- 10 minutes ago
This edition of News Today examines the fourth fuel price hike in two weeks amid the West Asia crisis.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Good evening, hello and welcome. You're with the news today, your prime time destination news, newsmakers, talking points.
00:07Monday night, let's tell you what we have on the show tonight.
00:10Our big talking point, fuel prices have been hiked again, fourth time in a fortnight.
00:15Are there more to come?
00:17Among my special guests, Montek Singh Aluwali, one of the country's foremost policy makers when it comes to economy.
00:25Someone who's looked at reforms for decades.
00:27Also, the Delhi Gymkhana Club is the heart of a controversy.
00:32Is it a national heritage or elitist privilege as the Modi government moves to take it over?
00:39Plenty on the show tonight, but first, as always, it's time for the nine headlines at nine.
00:45After fuel price hikes for the fourth time in a fortnight,
00:49Finance Minister Nirmala Sitaraman now slams the opposition for fear-mongering.
00:54Opposition hits back, says the BJP is looting people in installments, has lost control over the economy.
01:05Donald Trump gives another twist amidst rising West Asia tension.
01:10Now wants all Arab nations and Pakistan to sign the Abraham Accord with Israel.
01:16Adds that Iran will be made a part of the Abraham Accord if they strike a deal with U.S.
01:20The Accord recognises better relations with Israel.
01:27Karnataka Game of Thrones could now be hitting its final twist.
01:32Chief Minister Siddharamaya, Deputy Chief Minister D.K. Shiv Kumar called to Delhi by the Congress High Command.
01:38Both leaders will meet Rao Gandhi and Congress President Kargate tomorrow to decide who will be Chief Minister.
01:45Will Siddharamaya stay on or will Shiv Kumar take over?
01:52AIDMK continues to grapple with internal feud.
01:55Three rebel MLAs quit the AIDMK joint TVK.
01:59EPS slams Vijay for introducing horse trading culture in the state.
02:09Probe in Thwisha Sharma mystery death case urges media to exercise restraint.
02:15Mother-in-law gets breather from the Madhya Pradesh High Court.
02:19Gets time to file reply against the bail plea.
02:26Delhi Gymkhana members move the High Court against the centre's eviction order.
02:31An actor alleged bid to seize control of the club.
02:33Delhi Gymkhana asked to vacate premises by the 5th of June.
02:40Around 300 tourists travelling in cabins stranded mid-air for hours after the Gullberg Gondola cable car system develops tech
02:48problems.
02:49They are rescued.
02:50End the end.
02:53An actor, Ravi Singh, under fire for quitting film Don 3.
02:57Police Cine Association bans the actor, issues non-corporation directive.
03:01Actor says he has consciously chosen to maintain silence.
03:06Late actor Dharmendra, the he-man of Bollywood, posthumously awarded Padma Vibhushan today.
03:12His wife, Hema Malini, gets emotional while receiving the award.
03:29But the big story breaking at this moment, a twist in the West Asia, peace talks between the United States
03:36and Iran.
03:37Now Donald Trump has put another condition saying Arab nations must sign the Abraham Accord and also included Pakistan in
03:45that.
03:45Trump says sign the Abraham Accords after the Iran deal.
03:49The Abraham Accords recognized ties with Israel.
03:52Iranian negotiators are in Qatar for peace talks that many hope will be concluded this week.
03:58But Donald Trump now adding a new twist to the entire drama that's taking place.
04:04Rohit Sharma, a Washington correspondent, is in New Delhi.
04:07Remember, he interviewed U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio yesterday.
04:11Rohit, what does this mean?
04:13We were told 24 hours ago, in fact, Rubio said it could be a matter of hours that a deal
04:18could be signed.
04:20Now we are hearing Donald Trump saying sign Abraham Accords.
04:23Will this now put more pressure in a way on the Arab countries?
04:28How is this going to play out?
04:29I think this is very interesting development.
04:32In fact, you know, when I spoke to Secretary Rubio yesterday, he said there are only two sticking points.
04:35One was uranium enrichment, the other being that Iran should not have nuclear weapons.
04:39And if they are able to agree to that, we could, you know, have state of arms open and then
04:44we could probably have some kind of deal with the Iranians.
04:48But this is, again, you know, I think this is President Trump or his people around him introducing a new
04:53variable at the last minute and trying to, you know, in a way use the current crisis to do a
04:59new realignment in that region.
05:01Which, again, you know, we do not know how this will go because things like such, unless they're discussed before,
05:07prior, you know, they take a lot of time.
05:09So, again, a new variable.
05:11It could also very well be that Iran is not willing to compromise.
05:15Is it also Israel putting pressure, Roy?
05:17Is it Israel putting pressure, wanting something out of this deal?
05:21That, that, Rajdeep, or it could also very well be, look, you know, Iran has not budged at all.
05:25So, why not introduce a new variable and then, you know, blame that these countries do not want to live
05:30in eternal peace.
05:31And that's why we do not have an end to this war.
05:33So, it could be multiple things at this point in time, Rajdeep.
05:35But, again, this is a new variable we do not know.
05:38I mean, what does it actually mean?
05:39Will these countries sign?
05:40Is this, you know, another pressure tactic by President Donald Trump?
05:43Which he will say if they agree to sign it.
05:46I mean, that this is, you know, this is what he promised that there will be eternal peace in the
05:50region.
05:50Again, very surprising that it's coming at this hour when we were supposed to hear about the deal,
05:56which technically was announced by some parts of the U.S. media over the weekend.
06:01Rajdeep.
06:02Okay, so, there you have it.
06:03But, Rohit Sharma, thanks very much for joining us.
06:06Clearly, therefore, the uncertainty persists over whether the United States and Iran will come to a deal.
06:12And if the uncertainty persists, it means the Strait of Hormuz still are not open.
06:17And if they are not open, fuel prices remain on the edge.
06:21In fact, they are on fire yet again.
06:23Today, petrol and diesel rates were hiked for the fourth time by the Modi government in just 10 days.
06:30As crude prices surge amidst the West Asia crisis, the rupee weakens against the dollar.
06:35The opposition is attacking the Modi government over the repeated hikes.
06:39While the centre insists there is no reason to panic.
06:42And these hikes are only because of external factors.
06:46Take a look at tonight's top story.
07:01Fuel prices hiked a fourth time in 10 days.
07:05Oil marketing companies on Monday raised petrol and diesel prices.
07:11In Delhi, one litre of petrol now costs Rs. 102.12, up Rs. 2.61.
07:18In Kolkata, it is up by Rs. 2.87.
07:22Mumbai, up by Rs. 2.72.
07:24And in Chennai, petrol prices are higher by Rs. 2.46.
07:30Diesel prices have moved closer to the 100 mark.
07:33In Delhi, it is priced at Rs. 95.20, up by Rs. 2.71, Kolkata, Rs. 99.82, higher by
07:42Rs. 2.80.
07:44Mumbai and Chennai also seeing roughly similar increases.
07:50The opposition has it out at the Narendra Modi government over the frequent price hikes.
08:15Speaking at an event marking the anniversary of the Small Industries Development Bank of India,
08:19Finance Minister Nirmala Sita Raman accused skeptics of fear-mongering.
08:25Those naysayers who jump into the scenario, as it were,
08:31and say, oh my God, you look around yourselves,
08:34it's all falling down, it's crumbling, it's going to hit you.
08:39India cannot afford fear-mongering.
08:41We need to give confidence to the people with our words and with our action.
08:48For India, the West Asia crisis has been a double blow.
08:53The closure of the Strait of Hormuz has triggered a rise in crude oil prices
08:56and has come at a time when the rupee is falling against the dollar.
09:02Till the time US and Iran strike a deal,
09:05the government will have a tough time managing the imports which are getting costlier
09:08and are burning up countries' foreign exchange reserves.
09:13Bureau Report, India Today.
09:20And let's go to my first newsmaker today,
09:23the former chairperson of the Planning Commission,
09:25someone deeply associated with India's economic reforms,
09:29Dr. Montek Singh Aluwalia.
09:37I want you to begin by responding on a day when we've seen the fourth fuel price hike in 14
09:44days.
09:44There are those who are saying that these fuel hikes are inevitable.
09:48That's what the government says.
09:49Do you agree that these hikes were inevitable,
09:52particularly the slow drip manner in which they are coming at the moment?
09:56Every few days, the prices hiked marginally.
10:01I think the passing on the price hike was essential.
10:06In fact, failing to do so would have given the impression that we don't know how to manage the situation.
10:12You know, whether these things are done in a slow manner.
10:15In the past, also, we've done things gradually.
10:18So if it's easier to do it in two or three stages, I have no problem with that.
10:23I think we need to look further ahead because, actually, we don't really know how deep this crisis is going
10:30to be.
10:30Everybody emphasizes that, you know, there are people who say the state of Hormuz might come open in another week.
10:37Others say it might take two or three months.
10:39So, quite frankly, I think we should, the country should be ready that if the price increase, oil prices increase
10:48further,
10:50then those increases would also have to be faster.
10:53To some extent, the government can cushion that if it takes the hit on its own revenues.
11:00But that only worsens its own fiscal deficit, which means it has to do something else to cut other expenditures.
11:07But this was essential.
11:09I mean, there's no way of avoiding it.
11:11There was no way of avoiding it.
11:13But the fact is that when oil prices were low a few years ago, the benefit was never passed on
11:19to the consumer.
11:20Instead, the government is the one which made the revenues by raising excise and duties.
11:26So, do you believe that the government needs to ensure that it can't pass on the burden to the consumer
11:34when prices are high?
11:35But when the prices are low, the burden is not passed on to the consumer.
11:39That's used then for the government to cushion up its revenues.
11:43Well, I think that's a very valid point.
11:45And that is exactly what happened.
11:47Mind you, that's why, initially, the government took the hit by lowering excise duties of petroleum.
11:55I think we, you know, many years ago, we produced this theorem 20 years ago that we had dismantled the
12:04administered price mechanism.
12:05But actually, we never did.
12:07It's still effectively a government-fixed price.
12:10And I think we should make it transparent.
12:13People should know what exactly is happening.
12:16What is the cost that we have to bear?
12:19It is true that the tax burden in India has been higher than in many other countries.
12:25But, you know, many people also say that if you want to get away from petroleum to, let's say, electric
12:32vehicles,
12:33keeping a high price for petroleum products, diesel and petrol, is a good thing.
12:39So, I think it's a little complicated how you handled it.
12:42But whichever way you're saying it, you say you need to be transparent.
12:46You cannot claim that you're doing away with the administered price mechanism and then seek to control petroleum prices as
12:54they are.
12:54I want to turn, Dr. Alu Walia, to what the finance minister says today.
12:58She is saying the naysayers, those who are questioning the government, criticizing the government,
13:04talking down the economy, are fear-mongering that the economy is in good shape.
13:10And those who say that the economy is doing bad, forget that this is because of external factors.
13:17How would you respond?
13:18Are you a fear-mongerer?
13:19No, no, I'm not a fear-mongerer, but let's face it, look, politics is about differing views.
13:25So, you would expect the opposition, whatever it says, it will be raising the negatives.
13:31I think it's the responsibility of the government to put across a consistent picture of why it thinks the economy
13:38is in good shape.
13:39Now, there are some strengths to the economy, but there have also been weaknesses, which we've known for some time.
13:45I mean, it's not just the oil price hike.
13:48I mean, for example, private investment has been low for several years.
13:52Exports have not done well for several years.
13:55So, I think there are problems in moving towards the exit barrier.
13:59I think even the government's own position was, it's not as if we are there, rather we need to do
14:06more reforms.
14:07I mean, the prime minister himself has said, reform, perform, transform.
14:12So, I think that implies the need to spell out, what is our reform agenda?
14:18And in my view, internationally, there's a lot of nervousness around the world.
14:23I mean, money is, people with money don't quite know where to put it.
14:28We have to give a very clear message on our major policies.
14:32And this is the time to make those messages totally clear.
14:35That's what we should do.
14:36So, what's gone wrong?
14:38Well, is it only a problem of messaging or is there something structurally that has gone wrong?
14:44When you say private investment has declined, there have been FII outflows, the rupee, of course, has depreciated substantially.
14:51There are pressures both on the current and the capital account deficit.
14:55What's gone wrong?
14:55Is it messaging or is there something beyond that MSMEs are also reportedly struggling?
15:01Yeah, I think you need to separate a few of these things out.
15:05I mean, number one, there's no question that the oil price increase had to be passed on.
15:11Weakening of the rupee was also pretty much unavoidable.
15:14Because for a long time, we were running a current account deficit, which was easily managed with the capital inflows
15:22we had.
15:22But those capital inflows dried up over the last two years or so.
15:26So, unless you intend to make up the gap by simply running down reserves, which is not a good idea,
15:33you would expect that the current account, that the exchange rate would take a little bit of a hit.
15:38I mean, it helps exports in the medium term.
15:40I don't think, by the way, allowing the rupee to slip was a wrong decision.
15:47I mean, the whole idea that the currency will reflect market conditions implies that when market conditions turn adverse, you
15:57will allow the exchange rate to depreciate a bit.
15:59And I think that decision was a good decision.
16:02But I think we need to do a lot more.
16:04I mean, for example, in the last year, we have signed FTAs with, let's say, UK and with the EU.
16:13Very good idea.
16:14But, you know, the most important area in the world, which accounts for the bulk of world trade expansion, is
16:21Asia.
16:22And I've been of the view, and many others have also been of the view, that we should signal our
16:27determination to make the best use possible of international trade by signing up, for example, on the CPTPP, which is
16:38the new kind of free trade arrangement, which includes most of East Asia.
16:43We could have done that with the RCEP, but we decided not to, whatever the reason.
16:48Maybe it was because China, our industry is not really ready to take on competition with China.
16:55But the CPTPP does not include China.
16:58And I think we should do that.
16:59I think it's also the case, by the way, that investment, the investment protection side of our overall policy has
17:08been made very uncertain.
17:11Because we used to have bilateral investment treaties, which were wound up, the BITs were wound up in 2015.
17:21You know, when everything is going well, and the economy is booming, people may not mind very much.
17:28But, you know, when things become tough, people add up, all kinds of things.
17:31And the fact that we don't have BITs in place for all the major countries, I mean, we haven't negotiated
17:38an investment protection agreement with the UK or with the EU, makes investors wonder, I mean, what is our intention?
17:46And I think it's also true, by the way, that if you look at the past record of disputes that
17:53India has had on investment agreements, it's not a good record.
17:58The general impression is that the government simply does not, and I'm not referring to this government, this has been
18:04there for a long time.
18:06We simply appeal everything up to the furthest, to the highest possible level.
18:11That doesn't create confidence amongst investors that if things are problematic, that they will be resolved.
18:18And I think we need to put in place an investment protection agreement which matches, let us say that, of
18:26the most progressive emerging market economies, maybe 10 of them.
18:30And that should be done in a very expert manner.
18:33Indeed, we should put it out for discussion.
18:35I think at the moment, there is some talk that we are working on a BIT, but we don't know
18:42what it is.
18:43So, in a sense, what you are saying is the seeming crisis that we are in.
18:48And I presume you are saying we are in a crisis.
18:50You are saying it's not okay, you can't ignore some of the headwinds that we are facing at the moment.
18:59Am I correct that these global headwinds are here at the moment?
19:02We can't pretend that all is well.
19:04The director general of the International Energy Agency has said that the Hormuz crisis is the most serious energy crisis
19:14the world has faced since 1970.
19:17So, it's very unlikely.
19:19I mean, we are highly dependent on imported oil.
19:2280% of our oil is imported.
19:24So, if the world is in an energy crisis relating to the availability of oil, how can we say that
19:30we are not part of that crisis?
19:32I'm not saying, by the way, that we can't handle it.
19:35But I think we should recognize there's a problem.
19:37It's not business as usual.
19:39That's why I think if we were to, if we made that clear, and I think the country should know
19:44that keeping oil prices low at this point, petroleum doesn't make sense.
19:50I mean, if there is an increase in global prices, a shortage in supply, that will have to be taken
19:56care of.
19:57Now, it's not just oil.
19:58It also affects fertilizers.
20:00Because fertilizer prices are going to shoot up.
20:03It raises, I mean, we are caught in policies that, quite frankly, never made sense for many, many years.
20:10I mean, we are currently pricing fertilizers at 10% of the import cost.
20:16And as a result, as people like Ashraf Gulati and others have said, it all leaks out to Nepal, Bangladesh,
20:24what have you.
20:25Now, this is not sustainable.
20:27But at the same time, it's very difficult to persuade people about the need for change.
20:33So, I think we need more transparency and more discussion.
20:38So, in a sense, Dr. Aluwalia, what you're saying is that the crisis, if we can call it that, also
20:45provides an opportunity for reform.
20:47I can take you back to 1991, when you were part of that stellar team, including PV Narsima, Rao, Montek
20:53Singh, Aluwalia, Manmohan Singh, others, all of you were together.
20:58And actually pushed for, used the balance of payments crisis to push for liberalization.
21:03Do you believe this is also an opportunity to re-look at subsidies, re-look at reform, including, as you
21:09just mentioned, fertilizer pricing?
21:11All of this, this is a moment actually to be doing more, not doing less.
21:15Yes, absolutely.
21:17And what is more, I don't think it can be just done with the ministries doing some work quietly themselves.
21:24I think, whether it's Neeti Ayo, where you set up some high-level committee, I think we need to have
21:30a much broader discussion of some of these things, so that people understand the need for change.
21:36And, I mean, for example, take the ease of doing business.
21:38I was very pleased with the news report, which said that we have set up a committee under Rajiv Gaumba,
21:46former cabinet secretary, to deal with the problem of quantitative control orders, you know, quality control orders, which are a
21:56form of import licensing.
21:58Now, they recommended, according to the newspapers, that there were about 600-plus QCOs, which should be got rid of.
22:07I think about 200 have been got rid of.
22:10Personally, I think all of them should have been got rid of.
22:13So, what I mean is, if you have such a high-level team making a recommendation after much consideration, with
22:20a lot of people who are otherwise well thought of and linked to industry, and they all say that for
22:26ease of doing business, we should get rid of 600 QCOs, then I cannot see why we've only got rid
22:35of 200.
22:36I mean, I think all 600 of them should go.
22:38So, why is that?
22:39Is that because the bureaucracy is resistant?
22:41Is it because the government, Modi government, is winning every election, so there's an element of complacency, as Dr. Surjit
22:47Bhalla seems to believe?
22:49Why is it that you believe that the reform process has not pushed ahead much faster?
22:54Well, I don't know, and I don't think the time is over.
22:58What I mean is that, what I hope doesn't happen, we don't make the mistake of thinking that we must
23:05wait until the next budget.
23:07This is very urgent.
23:08We should get it done now.
23:09You can use the budget to explain why you've done it.
23:13You know, I think the 1991 budget speech, which is much talked about, the interesting thing about the speech was
23:20that all the important things had been done before the budget.
23:24The speech actually explained why they were done at great length, and you need to do that.
23:28I mean, for example, there's a lot of debate in the newspapers on, you know, whether the exchange rate will
23:34hit 100 or not hit 100.
23:37I mean, I think these numbers are not very meaningful.
23:40It's good that it's been allowed to depreciate.
23:43Whether it hits 100 or goes a little above it, I personally don't bother very much.
23:48In due course, it's when the market says that the rupee is over depreciated, the markets themselves will bring the
23:58rupee back.
23:59And I think that's the approach we need to adopt.
24:02In conclusion, therefore, what do you believe is the strength of this government?
24:06They've been in power for 12 years.
24:07You've observed them closely.
24:09You've seen the reform process of the years.
24:11Do you want to compare it to previous governments?
24:14What do you think that they've done right and what have they not done right?
24:17I mean, comparing over 10, 20 years as a research project, maybe I should undertake that.
24:24It would be quite fun.
24:26But, you know, I think let's be clear.
24:28During the term of this government, some important reforms have been implemented.
24:34I mean, for example, Aadhaar, which was started by the previous government, strengthened by the present government, built up into
24:44a pretty major sort of digital infrastructure.
24:48That's very good.
24:49Similarly, the GST.
24:51The government opposed it when the previous government tried to push it.
24:55But, I mean, they decided to do it.
24:57I think there are questions about whether it's been done as well as it could be.
25:03I mean, for example, everybody says that we ought to have one GST rate with a little sin rate for
25:10higher commodities.
25:12When are we going to do this?
25:14I mean, I personally think that you should, rather than rely on this GST council, which just meets and then
25:21comes out for something,
25:22this is the time for the finance ministry to present its view of what should be the GST reform over
25:30the next three years and send it to the GST council.
25:34Most of the states are controlled by the BJP.
25:37So they're in a beautiful position to get it all done.
25:40You know, all reforms involve some hard decisions.
25:45And if we merely talk about reforms but hold back, that's not going to work.
25:49I mean, for example, on privatization, Air India privatization, a very good move.
25:56I mean, it took a long time, but it's been done.
25:59But there are other privatizations that have been talked about which don't seem to be moving further.
26:04You can make a list of things.
26:05I would certainly say that right now, in the short run, good that the oil prices have been raised.
26:12Good that the rupee has been allowed to flow.
26:15We haven't done enough to look at why foreign direct investors seem to be not very happy with us.
26:22I think we need to address their concerns.
26:26Private investment in the private corporate sector is also not doing well.
26:32So we need to examine why that is so.
26:34Maybe there are some problems.
26:36Set up a committee with top private guys who can maybe tell us what needs to be done.
26:42I don't think we should be relying on the ministries to do this.
26:46And quite frankly, the important thing about the 1991 reform was fresh ideas outside the normal ministerial process brought in
26:57with lots of consultation with other expert committees, this, that, and the other.
27:02And this has become a much more complicated world.
27:05I mean, the world is much more complicated than it was in 1991.
27:081991 was, in a way, a no-brainer.
27:12I appreciate, Dr. Aluwalia, you joining me and speaking so plainly from all the experience that you've had over the
27:19years.
27:19Thank you very much for joining me here on the show tonight.
27:23Thank you, Rajiv.
27:23Thank you for having me.
27:26And as I said, we will continue to focus on the economy in the days ahead.
27:30But let's turn to another story that's making the news.
27:33The Delhi Gymkhana Club approached the Delhi High Court today, challenging the centre's directive, ordering it to vacate its iconic
27:4027.3-acre premises in Luttian's Delhi by June 5th.
27:44Some of the country's leading bureaucrats, generals, and others are members of the club.
27:48The High Court has now agreed to hear the case on the 26th of May.
27:51On May 22nd, the Land and Development Office of the Government directed the club to hand over possession of its
27:57sprawling property at 2 Saptarjang Road, not far away from the Prime Minister's office.
28:03According to the centre, the land is, because it's located close to the Prime Minister's residence and other high-security
28:09establishments, is needed to strengthen defence infrastructure and other critical public security requirements.
28:17I want to raise some big questions, though, at the manner in which this has happened.
28:21Is the Modi government justified in taking over the Delhi Gymkhana?
28:25Is takeover simply a land grab by the government?
28:28Are clubs today symbols of elite privilege?
28:31Is the Delhi Gymkhana a soft target, in a way, for the Modi government?
28:35Let's go to our talking point.
28:39Joining me now on our big talking point today is Dullat, former RAW chief and, importantly, also a past president
28:45of the Delhi Gymkhana from 2005 to 2007.
28:49Subhash Chandragarh, former finance secretary, was a member of the club for a few years.
28:55And Ashok Khemka, former digital chief secretary in the government of Haryana.
28:59He has come out strongly against the way the Delhi Gymkhana was functioning.
29:05Why do you believe, Ashok Khemka, let's start with you and play devil's advocate.
29:09Why do you believe that this is the right decision the government has taken to take over the land of
29:16the prestigious Delhi Gymkhana in the heart of the national capital?
29:22Rajdeep, I have tweeted this reasoning that why I support government action on this particular issue.
29:28This is 27.3 acres of prime land on Safdarjung Road and adjacent to the prime minister's office.
29:37The land has been taken, the lease has been terminated on the ground of defense needs of the country.
29:44Now, as civil servants, we cannot sit over the government judgment whether it is required for defense needs or whether
29:51defense needs have primacy or not.
29:54Otherwise, also on merits, you see, this land of 27.3 acres on Safdarjung Road would be valued at at
30:02least 10,000 crores.
30:04And the lease rental of this prime land at even 5% of its capital value would amount to a
30:13substantial 500 crores plus.
30:16Now, can you give away this land to a select few of 5,000 members for social bonding, this value
30:24at a paltry 1,000 rupees of lease rent?
30:29This is the larger question. So, both on the grounds of defense needs, as stated by the government of India
30:37in its notice,
30:38and that whether such prime land of such value whose opportunity cost of this land is 500 crores of lease
30:47rental per year,
30:48this can be given to a select, you know, list.
30:51And there is a huge waiting list of 30 years, not a single sports person has been recruited, which was
30:57one of its activities, objectives of promoting sports.
31:01Now, which sports person has been made a member, a young sports person?
31:06Can this club lay claim of that they have helped in, you know, achieving for India a single medal at
31:12one of the marquee events like the Olympic Games?
31:15Now, much smaller pieces of land in the hinterlands of the state I had served for 35 years have been
31:22churning out medals for the country.
31:24And this particular club, sitting over 27.3 acres.
31:32You've made your point very strongly. Mr. Dullat, you should respond to this.
31:37Mr. Khemka is saying that this land essentially is a classic example.
31:42I'm now paraphrasing what Mr. Khemka is saying is for the privileged elite.
31:48It has been given at throwaway prices and it hasn't even fulfilled one of its core purposes, which was to
31:54promote, according to Mr. Khemka, an Olympian-like sporting culture.
31:59Your response, that clubs cannot just be about social bonding and if they are, then they must be paying market
32:05rents.
32:06They don't get it for free simply because they are of the privileged elite.
32:09Your response?
32:14Yeah, yeah, Rajdeep, I don't think Mr. Khemka knows about the Jumkana Club.
32:19You say he's been a member.
32:21I must say he's been a very poor member of the Jumkana Club.
32:23No, no, that was Mr. Ghar.
32:25Mr. Ghar was the member.
32:26Let me correct you, I am not a member and I have never aspired to be a member.
32:31Okay, okay, okay.
32:32But go ahead.
32:33Then maybe Mr. Khemka's grouse is that he was not a member of the Jumkana Club.
32:40No, I do not have any such grouse, Mr. Duluth.
32:43Please don't make it personal.
32:45I never aspired to be a member of this elite club and I have never aspired to any such club
32:51of this country.
32:52You are talking about an elite.
32:53So please don't get personal.
32:54Okay, okay, Mr. Khemka, you made your point.
32:57You did not want to, Mr. Duluth, respond to the core issue.
33:00Which means are you talking about?
33:01Go ahead.
33:02Mr. Duluth, why do you believe that the club should not be taken over by the government?
33:08Because this is, you know, it's heartbreaking in the sense that there are people who live there all the time.
33:18You know, they are elderly people.
33:19I am getting old myself.
33:22I don't use the club every day.
33:23But let me give you an example.
33:25There is one of our senior colleagues, Mr. O.P. Bhutani.
33:29He is 97 now.
33:30He still goes to the club twice a day, twice a week on Wednesdays and Saturdays.
33:35And he has nowhere else to go and there are a lot of others like that.
33:39And I'll tell you, when I joined the Gymkhana Club, when I first came to Delhi in March 1969 to
33:46join the Intelligence Bureau, our deputy director in charge of administration asked me two things.
33:54He said, do you have a place to stay?
33:57I said, I'm staying with my parents.
33:59He said, no, no, that's not good enough.
34:01You better apply for accommodation.
34:03And then he said, you better apply for membership of the Delhi Gymkhana Club.
34:08Now, if that is elitist, then I think every government servant who has been a member of the Gymkhana Club,
34:15and it has been mostly government officials who have been members of the Gymkhana Club.
34:20As you said, I have been president of that club for two years.
34:25I knew every member at that point of time, and it was a home away from home for everybody.
34:31Yeah, but it may be a home away from home, but look at the rents, look at the rents that
34:36the club was paying.
34:37Yeah, yeah, okay, let me come to Mr. Khemka's point about producing sports people.
34:45Let me remind him, I don't know if he's ever heard of Sumanth Mishra.
34:49Sumanth Mishra was, you know, a renowned Indian tennis player who played Davis Cup.
34:54Yeah, played Davis Cup for a number of years, and he was a prominent member of the Gymkhana Club.
35:00Likewise, now there's a lady who was a spouse member because her husband is dead, Mrs. Sonia Pandey.
35:10Her husband, Prem Pandey, was a known tennis player, and he played at the Gymkhana every day.
35:16No, sir, but Mr. Dullat, with due regard, a couple of people playing high-level sports, forget the sport bit,
35:27do you believe that a club, which is essentially about, presumably about socializing, recreation, and informal space,
35:34let's say for trust building, unwinding from your government jobs in many cases,
35:40do you believe that place should have prime property in the heart of Delhi,
35:44where it does not pay what any other club would have to pay for a similar privilege?
35:52So now, if it's a question of payments, then I think the government has to figure out how much we
36:00need to pay or not need to pay.
36:01My question, let me reverse that question and ask you, what about people who paid 30 lakhs to get a
36:08membership of the Gymkhana Club?
36:09What about all of us who have been paying so much for membership of the Gymkhana Club?
36:14What is going to happen to that?
36:17And, mind you, I come back to that.
36:20Rajdeep, you understand sports better than anybody else, you know?
36:25Your father was a great Indian test batsman.
36:31This Gymkhana is about sports.
36:34All of us have been playing games there.
36:37I played tennis there, I played squash there, I swam there.
36:40Maybe now I can't play tennis, I'm too old, but I still swim there.
36:44No, but is it about sport or is it about heritage?
36:46Is it about sport or is it about the heritage?
36:49Are you trying to fight to preserve a certain heritage?
36:52That may be an argument.
36:53To say, I want to preserve it because the members want to play sport.
36:57They can play it somewhere else.
36:58Why in the heart of the national capital?
37:02Yeah, yeah.
37:03You can say that about any place or any club then.
37:06Then close down all the clubs.
37:09Okay.
37:10Subhashgarh...
37:11Why are you picking on the oldest and one of the best clubs in the country?
37:16Okay.
37:16Subhashgarh respond.
37:17I don't see the sense in this.
37:19Okay.
37:19You've heard two contrary views.
37:21I'm not saying that the government is entitled to do what it likes, but I don't think this
37:27is the best, this thing.
37:28Okay.
37:29Respond, Subhashgarh.
37:31See, Rajdeep, I think let's get the facts together.
37:34Number one, it was a perpetually set up more than 100 years back for the entertainment, socialization
37:41of the defense forces, people, later civil servants, etc.
37:46Lots of civil servants live in this area.
37:49They need some place for networking, meetings, sports, library, and other things.
37:56There is no other club over there.
37:58So, to my mind, there was a great need, justification for this club.
38:05Over the years in this area, lots of security, lots of prime ministerial and other buildings
38:11have come up, which might have and has reduced the sort of appropriateness of this club being
38:17right there.
38:18There have also been lots of disputes between the armed forces, civil servants.
38:24The club was also mismanaged.
38:27But the manner in which the government has taken it over, I think, is more indicative of
38:34the hubris than the purpose.
38:38It can be released, can be resumed for public purpose.
38:43They have stated only that there is some defense requirement, public needs requirement, without
38:50specifying them.
38:51I think the right way to proceed is that the civil servants and the defense people need
38:59some place for socializing.
39:01Maybe this place is not the most appropriate.
39:04An alternative need to be found out.
39:07And by specifying what exactly the use the government intends to put it to, I think it can be taken
39:15over.
39:15But the manner in which it has been done, I think it smacks off.
39:20So, you are saying due process.
39:21You are questioning the sudden ad hocism, in a way, of the takeover.
39:26Am I correct?
39:28Correct.
39:28Almost like a firman.
39:30It's indicative of hubris, as I said.
39:33I don't understand why suddenly you come out and you cite unspecific defense needs and
39:42public goods and just order everyone.
39:45There are 14,000, 15,000 members.
39:49There are thousands of workers who work there.
39:52These members will go where from 5th June onwards?
39:57What would happen to their investments which they have made, their membership rights and
40:03all?
40:04I think the least the government should have done is to find an alternative place and
40:10say that, all right, you shift here.
40:12We'll help you.
40:13You're taking over the buildings, courts, everything, without paying anything to them.
40:17That is not being built by the government money.
40:20That is being built by the members' contribution and all.
40:23So, take it over, provide an alternative place, support the club and then…
40:30I take your point, Mr. Gara.
40:33I want to take that to you, Mr. Khemka.
40:35You know, one of the interesting arguments, Mr. Khemka, which is being made, elitism, elitism,
40:39Luttian's elite.
40:40I mean, these are the same government servants, the generals who work for the government.
40:44Is the government of the day saying that those who work for us are part of the privileged
40:49elite?
40:49They will retain all their ministerial bungalows.
40:51They will retain all the perks.
40:54They will retain their club with all new facilities at taxpayers' expense.
40:59But no, the club in some ways is a symbol of an imperial elitism.
41:04There's a double standard hypocrisy there as well.
41:07No.
41:08Dasdeep, let me respond to that.
41:10You see, number one, one wrong does not justify another wrong.
41:15And number two, if you see the present Prime Minister Narendra Modi ji, when he ascended
41:19to the Delhi Darbar in 2014, he was absolutely pro-people in his approach.
41:27And this Lutian's elitism was against his DNA culture.
41:32So, this must be understood that this is what essentially our Prime Minister is.
41:39What is Lutian's elite?
41:40One elite is being replaced by another.
41:42Are you telling me those who are occupying ministerial bungalows are not part of the new
41:46elite of this country?
41:47Look, listen, Razdeep.
41:48The ostensible purpose of taking over the site is the defence needs.
41:52Please see, this site is adjacent to the Prime Minister's residence.
41:56And tomorrow, if there is one incident which happens, now, which member of the club is
42:03going to come forward and take responsibility, own up responsibility, if there is one incident?
42:07But no other Prime Minister objected to it for 30 years?
42:10How come suddenly the objection?
42:11No, that doesn't mean anything.
42:13The government of the day, there are new technologies, new drone warfares, the new intelligence,
42:18AI is coming up.
42:19Today, there are new risk threats coming up.
42:22And you cannot say that since 30 years, government has not invoked the right under Clause 4 of
42:27the agreement.
42:27It has no right to do so.
42:29And it has done very validly under the defence needs.
42:32It has not done under the mismanagement of the club.
42:35And regarding Mr. Gurgh's assertion regarding two points regarding some 600 odd employees who
42:40will be laid off, I would suggest that the government should give them a golden handshake
42:45or the members may contribute and give them golden handshake or re-employ them in some concern.
42:50Why not give them alternate, no, why not give the club an alternate space?
42:53Absolutely, absolutely.
42:54Why not give the club an alternate space?
42:56Are you telling me bureaucrats have no right to have any social place of social bonding?
43:00Give the club an alternate space, absolutely, you know, seconded.
43:05But at the same time, do not close the membership.
43:08The membership is closed to 5,000 members and there is no new entry.
43:13So any civil service, they should define.
43:15The club should define that this category of civil service, once he enters the service,
43:20becomes automatic member subject to certain contributions.
43:23So this is not a gated club that, look, I'll allow you in and I don't allow you in.
43:28So this cannot be the…
43:30Okay, interesting because a similar thing happened in Bombay where another club,
43:34which I am a member, its lease was coming to an end.
43:38The government intervened and as part of the deal ensured that bureaucrats then got membership.
43:43So everyone wants at one level to be part of this eritka.
43:47But, you know, the time in a way Mr. Dullat has come.
43:51That some of these privileges cannot be that you create a gated community.
43:54You have these…
43:55A membership that…
43:58A citizen will only get membership after 20, 25 years,
44:02while the sons and daughters of the members will get their membership automatically.
44:05All of this has to change also, in some way or the other.
44:09It cannot remain the same forever, Mr. Dullat.
44:11Nobody gets…
44:12No, no, nobody gets membership automatically, Rajdeep.
44:17If you know the clubs of India,
44:21everywhere, children of members do get preference, you know.
44:25There is an advantage of being a member's son or a daughter or a child or whatever it is.
44:33There is an advantage.
44:34But it doesn't mean that automatically they become members.
44:37No, but Mr. Khemka is saying you are creating a small gated community.
44:41You are creating a small gated community of the privilege.
44:44You are not opening it up.
44:48Open it to whom?
44:51I am in favor of stopping all membership, you know.
44:55I agree with Mr. Khemka or whoever it is, that there are people who have to wait 30 years to
45:01get membership.
45:02And it's not very fair.
45:03Why do you keep somebody waiting for 30 years?
45:06When I was president, I came across a gentleman who was from UP.
45:12And he said, you know, I want membership.
45:17He was about 60 years old.
45:19I said, what do you want to do with membership now?
45:21And he showed me photographs when he used to play tennis at the Gymkhana Club.
45:25Basically, this has been a club for government servants,
45:29whether it's from the defense or the civil servants, you know.
45:32And they do get preference.
45:34But you know that…
45:35So, I would say, I would suggest that outside membership should be stopped.
45:42That's one way of dealing with it.
45:44Well, that would all again create…
45:45You know that's a question of the Prime Minister's…
45:47That would again create the impression that this is a…
45:48One minute.
45:49I take your point, Mr. Dullat.
45:51I want to give a final word to you, Mr. Garg.
45:56You've suggested an alternative.
45:57Give an alternative accommodation, follow due process.
46:00You seem to believe that this entire way in which it is being done is objectionable.
46:05It conveys the impression of almost a monarchical diktat.
46:09Am I clear?
46:09In order to remove the so-called elitist club,
46:12you are resorting to a monarchical diktat.
46:15That's your problem.
46:17See, Rajdeep, for last four years,
46:20this club is being managed by a government body.
46:22So, anybody alleging that mismanagement can be a ground
46:26or preventing membership, etc.,
46:28can be a ground for taking over now.
46:30The land is working at the wrong door.
46:34You can reform the membership rules.
46:37You can reform…
46:38No, no.
46:39According to Mr. Khenkar,
46:40this is because of defense and security needs.
46:43National security, defense needs
46:45is the reason why the government needs it.
46:47It's too close to the Prime Minister's residence.
46:50No, no.
46:51Prime Minister's residence, by the way,
46:53Prime Minister's residence is being shifted somewhere else.
46:56It's not going to be the…
46:57This is a temporary residence.
46:59And these arguments that you are sitting next door
47:01only can become a security risk.
47:04It's not a…
47:04And by the way, that has not been specified.
47:07What has been specified is the defense infrastructure
47:09and public goods.
47:11It's not the Prime Minister's residence threat
47:13which has been specified.
47:14So, you have to specify the public.
47:17You can't simply use any word
47:20to take away these valuable rights.
47:23Okay.
47:24You know, Mr. Dullat,
47:25you just heard also Mr. Khenkar
47:27saying that this is Luttian's elite.
47:28You are part of Luttian's elite
47:30and the Prime Minister has said,
47:32I'm going to now cut the Luttian's elite
47:34down to size.
47:35Your response?
47:38Yeah, yeah.
47:39Fair enough.
47:40I mean, if he wants to cut it down to size,
47:42you can't argue against the Prime Minister
47:44or the government of India.
47:46It's all right.
47:47But this question about the Prime Minister's security
47:49that somebody raised,
47:51this has been reviews done by the SPG
47:54a number of times.
47:55It was done when I was president.
47:57And they said there is no threat
47:59from the Gymkhana Club to this thing.
48:02The only thing they said was
48:03that loud music should stop at certain times.
48:06That's all.
48:07You know, I…
48:08There was never a question of any threat.
48:10They looked at every building.
48:12They went up to everything.
48:13Okay.
48:14A final point, Mr. Khenkar.
48:15You know, it's almost as if
48:17the Gymkhana is a soft target.
48:19Government servants will ensure
48:21their children will get the best admissions
48:22into the best school.
48:23Nobody there raises charges of elitism.
48:26Government servants and those in power
48:28and privilege will, as I said,
48:30get all the best ministerial bungalows,
48:32facilities.
48:32Nobody says elitism.
48:34Suddenly, Luttian's elite.
48:35The Delhi Gymkhana is a soft target.
48:38True or not?
48:40No, no.
48:40I don't agree that that is a soft target.
48:43The government has applied its considered mind
48:45and said that this is required
48:47for defense of the country.
48:48And as former civil servants,
48:51one must not question the wisdom
48:52of the government so lightly
48:54unless there is very strong evidence
48:56in one's favor.
48:57If there is an incident,
48:59there was an attack on the parliament
49:00in our own country.
49:02There was Pahlgam.
49:03So, we are living in the hotbed of terrorism
49:06in South Asia
49:07where we are bordered by terrorists
49:09on both sides of the border.
49:11So, it is not that, you know,
49:13this threat can be taken too lightly.
49:15Because we have woken up to the security threat.
49:17But yes, there are two points.
49:17The club was being managed by the government
49:19for the last four years
49:20after charges of mismanagement
49:22and irregularities.
49:23Suddenly, we have woken up
49:24to the defense threat.
49:26No, this is not sudden.
49:27So, I would like to question
49:28the wisdom of the government
49:30unless you have evidence with you
49:31that this has been
49:32a colourable exercise of power.
49:35So, you must have solid evidence
49:37that there is a colourable show.
49:38Without that,
49:39and regarding the two aspects,
49:42alternate space for the club,
49:44yes, I do support it in person.
49:46And the second is regarding
49:48the re-employment of the 600 people,
49:50yes, I also support that
49:52that the interests of the 600 employees
49:54must be taken care of by the members.
49:56And if the members are unable,
49:57then by the government of India.
49:59Okay.
49:59Yes, Mr. Dullad,
50:00you wanted to say something at the end.
50:02Very quickly.
50:02Rajdeep,
50:03one last,
50:05this thing,
50:05let me ask
50:07whoever said that,
50:08you know,
50:09the staff should be given
50:11a golden handshake.
50:12I'm all for the staff.
50:13You know,
50:14I've always supported the staff.
50:16But what about the members
50:17getting a golden handshake?
50:20Let's leave it at that,
50:21sir, whether the...
50:22I think the members
50:23had a good time
50:24for the past hundred years.
50:26Now, they want a golden handshake.
50:28Okay, let's leave it there.
50:29Let me leave it there.
50:30Let me leave it there.
50:31I've heard three
50:32former bureaucrats
50:33and civil servants
50:34speaking on an issue
50:36which goes to the heart
50:37of, in a way,
50:39elite privilege,
50:40some would say.
50:41Others would say
50:42a crucial part
50:43of the history
50:45of Delhi
50:46and the national capital
50:47and important for social bonding.
50:49Thank you all very much
50:50for joining me
50:51on my talking point.
50:53Thank you, Rajdeep.
50:56Thank you very much
50:58to all my guests.
50:59Let's turn to tonight's
51:00Get Real India story
51:01which comes from
51:02Maharashtra's
51:02Chandrapur district.
51:03Three villages
51:04facing severe
51:05drinking water distress
51:06in a season
51:07where there is a fear
51:09of large parts
51:11of this country
51:12not getting the kind
51:14of rains they need.
51:15This summer,
51:15many residents
51:16are relying on pits
51:17dug in dry
51:18seasonal streams
51:19and filtered
51:20through cloth
51:21for survival.
51:22Take a look
51:23at just how
51:24pipe water connections
51:25are once again
51:26largely non-functional.
51:28Yet another
51:28Get Real India story.
51:51Taps without water
51:55Water tanks
51:56left unfinished
52:00The result
52:01is there
52:02for you to see.
52:04This is how
52:05people of three
52:06villages
52:06Haiti Nandgao
52:08Chak Nandgao
52:09and Tole Nandgao
52:11in Maharashtra's
52:12Chandrapur district
52:13collect drinking water.
52:21Women and children
52:22dig pits
52:23in a dry
52:24seasonal
52:24nala
52:25or stream
52:25and filter it
52:26using a cloth
52:27using a cloth.
52:44What is troubling
52:46is that many
52:47of these villagers
52:48have piped
52:49water connections
52:50but supply
52:51is erratic.
52:56One of the villagers
52:57has a well
52:58but residents
52:59claim the water
53:00is not fit
53:01for drinking.
53:23villagers claim
53:24construction of a water
53:26tank was stopped
53:27midway.
53:29They have approached
53:30authorities
53:31but have not
53:32received any
53:33help so far.
53:38With Vikas Rajurkar
53:40Bureau Report
53:41India Today
53:45and over the next
53:47few days
53:47we'll bring you
53:48stories on
53:49India's looming
53:49water crisis
53:50from every
53:51corner of
53:52this country.
53:53Those are the
53:54issues that
53:55should really
53:55matter.
53:56Thanks for
53:57watching.
53:57Stay well,
53:58stay safe,
53:59good night,
53:59Shubhra 3,
54:00Jai Hind,
54:01Namaskar.
54:01?
54:02Bye.
Comments