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The big focus of this episode of India First is on the big delimitation showdown.
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00:01Hello and welcome. Good evening. You're watching India First here on India Today.
00:05I'm Akshita Nanda Gopal and this evening we're focusing on the big delimitation showdown.
00:10It's been a month since the centre's controversial delimitation bill crashed in the Lok Sabha
00:15but the political fight over India's electoral future is raging once again.
00:20The focus, the spotlight is on the southern states.
00:23This time we've seen a direct face-off between Congress veteran Pichadam Ram
00:27and Andhra Pradesh Minister Nara Lokesh.
00:30Lokesh has called the delimitation bill's defeat a blow to southern states.
00:35Chidam Ram hit back, accusing the centre of pushing a formula
00:38that could dilute the South's political voice in Parliament.
00:42And we've seen the delimitation controversy, of course, making headlines since April.
00:47That's when the centre proposed a sweeping delimitation exercise
00:50linked to the implementation of the Women's Reservation Law.
00:53The proposal sought to redraw parliamentary constituencies
00:57and then expand the Lok Sabha from 543 seats to 850.
01:03Home Minister Amit Shah argued that southern states would actually gain
01:06with a 50% formula that he spoke of.
01:1050% more seats after expansion.
01:12And so he maintained that whatever was in fact the representation of the South,
01:16which is roughly 24%,
01:18it remains 24% even post the formula that the centre has spoken of.
01:22The opposition, however, unconvinced.
01:25Their argument was that while the total number of seats may rise,
01:28if you look at the South's effective share in Parliament,
01:31that could still shrink because more populous states,
01:34which in this case are the northern states,
01:37Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh,
01:39they gain a larger slice of representation.
01:41And so we've seen for the last many months,
01:44fierce protests, coordinated opposition resistance,
01:48the bill finally being defeated in the Lok Sabha.
01:50But the politics around delimitation is far from over.
01:54This is a topic that's still alive, still being discussed,
01:57and still leaving people sharply divided.
02:00Because this isn't just about seats.
02:02It's about who gets a bigger voice in India's next political map.
02:06What will a delimitation exercise look like
02:09and which kind of a delimitation exercise can bring everyone on board?
02:14We'll be joined by Mr. Peechit Dambram in just a bit.
02:17But let me first run you through all the details
02:19of what's played out in the last 24 hours.
02:36The delimitation showdown is back
02:38barely a month after the proposed bill failed the Lok Sabha test.
02:47Congress MP Peechit Dambram is hit out at Andhra Pradesh Minister Nara Lokesh
02:51after the TDP leader called the bill's defeat a setback for South India.
02:56Chid Dambram argued that the proposed redistribution of Lok Sabha seats
02:59would weaken South India's political strength in parliament.
03:02It triggered a sharp response from the TDP leader.
03:06The Andhra Minister defended the proposal,
03:08insisting that it was meant to safeguard southern states
03:11and ensure fair representation.
03:13The now-defeated proposal sought to redraw parliamentary constituencies
03:17and expand Lok Sabha's strength from 543 seats to around 850
03:21after a fresh census-linked delimitation exercise.
03:24The centre argued that southern states would not lose a single seat in absolute numbers.
03:30Home Minister Amitsha claimed that the five southern states together
03:32would see the tally rise from 129 to 195.
03:36Kerala seats would rise from 20 to 30,
03:38Karnataka from 28 to 42,
03:41Andhra Pradesh from 25 to 38,
03:43Telangana from 17 to 26,
03:45and Tamil Nadu from 39 to 59.
03:48But the opposition rejected the centre's 50% increased logic,
03:52arguing that the real issue was the South's effective share in parliament.
03:56As per their projections,
03:58Tamil Nadu, which currently has 39 Lok Sabha seats,
04:01could see its share effectively fall to 31.
04:03Kerala could decline from 20 seats to 12,
04:06and the combined strength of Andhra Pradesh and Telangana could fall from 42 to 34,
04:10and Karnataka's relative strength could dip from 28 to 26.
04:15Opposition parties insist that the proposal could alter the balance of representation in parliament,
04:20while the centre maintains that the exercise is aimed at ensuring fair and updated representation after decades.
04:26And even though the bill has been defeated for now,
04:29the political battle over delimitation,
04:31and what it could mean for India's electoral map,
04:34is far from over.
04:36Bureau Report, India Today.
04:41So once again, the focus is on the debate over delimitation,
04:45and joining me here on India First is Congress MP Pichit Dhamram,
04:49to explain why he and the opposition feel that southern states
04:53would have lost out if the delimitation bill had been passed.
04:56Mr. Chid Dhamram, thank you for joining us here on India Today.
05:00You saw what Mr. Narell Okesha said in an interview recently on delimitation,
05:04and clearly you've taken to social media to say, sir,
05:07that you believe his version is in the right perspective.
05:10So let me again highlight, for the benefit of our viewers,
05:13what Mr. Narell Okesha says.
05:14According to him, if Article 81 of the Constitution is followed,
05:19it is immediately a loss for southern states.
05:22And so the constitutional amendment that was defeated
05:26has ensured that Article 81 remains.
05:28Your view, first of all, sir, on what Mr. Narell Okesha says.
05:34We all know Article 81, 2A, that requires that every parliamentary constituency
05:45has a same number of voters as far as possible with any other constituency,
05:56depending upon the population to the population of India,
06:05which is simply one man, one vote principle.
06:13One person, one vote principle.
06:16That's certainly correct.
06:18And when the founding fathers wrote the Constitution,
06:23it was absolutely correct.
06:26But they assumed that the population of all the states of India
06:32will grow at an even pace.
06:35We introduced a family welfare and family planning project program
06:46to stabilize the population.
06:49The TFR, the total fertility rate of India at that time,
06:55was in excess of 3%, maybe 3.5%.
06:59But the TFR has come down in the southern states
07:05and one or two other states on the west to 1.6 and 1.7.
07:12But in four Hindi-speaking states,
07:18what we call loosely North Indian states,
07:22the TFR is much higher.
07:26Bihar, Uttar Pradesh, Madhya Pradesh,
07:31and Bihar, Madhya Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh,
07:37and one more state in the north, Rajasthan,
07:44the TFR is much higher.
07:46Therefore, the population did not grow evenly throughout India.
07:54While the southern states have more or less stabilized their population,
08:01the population of the northern states,
08:04four or five states,
08:05is growing at more than the national average.
08:09In fact, they are growing at 2.1, 2.3, maybe even 2.5.
08:18Therefore, if you apply Article 81.2a today,
08:26it will mean that the southern states will lose parliamentary seats.
08:31For example, the southern states have 120 or 121 parliamentary seats.
08:40They will collectively lose as many as 16 to 20 seats.
08:47And these seats will be added to the Hindi-speaking states
08:53like Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, and Madhya Pradesh.
08:58We are not against the principle,
09:00but if you applied the principle today,
09:0576 years after the Constitution came into being,
09:09it will mean that the relative representation,
09:13I underline the word relative,
09:18proportionate representation of the southern states
09:21will sharply decline and the four or five northern states
09:27will sharply increase.
09:30Whether you do that in the current 543 seats
09:36or whether you do that in the increased strength of 815
09:43is the same.
09:44The mat is the same.
09:47Therefore, the proposal of the central government
09:50to increase the number of seats by 543 to 815
09:56is an illusion.
09:58It's meaningless in mathematics.
10:02So then, Mr. Chidambram,
10:04you know what Mr. Narayalokesh's argument is,
10:07is that the constitutional amendment serves for exactly that,
10:10to ensure that the 2011 census was followed
10:13instead of a post-2026 census.
10:17Because, you know, you look at it either way,
10:19from what you've said as well,
10:20it's inevitable, therefore,
10:22that the South loses out irrespective.
10:23And it's only a question of which situation is worse.
10:26Many, therefore, would argue that a post-2026 census,
10:31as per Article 81,
10:32is actually the worst case scenario for southern states.
10:38If you apply the 2011 census,
10:42it will be slightly better
10:44than applying the 2021 census did not take place.
10:50The census will take place in 2026 or 27.
10:54If you apply the 2026 or 27 census,
10:59it will be worse for the southern states.
11:02If you apply the 2011 census,
11:06it will be slightly better.
11:08But still, the southern states will lose seats
11:12and the northern states will gain seats.
11:16For example,
11:19Tamil Nadu today,
11:20including Pondicherry,
11:22has 40 seats
11:24to the U.P.'s 80 seats.
11:29Now, this balance is
11:31one is to two.
11:33But after you apply
11:35Article 81.2a,
11:38whether you apply the 2011 census
11:41census or the 2026-27 census,
11:45the proportion will be disturbed
11:49against the southern states,
11:51against Tamil Nadu and Pondicherry,
11:53and in favor of U.P.
11:55Take, for example,
11:57Andhra Pradesh.
11:58It has 25 seats,
12:00as against U.P.'s 80 seats.
12:04The proportion is 25 is to 80.
12:08That is, 5 is to 16.
12:11That is, 1 is to 3.2.
12:15But if you apply the Article 81.2a
12:20to whichever census,
12:22it will
12:24worsen for,
12:27the ratio
12:28will worsen for Andhra Pradesh
12:30and it will improve
12:32for Uttar Pradesh.
12:34That's simple arithmetic,
12:36simple mathematics.
12:38Sure, sir.
12:39But, so, essentially,
12:40you know,
12:40post-2026 census
12:42is the worst-case scenario.
12:44A 2011 census
12:45also isn't ideal.
12:47How, then,
12:48do we ensure
12:49adequate representation,
12:51representation
12:51that's fair
12:52for the southern states?
12:58The 2011 census
13:00also showed
13:01that the total fertility rate
13:04of the southern states
13:06declined sharply
13:07and the northern states
13:10declined slowly.
13:13Therefore,
13:14whether the 2011 census
13:16is applied or not,
13:17it will be bad,
13:19it will be worse
13:20for the southern states
13:22in terms of
13:23a relative proportion,
13:24a relative representation
13:26in the Lok Sabha.
13:28Therefore,
13:29the answer is
13:30to devise another formula
13:32which combines
13:34the one-person,
13:36one-vote principle
13:38as well as the fact
13:41that the southern states
13:43have stabilised
13:44their population.
13:45So,
13:46see,
13:47when the founding fathers
13:48wrote the constitution,
13:50they did not anticipate
13:52that the population
13:54of India
13:55will grow unevenly
13:57in different states.
13:59they assumed that
14:01the family planning
14:02and the family welfare programmes
14:05will have a uniform impact
14:08throughout the country
14:10and the TFR of all states
14:13will decline at the same pace.
14:16But they were ambitious,
14:20they were actually aspirational,
14:23but that did not happen.
14:25We know
14:26after the 76 years
14:28of the constitution
14:30that the southern states
14:32TFR
14:33has declined
14:33more rapidly
14:35than the northern states.
14:37Therefore,
14:38whichever census
14:39you apply,
14:40if article 81-2A
14:42is literally
14:44and strictly applied,
14:45it will be worse
14:46for the southern states.
14:47Therefore,
14:49the southern states
14:50have proposed
14:51revisiting article 81-2A.
14:54We are not
14:55against the
14:56one person,
14:57one vote principle,
14:59but moderating,
15:01modifying it
15:03to take note
15:04of the stabilisation
15:06of population
15:06achieved
15:07in the southern states.
15:09But then,
15:10Mr. Chidambram,
15:11you will have
15:12essentially a situation
15:13where every state
15:16then will put their hand up
15:17an object
15:17and say,
15:18you know,
15:18we're not happy
15:19with this kind
15:19of representation.
15:20I ask you again
15:21of what really
15:22is an ideal
15:23fair delimitation then.
15:26And whichever way
15:28I look at it,
15:28you know,
15:28southern states
15:29will pay the price.
15:30So then,
15:31do we look
15:31beyond population?
15:36No, no.
15:38Ideal delimitation
15:39will take into account
15:41the current proportion
15:44of the population
15:45and devise a formula.
15:47I mean,
15:47I can't give
15:49off-the-cuff answers.
15:51This has to be
15:53deliberated
15:54in an interstate council
15:57and all the states
15:59would have to agree
16:00that the formula
16:02is better
16:03than simply,
16:05literally applying
16:06article 81.2a
16:09to the present population.
16:14I mean,
16:14I can't give
16:15a formula
16:17that will satisfy
16:18all the states.
16:19It is only
16:20the collective
16:23deliberation
16:23of all the states
16:24that will yield
16:26the formula.
16:27It has to be
16:28a compromise.
16:29We are not
16:30against a compromise.
16:32It has to be
16:32a compromise.
16:33But a compromise
16:35must meet
16:36the grievances
16:38of the southern states
16:40as well as
16:41the reality
16:42of the population
16:43of the northern states.
16:45I'm not sure
16:46and, you know,
16:47the basis
16:48of what we're
16:48debating and discussing
16:49right now,
16:50Mr. Chitambra,
16:50is, of course,
16:51the conversation
16:52that we saw
16:52between you
16:53and Mr. Narelo Kesh.
16:54So I'm not sure
16:55if you saw
16:55what Mr. Narelo Kesh
16:56said in response
16:57to your detailed
16:58post on delimitation.
17:00But this is a question
17:01constantly NDA BJP
17:03asks of the Congress,
17:04that this constitutional
17:06freeze itself
17:07was something
17:07that was extended
17:08under the Congress
17:09governments
17:09as a temporary measure
17:11and not a permanent solution.
17:12So therefore,
17:13did the Congress
17:14also kind of
17:15avoid confronting
17:16the underlying
17:18Article 81 problem,
17:20left it there
17:20for decades,
17:21leave the crisis
17:22for future governments
17:23to deal with?
17:26That was done
17:27by Vajpayee government,
17:30Mr. Vajpayee's government.
17:31And I think
17:32that was a
17:33temporary solution.
17:35At least for 25 years,
17:37let's freeze
17:38the representation.
17:39That's one obvious solution.
17:43Freeze the current
17:45seats of each state
17:48in the Lok Sabha
17:49and freeze it
17:49for another 25 years.
17:51That is a simple solution.
17:53But I'm not sure
17:55that will be acceptable
17:57to everybody.
17:58But if you freeze
18:00the seats,
18:04it will be
18:07acceptable
18:08acceptable to the southern states.
18:09At least we don't lose.
18:12And at least
18:13we don't
18:15in relative
18:16representation,
18:17we don't lose.
18:19But that will be
18:22the cause
18:23of an outcry
18:24in the northern states
18:26whose populations
18:27have grown
18:28at a faster pace.
18:30therefore I think
18:31there is a
18:33way to find
18:35a solution
18:36between
18:37freezing the
18:38current representation
18:40and applying
18:42strictly
18:4381-2A.
18:4481-2A
18:46and the freezing
18:47the current representation
18:48are extreme poles.
18:50We'll have to
18:51find the solution
18:52in between,
18:54a compromise
18:54solution
18:55midway.
18:58My final question
18:59to you,
19:00Mr. Chitamram,
19:01since you mentioned
19:02the TFR,
19:02which is the total
19:03fertility rate,
19:04and that's something
19:05that's been a bit
19:05of a concern
19:06in southern states,
19:07you had a couple
19:08of days ago
19:09the Andhra
19:09Chief Minister,
19:10Mr. Chandra Babu Naidu,
19:11announcing a policy
19:12to incentivize families
19:14to have a third child,
19:15to have a fourth child.
19:17Is that the way to go?
19:18That in states,
19:19particularly in the south
19:20where the TFR is low,
19:22where the states
19:23have worked on it,
19:24now they're kind of
19:24focusing on bigger families?
19:30Allowing families
19:32to have more
19:33than two children
19:35is reversing
19:37the path
19:39that we have followed
19:40for the last
19:4150, 60 years.
19:44We are the most
19:45populous country
19:47in the world.
19:48We have overtaken China.
19:50What is the point
19:51of adding to the population
19:53the current TFR,
19:56All India TFR,
19:58is a little more
19:59than two.
20:00At the current TFR
20:02and given the age
20:03of the population,
20:06this population
20:07will stabilize
20:08according to
20:12statistics projected.
20:13this population will stabilize
20:16at about 160 crore
20:19by the year 2050
20:22or 2055.
20:24It may take
20:25a few more years
20:28or a few less years.
20:30I'm giving a
20:32ballpark figure.
20:33it will stabilize
20:35at 160 crore.
20:37It will stabilize at 160 crore.
20:38Out of 160 crore,
20:40there is a huge infrastructure deficit.
20:43There is a growing problem
20:46of pollution,
20:49water scarcity,
20:51land scarcity,
20:53urban land scarcity.
20:55And what is the
20:57point of proposing
20:59something
21:00which will add
21:01to the population?
21:02I mean,
21:03I think
21:03with great respect
21:05to my friend
21:06Chandra Babu Naidu,
21:08we used to call him
21:09Babu
21:10when the United Front
21:12government,
21:13he will,
21:14I know him,
21:15he knows me.
21:16And there is no purpose
21:18at all
21:19in adding to the population
21:20of each state.
21:21It will
21:22worsen the problem.
21:23It will worsen
21:24our current problems
21:26starting from
21:29budget allocation
21:31to climate change.
21:33The answer is
21:35not to
21:35increase the population
21:37but to stabilize
21:39the population
21:40all over India.
21:43The China
21:43adopted a
21:45three-child policy.
21:48The China
21:49adopted a
21:51program
21:52of incentives
21:53to children,
21:55to families
21:56to have
21:57more than one child.
21:58It has failed,
21:59completely failed.
22:01In the last
22:01three years,
22:02the Chinese population
22:04has declined.
22:06But that is because
22:07they continued
22:08the one-child policy
22:11for too long.
22:12The one-child policy
22:14was wrong
22:14and I'm afraid,
22:16I say respectfully
22:17to Babu
22:19that the
22:20three-child,
22:21four-child policy
22:22is also wrong.
22:24The two-child policy
22:26is correct.
22:26The two-child policy
22:28will stabilize
22:29the population
22:30in the short
22:32to medium term.
22:33And I don't think
22:35we should reverse
22:36the two-child policy.
22:39I appreciate you
22:41taking the time
22:42out and joining
22:42us here
22:43on India today.
22:44Mr. Chidambaram,
22:44always a pleasure
22:45to have you with us.
22:46Thank you very much.
22:48So you've heard
22:48there from Mr. P. Chidambaram
22:50what he thinks
22:50is what's currently
22:52playing out
22:53and why southern states
22:54will be hurt
22:55irrespective.
22:57Delimitation
22:57is not something
22:58that will work
22:59for the southern states.
22:59And let me open
23:00this up.
23:01Joining us here
23:01on India first
23:02is Pattabhi Ramkoma,
23:04Reddy,
23:04national spokesperson
23:05of the TDP.
23:06We have Krishank Manay,
23:07leader of the BRS.
23:08So regional parties,
23:09you'll get a sense
23:10of what really
23:10their stand is
23:11on this issue.
23:12Prijesh Kalapa,
23:13spokesperson of the Congress.
23:14I am Pradeep Bhandari,
23:16spokesperson of the BJP.
23:17Good evening, gentlemen.
23:18Thank you all very much
23:19for your time.
23:20Since we've just had
23:21Mr. Chidambaram
23:21for the last 10 minutes
23:22speaking on what he believes
23:24will be an unfair
23:25delimitation
23:26irrespective for the south,
23:27I'd like to begin
23:28with Pradeep Bhandari
23:29and give him a chance
23:30to respond to what
23:31the Congress has said.
23:32Pradeep.
23:37Well, Akshita,
23:38I have been listening
23:38very patiently
23:39to your earlier speaker
23:40and his entire argument
23:42is based on the primacy
23:43of the text of article 82
23:45and particularly 2A.
23:46Let me just,
23:47for the benefit of your viewers,
23:49read what 82 says.
23:50It says that
23:51the parliament
23:52has the mandate
23:52to ensure that
23:53there is readjustment
23:55taking place
23:56for the house of the people
23:57provided that
23:58such readjustment
23:59shall not affect
24:00representation
24:01in the house of the people.
24:02So, what is the proportion
24:03of the representation
24:04in the house of the people
24:05as of right now?
24:07Let's take the case
24:07of Andhra Pradesh.
24:09As of right now,
24:10the Andhra Pradesh
24:11has 4.60%
24:12of representation
24:13in the house of the people
24:14which is 25 seats
24:15out of 543.
24:16What the Honorable Union
24:17government had proposed
24:18is that you will have
24:19816 seats increase
24:21and a 50% increase
24:22across every state
24:23which means
24:24that the new proportion
24:25in the proposed
24:26new Lok Sabha
24:27for Andhra Pradesh
24:28will increase
24:28to 4.65%
24:30with 38 seats.
24:31Overall,
24:32southern states
24:32contribute 129 seats
24:34as of right now
24:35which is 23.76%
24:36which will increase
24:38to 195 seats
24:39which is 23.97%.
24:40So, the essence
24:41of article 82
24:42was the proportion
24:43of seats allocated
24:44to different states
24:45even in a new census
24:46or new delimitation
24:47should not change
24:48and with the 50%
24:49increment formula
24:50the proportion
24:51for the southern state
24:52is not changing.
24:53In fact,
24:53it is incrementally increasing.
24:55So, to give the argument
24:56that 82.28
24:57prevents you to do so
24:58and there will be
24:59some injustice
25:00from the southern state
25:01is absolutely wrong
25:02and in 10 seconds
25:02there is no constitutional mandate
25:04neither did the founding forefathers
25:06thought about TFR.
25:07TFR is not written
25:08in the constitution
25:09it is just a passing by argument
25:11which the Congress party
25:12used historically
25:12to delay delimitation.
25:14No, so,
25:15you know,
25:16what Mr. Chidabram
25:16constantly spoke of
25:18Pradeep
25:18is also relative representation
25:20and suggesting
25:21therefore
25:22even if you have
25:23this 50% increase model
25:24which is what
25:25you are referring to
25:26there is still
25:27relative representation
25:28is not happening
25:29for the south.
25:30Mr. Brijes Kalapa
25:31you have heard from
25:32Pradeep Bhandari there
25:33what do you make
25:34of the BJP
25:35constantly saying sir
25:36that if
25:37it is 23.76%
25:39essentially
25:39the south's representation
25:41going by the 50%
25:42increase model
25:43that they spoke of
25:44it goes up to
25:4523.87%
25:46so then the opposition
25:47should be on board.
25:49Yeah, I think
25:50Akshita
25:50everybody in the south
25:51of India
25:52is deeply concerned
25:53about what is going
25:54to be happening
25:55in regard to the
25:55delimitation exercise
25:57and Mr. Chidabram
25:59my senior colleague
25:59in the party
26:00has spoken extensively
26:01on this subject
26:02but what I'd really
26:04like to say is
26:05that as far as
26:06this so-called
26:07representation
26:07to the south
26:08now where
26:09what are we
26:10currently speaking of
26:11we are speaking
26:12of a situation
26:12where the south
26:14is going to have
26:14less than
26:15200 members
26:16of parliament
26:17and the total
26:19strength of parliament
26:20is going to be
26:20850
26:21and we are going
26:22to have less than
26:23200 members
26:24of parliament
26:25in the house
26:27and we are speaking
26:28of a state
26:29like Uttar Pradesh
26:30which is going
26:30to have 120
26:32members of parliament
26:33now who is going
26:34to be treated
26:35on a pedestal
26:37and who is not
26:37going to be treated
26:38on a pedestal
26:39is something
26:40which everybody
26:41knows
26:41and this is how
26:42the politics
26:44of the country
26:45works
26:45that when the
26:46chief minister
26:47of a particular
26:48state
26:49approaches the
26:50centre on
26:50a particular issue
26:52then the strength
26:54of the members
26:56of parliament
26:56that he carries
26:57with him
26:58is certainly
26:59going to be
26:59different
27:00from when
27:00the south
27:01speaks
27:01or one state
27:02of the south
27:03speaks
27:03so this is
27:04something which
27:05we are all
27:05deeply concerned
27:06about
27:06one
27:06two
27:07is when
27:08particularly
27:09when in a
27:10situation
27:11where for
27:12every rupee
27:13that we give
27:14to the centre
27:15we receive
27:15only 16
27:16paise back
27:17while for
27:18every rupee
27:19that the
27:20Uttar Pradesh
27:21chief minister
27:21sends to the
27:22centre
27:22he receives
27:232 rupees
27:2420 paise back
27:25so this is
27:27something which
27:27also exercises
27:28us
27:29and you know
27:30like Mr.
27:31Chidambaram said
27:32no we don't
27:33have easy
27:33solutions for
27:34this
27:34but it can't
27:36be that
27:37one size
27:39fits all
27:39it can't be
27:40like that
27:40so I think
27:41there must be
27:41a deliberative
27:42process
27:43there must be
27:44a consideration
27:44that there's
27:45no ideal
27:46solution
27:47that's been
27:47found
27:47before I
27:48bring in
27:48the others
27:48I'll give
27:49Pradeep Bhandari
27:50quickly a chance
27:50to respond
27:51because constantly
27:52the congress
27:52says this
27:53Pradeep
27:53yes you're
27:54talking of
27:54the southern
27:55numbers
27:55of 50%
27:56increase
27:56model
27:56but the
27:57likes of
27:57Uttar Pradesh
27:58have way
27:59more representation
28:00then
28:04it's absolutely
28:05wrong
28:05Akshita
28:06representation
28:07of any
28:07state is
28:08judged by
28:08the proportion
28:09that the
28:09state
28:10contributes
28:10as of
28:11right now
28:11the southern
28:12states
28:12contribute
28:1323.76
28:14percentage
28:14in the
28:15current
28:15Lok Sabha
28:15and in
28:16the newer
28:16Lok Sabha
28:17the southern
28:17states
28:18contribution
28:18relative share
28:19will be
28:1923.90
28:20percentage
28:21so if
28:21you see
28:22addition
28:22of the
28:23seats
28:23whether it
28:23is
28:23Uttar Pradesh
28:24Karnataka
28:24or any
28:25state
28:25the proportion
28:26is what
28:26has to
28:27be
28:27looked
28:27from
28:27the
28:27total
28:27number
28:28of
28:28seats
28:28as of
28:29right
28:29now
28:29also
28:29southern
28:29states
28:30contribute
28:30120
28:30odd
28:31seats
28:31which
28:32is
28:32just
28:3223.70
28:33percentage
28:34so
28:34Brijesh
28:34Kalappa's
28:35logic
28:35is
28:35fallacious
28:36from
28:37the
28:37primacy
28:37of it
28:38number
28:38two
28:38is
28:38absolutely
28:39wrong
28:39that
28:39on
28:40the
28:40part
28:40of
28:40the
28:40proportion
28:41sent
28:41to
28:42the
28:42southern
28:42state
28:42vis-Ă -vis
28:43Uttar Pradesh
28:43it has
28:44nothing
28:44to do
28:44with
28:44the
28:44geography
28:45or
28:45the
28:45population
28:46in
28:46fact
28:46every
28:47southern
28:47state
28:47will
28:47see
28:48an
28:48increment
28:48of
28:48seat
28:49now
28:49if
28:49he
28:49has
28:49an
28:49issue
28:50with
28:50the
28:50number
28:50of
28:50quantity
28:51of
28:51seats
28:51of
28:51Uttar
28:52Pradesh
28:52as of
28:53right
28:53now
28:53also
28:54has
28:54more
28:54quantity
28:55of
28:55seats
28:55the
28:55proportion
28:56of
29:06Uttar
29:07divide
29:07between
29:08the
29:08south
29:08and
29:08the
29:08north
29:09there
29:09is
29:09nowhere
29:10written
29:10in
29:10article
29:1082
29:11which
29:11says
29:11it
29:12has
29:12to
29:12be
29:12linked
29:12to
29:12TFR
29:13in
29:13fact
29:13if
29:14you
29:14will
29:14link
29:14to
29:14TFR
29:15you
29:15will
29:15have
29:15southern
29:16states
29:16losing
29:16vis-Ă -vis
29:17the
29:17northern
29:17states
29:18that
29:18is
29:18what
29:18they
29:19want
29:19so
29:19that
29:19they
29:19can
29:19play
29:20their
29:20politics
29:20on
29:20it
29:21I think
29:23he's referring
29:24to article
29:2481
29:252A
29:26it's not
29:26article
29:2782
29:27just
29:28a point
29:28of
29:29I'd
29:29like
29:29to
29:3881
29:382A
29:39for
29:39our
29:39viewers
29:40so
29:40we
29:40clear
29:40that
29:4081
29:412A
29:41is
29:42the
29:42article
29:42that
29:42we're
29:42talking
29:43about
29:43this
29:43is
29:44your
29:44graphics
29:44this
29:46is
29:46India
29:46today
29:47graphics
29:47out
29:47here
29:47which
29:50is
29:50referring
29:51to
29:51an
29:51increment
29:51in
29:52the
29:52proportion
29:52of
29:52seats
29:52for
29:53the
29:53southern
29:53states
29:54no
29:55so
29:55that's
29:55what
29:55that's
29:55based
29:56on
29:56what
29:56the
29:56government
29:56has
29:56said
29:57no
29:57Pradeep
29:57we've
29:57put
29:57that
29:58out
29:58based
29:58on
29:58what
29:58the
29:58government
29:59has
29:59said
29:59let
29:59me
29:59bring
30:00in
30:00national
30:01spokesperson
30:01of
30:02the
30:02TDP
30:02also
30:03on
30:03this
30:03all
30:04southern
30:04parties
30:06are
30:07on
30:07one
30:07side
30:07on
30:07this
30:08they've
30:08all
30:08expressed
30:09their
30:09reservations
30:10concerns
30:10over
30:11delimitation
30:12the
30:13TDP
30:14due to
30:14maybe
30:14alliance
30:15compulsions
30:15is that
30:16the
30:16reason
30:17you
30:17have
30:17also
30:18at
30:18this
30:18point
30:18said
30:18that
30:19the
30:19delimitation
30:19bill
30:19you
30:20were
30:20for
30:21is
30:22there
30:22still
30:22a
30:22concern
30:23however
30:23that
30:23Andra
30:24also
30:24won't
30:24get
30:24their
30:24fair
30:25share
30:25Akshita
30:26when
30:27the
30:27whole
30:27discussion
30:30delimitation
30:31we
30:32have
30:32expressed
30:33our
30:33concern
30:33regarding
30:34the
30:34number
30:35of
30:36seats
30:36and
30:37it
30:37is
30:37only
30:38when
30:38the
30:39union
30:39government
30:40had
30:40proposed
30:41that
30:41no
30:42state
30:42will
30:42lose
30:42and
30:43every
30:43state
30:43will
30:44gain
30:44by
30:4550%
30:46and
30:46there
30:46will
30:46be
30:46a
30:46uniform
30:47increase
30:47of
30:48seats
30:48by
30:4850%
30:49we
30:49welcomed
30:50it
30:50initially
30:51we
30:52had
30:52our
30:52concerns
30:53but
30:53when
30:53the
30:53government
30:54came
30:54up
30:54with
30:54a
30:54solution
30:55where
30:56no
30:56state
30:57is
30:57going
30:57to
30:57lose
30:58there
30:58is
30:58no
30:59reason
30:59why
30:59anyone
30:59has
31:00to
31:00oppose
31:00so
31:01we
31:01welcomed
31:01it
31:02and
31:02we
31:02supported
31:02the
31:02proposal
31:03see
31:04the
31:04facts
31:04of
31:04the
31:05matter
31:05are
31:05see
31:05article
31:0681
31:07which
31:08froze
31:08the
31:08number
31:09of
31:09seats
31:09in
31:09the
31:10parliament
31:11initially
31:11till
31:122000
31:12the
31:145
31:19after
31:20the
31:20things
31:20and
31:21prime
31:21minister
31:22and
31:23had
31:23brought
31:24in
31:24the
31:24constitutional
31:2584th
31:26amendment
31:27act
31:272001
31:28which
31:28extended
31:29the
31:29freeze
31:30of
31:31seats
31:31till
31:312026
31:32It is actually we who have safeguarded the southern states from losing any seats because of delimitation by bringing this
31:4384th Amendment way back in 2001.
31:46So even now, see, I've heard to what Mr. Chidambaram had said for more than 10 minutes.
31:51And I've also heard you asking him for a solution not twice but thrice.
31:58But Mr. Chidambaram finally said that he doesn't have a solution.
32:01No, sir, what is the solution, sir? Why don't you tell us?
32:05Yes, the perfect solution is what the union government had proposed.
32:09An uniform increase of seats on the present number by 50 percent due to which my state will have an
32:17increase of 13 seats.
32:19Tamil Nadu will benefit. Every state will benefit.
32:21The Congress Party without having a solution, they are opposing it just for the sake of opposing.
32:28It is exposed even now in your debate.
32:31Mr. Chidambaram does not have a solution.
32:33He is just saying, I don't have a solution, but I will oppose it.
32:38You should only oppose if you have a solution.
32:41No, I think the concern, Mr. Komar Reddy, is what Rajesh Kalappa said.
32:46That the number, if you look at, if you look at the number, 195 seats for southern states out of
32:53816.
32:54That is the concern that the Congress keeps raising, saying that in Uttar Pradesh would go up to 120.
32:59You'll have all southern states at 195.
33:02My friend and our partner from the BJP, he had clearly explained the percentages.
33:09With an uniform increase of 50 percent seats for every state, the southern states' proportion percentage is also increasing.
33:17It is not decreasing.
33:19There is no decrease in the overall...
33:2124 percent, sir.
33:2124 percent.
33:22Yeah, see, it is increasing by around 0.5 percent than the previous percentage.
33:29So, a uniform increase of 50 percent of seats is the best solution for any state.
33:34And that is why we are supporting this.
33:37And that is what our leader, Nara Lokesji, had said.
33:39And that is what my leader, Mr. Naiduji, also had said.
33:42And we request all other parties, including the parties like DMK in the southern states, or the BRS, or the
33:50Congress, to please accept this fair proposal that is being brought forward by the central government.
33:56Let me bring in Krishank, finally.
33:59Krishank of the BRS.
34:00If you look at, really, the numbers, as far as that 50 percent increase model is concerned, Telangana from 17
34:05would go up to 26.
34:06The BRS today, KT Rama Rao, has issued a statement questioning what's the delimitation exercise, essentially going against what Mr.
34:15Nara Lokesji has said.
34:16What is the BRS's contention here, Krishank?
34:20Because if you look at the numbers for Telangana, based on the BJP's, the NDA's formula, it goes up.
34:26Well, Akshay Tala, BRS working president, KT, has been very clear that, lucratively, the government of India has been speaking
34:36about,
34:36the proportionate of seats.
34:38But the fact is, 81 of the Indian constitution article clearly says, that they have used population stabilization.
34:49Population stabilization is there in the article.
34:52And in your 106 amendment also, you clearly mentioned above census.
34:56That means that...
34:57Now, give me a moment, Krishank, I'm sorry.
34:58We're having a bit of a problem with your audio.
35:00I'm going to fix that.
35:02Give us a few moments.
35:03We're going to come back to you, to give you that time to make your opening statement.
35:07But we're going to fix that audio first.
35:08Yes, Pradeep Bhandari, go ahead.
35:13Well, Akshay Tala, let me extend your argument.
35:15The essence of the argument of the Congress is that the relative share of Uttar Pradesh and the southern states
35:20is something which will be disproportionate.
35:22Uttar Pradesh, as of right now, contributes 80 Lok Sabha seats and the southern states contribute 129.
35:28So, Uttar Pradesh has a contribution of 0.62 percentage vis-Ă -vis the southern states.
35:33Now, let's look at a new scenario which we are proposing.
35:36Uttar Pradesh will contribute 120 seats and the southern states will contribute 165 seats, which is a percentage of 0
35:42.61.
35:43So, if you look at it, the percentage of seats that Uttar Pradesh contributes vis-Ă -vis the southern states
35:48right now is 0.61 percentage and in fact 0.62 percentage and it is going down to 0.61
35:55percentage.
35:56So, in a newer Lok Sabha, the percentage of seats that Uttar Pradesh will contribute vis-Ă -vis the southern
36:00states is falling down.
36:02So, if the current Congress government has no problem with the number of seats that Uttar Pradesh has right now,
36:06how can they have problem with the number of seats that Uttar Pradesh will have in a newer Lok Sabha?
36:10Because that percentage is lesser vis-Ă -vis the southern states.
36:13Let Brijesh Kalapa respond.
36:15Mr. Brijesh Kalapa, your response.
36:16It's 0.1 percentage lesser than what it is right now.
36:17See, Akshita, I think, see, we have had this kind of, you know, issues.
36:23Even from 1971 and as you realize, even Mr. Vajpayee had, you know, set about an arrangement which is, you
36:33know, in the last 50 years, from 1971 onwards, we have had these issues.
36:39And I don't think it can be brushed aside or brushed under the carpet and said, no, no, we have
36:44dealt with it for so long, so live with it.
36:46We are asking for solutions.
36:48Prime Minister doesn't have solutions.
36:50BJP doesn't have solutions.
36:52How do we come out with solutions?
36:52But neither does the Congress.
36:53Mr. Brijesh Kalapa, what is your solution?
36:56One minute, Akshita.
36:57We are not in government.
36:58So, today, unless there is a consultative process, unless there is some kind of deliberation with regard to this, by
37:06the asking for an interstate council, interstate councils don't meet in this country.
37:12How many, how long has it been since the interstate council has met in this country?
37:16How do we come up with solutions?
37:18If we only think on the top of the head, don't know that what we have is a phenomenal idea,
37:23like today what the BJP is projecting, that we are on top of the game and we have projected the
37:28best of ideas.
37:29It may be the most hopeless idea, but who is to tell you, unless there is a deliberation on this
37:34issue?
37:34No, but my sense is that right now we don't have an ideal solution.
37:37I'm sorry, I'm going to have to cut this short.
37:40Thank you, gentlemen, for joining us.
37:41We're cutting across to an exclusive now with, in fact, the U.S. Ambassador to India, Sergio Gaur, speaking exclusively
37:47to India today, just ahead of Marco Rubio's visit to India.
37:59Joining us now on this global exclusive interview on the eve of U.S. Secretary Marco Rubio's maiden visit to
38:08India is Ambassador Gaur.
38:10Ambassador Gaur, thank you so much for making time for us and doing it on such a short note.
38:14This is truly global because I'm somewhere else part of the world.
38:18You are in New Delhi, Secretary Rubio is somewhere else, all converging to be meeting in New Delhi tomorrow.
38:23Can you tell us, you know, what is the significance of this visit?
38:27Because there's been a lot being said about it.
38:29What can we expect from this visit?
38:31Well, Rahit, it's good to talk to you tonight and it's good to see you.
38:34I know you're on the way back to India, so we look forward to seeing you in person tomorrow.
38:38Look, the significance of this visit is that the United States cares about the relationship with India.
38:44And so you have the Secretary of State, who's also the National Security Advisor, who's coming to India for four
38:49days, which is quite unusual.
38:51When the Secretary travels, it's usually for one night, maybe two.
38:55He has yet to go to one place for four days.
38:58So when the Secretary visits here, he'll be going to Delhi, he'll be going to Calcutta, he'll be going to
39:02Agra, he'll be going to Jaipur.
39:03However, the significance is a lot.
39:06It's A, the relationship between our two countries.
39:08It's also a quad meeting.
39:10So we expect some big things to come out over the next few days.
39:15You know, you rightly said it's unusual.
39:18You know, he's beginning in Calcutta, you know, comes back to Delhi, does the bilateral, then does the Jaipur, Agra,
39:23comes back, does the quad.
39:24I mean, massive, massive, you know, four-day event.
39:28Just tell us, you know, what could be some tangible outcomes that we could be looking out for?
39:32I mean, there's the cultural aspect of it, there's the bilateral aspect of it, there's also the quad.
39:38I mean, any tangible outcomes that we could be looking at?
39:41I don't want to preempt the announcements, but there will be some announcements that relate to our bilateral relationship, but
39:47also some quad announcements.
39:49So as partners in the quad, we will have some deliverables that all four sides are very excited about.
39:55And so that will come out over the next few days.
39:58Individually, between the United States and India, this is something that we've been building on over the last few months.
40:04I've been here now almost five months.
40:06The Secretary has engaged with Dr. Jay Shankar on a very regular basis.
40:10They have met multiple times, both in the United States, on the sideline, at other events.
40:15So this is a continuation of that, but we do expect to see some results of that.
40:20Talk is good, but action is even better.
40:22And so since I have arrived in India, we have seen that on a monthly basis.
40:26In my first month, we worked on closing the trade deal, which is now in the final stages of getting
40:30signed.
40:31But for all intents and purposes, the trade deal is done.
40:35The legal language is what is being worked out on.
40:38The next month, India was added into Paxilica, one of the first 10 nations in the world that was added.
40:43The reason India was added is because it's a trusted partner to us.
40:47And so we've continued to build upon that.
40:50The Secretary coming here is as big as it gets outside of the president.
40:53So we're beyond excited to have him here.
40:57Ambassador, it is very interesting that you said that because Secretary Rubio, even when he was a senator,
41:03he wanted America to get closer to India.
41:07As you rightly said, he is an NSA and a Secretary of State.
41:11You know, what message is he carrying from the president of the United States?
41:15Because as you said, I mean, you know, he is the biggest person after the president when it comes to
41:19the bilateral relationship.
41:20Any message you think, you know, he's carrying from President Trump or India?
41:24Look, I think the message is that we want to work even closer with India.
41:27The president, as you know, as I've often said, holds the prime minister in very high regard.
41:31And the message will be clear.
41:33The United States and India are national partners.
41:36And that's something we hope to build upon.
41:37I spoke to the president two days ago, just before the secretary left for Europe.
41:42He's in Europe tonight and gets into India tomorrow.
41:45And the president was very clear on what he wants to see happen and what he wants to see come
41:49out of this trip.
41:50And that is our two sides working along hand in hand and identifying those win-win situations for both of
41:58our countries.
41:59This is Secretary Rubio's first visit to India.
42:01So it's an incredible thing.
42:03Any one of those things that you mentioned would be worth the trip, a quad meeting, the bilateral meetings,
42:08but also the fact that he's able to experience the incredible culture and history and, frankly, the warmth of the
42:14people.
42:15And Delhi's great, but it's also good that he's getting out of Delhi.
42:19Too many times visitors come to India for a few hours to have a meeting in Delhi and they depart.
42:24To me, that's not the full picture.
42:28That's rightly said.
42:29And before I let you go, sir, one last question.
42:32You know, Secretary Rubio, when he was boarding the plane from the U.S., he talked about how India is
42:37an ally and a partner.
42:38You know, he talked about America first.
42:39And he said that doesn't mean, you know, America alone.
42:42Is this a relationship where you think it's America first and taking India forward?
42:46I think, I think, as the secretary said, the two are not mutually exclusive.
42:50America first is not America alone.
42:52And so we do have identified partners that we do trust.
42:55There's a reason the quad is only four people.
42:58Two of them are some of our biggest allies, right?
43:00Japan and Australia.
43:02And so to have India in that group, in that mix, it's not by coincidence.
43:07And so I do think there's a lot that we can build upon.
43:12India and the prime minister have a friend in the Oval Office.
43:15It comes down to that.
43:16And so it is my job to bring those opportunities and identify those win-win situations, both for America and
43:23things that also the Indian side would appreciate.
43:28All right, Ambassador, thank you so much.
43:30You know, I know you have a busy schedule.
43:31We'll look forward to seeing you more in the next few days.
43:33And we'll keep, you know, chatting with you as the tip progresses.
43:36Thank you so much.
43:37We'll see you tomorrow, Rohit.
43:39Safe travels.
43:40Thank you, sir.
43:40Take care.
43:41Bye.
43:42Bye.
43:48That's the U.S. Ambassador to India, Sergio Gore, speaking exclusively to India today,
43:52indicating that when U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio visits India come tomorrow,
43:57you can expect some big bang announcements, some big developments as well.
44:02But let's focus really on Rubio's visit to India.
44:05This is his first official visit.
44:07And Marco Rubio has described India as a great partner,
44:11has signaled Washington's intent to deepen energy cooperation, in particular, with New Delhi.
44:16And this comes at a very important time because there have been concerns over rising global oil prices
44:21and supply disruptions, courtesy of the West Asia war.
44:24So what does this visit by Marco Rubio, the U.S. Secretary of State, actually mean for India?
44:29What will be the tangible takeaways?
44:32Let's decode all of that for you.
44:38U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio's first India visit is being seen as both symbolic and strategic.
44:47From the corridors of power in New Delhi to the cultural landmarks of Agra, Jaipur and Kolkata,
44:55the carefully planned itinerary is designed to project warmth in ties while addressing hard geopolitical realities.
45:04At the heart of the visit lies the Quad foreign ministers' meeting involving India, U.S., Japan and Australia,
45:11a grouping increasingly central to the Indo-Pacific strategy aimed at balancing China's growing influence.
45:19For Washington, India remains indispensable to its Indo-Pacific vision,
45:24especially at a time when global attention is divided between the West Asia conflict and the Ukraine war.
45:32Not just that, Rubio has also indicated that the United States wants a bigger role in India's energy basket,
45:40even hinting at possible cooperation involving Venezuelan oil supplies.
45:46We want to sell them as much energy as Obai.
45:48And obviously, you've seen, I think we're at historic levels of U.S. production and U.S. export.
45:52We want to be able to do more.
45:54We were already in talks with them to do more.
45:56We want it to be a bigger part of their portfolio.
46:00The energy market is bearing the brunt of the U.S. war on Iran.
46:05The state of Hormuz is choked and Washington wants India to shift to Venezuelan oil.
46:11In fact, Venezuela's interim president, Delcy Rodriguez, will be visiting India next week to discuss oil trade.
46:20There's a lot to work on with India.
46:21They're a great ally, a great partner.
46:22We do a lot of good work with them.
46:24And so it is an important trip.
46:25I'm glad we're able to do it because I think there'll be a lot for us to talk about.
46:28And we'll also meet with the Quad there, which is important.
46:30I think my first meeting as Secretary of State was with the Quad.
46:34U.S. is also confident that a bilateral trade deal with India
46:38will be finalized in coming weeks.
46:40But New Delhi is walking a careful diplomatic tightrope.
46:45While India values deeper cooperation with the U.S. in defense, technology and trade,
46:51it is equally determined to preserve its strategic autonomy.
46:56That balancing act is visible in India's parallel engagement with both Quad and Briggs,
47:02signaling that New Delhi will engage across rival power blocks without fully aligning with either side.
47:10Bureau Report, India Today.
47:16Okay, let me bring in on this broadcast Rohit Sharma,
47:19who just got us that exclusive conversation with the U.S. ambassador to India, Sergio Gore.
47:24Rohit is joining us live from Doha.
47:25He's headed to India along with that entire contingent.
47:28So, Rohit, good evening.
47:29First of all, congratulations on that exclusive.
47:31Good to hear from Sergio Gore on really the expectations of this visit by Marco Rubio.
47:37Look, there are a lot of expectations from India and I'm sure from America too.
47:40So, I'd like to hear from you really what are the takeaways that America is looking for from this visit.
47:47I think, as you know, actually, as we just heard from the ambassador,
47:50you know, I think this is unusual in the way this entire visit is.
47:54It's for four days.
47:55You know, he's starting off from Kolkata, he's then coming to Delhi.
47:58He's doing the bilateral, then he's also doing the quad ministerial.
48:01And there are various aspects of this relationship that I think America wants India to be,
48:06have a working partnership with, right?
48:08And it's, I mean, starts with energy security, something that he talked about when he was voting the flight to
48:12come to Europe and then to India.
48:14Then there's the aspect of, you know, making sure that supply chain, then there's SPAC silica.
48:18Then there is, you know, the whole aspect of making sure there are defense ties, counterterrorism.
48:24So, there's so many areas of engagement I think the U.S. has.
48:28And probably, you know, as Ambassador said, we don't want to get ahead of what the secretary is of the
48:34secretary.
48:34But really importantly, I think this is going to be very, very key in ensuring two things.
48:40First, that, you know, all the noise about, look, you know, probably India is forgotten by the U.S.
48:45And there's this new administration that really doesn't care about India.
48:48I think this is to ensure that people realize that India is central to America's foreign policy.
48:55India has not been forgotten.
48:56That's number one.
48:57Number two, yes, they are changing dynamics.
48:59I mean, we live in a very different world.
49:00And there has to be different level of engagements.
49:03And I think that is what this bilateral and plus, you know, the multilateral engagement will showcase.
49:10You will have topics that the U.S. and India will talk about.
49:14And then you talk about energy security and other Indo-Pacific and all those issues that also impact the world.
49:19So, I think it's going to be a very, very interesting and a keenly watched meeting because there are a
49:23lot of people in Washington, D.C.
49:25keeping a close eye on this bilateral relationship, on this visit of Second Rubio.
49:31And as Ambassador himself said, you know, it does not get any bigger than this.
49:35The only other person would be that would be President Trump.
49:37So, it's a very, very, very important bilateral meeting, in my opinion.
49:42Especially because we could actually be seeing a meeting almost next month between Prime Minister Modi and President Trump.
49:48That could perhaps happen on the sidelines of G7 in France.
49:51So, we'll wait to see whether that actually plays out.
49:54But I also found one very interesting aspect in that interview and the conversation that you had with Ambassador Kaur
49:59about how, Rohit, you know, they're diversifying the India visit.
50:02Not just sticking to the capital, not just sticking to Delhi.
50:05You'll have the U.S. Secretary of State visiting Kolkata, visiting Agra, visiting Delhi as well, of course.
50:11So, that will be some interesting optics as well.
50:14Thanks very much, Rohit, for joining us.
50:16Have a safe flight going forward.
50:18We'll see you very soon here in Delhi.
50:20Let's get across to more breaking news coming in.
50:30And the U.S. Secretary of State, Marco Rubio's messaging on what's happening with Iran is also crucial.
50:36And now, he's once again called out Iran over the Strait of Ormuz and the toll that's been slapped in
50:43the Strait of Ormuz.
50:44Marco Rubio's made it very, very clear that no country in the world should find this acceptable.
50:50Essentially calling for the world to unite against Iran, creating a tolling system on the Ormuz.
50:55Rubio has also confirmed that America is doing everything they can to achieve global consensus to prevent Iran from creating
51:02that tolling system.
51:04There are a lot of questions right now about whether there's been headway in talks.
51:08That's still made continuous.
51:09But amid that, you've got America once again making it very, very clear that the Strait of Ormuz,
51:15clearing it up, ensuring there's no toll, is one of the biggest issues they want addressed.
51:23Iran can never have a nuclear weapon.
51:25It just cannot, they, not on, it's, this regime can never have nuclear weapons.
51:29And to achieve that, we're going to have to address the issue of enrichment.
51:32We're going to have to address the issue of the highly enriched uranium.
51:35And then added to this, of course, is the issue of the Straits.
51:37Iran is trying to create a tolling system.
51:39They're trying to convince Oman, by the way, to join them in this tolling system, in an international waterway.
51:44There is not a country in the world that should accept that.
51:46We are doing everything we can, though, to achieve the sort of global consensus that's necessary to prevent this from
51:52happening.
51:53And we're trying to use the United Nations.
51:55Let's see if the United Nations still works.
51:57That's a place that we're going to try to get an outcome for.
52:00And obviously, I think almost every country represented here today has signed on as a co-sponsor of that resolution.
52:06And if they haven't, I'm sure they soon will.
52:08Because I don't know of anyone in the world that would, that should be in favor of a tolling system
52:12in an international waterway.
52:13That's just not acceptable.
52:16Okay, let's bring in Geeta Mohan for more details on this.
52:19Geeta, you know, you've got the U.S. once again reiterating very, very clearly that as far as the Strait
52:24of Hormuz goes
52:25and the tolling system that Iran has been talking about, that's simply unacceptable.
52:28But these kind of messages that come in from America kind of once again signal that there's no real breakthrough
52:34that's been achieved in the last few days as far as those talks or dialogue is concerned.
52:39Well, Akshita, look at the stage where Marco Rubio is standing.
52:43He's standing with Marco Rubio, the NATO chief, at a NATO conference or on the sidelines of the NATO conference
52:50where he is addressing the media.
52:53So very clear message, not just to Iran that this is unacceptable,
52:57but particularly to America's NATO partners and allies that they did not come to America's rescue
53:05when America asked and sought help from them to the European partners that they have not done anything to help
53:12America in this war
53:14and that in the future, should there be a peace deal and Iran continues to toll the Strait,
53:20then it will be a huge cost to bear for the world and the global economy
53:25and their allies and partners have to rise to oppose this.
53:30For now, this is a creation of America.
53:33The Strait of Hormuz was always free.
53:35It was always navigable by international vessels and now it is closed.
53:41If it opens, there will be toll, but that has nothing to do with what Iran really did in the
53:46past.
53:46It has to do with what Iran intends to do in the future.
53:50And I don't think anybody at this point in time has the stomach to have another confrontation with Iran.
53:56Neither does America nor does the world.
53:58Okay, Geeta, just stay with me because, you know, even as we're focusing on what's happening in the West Asia
54:03conflict,
54:04what's also been spoken about in the last one week is how China has become the power center for all
54:10diplomatic efforts.
54:12If you had the U.S. President Donald Trump visiting and days later Russian President Vladimir Putin,
54:17now Pakistan Prime Minister Shahbaz Sharif is also headed to China for a crucial four-day visit.
54:22That visit kicks off from tomorrow.
54:25And it comes at a time, of course, when Beijing and Islamabad are increasingly positioning themselves
54:30as key diplomatic players in efforts to stabilize the deteriorating situation in West Asia.
54:37We've seen Pakistan very consciously do it.
54:39China is a perfect position also to step in.
54:42So, Geeta, take us through what's on the agenda.
54:44You know, it's interesting.
54:44What we're talking about then is three high-profile visits in a matter of one week to China.
54:50Well, that's right.
54:50And also, the Pakistani visit comes after Trump's visit.
54:54Should it have happened before, there would have been a lot of problem for Islamabad,
55:00particularly Raul Pindi, that's Field Marshal Asam Muneer, questioning Pakistan's ties with China.
55:07But because Trump visited, followed by Putin, and then Shahbaz Sharif is visiting, there would be less trouble.
55:14This is Pakistan's balancing act where they want to stay allies with America and remain friends with China.
55:22And we can see that play out in real time with Shahbaz Sharif now headed to Beijing.
55:27But like you said, the more important question over here is which is the capital that is becoming the real
55:33negotiating ground for peacemaking?
55:34And that is absolutely Beijing at this point in time.
55:38Look at all the countries that are reaching out and moving and visiting Beijing.
55:42Not just these three leaders.
55:44We have all the top European leaders who have in the recent past visited Beijing.
55:49Some not once, but twice or thrice over.
55:51So, this is a power game.
55:54Again, the shift, not Beijing's creation, primarily Washington's creation.
56:00But yes, Beijing stands to gain with all the conflicts, no resolution in sight.
56:04And Beijing has the cards when it comes to all players needing China right now,
56:09whether it's global supply chain or negotiating terms and conditions.
56:13All right, Geeta, we leave it at that.
56:15Thanks very much for joining us here on India First.
56:17We'll be tracking very closely the big takeaways of the Pakistan Prime Minister's visit to China.
56:22China emerging as the big, big power center.
56:25That's all we have time for in this edition of India First.
56:27Thanks very much for tuning in.
56:29Good night.
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