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00:00Let's bring in the man in the know, our friend, long-time friend, Chris Fedor from Cleveland.com,
00:07Wine and Gold podcast, playing dealer, and he now sits in the Wisehart Wright.
00:11We make it right. Call Kyle Wright. Hotline!
00:14Hi, Chris.
00:15Hello, Chris.
00:16Hey, what's up, guys? How are you?
00:17Good. How are you?
00:20First of all, are you out of gas?
00:22Are you out of gas after, what, they play 14, 18 games in 36 days.
00:28Are you out of gas? Do you have anything left in your pen?
00:31No, I have absolutely nothing left.
00:34No, I'm completely spent thousands of miles traveling.
00:37I think it was 16 nights in a hotel room over the last month, something like that,
00:43months and a week or something.
00:45It was a lot.
00:46So I totally understand what they were talking about in terms of their fatigue.
00:51I didn't play in any of the games.
00:54I didn't have to go against the Toronto Raptors or the Detroit Pistons.
00:58But I was completely exhausted by the end of this playoff run.
01:03Were you exhausted watching a team that maybe wasn't designed to beat a team like the New York Knicks?
01:12Yeah, I think that's a fair way to phrase it.
01:15I definitely think that there was an element to the Knicks that bothered the Cavs.
01:20It's, you know, every time you go into a playoff run, it's about matchups.
01:25It's about personnel groupings.
01:28It's about who you play, who you don't play.
01:31And, you know, we all talked about it going into the playoffs about when the Cavs were talking about seeding
01:37and they were talking about what side of the bracket and things along those lines.
01:41You know, the Knicks were always going to be formidable just because they had been to the conference finals before,
01:49because they have a lot of length and athleticism.
01:52They pushed the pace.
01:53Jalen Brunson has provided problems for Donovan Mitchell in past years.
01:57So I think part of the reason why the Cavs were looking at the whole seeding situation
02:03and kind of playing it the way that they did down the stretch is because they wanted to hold off
02:10on playing against either New York or Boston until the very end.
02:15I don't think it was simply Boston or just avoid Boston.
02:19I think it was one of those two teams, whoever it was going to be,
02:23hold off playing those teams for as long as you possibly can.
02:27To see if you can work through things on your own,
02:30to see if you can figure out things from a lineup strategy perspective,
02:34all of that kind of stuff.
02:36But it became clear as the series was progressing with New York
02:41that there were things that they did offensively and defensively that just bothered the Cavs.
02:47I mean, offensively, they had no answer for Jalen Brunson.
02:49They tried a bunch of different things and they never figured out a workable solution there.
02:54And it caused their defense to completely break down.
02:58And then when they had the ball on offense,
03:01Mikkel Bridges was giving problems to James Harden.
03:03And OG Ananobi, second team all-defensive player,
03:07was bodying up Evan Mobley and keeping him from the rim.
03:10And it just became a really, really difficult matchup.
03:13Not the same kind of matchup as it was in 2023 when the Cavs played against the Knicks,
03:18but they presented a different kind of problem base for this team.
03:22And they just couldn't figure it out over the course of four games.
03:25So I do think part of the series loss was about the Cavs and their own flaws.
03:30But I also think it was about the brilliance of the Knicks.
03:34Let me ask you this.
03:36Kenny Atkinson appears to be coming back with the front office.
03:40Right idea, wrong idea, and what does it say about the direction of the franchise?
03:47I think it's the right idea from the standpoint of he did what he was asked to do.
03:52Now he has some things that he needs to get better at.
03:56And he has some flaws that were certainly exposed.
03:59Wait, let me take a timeout.
04:00I've got to take a timeout real quick here.
04:02Okay, I burned all my timeouts, so now your conversation can go.
04:06You didn't lose the use it or lose it one?
04:09That is correct.
04:11Yes, I actually used it.
04:13Sorry, I had to do that.
04:14Finish your thought.
04:14I didn't mean to interrupt you.
04:16But the whole idea was, okay, when you replace J.B. Bickerstaff with Kenny Atkinson,
04:21you want to modernize the offense.
04:23You want to diversify the offense.
04:25You want a more forward-thinking, analytical-driven coach.
04:30And you wanted somebody who was going to allow this group to take the next step.
04:36And for them, getting to the conference finals was the next step.
04:40That was a step.
04:41That was something that they did not take for granted.
04:44That was something that they didn't just look at and say, we're going to brush it aside because of the
04:49way that things ended against the Knicks.
04:51It was, we accomplished something.
04:54And Kenny helped this team accomplish that.
04:57He helped them get to that point where they advanced to the conference finals.
05:01Now, again, that doesn't mean that he did everything right.
05:06I think we live in a world here in sports where multiple things can be true at once.
05:11And I think the things that are true about Kenny are that he helped them get to the conference finals.
05:17He helped them take the next step.
05:19He helped them integrate James Harden on the fly, which was really, really difficult.
05:24He helped them navigate all the different injuries and the lineup changes and everything that came at him in the
05:31regular season.
05:32And he also showed some flaws that did not put them in the best situation to beat the New York
05:39Knicks in that particular series against Mike Brown and against New York.
05:44So that just means that he has to learn from those things and he has to get better from those
05:48things.
05:49And I think you give him the opportunity to show that he can.
05:53And then if you determine that he can't, that he isn't the right guy to take that next step, however
06:00you want to quantify that next step for this organization, okay, then maybe possibly you consider making a change.
06:07But given the success that he had this year and what he's done for this organization over the last two
06:13years, I do think it was the right move to give him another chance to show that he can improve,
06:19just like Evan Mobley can improve and Donovan Mitchell can improve and James Harden can improve.
06:24Coaches can get better too.
06:26And it's all about, for Kenny, you know, the mistakes that he made throughout the course of this playoff run
06:32against Toronto, against Detroit, against New York.
06:36How does he get better from those?
06:38But I think you give him a chance to prove whether he can or he can't.
06:41Chris Fedor joining us from the PlainDealerCleveland.com and, of course, the Wine and Gold Talk podcast.
06:48If Kenny's back, say, Kobe Altman, Mike Gansey are back, then those are the guys who have decisions to make,
06:56I would think, about the roster.
06:57Are the guys in the new, I'll just call it core four because that's what they used to call it,
07:04are there decisions to be made on those guys?
07:07Or is Donovan back?
07:08Is James back on what we keep hearing a two-year deal?
07:12Is Evan back?
07:13Is Jared back?
07:17I'll just say, first of all, I don't think it's a guarantee that Mike Gansey is back.
07:21There are teams that are looking for him to run their basketball operations.
07:26Maybe one in Chicago?
07:28Maybe one in Philadelphia.
07:30So I don't think it's a guarantee that Gansey will be back.
07:35He has been somebody that other teams around the NBA have looked at in the past.
07:41Now, at the time that he was kind of considering moving on, you know, that's when the Cavs elevated Kobe
07:48to president of basketball operations, Mike Gansey to general manager, and gave him that kind of internal promotion to kind
07:54of hang on to him.
07:55But now it's a little bit different if he's going to run the basketball operations for somebody.
07:59Mike's mom listens to our show, by the way, Chris.
08:02And is listening to you right now.
08:04So say nice things.
08:06Gansey is an incredible Cleveland sports fan.
08:09He lives and dies with the Browns.
08:11He lives and dies with the Guardians.
08:13Same thing when it comes to the Cavs.
08:15Before he was in the role that he was in, you know, he was one of us.
08:21He grew up around here listening to sports talk radio.
08:24He grew up going to all of the sporting events.
08:27And he could play.
08:28So I love talking.
08:29He was a great high school basketball player.
08:31He was a great high school basketball player.
08:33Great college basketball player, too.
08:35So, you know, I love just talking anything with Gansey.
08:39He's great.
08:40And teams around the NBA know how good he is, how smart he is, how much work he puts in,
08:46and how responsible he has been for, you know, this renaissance of this organization digging out from the rubble of
08:52LeBron James.
08:54But in saying that, like, I do think that the decisions that they have made here with sticking with Kenny
09:02and wanting to keep the basketball operations intact, if they can, specifically Kobe, I do think it points to that
09:13they looked at this run.
09:15They looked at the regular season, and they determined that personnel was something that held them back, that maybe roster
09:23fit was something that held them back.
09:26And I don't think that's a surprise, given the way that they handled things at the trade deadline.
09:31Them at the trade deadline was an admission of, no, it wasn't happening.
09:35If we would have continued to stick with the core four and we could have continued with the roster that
09:41we had, it just would have ended early.
09:43It would have been another playoff playoff for us.
09:45So we want to prevent that as much as we possibly can.
09:48And look, Kenny went on the record, and other people have gone on the record saying that if they didn't
09:55have James Harden on this roster, they don't make it out of the first round of the playoffs.
09:59That was their view of this roster and its flaws before making the James Harden deal and even after making
10:07the James Harden deal.
10:08So I think what that tells you is they do see the flaws of this roster, and they are going
10:14to be opportunistic.
10:16I don't know about aggressive, but they're going to be opportunistic when it comes to trying to improve this roster
10:22around Donovan Mitchell.
10:24Because I think the other thing that they have realized, and they showed it with the James Harden deal, that
10:29it is about Donovan Mitchell's timeline.
10:32It is not about Evan Mobley's timeline.
10:34It's not about Jared Allen's timeline.
10:36It wasn't about Darius Garland's timeline.
10:39It's about Donovan Mitchell's timeline.
10:41And while you have him on your roster, you try to compete for a championship.
10:46You position yourself the best way possible to compete for a championship.
10:50And that does mean more aggressive moves.
10:53That does mean more all-in moves.
10:56That does mean sacrificing some potential growth or a longer window, if you want to phrase it that way, to
11:04try and go for it.
11:05And they did that at the trade deadline, and I expect them to consider that going into this offseason as
11:11well.
11:12That means Jared Allen could be gone.
11:13That means they could consider the possibility of moving on from Evan Mobley.
11:18That means a lot of different things.
11:21But it's all about getting this roster to fit around Donovan and to fit his championship timeline.
11:30Chris, do you think Evan Mobley is capable of being a big-time NBA player?
11:36And by big-time, I mean more than 18-9, which is what he did this year in a career
11:44year.
11:45I'd like to see him get the opportunity to be at least the number-two scorer on this team, number
11:51-two option.
11:52And I don't think he's ever really had that here.
11:55I have my doubts on that, because I just don't know what his thing is on the offensive end of
12:01the floor.
12:02You know what I'm saying?
12:02Like, what is his go-to move?
12:04Like, what's the thing offensively that separates him from some of his peers?
12:11Defensively, my goodness.
12:13He is an all-world defender.
12:15He does things that very few guys on this planet can do from a defensive perspective.
12:21And you see those things.
12:23You see the possession-to-possession impact.
12:25You see the hesitation from teams when it comes to challenging him.
12:29You see him contesting shots, altering shots, getting out to the perimeter and guarding,
12:35recovering the way that he does.
12:38All of that stuff defensively is a top-five defensive player in the NBA.
12:43Like, that's his potential on a yearly basis defensively.
12:47But offensively, I just don't see it.
12:49He's so reliant on other teammates to create for him.
12:54He can't create for himself.
12:56He has a hard time when he has to dribble more than four times in a possession.
13:00He has a really, really difficult time when he doesn't get the ball on the move going to the basket.
13:05He has no go-to move.
13:07He has no turnaround jumper.
13:09He has no post-up skill set.
13:12So, it's going to be hard for him to get to that kind of level where you start talking about
13:19what Kenny Atkinson was talking about last summer week.
13:22Top-five player in the game.
13:24Or when Evan had the audacity to compare himself to Victor Wembenyam.
13:28So, you know, part of the reason why these kinds of expectations and this standard has been set for Evan
13:34is because the organization has done that.
13:37Like, that's not me doing it.
13:39That's not you doing it.
13:41That's not the fans doing it.
13:42The organization did it.
13:43They brought up Wembeny.
13:45They brought up Giannis.
13:46They brought up Anthony Davis.
13:47They brought up all these other lofty comparisons.
13:50The first game that he ever played, Kobe Altman called him transcendent.
13:56So, like, when you put that kind of pressure on a kid and you put those kinds of expectations and
14:03you say that's the standard that we expect him to reach, then people are going to expect him to reach
14:09that.
14:09And if he doesn't reach that, there's going to be a level of disappointment.
14:13So, I have my doubts about Evan ever becoming the kind of offensive player that the Cavs have talked about
14:20him becoming.
14:21And because of that, I do think it's worth them exploring what could we possibly get.
14:28And if it does bring Giannis here, I don't think you can turn your back on that.
14:33Chris, let's talk about something you guys had going on Cleveland.com today playing there.
14:38LeBron James and the possible return on LeBron James.
14:41I thought you guys spelled it out pretty well.
14:44But just explain to folks what it would take to get LeBron here and is it really feasible?
14:51So, it would take a series of moves.
14:54We can start there.
14:55Because as it stands right now, the salary cap situation that the Cavs are in, they're the only second apron
15:02team in the NBA.
15:03They paid more luxury tax than anybody else.
15:05They've got the highest salary of anybody in the NBA.
15:09And they also have some free agents that they have to figure out on their own.
15:12But, just when it comes to LeBron, because of the salary cap situation that the Cavs are in, there is
15:19one contract that they can currently offer LeBron James.
15:23One.
15:24And it's $3 million a year.
15:26Oh, he's in.
15:27And that is a non-starter for LeBron.
15:30LeBron has an ego.
15:31LeBron is a prideful dude.
15:33LeBron has spent two decades in the NBA fighting for contracts and fighting for player empowerment.
15:40He is not coming to Cleveland to make Sam Merrill money.
15:44Not happening.
15:45He is not coming to Cleveland to make less than what Dean Wade made.
15:50Because there's a status that is attached to your contract.
15:54And LeBron knows that as well as anybody else.
15:57That put it in proper context, didn't it?
15:59So, if you can offer him $3 million, and he made $54 million with the Lakers this past year, maybe
16:07you don't have to get to $54 million.
16:10Maybe there's something that he's willing to take in terms of a discount because of his age, because of the
16:17situation.
16:18Oh, $3.1 million.
16:19Done.
16:19Easy.
16:20But it's not $3 million.
16:21It's not.
16:22And it's not going to be the mid-level exception around $13 to $15 million either.
16:28So, if you want LeBron, it's probably going to have to be in a sign-and-trade type deal.
16:34So, we're talking Jared Allen.
16:35We're talking about Dean Wade.
16:37We're talking about Max Struess.
16:38We're talking about those kinds of contracts going to the Los Angeles Lakers to bring LeBron here.
16:45More than likely.
16:46And before you can do that, you probably have to agree to the deal with James Harden, the lesser deal
16:51on a two-year contract that gets you out of the second apron that opens up more financial possibilities, more
16:58roster flexibility, all of that kind of stuff.
17:01So, it will take a series of moves.
17:04But the one thing that I can say, and I was told a long time ago by one of my
17:08mentors, never say never.
17:10But the one thing that I can say with almost as much certainty as anything that I have said in
17:16my entire life is that LeBron is not coming here to make less than Dean Wade.
17:20It is not going to happen.
17:22He will not allow that kind of status to be attached to him.
17:26He's one of the greatest players of all time.
17:28Might be the greatest player of all time.
17:30He's not taking the minimum when he's still playing at this kind of level.
17:34So, I do think it's a possibility.
17:37And I do think that the Cavs would be appealing for LeBron.
17:40And I don't think the Cavs are in any position to just turn their back on him and everything that
17:46he could bring to this organization.
17:48In saying that, it's not just snap your finger, sign a contract, LeBron, come to you.
17:53There would be some loss when it comes to this roster as well.
17:57And then you have to determine, okay, how does that all fit from a positional standpoint, from an on-court
18:03fit standpoint, all of that kind of stuff.
18:06Can you go all in on one year?
18:08Because I don't think you could bank on LeBron for two.
18:11And if you made a move like that, isn't that kind of going all in?
18:16Well, here's the thing.
18:17I think they have a two-year window here.
18:19And the reason that I say that is part of it is Donovan Mitchell's contract.
18:24This is going to be his final year under contract.
18:28He has a player option for 2027.
18:32They also can offer him a new contract extension this offseason starting on July 7th.
18:38But I'm not convinced that Donovan's going to take it because I think it's more financially prudent for him to
18:45actually wait and get more money next offseason and more things attached to his contract, like a no-trade clause
18:51and some of that kind of stuff.
18:53But I also think that the minute that they traded for James Harden, this became like a tighter window.
19:00And it became like an immediate thing.
19:03And I think if you're going to give James Harden this two-year deal, which is a little bit more
19:09team-friendly because that's the wink-wink, nudge-nudge agreement that you made with him to waive his no-trade
19:16clause and come here to Cleveland in the first place.
19:20And you have James for two years, like, okay, that's when you go for it, right?
19:26So I do think that LeBron is more of an all-in type move, and you're sacrificing some things potentially
19:34with your roster to do that.
19:36But you've already kind of committed yourself to that.
19:40So just continue to do that and chase the championship now in this particular window that you have created for
19:48yourself.
19:50All right.
19:51Wow.
19:51A lot of stuff to digest there.
19:53Chris, enjoy your time off here.
19:54Why don't you take a little vacation?
19:56It's on us.
19:57I'm going to.
19:58Me and the boy are going to see a movie today at the theater, so that's going to be a
20:02lot of fun.
20:02Very nice.
20:03Enjoy.
20:04Tell Grogu we said hi.
20:06Yes, will do.
20:08All right.
20:08See you, Chris.
20:09Thanks, Ben.
20:10Make sure you're listening to his podcast as well as reading him every day in The Plain Dealer.
20:14He is Chris Fedor from cleveland.com.
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