there was no definitive sign,
04:15not even one of the many signs needed to determine that a hanging has occurred
04:20as the technical term.
04:21There was actually an autopsy which spoke of mechanical asphyxia due to strangulation,
04:29from an abnormal hanging.
04:31There is no definitive sign, there are none, I don't know, I give her petechiae,
04:37there are no cerebral blood extravasations, there are none of those definitive signs.
04:43While there are very clear signs of an alternative hypothesis,
04:48that is, that Paola could suffer from an illness that she had already caused,
04:54then it was discovered, then I was told, of very serious illnesses in the weeks just before,
05:00such as the weight of the heart, 380 grams.
05:03Because Paola weighed 100 kg, then, but I look at the question,
05:07It wasn't a question about the technical evidence, it was about his feelings.
05:13On the one hand I know I haven't killed anyone,
05:17on the other hand it is impossible for me to overcome my sense of guilt,
05:23which has nothing to do with what is right, with what is possible,
05:26with what can be done and what cannot be done,
05:28of not having saved her regardless, however.
05:33I mean, anyway, a person died in my arms
05:37and I couldn't do enough.
05:39And she does.
05:41Before, after, during, I don't care.
05:43And then we go in, we say that she couldn't do enough
05:47because he didn't even have the tools he should have had for the scissors.
05:52But now slowly, in any case before entering into the dynamics of that night,
05:58Let's understand what bondage is, to understand exactly what we're talking about.
06:04Meanwhile, bondage is part of the broader BDSM universe.
06:10BDSM.
06:11Can you explain the acronym to me, can you help me understand it?
06:14Bondage BDDomination Sadomasochism.
06:18Bondage Domination Sadomasochism.
06:22So can we say that bondage is a sadomasochistic practice?
06:26Absolutely yes.
06:27She said, through bondage I understood my true nature.
06:33What was its real nature?
06:35Certainly the whole sadomasochistic universe for me was my way of loving.
06:44That is, love cannot be restricted to a series of canons considered normal.
06:50My way of loving has always been to give unconditionally to make the other person feel as good as possible.
07:00These are practices that also involve domination, so let's say I imagine that his pleasure also came not only from how
07:08there was the other person,
07:09but from how she was, from what she felt, it was basically sadomasochism.
07:13My personal pleasure has always been above all the pleasure of the other person.
07:21I mean, it was just an altruistic act, I mean, she must have had some personal enjoyment because...
07:25My personal enjoyment came from the empathy with which you receive so much from the other person his well-being,
07:35her being happy, her being satisfied, her being in some ways even fulfilled.
07:39How did you first come into contact with that world and at what age?
07:45It's something that I've always had with a different awareness, less awareness.
07:52What do I mean? That it's an awareness?
07:55For me, it has always been impossible to separate sex and the sexual sphere from these themes.
08:03And when did we say he started practicing?
08:09When you were very young?
08:11Since I've been with people who saw things the same way as me, who felt the same emotions, who wanted to feel those
08:21emotions.
08:22Well, then I ask you a question and I take it differently.
08:25How did you recognize each other? In the sense that she sought out community online, on websites, in clubs?
08:32How did you understand each other?
08:33From a practical point of view, it was when I, being with a person, perceived that his sexual sphere
08:40he was coming in,
08:42he was sensitive, excuse the pun, to those strings.
08:45Definitely when I was young.
08:46You when you were young?
08:47She said that as a child, since elementary school, she already felt an attraction to knots.
08:55Yes.
08:56What does it mean?
08:59That since I was a child the idea of tying, understanding what tying was, was something that was already very
09:07active in me.
09:08Obviously there was no sexual dimension to this, but obviously, but and so he played with knots?
09:18I didn't understand this.
09:20Yes.
09:21Listen, besides bondage, what other types are there?
09:25Bonding is the thing I came to the latest, which requires the most skill, which requires the most study, which
09:32It requires more patience.
09:33He had already experimented with the other practices previously, before bondage.
09:39Yes.
09:40There are courses, right? There are also performances. So, from this perspective, can you explain what happens in bondage?
09:50Doctor, there is certainly a sadomasochistic community present, it is part of our society.
09:57There are many people who live without being part of the sadomasochistic community.
10:02Relationships that would be defined by someone as not normal, where there is a component that can be one of domination, that
10:08it can be one of submission, which can be one of control,
10:15that is important to them and that is part of their life, as a couple, as a marriage, as what it is.
10:21Are these clandestine courses? Well, it's not a regulated practice; there's no federation.
10:28I understand they are illegal immigrants.
10:30Listen, when did the events of the night of September 9, 2011, occur, when did these private facts become
10:41news stories about what happened,
10:43Many details have also emerged, obviously, concerning her, concerning her life.
10:49And it was said that she, in Roman circles, was very much, those linked to alternative sex, let's say, no, to sex
10:57extreme, she was very well known.
11:00They wrote her name and her snapshots, because she also did a lot, she had a passion for applied photography
11:07also in this area,
11:08his name and his snapshots are often associated with events dedicated to extreme sex practices,
11:16of which he appears to be one of the first-rank Roman representatives.
11:22He says, he's being modest.
11:23No, it's not that...
11:25I was certainly not made a Knight of the Republic for something like that.
11:30No, I can imagine that, but in the sense that he was known in the circles, in the sense that he was an exponent...
11:37My acquaintances knew me.
11:39Okay.
11:41Can you actually have sex during bondage?
11:48You've been through both, I imagine, haven't you?
11:51Absolutely yes.
11:51She said, I discovered that during bondage the emotional exchange between the one who ties and the one who is tied is
12:00very strong.
12:01It takes respect, it takes trust, it takes love.
12:05Now, I wanted to ask her if she couldn't find this respect, trust and love in a sexual relationship,
12:14let's say, that it wasn't related to sadomato sex.
12:18Certain.
12:19I mean, he was paid anyway.
12:21The moment a couple is made up of two people, it is a couple.
12:27If two people want to go out to eat fish tonight, they both want to and go out to eat fish.
12:32But then, let's put it this way, according to your comparison, that is, you chose people who loved both situations: eating fish.
12:43vegan,
12:44or if they were only vegan, would they not have been found?
12:46No, I had absolutely peaceful relationships in both houses.
12:50In both houses, even with women who did not practice sadomatomy.
12:53Absolutely.
12:55Listen, explain to me, because there are specific names in the roles required by bondage.
13:02I mean, a lot of talk about labeling, yes.
13:06Well, roles, right? More than role labels.
13:09The rigger, if I'm not mistaken.
13:11The rigger is the one who ties.
13:13And who is tied?
13:15Bans?
13:15It's very popular, I don't know anymore, it was very popular to say Banni, if she's a woman or in any case to say
13:20Banni, if he is one of those people who satisfies, by being tied up, he truly satisfies a desire of his.
13:29That is, it emphasizes the fact that that person may not be interested at all in pain, domination, and so on.
13:35go away.
13:35He really likes that.
13:36To be tied up.
13:37To be tied up.
13:38And at the bottom, what does that mean?
13:40It is the person who is submissive at that moment.
13:43I understand.
13:45Look, what about you, it's still a power game, right?
13:49Obviously, whoever accepts to be tied up at that moment consciously loses partial control over himself,
13:58which is obviously entrusted to the other person who in some way, binding, having the power to bind a person, remaining
14:07free, subdue.
14:09Is this a power play?
14:12Explicitly, in a way that makes it impossible to deny the power games that take place between people.
14:20She has always tied, since she says that roles can change, has she always tied or has it been
14:27also tied?
14:28It happened.
14:30What was tied?
14:31As women?
14:33From men.
14:34From men.
14:35So you practiced with both women and men?
14:41I did it once by myself, in public, I tied myself up in public, twice I think
14:50'inside the courses, I agreed to be tied up.
14:54And instead in intimacy not in courses?
14:57It has never happened, I have never met a person with whom this could be good, good for
15:04both, etc., etc.
15:05So the reality that, let's say, apart from reasons of educational courses, let's put it this way, and of exhibition, then in private
15:13she never got tied up, she only tied up.
15:15It never happened.
15:16So in power games it has never happened, but generally, as she says, emotion leads her more to
15:23Do you want to hold power and see the other person tied down or not?
15:29Excuse me, to understand.
15:31No, no, the question is interesting.
15:34In the end, the truth is, this is the truth, I've always found myself on that side of the fence.
15:41Look, I'm only telling you this because this is public and these are filed documents.
15:47All the objects found in your car were transcribed in the seizure report, right?
15:54Which were various sextoi in the shape of a phallus, twelve ropes, masks, balls, clitoral stimulators, equipped with electric shocks.
16:05Absolutely not this.
16:08Absolutely not the one equipped with electric shock.
16:11Wasn't there?
16:12Guarantor.
16:13No, okay, don't even imagine.
16:14Imagine that 15 years later it can change me.
16:17No, no, no.
16:18And these were all the materials used during the practice?
16:25Sometimes, sometimes, sometimes.
16:28Outside, let's say, of this world, what kind of life did she lead?
16:34I went to work, if I was in a relationship with someone, I had my life as a couple.
16:38And was he in a stable relationship?
16:40No, absolutely not.
16:41No?
16:41I wasn't in any relationship at the time.
16:43His education was predominantly Catholic and religious.
16:48I have always been in religious institutions.
16:52And was he happy with that kind of education?
16:54I don't know anything else.
16:56Have you ever felt any form of repression?
17:01No.
17:02No.
17:04So many of my personal choices, including my view on love,
17:09she is Catholic, Christian, Catholic.
17:13Well, excuse me, Mr. Chiedo, but the vision of love within the Catholic world
17:18it is a procreative vision.
17:20It's certainly not a leisurely vision, much less leisure at that level.
17:26No?
17:26Sadomasochism and sex.
17:28Extreme mistake.
17:29Sex.
17:29I spoke about love.
17:31However, she said that she has often influenced some of her life choices
17:34to the vision of Catholic love,
17:38as per tradition and the Catholic religion.
17:40But that tradition, in the most conservative sense of the term, the most traditional,
17:44provides that sex is only for procreative purposes.
17:48So I don't think he really aimed it that way, right?
17:52So, in the meantime if...
17:57I'm not telling you this in a judgmental way, am I?
17:58No, no, I don't perceive any judgment, especially towards me.
18:03If anything, it would be with respect to Catholic doctrine.
18:06Catholic doctrine is much more complicated than that.
18:09It's not possible to reduce it exactly the way she does.
18:12This was one of those moments when life taught me to be secular,
18:18because I met people who found this vision so restrictive
18:25to make her feel physically ill and above all psychologically ill.
18:30That is, without questioning...
18:32And is she among these people?
18:36For a while, yes.
18:38I was supposed to arrive at the wedding a virgin.
18:41Listen, during that period, when everything happened,
18:44Was she on redundancy because that's what they wrote or not?
18:47No, I had started working again.
18:49She was 43 years old.
18:51Was he independent or did he live at his parents' house?
18:54After the end of a love relationship I returned to my parents' house.
18:58That night she was with Paola, but also with another girl
19:02whose name is Federica. Federica was 23 and Paola was 24.
19:08How did he meet them?
19:10Well, I had only known Federica for a relatively short time.
19:12at a mutual acquaintance's birthday party
19:16and Paola we have known each other for two, three years.
19:21There was a significant age gap, you know, about twenty years, right?
19:26Which aren't few. What did you have in common? Why did you hang out?
19:33Because we got along well together.
19:35It was written that Federica had had some problems with drugs
19:41and that he frequented it, like you too, then tell me if it's true or not,
19:46the CESP, which is the popular psychological center of Torbella Monaca.
19:50Both of these are new news to me and to you.
19:56But I'm not her biographer, so I could be wrong.
19:59but I'm sure about myself.
20:01And is it true that Federica had some drug problems?
20:07Because this also emerged from the story of Federica's friends.
20:11Evidently their friends, his friends will have had something to say.
20:15Was Paola a student?
20:17He was starting to study again. He wanted to study again.
20:21What was he studying?
20:23Letters.
20:24In Rome, but she came from a small town in the province of Lecce
20:30and had temporarily stopped studying,
20:34He worked in a call center and was not happy at that point in his life.
20:39This is what her parents say, and she told a little bit about it too, right?
20:43When it was heard.
20:46he was happy with his life, but he realized,
20:50she had realized it on her own,
20:52that his life could be more beautiful, better.
20:56Here is the real tragedy that is not talked about,
20:58it's Paola's death,
21:00It is the life cut short of a person who was beginning to blossom again.
21:05I mean, here we always talk about everything, but we never talk,
21:08yes, my pain, yes, his family,
21:10of a life cut short.
21:12Any, without, that is...
21:15But, look, unfortunately the story,
21:19it all revolves around a life cut short,
21:21of a 24 year old girl
21:24and if there wasn't that life cut short
21:26she would not have been convicted of manslaughter.
21:29So it's not that it's not being talked about.
21:30It's just, let's say,
21:31Unfortunately, this is the premise for everything that happened.
21:35So it's not that it's not being talked about.
21:36It is the main question around which
21:38this whole story is going around.
21:42and so, let's say,
21:43what we're doing this evening
21:44is trying to understand too
21:48that, let's say,
21:50a life cut short for what.
21:52This is it, let's say,
21:53which unfortunately is the theme of this evening.
21:57Listen, do you know if Paola and Federica
22:04they practiced sadomasochism even without her,
22:08regardless of her?
22:09No.
22:10Why did she say she knew so?
22:12to the magistrates?
22:14I don't remember anymore.
22:15I don't remember what he said.
22:1615 years have passed,
22:18but maybe she...
22:19That is, as you understood,
22:22that evening wasn't the first time
22:24that you practiced together, right?
22:27It's the first time the three of us practiced together.
22:30That is, three of us?
22:31Yes.
22:32But she individually with Federica
22:33and had he already practiced with Paola?
22:39Maybe.
22:41How can you say, maybe?
22:43Don't you know?
22:45Not...
22:46Is it possible that he had removed it?
22:48No.
22:49What did he remove?
22:50No, I don't think it's a removal.
22:53That is, he says because he's in an emotional state right now where...
22:56No, I'm saying that maybe sometimes there's a party in a disco that...
23:09I mean, your friendship wasn't just pure and simple friendship,
23:14but there were also sexual implications.
23:18Our friendship, as such, was...
23:22Friendship.
23:22...a friendship.
23:23And there were also some...
23:25Of a sexual connection between you?
23:27I wouldn't exactly call it a sexual connection...
23:29No?
23:30No.
23:31When the investigating judge...
23:33Specifically, no, I've never made sense of either one.
23:36When the investigating judge, on September 12, 2011, two days after the tragedy,
23:41he asks her if she had had sexual intercourse of any kind with both of them,
23:46she answers yes.
23:48And then to the question, had you had sexual intercourse that evening too,
23:52the one in which Paola died,
23:54she answers incompletely and does not specify what.
23:57So yes, because he says no.
24:03Look, 15 years later, etc., etc., no.
24:07That evening I am absolutely sure.
24:1015 years later I am absolutely sure that not that evening.
24:14So why did she lie to the investigating judge?
24:16I don't know, they were in the best conditions.
24:18Do you want it because of the amount of psychotropic drugs taken there in Regina Celli because of the risk of suicide?
24:25Do you want for what happened?
24:27As I said, the trauma of Paola Treni's death in my arms,
24:32beyond what may be the faults recognized by a court,
24:37from a final judgment.
24:39But it seems to me, excuse me if I may...
24:41If I said that I had sex with girls that night...
24:44Not complete, I don't want to say, I don't want to say because it's useless to say what.
24:49No, absolutely not.
24:52But if she told me she had never had sexual intercourse with both of them,
24:55instead to the investigating judge, even if not related to that evening,
25:00if he had had various types of relationships with both of them,
25:02and here too I can't specify,
25:04she answers yes.
25:05So is it possible that he erased a memory?
25:08No, I don't think he erased a memory.
25:10Listen, that night when you all three met,
25:13who decides to see you and how did it go that evening,
25:17what was the start of your date?
25:21There had been an anniversary, a reception or something,
25:28something had been celebrated.
25:30A party?
25:31No, but a very simple thing in a bar.
25:34We met there and decided to go to a concert
25:37or something that had to do with music.
25:40and then take them back because they lived nearby,
25:45we decided to take a break and do the bondage.
25:48Who decided?
25:50It was something absolutely in the soul and desires of all three of us.
25:55Listen, that evening when you say we stopped at a bar,
25:58If I'm not mistaken, it was the bar, it was called Goodfellas
26:04and it was a bar that was considered a bit of a meeting place
26:07in those who practiced sadomasochism.
26:11Oh, yes.
26:16And you often went to that place on your own, too, I won't say.
26:21Yes, in the sense that it was actually behind a shop
26:26which was very fashionable at that time, which was very beautiful.
26:29in the sadomasochistic world where, right?
26:32Yes.
26:33At a certain point you say there is this common feeling, right?
26:37So you decide to do bondage and go to a garage.
26:43Exact.
26:43in Via di Settebagni which is the revenue agency garage?
26:47Yes.
26:48Where did Federica work?
26:50Yes.
26:51Why did you think that place was right rather than the house of one of you three?
26:57Not her, she was with her parents but maybe the others were.
27:00Why was that place right?
27:01Because the feeling, because that was industry, post-industry,
27:09It was the kind of architecture, colors, and lights that suited us that evening.
27:14There was something, I mean, in that garage on the outskirts, right?
27:17Via di Settebagni and over there?
27:19Was there anything intriguing?
27:21They told me about the architecture, the colors, the light.
27:24That evening all three of you had consumed alcohol and hashish,
27:28However, the toxicological examination shows that the use had been modest and moderate.
27:34and therefore had in no way affected the consent and will which was full of all three.
27:44By the way, you and Federica had been drinking beer and Paola had been drinking coke and rum and had you smoked some joints?
27:52Not me, but...
27:53Did she say any shots?
27:55Exactly, I took a shot exactly a few seconds before the tragedy happened.
28:03And she knows that it is something that did not influence the outcome of how it went.
28:09things in any way?
28:10That is, beyond the analyses I repeat...
28:12I've been thinking about it for 15 years, I've been asking myself these questions every day for 15 years,
28:17I've been retracing every word, every gesture for 15 years.
28:21The serious answer is no, I can't know, I would be extremely presumptuous if I said I'm sure that...
28:27No, no, we all know, I'm trivializing them, if drinking one more glass makes one feel it,
28:33if it's a little softer, altered, or if he just didn't hear it because we know each other.
28:39I am reasonably confident that they were not part of the problem.
28:46Listen, now I'm going to ask you a complex question, I mean it's not complex, it's easy, but it's probably difficult to answer.
28:53Compared to what happened, no, for how the trial went and the procedural truths,
29:03Is there something for which you were acquitted in the trial and you are not acquitted?
29:11In the sense that there is something he realized he did wrong?
29:26No... no... my guilt has nothing to do with...
29:30Mistake?
29:32A mistake, something I did wrong, has to do with the outcome, with the tragedy.
29:38On command?
29:38On one hand there are tons of papers saying that you most likely didn't kill anyone, death
29:48Not...
29:48Well, it's manslaughter, so there was no intent to kill, I mean, she...
29:51That is the procedural reality.
29:53Well, let's say, we remember it because the sentence is that one and it's important because manslaughter means...
29:59I do not oppose the condemnation, respect...
30:01The fact that he was held responsible for the death of a woman does not mean that he was not held responsible,
30:07However, it was recognized that there was no intention to cause harm of any kind.
30:12This is what I was convicted of.
30:16Yes.
30:17Surely its editorial staff will have been read and will be read.
30:21Look, I read things myself.
30:23The... the... is the autopsy technical report...
30:29Yes.
30:30No?
30:31She will have formed an opinion...
30:33Yes.
30:33On how Paola died.
30:34I have formed my own opinion, but I think that when we talk about facts related to someone's death,
30:43there are just too many opinion makers around.
30:45So I have my opinion and I'll keep it to myself.
30:48I called her because she is the most important witness in this story together with Federica,
30:54because he underwent an important trial anyway, because I'm here to listen to his version
31:01and if anything, to contest where I don't agree, but my opinion is the least important thing
31:07that exists in this story.
31:10So, anyway, that evening you decide to try a more complex practice, right?
31:14About the bondage that involved Federica's partial suspension from the ground.
31:20Yes.
31:21With only one leg, suspended 20 centimeters above the ground.
31:23and involved ties around the neck, which is never done in bondage because it's too dangerous.
31:35Right?
31:36She, I guess it was her who was the one doing the tying, right?
31:39Yes.
31:39I don't think the other girls were able to bond.
31:43Was she the one who tied and is she the one who proposed this higher level of practice?
31:52It was something we thought about and wanted to do together.
31:56Did they know, in the sense that you had decided together to tie the neck?
32:02Yes.
32:03Why did you feel so confident in yourself to proceed with such a complex, even dangerous, bond, right?
32:14Near the neck.
32:15Was it also the first time and what's more with three of us?
32:17Why?
32:18In two.
32:19Because the binding we are talking about was not at all tense, tight, or capable of causing harm in any way.
32:31And then it actually did harm, didn't it?
32:33In fact, she had the aggravating circumstance of not having calculated, I'm trivializing, eh, of not having calculated the risks sufficiently,
32:41that is, of having been imprudent.
32:42If bondage excludes the possibility of tying near the neck with ropes because it is too risky, why not?
32:52did he feel so confident in doing it?
32:54Aside from the fact that she had tied some stuck knots?
32:57Beyond the locked knots there was no tension in the ropes around them until Paola
33:07he didn't suddenly feel ill.
33:08An illness.
33:09But the question was why he felt so confident in himself to do something like that, let's say,
33:16advanced and dangerous without ever having done it?
33:18Because I wasn't putting any tension on these strings, not a little or a lot.
33:25Were any of you three afraid of this more dangerous practice? That is, weren't they a little worried?
33:31Done like this, where there was no tension, which was an almost symbolic gesture?
33:36No.
33:36No.
33:38Look, in bondage you establish safety words or signals, no, to stop the practice in case someone,
33:47let's say, something wasn't going well.
33:49Did you also have agreed-upon signals?
33:53No.
33:54Because a simple no wouldn't have been enough to stop it.
34:00Do we agree in advance on the limits that should not be exceeded?
34:05No, because if I perceive the slightest sign of stress from the person I stop immediately, because all that
34:12As I said before, I'm not interested in making a person uncomfortable under stress.
34:16No, to cause harm, of course.
34:17But he's not under stress.
34:19Under stress.
34:19The slightest unpleasant emotion means I've made a mistake and I need to stop.
34:24Excuse me, I imagine that if someone were to be tied around the neck and with their arms behind them in a
34:32such a constrictive situation, you feel pleasure, an erotic satisfaction or not in the constraint.
34:41So in a stressful situation. It's a stressful situation to begin with. It's not a situation of, let's say, no constraint.
34:49Or am I wrong?
34:49There are times when it happens, as she said, but that evening for a series of reasons
34:54No.
34:56But I understand what I mean, that is, in the sense that the situation is sought, the stressful situation, because if
35:03no one finds it unpleasant to have one's arms tied behind one's back with a neck up.
35:08So, as already said, no, the ropes around the neck did not cause any form of stress or discomfort.
35:19Unfortunately, things went differently in the end.
35:28No, it's not a decrease in breathing of any kind. That's what happens to Federica when...
35:39Is Paola falling?
35:40It doesn't fall, because as badly as it was tied, it was tied well enough, so even at the time it fell
35:46it comes, it doesn't fall.
35:47That's why...
35:48And it doesn't hang by the neck.
35:50How were the girls related?
35:52When Paola faints, suddenly, in a terrifying way, she still remains standing, because she is tied by her
36:02arm.
36:03She's tied up... how were the girls tied up?
36:06How did she show it before, Paola?
36:08Paola had her arms tied behind her, this rope around her neck and how far away was Federica from Paola?
36:15Close? A meter and a half, a meter?
36:17This distance.
36:18This distance.
36:19Just to have... not have to run from one place to another, if something happens.
36:23Federica had one foot hanging, what were her arms like?
36:29I don't remember this anymore.
36:31The arms, I say, I had one arm stretched out towards the other and the other retracted towards the body.
36:38Every room, I don't remember that anymore.
36:39During the interrogation, she said something. She said that before Paola fainted, they were as happy as a clam.
36:50It is the truth.
36:52What does it mean?
36:53That they were very happy.
36:55About what?
36:56Of what was happening.
37:12Of what was happening.
37:20He puts himself on edge, even for his story, they all put themselves under tension.
37:24This is Federica's prize.
37:25And Federica, the rope around her neck, becomes tense.
37:29It gets tense and so they go at the same time, let's say, they both feel bad.
37:35Absolutely yes.
37:37No.
37:38One is sick and the other is in respiratory distress.
37:41One fainted and the other went into respiratory distress.
37:44Now, bondage involves the presence...
37:47I mean, Paola didn't feel bad, in the sense that she didn't make a sound, she didn't make a sound
37:51noise.
37:52There was not a single moment when he had difficulty breathing.
37:56We were talking, I turned around and I didn't hear her anymore.
37:59It's Federica who signals to her to tell her that Paola is sick.
38:04What sign does it give you?
38:04He looks at me, Paola looks at me, Paola looks at me and I immediately turn around.
38:10At that point she looks for the scissors that she doesn't have, while bondage requires the presence of a tool that
38:20can sever, cut the ropes.
38:22While the scissors are in Federica's bag inside the car, so she has to get out.
38:27So, the distance between us and the car, we're in the parking lot.
38:31It's not that we're outside the parking lot, we're in the parking lot.
38:34Yes.
38:35So the distance between us and the car is less than, what can I tell you, between us and the camera.
38:42there.
38:43The distance between us and the car.
38:45But it's not like having it in your hand.
38:46Yes, it's not like having it in your hand.
38:47It's a matter of seconds, often, right?
38:49Respiratory crises.
38:52But I saved Federica in time, I put her down, I made sure she was okay and I
38:56dedicated everything that could be done to Paola, who was evidently the one who was worse off.
39:02She says my guilt comes from Paola's death, not from my mistakes.
39:07At least on this you admit that you were wrong, because in any case the aggravating circumstance of imprudence was recognized, of not having
39:12calculated and avoided the risks, right?
39:16At least on this, I say.
39:18Yes, I was re-indicted, I was convicted, etc., etc.
39:21But if on one hand I'm the one who says no, I didn't have the knife in my hand, on the other hand
39:28give me a minimum of credibility if I say that with the speed with which the events unfolded,
39:37if I had had, but it doesn't change anything, no, you have to have the knife, you have to have it at hand.
39:42In that specific case, perhaps it wouldn't have changed anything, but no, you need the knife, the knife, the bondage scissors,
39:52It would be much better if they were bondage scissors,
39:54because they are less dangerous, cutting, because we are dealing with a rope close to a person's skin, you absolutely have to have them
40:03with himself.
40:05Listen to Professor Giorgio Bollino, who is the one who performed the autopsy, he spoke of violent mechanical asphyxia caused by
40:13for hanging by rope,
40:18which is different from saying he had an explainable illness.
40:23There is no sign of moraggia inside the neck, there is no tongue sticking out, there is no
40:31signs of emphysema.
40:33There was chest compression, plus with the ropes tied around his neck he couldn't breathe anymore.
40:41it says, they talked about chest compression.
40:45If he hadn't been breathing, we would have catastrophic pulmonary signs of this lack of breathing.
40:53But is it possible that that bond, that that event, determined it? Do you completely rule it out within yourself?
41:00But I exclude it because I was there, I am in a position that is not the procedural one, that is not the one
41:06of Dr. Bollino, which is not that of the judges.
41:08I stand there and I know that there was no rope tied around Paola's neck.
41:14She said I'm at the magistrates' court, I'm unworthy, I should have saved her, I should have cut the ropes, I made a mistake,
41:21Only I could save her.
41:22Well, that's the truth. If there was anyone who could save her, it was me, certainly not the ambulance that is
41:27arrived.
41:29How long did it take for the ambulance to arrive?
41:30I'm not sure, but at least I think an hour later.
41:35And she was with him for an hour?
41:37Trying to revive her.
41:38But Paola, in your opinion, how long after she died?
41:42I can't say that. What I can tell you is that he has never given the slightest sign of
41:47reaction to all the attempts I made.
41:49Listen, when the ambulance arrived and confirmed the death, what was your first thought?
41:59No, no. When this nurse lady comes in and I tell her, I've done what they could, now you save her.
42:10And she asks me, is she dead? And I ask her, how did she die?
42:16That was another moment.
42:18That was another moment.
42:21That was another moment.
42:25That was another terrible moment.
42:28But she, inside herself, beyond the technical events, but when the 118 doctor confirmed
42:39the cardiorespiratory arrest, you said to yourself did I kill her?
42:44No, I don't have it anymore...
42:46Not even in a second?
42:47But I knew I killed him.
42:49That's not it...
42:50No, no, I asked if...
42:51No, I mean, at that moment my life ended, I mean, at that moment whatever my thought was…
42:56stopped.
42:57When the police arrived, they questioned me.
43:02Now, listen, however, both the PM, who was then head of the flying squad, Vittorio Rizzi,
43:07both Stefano Laforgia, who was a bondage master, from whom she herself had gone for courses,
43:12but there were no good relations, I understand, between you,
43:16they have always maintained, PM, head of the flying squad and this bondage master,
43:22that it was not bondage, but another erotic practice, much more dangerous,
43:30which is called, if I'm not mistaken, Brit Play.
43:32At that time.
43:33Right?
43:33And that actually causes asphyxiation through suffocation, right?
43:37That is, sexual pleasure would derive precisely from strangulation.
43:42and for everyone it wasn't bondage, also because, we repeat,
43:46Bondage does not involve ropes around the neck, while Brit Play does.
43:50So, it's clear and it's not an opinion, it's not debatable by the autopsy,
43:57that no, there is no evidence for this statement.
44:01Have you ever practiced it, have you ever tried it?
44:04The Brit Play, apart from that night?
44:06Brit Play.
44:07Brit Play, sorry.
44:08I don't remember.
44:10Don't you remember if you've ever tried it in your life?
44:13Well, I repeat, these are things that have to do with other people.
44:17But, look, I'm not asking you with whom, but if she, let's just talk about her,
44:21if she has ever practiced it?
44:23I think not, I absolutely think not, I am convinced not.
44:26What I ask you, why?
44:28If I ask her, have you ever tried Brit Play, she clearly says yes,
44:32because he says, I don't want to involve other people, I don't remember now, but maybe not.
44:37You have your specific question, I tell you calmly, that if I understand what I mean, right?
44:42Yes, well, you know what it is, you're an expert in that world.
44:45No, no, no, it's not that simple, but it's not that simple.
44:48But she knows.
44:48Because what Brit Play is for a person who comes and says to her, in my opinion it was Brit Play,
44:55It may not match what another person thinks at all,
45:00another person, there is no canonization of the practices.
45:04Putting ropes around your neck isn't even bondage anymore.
45:08Put your hand over someone's mouth?
45:10Eh, I don't know, you tell me.
45:12I'll ask you, if you ask me, have you ever put your hand over someone's mouth?
45:16I said yes, I tell her yes.
45:20Listen, you were arrested immediately, how did those three days in prison go?
45:26They gave me psychotropic drugs, I took them, they wanted me to never escape the guard's gaze
45:32that was there because I was in danger of suicide, so I was there, I didn't move for a minute from
45:38top.
45:39Where did they put it from?
45:40When she went under house arrest, it was granted after three days, right?
45:44The investigating judge Mancinetti said, we hope that the parents will be vigilant so that he does not commit imprudences,
45:50I mean, they actually thought she was at risk of suicide, but have you ever had any thoughts in that direction?
45:58I stopped having suicidal thoughts, then daily, 2022, daily, non-daily, sporadic,
46:13Let's say these have been two good months, I think I've only had one time these two months.
46:19Listen, from prison you sent a letter of apology to Paola's parents, so right after,
46:28entrusting it to a parish priest, the parish priest of the municipality of Villa Baldassarre, right?
46:33The municipality of Paola, and was it just a letter of apology or did it want to inform them that they knew something more?
46:42I never wanted them to lose a daughter, I never wanted them to experience this pain too.
46:48which was the second huge and gigantic pain of their life.
46:52Was there a follow-up to that letter?
46:55On my part.
46:56From the parents?
46:59No, they joined the civil action, and there was even a civil trial.
47:05The family asked her for a million in compensation, right? For moral, biological, and patrimonial damages.
47:14obviously resulting from Paola's death. Did he manage to pay this million?
47:19I can't, at the moment I can't, I've never owned anything of my own, I don't have a stable job.
47:27And regardless of whether she has it or not, do you think it's right?
47:34This is the first time I've told you, this is a difficult question to answer.
47:41Respect to court decisions.
47:43She within herself, beyond the court's decisions?
47:46I have always fought to know the truth.
47:50We are sure that Paola's family was given the same opportunity.
47:57to be able to make peace better than to think that a man at some point killed their daughter.
48:07I understand what you mean.
48:09I guess, though, let's say, all the procedural information and the papers
48:13were available to both of them, right?
48:17Have you been able to have any romantic relationships since then?
48:22I tried to have romantic relationships, but as the years go by,
48:27the more I see that it is impossible for me.
48:30Why is she impossible?
48:33Too many fears.
48:36There too, obsessively, preventing certain things from happening again.
48:43That is, if I have the slightest doubt that whatever I'm about to do
48:49It can have negative effects, for me it becomes paralyzing.
48:55Excuse me for asking, but as far as romantic relationships are concerned, you told me you can't handle it.
48:59He is paralyzed.
49:01And when it comes to sex, is sadomasochism still a world that appeals to you?
49:07It attracts her.
49:10Ideally, it hasn't stopped being part of my emotional sphere, etc., etc.
49:15Erotica.
49:16Okay.
49:16But the real part is missing.
49:21Have you not practiced it since then?
49:23Yes, but I may have tried, but I'm not comfortable anymore, not with practice, with me
49:32same.
49:33When I think of Paola, what do I think?
49:36If I were to die today, how many times would I have wanted to switch places between me and Paola?
49:48Because I lived my life.
49:49I have no regrets.
49:52As Paola tells me, it was just at the moment when she was placing herself in the most wonderful way towards her
49:59life.
49:59But I remember what I talked about that evening, I remember how positive it was, I remember
50:04how she had reconciled herself with a whole series of things in life.
50:14This is the most terrifying aspect for me.
50:18Thank you.
50:19Thanks to her.
50:19Thank you.
50:25Thanks to Sotermule.
Commenti