- 1 day ago
On this episode of RealTrending, host Tracey Velt sits down with Leo Pareja, CEO of eXp Realty and James Dwiggins, co-CEO of NextHome, to unpack the growing wave of consolidation across the real estate industry and what it means for agents, consumers and the future of listing data.
Pareja compares today’s real estate landscape to the airline industry’s consolidation era, arguing that fragmented industries eventually shrink into a handful of dominant players. But unlike acquisitions driven purely by “synergy” and cost-cutting, he says the eXp and NextHome alignment was built around philosophical fit, shared views on consumer transparency and a belief that agents still need open access to listing distribution.
The conversation quickly turns to private listings and the growing debate around listing control. Dwiggins strongly criticizes private listing strategies, warning they could damage consumer trust, create more litigation and ultimately fracture the MLS system into a European-style marketplace where buyers and agents must search multiple disconnected platforms just to find inventory. Both leaders argue that broad listing exposure remains the best path for sellers and that restricting visibility benefits brokerages more than consumers.
The trio also dives deep into AI and the future of home search. Pareja explains why eXp partnered with Google, HouseCanary and ComeHome, arguing that AI-powered search is fundamentally changing how consumers discover homes. Instead of filtering by bedrooms and bathrooms, future buyers may search conversationally — asking for homes near favorite restaurants, with specific lot orientations or lifestyle features. Both leaders believe the industry has moved too slowly to modernize search experiences and warn that MLS organizations risk becoming irrelevant if they can’t adapt quickly enough.
Despite the heavy focus on technology, both executives end on a surprisingly human note. In a world increasingly driven by AI, they argue that relationships, trust and emotional intelligence will become even more valuable. Their message to brokers and agents is simple: stop obsessing over data wars and start focusing on people, communication and the value you bring to the transaction.
Related to this episode:
Leo Pareja's LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/leopareja/
James Dwiggins LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesdwiggins/
eXp Realty
https://www.exprealty.com/
NextHome
https://www.nexthome.com/
The RealTrending podcast features conversations with the brightest minds in real estate. Every Monday, brokerage leaders, top agents, team leaders, and industry experts join us to share their secrets to success, trends, and the lessons they’ve learned. Hosted by Tracey Velt and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio.
Pareja compares today’s real estate landscape to the airline industry’s consolidation era, arguing that fragmented industries eventually shrink into a handful of dominant players. But unlike acquisitions driven purely by “synergy” and cost-cutting, he says the eXp and NextHome alignment was built around philosophical fit, shared views on consumer transparency and a belief that agents still need open access to listing distribution.
The conversation quickly turns to private listings and the growing debate around listing control. Dwiggins strongly criticizes private listing strategies, warning they could damage consumer trust, create more litigation and ultimately fracture the MLS system into a European-style marketplace where buyers and agents must search multiple disconnected platforms just to find inventory. Both leaders argue that broad listing exposure remains the best path for sellers and that restricting visibility benefits brokerages more than consumers.
The trio also dives deep into AI and the future of home search. Pareja explains why eXp partnered with Google, HouseCanary and ComeHome, arguing that AI-powered search is fundamentally changing how consumers discover homes. Instead of filtering by bedrooms and bathrooms, future buyers may search conversationally — asking for homes near favorite restaurants, with specific lot orientations or lifestyle features. Both leaders believe the industry has moved too slowly to modernize search experiences and warn that MLS organizations risk becoming irrelevant if they can’t adapt quickly enough.
Despite the heavy focus on technology, both executives end on a surprisingly human note. In a world increasingly driven by AI, they argue that relationships, trust and emotional intelligence will become even more valuable. Their message to brokers and agents is simple: stop obsessing over data wars and start focusing on people, communication and the value you bring to the transaction.
Related to this episode:
Leo Pareja's LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/leopareja/
James Dwiggins LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesdwiggins/
eXp Realty
https://www.exprealty.com/
NextHome
https://www.nexthome.com/
The RealTrending podcast features conversations with the brightest minds in real estate. Every Monday, brokerage leaders, top agents, team leaders, and industry experts join us to share their secrets to success, trends, and the lessons they’ve learned. Hosted by Tracey Velt and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio.
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NewsTranscript
00:08You want the real take on the industry right now? Well, I interviewed Leah Pereira. He is
00:14the CEO of eXp Realty and James Dwiggins, the CEO of Next Home. We talked about much
00:20more than their current acquisition or merger. I got the spicy version of both. We talked
00:26all things industry from private listings to data sovereignty to what real estate is
00:33all about. So I am sure you'll enjoy this podcast. Leo, James, thanks so much for joining Real
00:40Trending. I also want to say congratulations. I know the both of you and I just see this
00:46as being so culturally aligned as acquisitions. So congratulations.
00:51Thank you, Tracy. I appreciate it.
00:53We're very excited. Very excited.
00:55Yeah. So let's talk about that a little bit. So I'm going to ask both of you. I'll start
01:01with Leo. When you look at the wave of consolidation, there's been, as we discussed, headlines across
01:08every single day. So is it really about building larger real estate platforms for market share
01:16or are there underlying themes around listing data and AI?
01:19I think the answer would probably be unique to each strategy that you're seeing.
01:25In January, I said something that's been trending quite a bit, which I said,
01:28if you look at American history, when industries start to consolidate, they tend to not stop.
01:34And so consolidation begets consolidation. And industries that for decades were fragmented,
01:40all of a sudden become consolidated. And the example I used on stage that's been repeated quite a bit is
01:47we're having our airline moment, right? So we all grew up in this country with lots more airlines
01:51than we do today, lots more health insurance companies than we have today. But it's not like
01:57this moment in time, like in the late 1800s during the Gilded Age, it was like 180 railroad companies.
02:04And then there was four, right? So normally when something is new and innovative, it tends to
02:10proliferate. And then when it gets stabilized or scaled, it tends to consolidate. So the catalyst
02:17probably started when Stone Point bought KW. I think everyone says it's when Compass bought
02:23anywhere, but it probably started with Stone Point entering the space. It was a signal that
02:28there was a consolidation moment coming. And so a couple of things that are in play that I want to
02:36point out for people to appreciate is one is we now have national platforms. That is, we were, I would
02:42argue that we were the first in 2009 with eXp, but Compass started right after us in 2010.
02:50Before that, all you had was national brands that were strictly franchises. You add high-speed internet
02:57and the ability to create content and distribution virtually, right? We don't have to physically be
03:03together anymore. The world is moving in a much, much different place. So what is the motivation
03:12and catalyst? I would say, and then you add, you know, a downturn in the industry itself.
03:17Like if you look historically, that's actually probably the biggest pressure on consolidation,
03:21right? A bunch of people are struggling. One or two are actually thriving and they take advantage
03:25of the moment in time. For us, when we looked at it, we are statistically the leader in our category
03:34of cloud, but I'm hyper aware that at 4% of the total market, if we absolutely crush it and
03:40get to 10%,
03:42that's 90% won't be with us. And a vast, vast majority of the industry still sits in the franchise
03:48and or independent, small, mid-sized camp. And so for us, we were looking for a platform that was
03:58synergistic and complimentary that was not, that didn't cannibalize our business. So
04:03for example, Next Home, we recruited a total of 28 agents in 2025 away from them, right? So there was
04:10almost zero overlap. And what got us excited to your opening was we were more aligned philosophically
04:19as leadership teams. There was a infinite amount of respect. We'd make statements and said, look
04:26like we already had one marketing team. And we didn't, just so we're clear. But it was pretty
04:33interesting when agents of Next Home would cheer me on or EXP agents would cheer James on, right? So it
04:39was, there was no one upset when we announced it, right? It was like, hey, he's on our team now.
04:44And same
04:45with the next home agent. So it just felt very natural. And it was born out of mutual admiration
04:51and respect. So it, what I, and again, this is my opinion, we're witnessing a bunch of financial
05:00arbitrage traits, right? Lots of words like synergy. Synergy is a fancy word for quitting costs and firing
05:06people, right? And so I think a lot of these scale plays are just driving unit economics
05:12versus for us, it was like, hey, we, we look at the world the same way. We look at consumers
05:16the same
05:16way. We look at the agent value proposition the same way. And so that's what really drove us there.
05:23Again, scale begets scale, gives opportunities with listing distribution. Like we kicked it off by
05:32saying there's a new headline. We were in half of them this week. But like Next Home could not have
05:38done the Google deal that we did purely just because they didn't have enough scale to do it.
05:42But now that we're together, we went from 72,000 active listings to 80,000 active listings. So we just,
05:47we got more ability to do that. And again, like Zillow going dark and MRED,
05:55both eXp and Next Home listings were the first ones live because we put that in place and we have
06:02the technical ability to do that. So I'll pause right there. I don't want to monopolize the
06:07conversation. Okay. James, your thoughts? Yeah. I mean, obviously I agree with everything Leo said,
06:12not just because we work together, but it, it, it all does align and people who have been following
06:16us know that we have been saying the same thing from stages for, for two years. We became friends a
06:22few years ago and then really got aligned last year. And you know, look, I'll, I'll add from,
06:26you know, Next Home's perspective. I recognize that we built this business
06:31from the ground up, no investors from our garage, mortgaged our houses and took all of our savings
06:35accounts to create the company. We built this beautiful, you know, boutique franchise business,
06:40um, and got to be a, you know, pretty significant player in the market and looking at the tea leaves.
06:46I'm not shy about it. I think, you know, private listings are a really bad thing for the industry.
06:51Um, it's, it's always been, in my opinion, something that should be used in a very small
06:56use case. Um, and you know, that coupled with where we are, I looked at, you know, where do
07:03we need to go as a business? Um, EXP has built this, built this beautiful company there. You know,
07:09as Leo mentioned, there's, there is only so much capability there too. There's this whole other
07:13sector in the market and it, it aligned very quickly for us. I'm going, we built this great
07:17franchise business. We need capital, something that we have, but not to the degree we need
07:22in order to compete at that level. Um, EXP obviously wanted to get into the space. Um, we needed
07:28protection from a private listings war, which I unfortunately think is here and about to get
07:34accelerated. So, you know, when Leo talks about four or five companies that, you know, control
07:40a majority of the industry, I absolutely believe that is going to happen. Fortunately, we are one
07:44of them. Um, and my members are protected from, from that game that is, that is being played.
07:49And I look, I mean, it's, I think there is two sort of camps where people have divided in this
07:55business. Unfortunately, we're there. It seems like the rest of America for that matter. But
07:59you know, there's those that I think are putting, um, business profits first. Uh, and there are those
08:06of us that are putting the consumer first and making sure that our agents are protected and doing
08:09the right thing. Um, you know, I certainly fall in that camp. So does Leo and aligning was just a
08:14very natural thing for us. So I think the industry is going to have to decide very quickly where it
08:18wants to sit, um, in this larger debate. Um, and I, I absolutely believe we are going to be on
08:24the
08:24right side of history and protecting the consumer and making sure agents are doing the right thing
08:28for consumers as well along the way. So, yeah, absolutely. I know it's been, um, just crazy.
08:35The amount of op-eds that we've gotten at housing where on both sides of the private listing
08:41landscape. Um, but I do want to talk about your, your Google house canary, um, come home
08:47deal, because I think that, uh, a lot of people are concerned from the people I've talked about
08:54that. It's just another portal going to kind of take the listing data. Um, and I want your,
09:02you know, view on why is this so important right now, um, to do this deal with Google
09:09and is that the future of real estate? Yeah. Fantastic question. One I'm very comfortable
09:15talking about. First of all, I have a very global perspective. Um, so we operate in 27 countries
09:23outside of the U S and Canada that have, uh, no MOSs. And like, I will very directly and controversially
09:30pick a fight with right move in the UK. Um, they're an actual monopoly, right? They charge
09:35us 80 pounds a month per active listing on 800 agents. I think I paid him 2 million pounds
09:41last year, like an absurd amount on a PNL, but there is actually no choice, right? So I
09:48think what makes North American real estate wonderful is we have MLSs and we also syndicate
09:53data to actual competitors that fiercely compete for those positions. Um, creating more distribution
10:00of our sellers listings, um, is better. And like, fight me on that one. Like I'll stand
10:07on that one. There is zero explanation that someone can walk me to. I want to prove the
10:12model here in the U S and take Google with me to Europe. Like that's what I want to do
10:16because
10:17those are actual monopolies that you can't penetrate. Um, but if you can find an entry
10:22point, um, in the search bar, that's an interesting conversation. And by the way, marketers ruin
10:28everything. That's probably one of my go-to scenes on stages when I'm with agents. So there
10:33should always be a pushing of the boundaries and finding a new medium to get in front of
10:37people. Um, the fact that we are the ones sending the data via my, my state and the relationship
10:44with house canary that actually puts me in control to take it away. If they, they, they go back
10:50on their word or we don't like the, uh, position they take. Right. And so it was very clear to
10:58me that they wanted to have a different revenue opportunity direct to the agent, right? So agents
11:04can buy impressions at the small, um, business ad group at Google, which actually gives everyone
11:11a shot and gives the little guy a way to fight. So I would love to hear a logical, non
11:18-emotional
11:19explanation of how that is not a positive for the sellers.
11:22Isn't our job supposed to be about putting the seller's interest forward? I mean, I I've seen like
11:28in all of this debate, sorry, I had to jump in here, but all this debate going on, I'm like
11:33going,
11:34did we forget who we actually work for in this process? That it's that the whole point of our job
11:40is to help a seller sell their home for the highest price possible and least amount of time,
11:4499% of the time. And that really there's only 1% use case where these things need to be
11:48hidden
11:49behind walled gardens. So I just, I, I, I can't, I'm with you. I can't understand why we wouldn't
11:54want to do that. And by the way, if that, if Google's, if Google causes everyone else to reset
11:59and think about the fact that, you know, there's other avenues and other opportunities,
12:04um, that causes the industry to change or grow, like I'm all for it, but I can tell you this,
12:10we sat, Leo and I sat in front of the largest next home office this week and showed them what
12:15was going on. And they're cheering because they're like, yes, because I want to show our
12:19seller what we do and the benefit that we have. So, I mean, I'm a hundred percent aligned on about
12:25giving as much transparency and, and by the way, giving the buyer the ability to find stuff
12:30without having to go through secret handshakes and walled gardens. Yeah. I mean, the fragmentation,
12:35let's talk about, I know you're both our thought leaders on this. Um, you know, what keeps you up
12:40at night? There are a lot of things happening right now that could cause a lot of, it's already caused
12:46a lot of fragmentation of the listing data. Um, you know, what's your, what are your thoughts on,
12:53on how this all shakes out? And, um, yeah, the worst possible scenario, which I've,
13:00been ranting about for two years on anyone who will give me a microphone is starting to play out.
13:04So, um, we sell properties all over Europe. I've told this story before, but it's, it's very,
13:10um, specific. An agent came up to me at an event in France who was a agent in Southern California
13:16for us. She decided she wants to spend the latter part of her career selling properties in the South
13:22of France. I highly recommend it, but she came up to me and she goes, Leo, let me just tell
13:27you how
13:27horrible it is to sell real estate here. I have to go to eight different ways. I have to go
13:32to the
13:32portals like LaVange and all the other ones. And then I have to go to Remix and KW and EXP.
13:37And,
13:37um, that may get me 60% of the inventory. And then I have to call the local offices around
13:44the area.
13:45The client is curious about, they may or may not call me back. She said like, it is like,
13:52it feels like a hundred years compared to what we have in the U S and let's just like, and
13:58again,
13:58the M red Zillow, uh, situation is just one. So technically in Chicago, again, homes, realtor,
14:05redfin, exp.com, compass.com, kw.com, remax.com still all have it. Still all have it. But if like,
14:14what if some of these MLSs go no more IDX and only VOW, what if, um, you do internet on
14:20and off,
14:21which by the way, I know of like 14 MLSs that have made a rule change in the last 12
14:24months that
14:25actually have a button that says internet on and off. Right. So it's exist in the shared database,
14:30but it is not being syndicated anywhere. Um, tell me how that does not end looking like Europe.
14:37And so, uh, that is what keeps me up at night. And again, it keeps me up at night more
14:42from like
14:42a sadness because, um, the, the system we have is better for the consumer. And I think it's
14:48makes our market more liquid, but I actually keeps me up at night from the, where do the comps go?
14:54How do we have actual data? I've asked my European agents. I'm like, Hey, how do you
15:00price, uh, an olive farm in Tuscany? And she went, right. Like we, we kind of just try it out
15:08and
15:09see what happens versus like, Hey, empirical data with these six comps and these adjustments,
15:15I can be within like three to 5%. Right. Um, so it, it goes pretty bad, pretty quick. If we
15:21just
15:21let the whole system burn down, you know, just two things to add Tracy. Cause I think they're just
15:26like, I'm obviously in agreement with Leo, but the two things I want to point out,
15:30I'll tell you what keeps me up at night too. The reputational damage that's going to occur to our
15:35industry because the consumer looks at this is like, why are people, why are agents doing this?
15:40Why are they doing things that aren't in my best interest? Why was I sold on this idea that holding
15:44my listing back privately was going to benefit me? Um, and I'll add the second one, the massive
15:48litigation that will come. This will end up being another antitrust suit when people realize that,
15:55Oh, my agent wanted me to do this. And I lost $200,000 because it wasn't on the open market.
15:59And then that ends up in the press and the New York times and everything else. By the time we're
16:04done, we already have enough problems with trust in our business, but greed is going to push it
16:08further. That is also on top of, we've been trying to make this industry better. It's not a perfect
16:14system. No one's saying it is, but it's better than everywhere else in the world. And by the way,
16:19like the 1.4 million realtors need to wake up and realize that the system wallet, well,
16:23all of its imperfections is a hell of a lot better than what's going to be coming in the next
16:2736
16:27months. If this continues, because to Leo's point, all of that stuff that they don't,
16:32that they take for granted today won't be here. And that is a scary world for, for everything,
16:37including our financial system, by the way, and how that's supposed to operate. Cause no one wants
16:40to have that discussion yet either. So. Yeah. I've actually talked to several appraisers,
16:45um, who are concerned about the whole private listing because they're not able to appraise
16:50properties without having those comps available. And then of course that also leads into the,
16:56the lender and you know, it's across the whole spectrum of the industry. So it, it, you know,
17:03I think maybe people lose sight of the fact that it's not just affecting the consumer from a real
17:10estate, like purchase perspective, just the house, you know, um, finding the house it's throughout the
17:16entire transaction. Yeah. Yeah. So talk to me a little bit about what you see as the home search
17:24experience. Um, you know, especially with Google, I think them reentering the, um, through, through
17:32the house, you know, house canary and, um, come home reentering that the listings are the real estate
17:38listings is kind of a sign of the times. Um, so what are, what are your thoughts on that?
17:43So what, one of the reasons I did it, and again, this is not Google's shared strategy. This is my
17:48assumption. So let me just clarify that. Um, I think that the, we're at an interesting crossroads
17:53because for all the stuff that keeps me up at night and James and I just talked about there,
17:57there is a black swan event, which is that LLMs really get to understand every nook and cranny of
18:03any listing available. And you know, there'll be good enough in 12, 24 months where you can say,
18:08show me every property, even behind paywalls and walled gardens. And by the way, as a consumer,
18:13here's my email and password, log in, create an account anywhere you want and we can syndicate
18:19it. But if, if, if, and again, that's not my argument, I've heard it by very, uh, various,
18:25uh, thought leaders, as you called us earlier, uh, say that that's likely to happen. If that's the
18:31case, I would argue that the probably most prolific and one of the winners of the LLM race will be
18:37Gemini, right? Google just made an announcement May 26th. They're going to move to almost a full AI
18:42search experience. If that's true. And by the way, this is part of the thing about leadership.
18:48It's like, what's more, what's most probable in the future? What's most directionally accurate in
18:53the future? And how do we future proof? Like, it doesn't mean like we're abandoning other strategies,
18:58but like what puts us in pole position if that statement is true, right? Wouldn't it be good to
19:03give the world's biggest LLM all of our properties that are actively available for sale in real time?
19:09It kind of feels good. Like a good idea to me. Yeah. James, I mean, isn't that
19:14this question the other day and I think about it when you go to portals today and I'm not naming
19:19any specific one, the search experience is basically the same as it's been for, Oh, I don't know,
19:24like 15, 20 years, uh, bedrooms, bathrooms and square footage. And like, we've been normalizing
19:28this data, but as I, as I'm looking to buy a house right now, I don't find the search experience
19:34to be anything close to how I actually want to do things. Um, I want to have it go. I
19:39want a pool,
19:40uh, and I want to have it, uh, north facing slope and I want to have this and I want
19:44to have that.
19:44And I want it to be this far from my favorite restaurants in downtown. And I want those things
19:49to happen at a way that I think people are getting more used to searching and for anything,
19:54by the way. Um, like it's a great example, kind of Leo's point, uh, which is, it's interesting
19:58because he makes this comment and I think about it. Like I used to use Google for everything.
20:02Now I use cloud for everything. And then if Google becomes just full, you know, AI all the way around,
20:08do I switch back because it has access to data that nobody, I mean, so you can kind of see
20:11the
20:11point, but the way I want to search for stuff is just changing. I think real estate has to catch
20:15up quickly. It's part of the reason why, you know, not to change the subject, but I think it's relevant
20:19when Zillow created their own, you know, application as they're calling it within open AI and the
20:26industry lost its mind. Like, Oh my God, what are they doing with our data? I was sitting there going
20:31like, I don't care what they're doing with the data. Why the hell is it? The multiple listing
20:35service didn't get together and build this with open AI two years ago. So they were the source of
20:39truth instead of Zillow. It's a conversation we should be having because no one, we're not moving
20:45fast enough. There's too much bureaucracy. There's too much politics. And part, part of the reason that
20:50all of this stuff is occurring is that we're not moving with the way the consumer's going. So I,
20:56you know, from my standpoint, I think being there with Google is a great idea. And I just want to
21:01make sure,
21:01going back to the original point, Tracy, that the seller is getting their house sold for the
21:06highest price possible in the least amount of time, wherever that is. So do you think that it's
21:13possible for the MLSs to do something and, and change, you know, it's been very, it's very difficult
21:22to turn that ship. It's, it's been for, for years. What are your thoughts on that?
21:28Leo, you want to drive first?
21:29Yeah. I mean, I'm kind of in a mood today. So I feel like we've experienced an abdication of
21:35leadership and you've seen, uh, not just me, not just James, other leaders go, okay, fine.
21:42You guys aren't minding the store. We are. And so, you know, that, that really was a kickoff after
21:48the settlement and leaving us a bunch of us out. And it's like, okay, we're going to make our own
21:54forms and we're going to make rules and people like, you're not allowed to do that. I'm like,
21:58why not? I'm the one liable. Uh, and, and so there, there has been a progressive, um, probably louder
22:10decision tree by the companies that are scaled. And by the way, if we also get bigger and more
22:16scaled, you'll probably see, you know, a faster loop of that continue to happen.
22:22Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with Leo, the bureaucracy and politics, and I'll just leave
22:26it with this comment. There are too many unqualified people. And I say that respectfully as possible
22:33on boards, making decisions that they're not qualified to make. And that is the problem with
22:39organized real estate from associations to MLS is all the way down. There are also great people there,
22:44but the problem is the bureaucracy is too much. So to answer your question, no, I don't.
22:48We took us 20 years to get from a thousand MLS is to 500. We don't have 24 months. Um,
22:55and so I think
22:56that you're going to see big companies like ours, um, go out and push and we're going to set the
23:02rules
23:02the way that we want to set it. And unfortunately, MLS will either adapt or candidly, they probably won't
23:07be here at the current pace. So, well, and there's this buzz phrase of data sovereignty right now,
23:13which you've got two sides to, like you say, I want my listing information out there. And then
23:19you have the sides who want to protect that because, you know, the, the listing is, is,
23:25you know, their business and they don't necessarily not want it to be out, but they want to control the
23:31information, which, you know, makes sense. It's your, it's a brokerage's information. Um, you know,
23:38how do you, how do you feel on that issue of kind of data sovereignty? Yeah, well, I,
23:44it goes back to what is the fiduciary responsibility? Like, did you sit down with a
23:49seller and say, I'm going to get you the most amount of money in the least amount of time for
23:52X,
23:53you know, flat fee percent, whatever you agree to. I don't remember you saying, Hey,
23:57I also need to control this and monetize this and then do what I think is best with it.
24:02Like the fiduciary responsibility is put in as many eyeballs as possible. So, um, I mean,
24:08I do have strong opinions of like, if the MLSs are monetizing it or the, uh, parent companies that
24:14own the MLS systems. Right. So look, like, again, I said, I'm spicy today. Let's talk about that.
24:19Right. So, um, but, but at the end of the day, like the first question should be, how do we
24:27make sure in the shortest amount of time, it's syndicated to everywhere where the consumer
24:31eyeballs are. Uh, so the, the, I think that question needs to be kind of broken out. It's
24:37like, wait, what subject are we on? Look, the first one is the consumer and that should be the first
24:41one
24:41from there. There probably is some, some, I think a lot of folks have kind of lost sight of who
24:48their
24:48stakeholder is right. Agency to remember their stakeholder is the client. But I think MLSs have,
24:54uh, forgotten that us brokers and agents are the stakeholders and not their existence for the sake
25:01of existence. Um, James said it, uh, very directly. I'll, I'll double down. I'm like, a lot of these
25:07people aren't qualified to do what they're doing. And I feel like the decisions they're making are to
25:12protect the little fiefdoms they've built. You know, I'm going to, I'm at this, a conversation I had
25:17just to add on top because it's been bugging me. There's this, and I'm not to be clear, protecting
25:22any one entity here, but there's this idea that I'm going to control the data. And I always, when,
25:29when any of that conversation comes up, you have to go deeper and ask for what is it for your
25:35revenue?
25:36Is it to Leo's point for the consumer? Where does, you got to dig on that. And I'll give you
25:42an
25:42example. I've had this conversation where people are upset about, we'll just take Zillow since it's
25:47front and center about them taking data and charging referral fees for listings. Like they're the enemy.
25:52You can pick whatever side you want. I don't really care. It's not my fight. I'm like, but you know
25:56how
25:57stupid that sounds when that same listing is on 3000 other agent websites where those agents are
26:02getting those leads and they're monetizing those leads. And you don't actually know those leads
26:06are being inquired on all those other websites. How is it any different? That's the whole concept
26:11of IDX is distribution as far and wide as possible. The only reason why some people are having these
26:17conversations is because there's a website that's bigger and they don't want to compete with that.
26:22I get that. But you also have to go back to the settlement in 2005 where we were already sued
26:28by the
26:29DOJ for picking and choosing who got our data. So what is it we're wanting to do here? Get back
26:34in
26:34another antitrust suit? I think Leo's comment earlier is also really relevant. A lot of this
26:40is happening because of the time in which we are and the fact the market has been stagnant for a
26:46long
26:46time. A lot of these fights are being picked. But if we're going to start talking about that system,
26:52then the whole system is going to have to be replaced because you can't just pick one and not the
26:56other. That's literally a whole antitrust settlement that occurred that stopped that from happening.
27:01This goes back to Redfin. People want to have a little bit of history of that.
27:04Yeah, absolutely. Are brokerages at risk of giving too much data to third-party platforms for
27:12convenience or for, I don't know, AI best use cases? There's a lot to do with AI infrastructure
27:23related to all of that. And if you're giving all that data away, which we kind of talked about
27:28already, I know your positions on that, but how does AI play a part in all of that in the
27:35future?
27:36Yeah, I mean, I think that's a broader question, Tracy, because in general, that's a pretty hotly
27:41debated topic amongst training sets and who owns what and how you give attribution. So I do think that
27:50there's so much we don't know what we don't know. And again, at the macro level, that's probably
27:55one of the bigger issues in general with the subject of AI, like ownership and copyrights
28:01that will probably end up getting legislated. So I don't know how you stop it because once a
28:08property is on the internet, it's very common that, as you know, in my background, I built MLS
28:14technology, there are scrape farms overseas that literally index every single property in real
28:21time. And then there's a gray market for it, right? You can't display it with origin source.
28:25And like the, there's been many cases where a tech company comes into real estate trying to do
28:32something and very quickly finds out there's copyrights when they create a public facing
28:36anything. And people go, wait, you don't have the rights to that. And that website goes down like
28:4124 hours later. So we have seen that the industry is organized enough and, you know, there's watermarks
28:51and proof of copyrights in a lot of this stuff from an origin source standpoint. So, you know,
29:00it's almost whack-a-mole with any new technology, something pops up and then we find a way to protect
29:06its ownership. I don't spend too much time worrying about it. It kind of is what it is. At the
29:12end of
29:12the day, if you first concentrate on, okay, what is best for the consumer? Let's make sure that their
29:17property is being exposed to as many buyers as possible. So it's actually, you know, best of both
29:24possible worlds. And then, you know, down the road, as we see those use cases, there's typically
29:31some form of making sure that that is being able to be protected.
29:36James, any thoughts?
29:37I don't have anything to add to it. Leo's got that. He's got a deeper background in that than I
29:41do.
29:42So, yeah.
29:43So my last question is just if you were advising, you know, broker owner today, what would you tell
29:49them to stop obsessing over and what should they be obsessing over that they aren't?
29:54Ooh, I'll go first because I just had this conversation with a bunch of folks.
29:59So the entire media cycle is compressing and especially with social and like the 10 second
30:05attention spans we all have now, it's like the attention spans of a gnat. All media has
30:13become clickbait, like just about every form of communication, even watching agents make content.
30:18It's like, it's clickbait ish from the hook standpoint, but in a hyper AI tech focus world,
30:29I think the human is going to be at a premium. I fundamentally believe over the next three to
30:33five years, the people that thrive most in business are humans. And I just, I just did this
30:37call earlier with a bunch of agents and they asked me the same question. I said, I would obsess
30:41with relationships and value. I would like, and everything else is noise. So a broker owner,
30:48like, are you in direct relationship with your 20 or 30 or 40 agents? Like, do you know what their
30:55business is like? Do you know how they're doing? Do you know how their families are doing? What,
31:00what things are you doing right now to show, show people that you care, that you're still in
31:05relationship with them, right? Like at our scale, I invite our top solos, team leaders and attractors
31:11in person every 90 days. And I spend the day with them and you see a lot of pictures on
31:15social about
31:15it. But like, I actually told them, I said, are, what are you doing in your business? That is a,
31:21you know, replication of what I'm doing. Like you are my most important avatars. You're my most
31:25visible people and you're a force multiplier. So like, if I have a message to disseminate, then you,
31:30you guys can carry that message down downstream to the whole organization. But like, I would ask
31:37an agent who's worried about Zillow and MRED, like, really, have you talked to your past customers in
31:44the last six months? And like, something as obvious as, and you can leverage the moment in
31:50the chaos. Just say, Hey, Tracy, I was reaching out to you because we haven't talked in about 18 months.
31:55And with all the headlines going on right now, I just wanted you to know that I'm here to talk
32:00through any questions you have about the current real estate market and make it an open invitation
32:05for a conversation. That's about what's important to them. Right. Don't make assumptions. It like
32:12someone could be like, Oh my God, thank you. You text me. I can't think, I don't know what to
32:16think
32:16about interest rates inventory. Yeah. Fill in the blank. And then also then the second part of that is
32:23value and values defined as how you view your business and the value delivered to the transaction and
32:28become an expert in that niche. Absolutely. You're going to be surprised, but Leo and I are pretty
32:31aligned on what he just said. I'll add this just because he's got, you know, his, we're very aligned
32:38in this stuff. A human connection, I think is going to be the most important thing to remember in an
32:41AI
32:42based world. Yeah. This is an infrequent transaction that people do once every eight to 13 years.
32:49Uh, it's not an Amazon package. It's something that's scary. It's expensive. Um, that connection
32:55you have with the customer is what you're paid to do. You're a therapist. Um, that's part of what our
33:01job is. Um, I will add on top of that, that I think that people need to not forget who
33:08we serve.
33:09And the comment I'm going to make is if you wouldn't do it with the sale of your own home,
33:14then don't do it with other people. If you know it's wrong because you wouldn't do it. If you're
33:20like, Oh, I wouldn't put my house in a private listing because I know I want to expose it to
33:24as
33:24many agents as possible to get as many buyers as possible, then stop pushing that despite what
33:28any of your leadership team is telling you on other people. It's just wrong. Um, I think that's a
33:34really important part. And then to put it to cap it, what Leo said, um, slightly different twist.
33:40It's not about the data. It's about the value you provide. It's like, it reminds me of this
33:46conversation today kind of reminds me of the conversation my grandfather and my father used
33:50to have with me when, you know, cause I'm third generation. It was about the data. The listing
33:54book was like, apparently it's coming back, but a listing book is like this thing that you held on
33:58to. And you're like, Oh my God, nobody can have access to the inventory. You got to call me.
34:02And I thought about it. My father told me this many times before he passed away. He was
34:07like when agents start to realize it has nothing to do with the data, it's about the other 95%
34:12of what we do in the job is what people pay us for. We got to get back to that.
34:16So like all of
34:17this conversation about data, while important to some degree, I'm also not really thinking about
34:21it because if we can get the agents just to focus on the value they provide and articulate that value
34:25clearly, then people are going to continue to work with us all the way in the future where robots
34:30are opening doors and all the other stuff that's potential. Like I think this is a very human
34:33based decision. It's a very emotional decision. Um, we need to get back to what we actually do as
34:39an industry and then, you know, align with the people that you, that share that same philosophy,
34:45because there are a lot of the people out there that share that. So, yeah, absolutely. And I come
34:50from the Steve Murray, um, school of relationships. So I am totally aligned on that as well. Um, thanks so
34:58much for, for joining the real trending today. And again, congratulations to both of you.
35:03Thank you. Very excited.
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