- 9 hours ago
This conversation with Rajdeep Sardesai dives into the shifting political landscape.
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00:00You have a mother, I have a king.
00:02A decade ago, Shuvendu Adhikari was organizing tea for everyone on the instructions of Mamata Banerjee.
00:07I don't think Shashi in the last few years has invested enough in Canada.
00:10DM, CM, PM. These are the only three powerful positions.
00:15So Mr. Venugopal by that logic will be more than keen?
00:18More than keen, he will do a somersault.
00:21This is the problem we have. When the Congress takes a long time, we will headline.
00:25How many days has the Congress taken to a chief minister?
00:27But then they find a Yogi Adhitina with the Congress.
00:30Yeah, well, you know, look, dissing the Congress is a national sport.
00:33The Congress of today is far more democratic in choosing chief ministers than the BJP.
00:39A friend of mine told me the way to Jailarita's heart is to take her Ruskin Bond book.
00:43I got Ruskin Bond to sign the copies.
00:45Vijay is a superstar.
00:46What he was worried about was money.
00:49I have a huge problem with the kind of politics that Hemantabhiswa Sarma plays.
00:53Unfortunately, the double engine model seems to work.
00:57If it's working, who's going to break it?
01:00Rajdeep sir, welcome to MOH. This is the first time we are having this chat one-on-one.
01:04Thanks, Manish.
01:05And lots of burning questions today, especially with what happened in Calcutta and Mamta Banerjee.
01:10But I'm going to ask you, the first question is about what happened in 326 BC.
01:17That is…
01:19326 BC. Now you're testing my general knowledge.
01:22I don't know what happened.
01:23You look a little puzzled. So let me break it down for you.
01:25So 326 BC is when Alexander's army reached all the way as east as the Bias River.
01:32So after having won the battle against Porus at Jheelam, they crossed Chennav another river and then they reached Bias.
01:38By which time the Alexander Ka Kaarekarta got a little tired.
01:42And Alexander was told by his army that no further east.
01:45And Alexander apparently went back into his tent and sulked for three days before marching on to his next destination.
01:51So, which is why he never…
01:53He never crossed the Bias.
01:54Right.
01:54Now, my question to you is, do you think the BJP Kaarekarta will ever get tired?
02:01Will the BJP Kaarekarta ever get tired?
02:05Who gets tired of winning?
02:06You know, Alexander took a long road all the way from Greece to come to India.
02:12The BJP isn't taking quite that long road when they have to travel from Delhi to Kolkata.
02:17You can take a Wande Bharat train, presumably, or you certainly can take a flight to Kolkata.
02:24But it's quite incredible when you think about it.
02:27And just, you know, I look at the map of India, contrast India 2014 and contrast it with 2024.
02:34And the big contrast is that if you drew the map, you'd still have large shades of blue.
02:39Blue-wing opposition-ruled states in 2014.
02:42And now in 2026, we have 21 states ruled by BJP and its allies are at 28.
02:49And the last time I can think that could have happened was the Congress in its pomp in the 60s
02:55and early 70s.
02:56So, it's almost 50 years later that we are seeing this kind of dominance over Indian politics.
03:01You walk all the way from the Rana of Kutch to the Bay of Bengal and then maybe take a
03:06detour to go to the Arunachal hills.
03:08You only have saffron.
03:10Yeah, that's true.
03:11But I'll draw your attention back to what happened in Kolkata today and Mantha Banerjee.
03:15Do you see any, do you, can you think of any other, any parallel in history that comes close to
03:21what happened in Kolkata today?
03:23So, you know, Twitter is all abuzz about how, you know, there are people equating her with what Trump had
03:29said when he lost his election.
03:32Is there a parallel and how do we make sense of what happened?
03:36You know, with Mantha Banerjee, much like Donald Trump, they enjoy a bit of political drama and theatre.
03:44I mean, a lot of our politicians increasingly do.
03:46Everyone is playing to the gallery and Mantha Banerjee is no different.
03:49Look, the West Bengal Assembly's tenure ends on the 7th.
03:53So, she has to, even if she doesn't officially hand over a resignation to the Raj Bhavan, her term comes
04:00to an end and the Raj Bhavan will call whoever the BJP chooses the legislature party leader.
04:06Would she be setting the right precedent if she were to not put in her papers and wait?
04:10You know, personally, I believe that once you've lost, you've got to follow propriety, constitutional propriety.
04:15And constitutional propriety demands that you accept the verdict with grace and hand over your resignation letter.
04:21Isn't that the foundational democratic thing to do, like the peaceful transfer?
04:24Absolutely. Absolutely.
04:25I believe that, you know, once you've lost an election, you should hand over your resignation right away.
04:30If then you have issues with the way the elections were conducted, election commission, you know, you need, you are
04:38perfectly entitled, I believe, to agitate over it.
04:40I don't think anyone should stop a politician or anyone from agitating against if they see it as perceived injustice.
04:47Go to the courts, go to hit the streets, form coalition. Worst case, if you feel so strongly decided, we
04:53are not going to call, we are going to boycott the next election until we have a, what, what could
04:57be described as a level playing field.
04:59But I think once you've lost and lost by that kind of a margin, the first thing you do is
05:04accept the verdict of the people gracefully, hand over your resignation and carry on your battles.
05:10I mean, I don't think anyone should stop a politician, particularly someone who has a reputation of a street fighter
05:16like Mamata Banerjee from carrying on her, carrying on her politics the way she wants.
05:21Given what you just said, what is more true? Do you think Mamata lost Bengal or was it more of
05:27a case of the BJP winning that state?
05:29It's a bit of both. It's a bit of both. I think, I don't think the BJP would have won
05:34Bengal without Mamata losing it.
05:35So, I think the first thing was somewhere down the line that trust and the connect that she had built
05:42with the people of Bengal over 15 years, it started to evaporate.
05:48Not necessarily because of what she had done, but also because of perhaps the government, the style of governance.
05:55And there were various sort of issues which were flagged off from time to time, which exploded. RG car being
06:02a classic example a couple of years ago fueled urban, you know, urban anger.
06:07The irony is the Kolkata police cracked the case. They arrested the right people. They got a conviction.
06:13But the manner in which the West Bengal government was seen to handle RG car fueled a latent anger that
06:19the government's governance systems had collapsed.
06:22So, how does it happen? Like somebody who's come from the, who's risen from the grassroots, how can a leader
06:28like her, as street smart as she is, how does she not see the writing on the wall?
06:32Of course, journalists like us, we sound wiser in hindsight, definitely. But, you know, we can all say that she
06:39refused to see the writing on the wall, etc.
06:41But how does it happen to a politician like Manata Banerjee? What went wrong?
06:47No, I think, I think what, look, 15 years in power. So, it's a mix of fatigue. There's, it's a
06:55mix of fatigue, of an element of complacency, of an, of an element of, of almost being surrounded by people
07:06who only will tell you what you want to hear.
07:10Was there any moment in time that you, you thought you've probably felt that she's losing her grip on the
07:17state? Is there anything anecdotal in nature that you can share with us?
07:20No, I, I think her third term from 2021 was when I think Manata Banerjee particularly started to show signs
07:32of, of the government tiring.
07:35You see, I, I want to make a distinction between Mamata Banerjee, the individual, and Mamata Banerjee, the government that
07:42she was running.
07:42A lot of the allegations and the anger is against local councillors, local leaders who are allegedly involved in cut
07:50money, syndicates.
07:51You want a project somewhere, you want some land somewhere, you've got to pay someone an amount of money and
07:56that extended well beyond Kolkata into, into rural Bengal.
08:01Right. And I think that is where Mamata Banerjee got disconnected, either chose to turn a blind eye to it.
08:08Because, you know, when you've come through a, as you said, grassroots movement, you tend to be very loyal to
08:14the people who have stayed with you through those 30 years.
08:17And then you don't see the, the negatives that have crept in. So, you know, power corrupts.
08:24And I think at some stage, that corruption got institutionalized and ingrained into the system where everyone thought they could
08:33get away with it.
08:34Because when you won three consecutive elections with such massive majorities, you think you're there forever.
08:39Right. And you tend to take your voter for granted. Or you tend to take your vote bank for granted.
08:44Or you believe that, you know, I'm, I, and I think, that's why I said, I want to make a
08:49distinction between Mamata Banerjee 1.0, 2.0, 3.0.
08:52I think in 1.0, her main aim was just to consolidate and ensure the left, which had sort of
08:58been this giant that had shadowed her political career, that the giant was dwarfed.
09:05Right. So, her first five years were in consolidation, which meant, of course, that, you know, ensure that I have
09:11complete dominance.
09:12The next five years were actually, I think, the best years of Mamata Banerjee.
09:17Kalkuda looked a little better. Kalkuda started looking better. She, you know, genuinely wanted to do, the welfarism schemes were
09:23launched. The, you know, many of them were in many ways were revolutionary.
09:28True. Now, every state has a scheme, for example, for women. But Mamata Banerjee had a series of welfare benefits
09:34that she put in.
09:35And I think she was, you know, she's an old style, almost Congress socialist in that sense. Still lives in
09:40her old house in Kaligat. And I think genuinely was someone who had entered public life with a sense of
09:46mission.
09:46By the time, towards the end, by 2019, once Bam is replaced by Ram, Bam, IE, the left, is replaced
09:55by Ram, and suddenly Mamata Banerjee realizes she's facing a very different challenge to the Modi challenge.
10:02Because, you see, at the end of the day, for an opposition-ruled government in India, it's not easy to
10:07face an expansionist BJP.
10:10You don't get the same kind of benefits that a BJP-ruled state can. The double-engine model discriminates essentially
10:17against opposition-ruled states.
10:19So, she was looking over her shoulder. What will Modi do next? What will the BJP, is the BJP now
10:24entering Bengal?
10:25And I think when she won again in 2021, she forgot that she continued, she needed to go back and
10:34again go back to the, to basic governance.
10:37Also, there was an interesting subplot in 2021 when she lost Nandigram to Shuvindu. And, but the next, the following
10:43five years, there was no sense you got that, that she was taking the local leadership of Bengal, which is
10:49BJP's so-called weakness in that state.
10:51She was not taking it seriously. So, maybe there's an element of overconfidence.
10:55I think so. I think an element of complacency. I think, you know, leaders sometimes believe in their own myth.
11:02True. That, you know, the people are with us. They, they are my loyalists. The Mahila are with me. The
11:07Muslims are with me. The people of Bengal, Muslims and Hindus are with me.
11:12I, you know, they know the struggles I've gone through. And I think, as a result, you can get disconnected
11:17from the ground realities.
11:18Right. It, it, it, it happens to, to many leaders over the years. I'm trying to think of, of parallels
11:25of those who've been around for so many years.
11:27And maybe Namin Patnai, 25 years in power, two years ago, suddenly found that the ground was shifting under his
11:33feet in Odisha without quite realizing it.
11:36The left itself in, in, in, in West Bengal. I mean, these are, you know, when you, long serving governments
11:44over the years, need constant reinvention.
11:48And I've always believed no chief minister or prime minister in India, a controversial thing to say.
11:54I believe no prime minister or chief minister in India should have more than two terms.
11:58Right. 10 years. There the America has eight years. India should have 10. After 10 years, give it to someone
12:05else.
12:06Let them take forward your mission because, you know, you're constantly then playing to a very familiar playbook.
12:13Absolutely. So, I mean, that, that might seem controversial, but that's the way I see it. I mean, I think,
12:18at some stage, and leaders should groom the next generation.
12:22And the way you groom it, every 10 years, recharge the battery by getting in new faces, new energies. The
12:28truth, though, is that when you run these regional parties, which are run strongly by an individual,
12:34they are loath to give it up. Plus, the rank and file will not accept anyone else. Nor will the
12:40audiences. The voters voted for Mamta Bandi. She still got 41% of the vote.
12:45She did. I mean, she's come from 48, 48 down to 41. The BJP has gone up from 38 to
12:5045. But 41% of a six point odd crore population, voter population.
12:58That brings me to my next question, which is, which is what a lot of people want you to answer.
13:04What are your sources in the BJP telling you about who is the likely candidate to take over writer's building
13:10next?
13:11Is it Shuvendu Adhikari, you think? There were two names during the round.
13:16Shuvendu Adhikari, by virtue of the fact that he's defeated Mamta Banerjee twice. Nandi Gram and now Bhawanipur is obviously
13:23the front runner.
13:24And he has the backing of the one person who, I think, for whom Mission Bengal was key, Amit Shah.
13:30Mere paas Shah hai. Tummare paas maa hai, mere paas Shah hai. So, he's got Shah on his side. And
13:36I think that will, and Amit Shah has been appointed.
13:39Isn't that all that it takes? A lot of, a lot of the chief ministers have been appointed because they
13:45are the blessings of Shah and Modi.
13:47You know, they are the Jodi number one as I call them in my 2024 book. And that Jodi number
13:52one decides all these issues.
13:54There is Shamik Bhattacharya. A little bit more soft spoken. Certainly, perhaps less contentious, controversial, less of a pugilist.
14:06And RSS would like someone like that because they see, think, I think he fits in more. He's part of
14:11the original, in a way, BJP.
14:14Shuvendu, at the end of the day, is an import. I mean, I still remember Shuvendu Adhikari when Mamta Banerjee
14:20once came to parliament and we, all of us journalists were sitting in central hall.
14:25And we saw that Shuvendu Adhikari was put in charge of ensuring everyone got tea. And that's about a decade
14:32ago. So, a decade ago, Shuvendu Adhikari was organizing tea for everyone in central hall on the instructions of Mamta
14:39Banerjee.
14:40Ten years later, he's replacing Mamta Banerjee. He was, you know, at one stage, her sort of strong man in
14:47Nandigram, where it all really began for her.
14:49How do you rate him as a politician? Do you think he is like a really wily, you know, a
14:54smart politician who's defeated the CM twice?
14:57Or do you think he's just a medium for that anti-TMC sentiment and he just happens to be the
15:04conduit and not so much a leader in his own right?
15:07No, I think, look, once you've defeated a three-time chief minister twice, you can claim to be a leader.
15:12But I think Shuvendu Adhikari does not have that kind of mass connect with the, he's not a mass leader
15:19in that sense.
15:19He's become a leader of the Hindutva Brigade that has emerged in Bengal. Those who are unafraid of saying Jai
15:29Shri Ram on the streets of Kolkata.
15:31You know, the kind of chant you wouldn't have heard in Kolkata even ten years ago. So, he's unapologetic about
15:37it.
15:37And therefore, I think he fits in with a particular new BJP model of very muscular leadership.
15:44Also, winning from Bhavanipur would be important for someone like him.
15:47It would be, but you know, one of the patterns in this era, because Bhavanipur is of course where Mamata
15:53Banerjee has lived for years and she's a seven-time MP. We forget that.
15:58Yeah. Yeah. Quite apart from being a three-time chief minister. But I think Shuvendu Adhikari winning from Bhavanipur not
16:05surprising given the way Kolkata voted.
16:07So, I think there's a distinct pattern that emerged in this election that in Hindu dominated seats, the BJP did
16:13very well. There is a creeping polarization.
16:15So, there was anti-incumbency i.e. anger against 15 years of what they saw by the end was pretty
16:22much unacceptable style of governance.
16:26Right, right.
16:26Matched with…
16:27So, we'll go down south now, where before I ask you the question about who's the likely CM candidate from
16:33the Congress for Kerala, I'd like to just discuss the point about the future of communism in India.
16:40As we speak, there are I think more dinosaur eggs in India than there are left-front MPs in parliament.
16:47Where… what happened to communism in India? Do you think this is a cyclical thing or are they done for?
16:53Look, I never write off any… I wouldn't write off anyone in Indian politics. Just think about it. 20 years
16:58ago, the Manmohan Singh government was being propped up by the left.
17:02The left was deciding a policy. The common…
17:06The biggest blunder they've made.
17:07No, the biggest blunder was 30 years ago when Jyoti Basu was offered prime minister…
17:12…in the United Front government and refused to become prime minister. So, 30 years ago, they were offered prime ministers,
17:17refused it in a coalition government.
17:1920 years ago, they decided Manmohan Singh's government in 2004. 2026, they're not in power in any Indian state.
17:26True.
17:27I mean, look, I don't know whether it's cyclical, but I guess in this new India, where Hindutva has taken
17:35centre stage, the left has…
17:38…and a new liberalised… and the new politics of liberalisation. I think the left is seen as part of the
17:45old world.
17:45We're seeing a generational change. I mean, you're talking about south. We could talk about this because…
17:50…I mean, one of the things that this election has shown… I was speaking to a politician is…
17:54…just until now, in recent elections, we focused on the Mahila woman vote. In 2026, we also need to look
18:02at the Yuva…
18:02…Yuva vote, the youth vote, the gentification of India.
18:06They're coming into their own, yeah.
18:0742… 40 to 42 percent of Tamil Nadu was under the age of 40 in this election. And over 50
18:13percent of that 40…
18:15…under 40 demographic voted for Vijay. Vijay's got 35 percent of the vote. It's almost as if there's a generational
18:22split.
18:22If you're old like me, you're more likely to vote in Tamil Nadu for the Dravidian parties.
18:26If you're young like you or Jessica or whoever else is here, you're more likely to vote for Vijay.
18:33So, there's a youth factor and attraction. We saw it in Nepal and we're seeing it in other parts of
18:38the world.
18:38We saw it in Dhaka. We saw it in Dhaka. People want younger faces, newer faces, fresher faces.
18:44We don't want to see the same old people time and again. So, you know, that's…
18:49…maybe the left has not been able to sort of make itself attractive to this new aspirational India in the
18:56way that Narendra Modi has.
18:58I mean, Mr. Modi's great skill and that's why he's been prime minister, I think, three times and more. He's
19:03very flexible.
19:05One of his guys once told me he will have… he will do a morning meeting with, let's say, his
19:13bureaucrats and politicians, typical political meeting.
19:16He may have a lunch with young startup entrepreneurs and he'll do dinner or, you know, tea with some farmer
19:24community.
19:25And then, in dinner, he may do a photo op with some cricket team. So, in a day, he's covered
19:32four different demographics.
19:33From what I hear about you, apparently, you had a similar day on count… on the election result day.
19:39You started your day around 6 and you were tweeting late into the night. How do people like you and
19:44Mr. Modi do this?
19:46Mr. Modi is 76. I'm only 61. So, I've got… I'm going to be 61 this month. So, you know,
19:52we're… we're 15 years apart. But election day always excites me.
19:56So, I set my alarm for 4.30, reach office at 5.15. This time, reach particularly early because I
20:01had to wear a mundu.
20:02Yeah, I saw. And I had to get my producer to help me dress up in a mundu and my
20:07kurta with it. Just because we thought, you know, one of the things that always attracts me about this wonderful
20:13country is just the sheer diversity.
20:15Right. You know, if you go to Kerala today, Bengal seems a long, distant, you know, very, very far away.
20:21There's the Congress celebrating. You go to Bengal, it's the BJP in Saffron.
20:26You go to Chennai, they're, you know, talking about BJP. It's like three different parts of the world almost. And
20:32that reflects in our cuisine. It reflects in our clothes.
20:35But yeah, election day is the one day that I'm more than happy to do whatever it takes to get
20:42excited about it because I've been doing it for 38 years.
20:45So, it's a bit like driving a car now. You know, when to go into first gear, second gear, third
20:49gear. It's enjoyable.
20:50Right. So, let me take you back to Kerala. Who do you think the front runners are? From the latest
20:55buzz that I hear is Mr. KC Veenu Gopal has a fair chance considering he had a fair amount of
21:01say in which candidates got the tickets.
21:05Is there any buzz that you've come across?
21:08Yeah, look, it's interesting that the moment the Congress wins a state, the immediate answer is Korn Banega Mukhyamantri.
21:16And they take a really long time sometimes.
21:18So, in the case, well, to be fair, so does the BJP. I mean, with Yogi Adityanath, you know, this
21:22is the problem we have.
21:23When the Congress takes a long time, we'll headline, how many days has the Congress taken to a Chief Minister?
21:28Yogi Adityanath took a couple of weeks. But nobody asked, you know, why is the BJP taking so long to
21:33decide on a Chief Minister?
21:34Why would you find a Yogi Adityanath with the Congress? Yeah, well, you know, look, they've got some things right.
21:38Let's not say they've got everything wrong.
21:40I mean, to be fair, I mean, I'm going to be entirely fair here. The Congress of today is far
21:46more democratic in choosing Chief Ministers than the BJP.
21:50I mean, Yogi Adityanath was not even an MLA when he was made Chief Minister. He was not one of
21:55the names being mentioned.
21:56He became Chief Minister not because the legislators asked for him, but because Delhi and the RSS decided on him.
22:01And that's true of all their Chief Ministers.
22:03It's not being decided by legislators. To be fair, the Congress processes, you send an observer.
22:08MLAs will give their choice. Then you come to Delhi, high command decides. But I must give Rahul Gandhi this.
22:14By and large, he's gone with the view of the legislators.
22:17So, to answer your question, KC Venugopal seems to have the support, seems to have the support of most of
22:22the legislators of the Congress party.
22:24Remember, there are allies as well. Congress has won 60-odd seats. The allies have won about 40. It's the
22:29biggest win the Congress has had.
22:31Considering the access Mr. Venugopal has with the family, with Rahul himself, do you think this would be a promotion
22:37to go and become the CM of a state?
22:40What's the equation? What's the political play there?
22:42Manish, there are only three things one politician told me that really matter in India. DM, CM, PM.
22:49Right.
22:50These are the only three powerful positions. The rest will go. I will become DM. If you are a bureaucrat,
22:56you will become DM.
22:56The politician will become CM and the only person will become PM in 140 crores. So, it's like becoming cricket
23:03captain.
23:03So, Mr. Venugopal, by that logic, would be more than keen. More than keen. He will do a somersault and
23:10move straight from Delhi to Trivandrum by the fastest train there or flight that you can give him.
23:17But, there is VD Satishan, who I was supposed to interview. He is now caught in a celebration that he
23:24is having in Erna Kulam. So, hopefully, he is very articulate.
23:27He is the one who is the leader of the opposition. He has been leading the charge against…
23:30There is one name you haven't mentioned so far, which is English-speaking people of the younger age in Northern
23:37India want to hear.
23:39Okay, so…
23:40What happens to him?
23:41So, before I mention that name, there is VD Satishan, very articulate and pugnacious and has been taking the fight
23:47to the left in Kerala.
23:48He's got a, you know, he's got a fair chance. People will want him, I guess. Then you've got Ramesh
23:55Cherithana, old war horse.
23:57Yeah.
23:57And you've got the man you want or maybe the one, you know, the Gen Z choice would be Shashi
24:03Tharoor.
24:04But, as they say, you know, Shashi Tharoor is attractive for a TV watching audience in this country.
24:13Is he as attractive to the factionalized Congress in Kerala? Sadly, no. And I don't think Shashi in the last
24:19few years has invested enough in Kerala.
24:21He was very much part of the campaign and I think that helped the Congress. For once the Congress ran
24:26a united campaign in Kerala. I think they learned the lessons from Haryana.
24:30You see…
24:31And it showed in the numbers as well.
24:33Yeah.
24:33Dissing the Congress is a national sport.
24:36Yeah.
24:37Jabhi Congress kohi galti kare bhi magnified headline banate ho. This is why we are called Godi Media.
24:41Now, if Congress takes four or five days to choose their chief minister, every day we will say, where is
24:46the Congress's chief minister?
24:47Right? I mean, BJP has no option but to choose the chief minister first in Bengal because I think the
24:53assembly's term is ending in a couple of days.
24:56But, you know, I would think that the most likely choice is one of these three. Venugopal, Satishan and Chenitala.
25:05Probably between Venugopal and Satishan. But in the Congress, if two guys fight, the third can also come through.
25:11Right.
25:12In the BJP, I was told this. If you put four names on TV saying these are your four top
25:17contenders, make sure Mr. Modi sees your channel because then none of the four will become.
25:21Yeah.
25:21And I did a program once and put one of these guys as a contender for us as the chief
25:25minister of one of the states.
25:26He rang me up.
25:27Yaar, mera naam mat lao.
25:28I said, why not?
25:29He said, then, kubhi Modi ji about me nahi banayenge.
25:32Ki Rajdeep ji aapne show par kare hai ye mukhe mantre banayenge toh paachwe kohi banayenge.
25:36No, but that, let's talk about Tamil Nadu where I think one of the most exciting political subplots has just
25:43unfolded right in front of our eyes.
25:45Nobody, at least in Delhi, nobody really thought that Vijay could…
25:49No, you got to see my video blog, Biver the Vijay Factor. It's written, it's done about exactly three weeks
25:55ago.
25:55Right.
25:55I traveled through Tamil Nadu. Look, I'm not saying I predicted he'd get more than 100 seats, he'd be party
26:01number one.
26:02But I said, there's a line, I said, the only question to answer in Tamil Nadu is, will Vijay be
26:08king or kingmaker?
26:09Right.
26:09So, he's become king.
26:10So, from what I hear, apparently, this question was posed to him by a very senior news anchor. I'm not
26:14sure whether it was you.
26:16And he said, wait and watch. I'm not in this to become a kingmaker. I am the king. Was… Is
26:22this something that he's told you?
26:23I had a 45-minute conversation with him. I think he said something similar on those lines. You know, it
26:29was a strange conversation because his sort of leaders were kept outside and I was sitting inside.
26:36And he seemed to have all the time in the world. And finally, after one hour or 45 minutes, I
26:41had to say, sir, I've got another meeting.
26:43Normally, it's the politician who says he's got another meeting. But he was more than happy to chat and…
26:48Also, it's you he's talking to.
26:49No, no, no. It gave a lot of… No, because, ironically, he said, my father used to watch your program.
26:55So, I got worried.
26:56When someone's father is watching my program, it just tells you how old you are.
26:59Also, Tamil Nadu politicians that I have, you know, this few times that I get to watch TV debates, I
27:05find them very genial and they will, they will sort of address the anchor, sir and ma'am.
27:10Yeah. No, in general, South Indian politicians, if I may say so, by and large, are very, very respectful. Karnataka
27:17politicians, most accessible.
27:18Tamil Nadu politicians, the top ones, most inaccessible. I mean, my favorite story is trying to desperately get Jailalita's interview.
27:26A friend of mine told me the way to Jailalita's heart is to take her Ruskin Bond book. She loves
27:31Ruskin Bond. I got Ruskin Bond to sign the copies and take it to her. She saw them. She said,
27:37thank you very much. But you won't do it. I won't do an interview.
27:41I mean, that was Jailalita for you. But she was a mighty figure. Vijay is a superstar, you know, and
27:48I think for a superstar to make this kind of debut is quite incredible.
27:53Many years ago, I interviewed NTR. And NTR used to do interviews at 6 a.m. in the morning. And
28:00you had to go to his house at 4.30 and line up because you were just one of many
28:04people including bureaucrats and all who had lined up outside his Banjara Hills residence.
28:08So, he was a maverick. Vijay, I think, is a more regular person but likes to zealously guard his privacy.
28:15And therefore, when I asked him for an interview, he said, no, let me retain my mystique.
28:20And I said, shit, man, someone is using word like mystique.
28:22I have written a piece today comparing him with Dhoni who is also very reclusive and does not want to
28:27like to talk to the press.
28:28But did you discuss, like, what is his idea of Tamil Nadu, the idea of India, you know, how does
28:34he…
28:34No, I think he believes in a, you know, I think he broadly believes in the idea of religious harmony,
28:40secularism, jobs, opportunities for young, anti-corruption.
28:45So, a big mix of Arvind Kejriwal, a little bit of Rahul Gandhi somewhere. You know, so, I don't think
28:54he has a… he has any sort of agenda as such.
28:57Right.
28:59But, never underestimate, you know, these film stars. Because you never know how they will… I mean, the great MGR,
29:06of course, went through 25 years of politics before he became chief minister.
29:09But, NTR, you know, was a formidable figure. Became the head convener of the National Front, which in 1989, when
29:20V.P. Singh became prime minister.
29:21So, people again thought, you know, kitna din chalega, you know, he's a film star. So, they're mavericks.
29:28But, I think, the whole film industry teaches you a few things, including discipline and also the ability to connect
29:36with fans.
29:37Right.
29:37So, I think, you know, let's not underestimate Vijay…
29:40Do you have any inkling about if there is a, you know, team of backroom people that were working on
29:45a governance blueprint of sorts for him?
29:48Do we have… does anyone have any idea what… what's happening in Chennai?
29:52None whatsoever. Look, I think he… from what he told me, his father is a huge inspiration.
29:56This entire political career of Vijay has been shaped by his father. His father has guided him. His father wanted
30:02him to do this.
30:02Yeah, I think his father formed a party before he wanted to. That's right. That's right. And Vijay claimed that
30:08even his fan clubs were organized in a matter that they could transition to a political party.
30:12Right. And when I asked him, why didn't you do this earlier? He said, no, I was waiting for the
30:16right time, right place.
30:18It's almost like, you know, film star choosing when he wants to release his film. Will I release it along
30:23with two other hits?
30:24Right. Or two other big films? Or do I release it when there is no other film, big film on
30:28the…
30:29Also, one very interesting video we ran on more yesterday was Prashant Kishore last year, I think February or Jan,
30:34Feb, March, somewhere around that time, addressing one of those TVK sort of meetings.
30:40And he said that he's going to win. And after… if I make… when I make Vijay win Tamil Nadu,
30:47I, Prashant Kishore, will become more famous in Tamil Nadu than Dhoni. Did he mention PK at all?
30:53He did, but I can't, you know, I don't want to say… he basically said that there was… he wasn't…
31:00that PK wasn't involved in this campaign at all.
31:03That there's a myth. They did need… they went for… I think there was a… there's a photograph of PK
31:08with Vijay at a rally.
31:10But when I asked him, he said, no, PK is not involved in the campaign at all. He has a
31:15couple of other guys. There's a guy called John.
31:18Interestingly, one of his spokespersons turned out to be my own old cameraman editor from NDTV called Felix.
31:23Yeah, I saw that exchange on TV. On TV. So, you know, it just becomes… as you get older, you
31:28realize, my God, boy, I saw Felix came to our conclave in the…
31:31I said, Felix, what are you doing here? He said, no, I'm now spokesperson for TVK. I said, my God.
31:36And he said, he said, I've been Rajdeep's first student and…
31:39No, he's a student, but there's no one to say. But that's okay. But yeah. So, you know, he's kept
31:44it very tight.
31:47There's one guy I interviewed from TVK, Adav Arjun, who's the son-in-law of Santiago Martin, India's lottery king.
31:54And he's won in Chennai. So, Adav Arjun could well be a face of… I mean, he's the most savvy
32:01face, English-speaking.
32:03Are those… are associations of that nature somewhat responsible to the funding that the TVK…
32:11Well, I asked this of Adav and he, of course, said, no, no, I'm not funding Vijay. In fact, I've
32:16given up my businesses.
32:18I don't need to fund Vijay. He's already a superstar. But yeah, look, Tamil Nadu… and that was one of
32:23the things Vijay mentioned.
32:24What he was worried about was money. You know, how am I going to raise the kind of money that
32:31you require to win election, Tamil Nadu?
32:32And he's proved possibly with a lot of young people and, you know, getting new candidates, a bit like Kejriwal
32:38there, that they can win.
32:40Yeah. You know, just on Vijay's brand name. Without talking to the press so much as well.
32:43Not at all. Vijay just kept on the press. Yesterday, our reporter, Pramod Badav, sent me a picture. Exclusive.
32:50So, I thought, my God, Vijay exclusive? It turned out to be a fist bump. Fist bump? Exclusive? I mean,
32:57think about it.
32:58All the guys who went to meet Vijay were taking photographs with Vijay and coming out and saying exclusive. I
33:03mean, bizarre. You know, exclusive is an interview. It's not a photograph or a fist bump.
33:08True. Do you have any views to share about what happened in Assam? And maybe, and this is one of
33:16the last questions I'm going to ask you.
33:17What are some of the lessons for India after the election results in these five states?
33:23You know, three of the five states have seen anti-incumbency. Strong anti-incumbency. Ten years of Vijay, who incidentally
33:31I share a birthday with. He was 80.
33:34And I think he made the mistake of putting himself above the party. First time I've seen this in the
33:39left, where all the posters were about the individual.
33:42The modification of Kerala, of the left in a way. Then you had Stalin, who is all said and done.
33:52A dynast. A dynast, but has worked his way to where he spent 40 years really on the shop floor
33:58in Chennai, deputy mayor, mayor.
34:00But obviously, he's part of a legacy party. Right. Without necessarily reinventing it effectively enough.
34:07Did good things on the economy. Did it. So, anti-incumbency comes in various forms.
34:13It's not always because growth rates have shrunk. Tamil Nadu has the highest growth rate in the country last year.
34:18And yet they've lost. Because people saw the DMK as representing an older era. So, there was a need for
34:26a freshness.
34:27Generational shift in terms of voters. Yeah. So, you know, many of the legacy parties are struggling with that.
34:33The left struggled with the idea or left voters struggled with the idea that her personality is becoming larger than
34:38the party.
34:39And the third state where I think you saw anti-incumbency was Mamata Banerjee and we've discussed that.
34:45That Mamata Banerjee also in a way, after 15 years in power, seemed to lose that connect that she had.
34:52The, you know, that mass connect which was her biggest strength. And she's one of the few mass leaders we
34:57have.
34:57But we seem to lose that. So, they suffered. And then you have the BJP winning in Assam a hat
35:04-trick in a state again where they were 0 and 2011.
35:07A vivacious CM there. No, a CM really who's, you know, frankly, has become a very polarizing figure.
35:15But that polarization suits his demographic. 40% Muslim population, 60% Hindu. And he's playing to his so-called
35:24strengths.
35:25Dangerous, I think. But, you know, what do you say? When you win an election in India, they say,
35:33So, I mean, on a moral plank, I have a huge problem with the kind of politics that Hemanta Viswa
35:39Sarma plays from time to time.
35:41But the voters of Assam have won perhaps that kind of politics. So, who is to argue with what the
35:48voters want?
35:49And then the small state of Puducherry has an interesting figure, former congressman like Hemanta. In fact, there were three
35:56former congressmen who were in, were chief ministers in this race yesterday.
36:00There was Mamta, there was Mamta Banerjee, there was Hemanta Viswa Sarma and N Rangeswami of the AINRC in Puducherry.
36:08A party that he floated when he didn't get chief ministership about 15-16 years ago. Now, he's going to
36:14become chief minister again.
36:16And he's probably the best tennis-playing politician in the country. Everybody he gets up on a cycle, goes to
36:21play tennis or his bike.
36:23That you can do in Puducherry. In his shorts and goes and plays tennis. I think he's pretty old but
36:29still…
36:29Maybe one of the handful of people, you know, CMs who play tennis. Maybe Omar does.
36:34And one of the stories within a story, just as I mentioned that this casino king, Santiago Martin's son-in
36:40-law contested and won on a TVK ticket.
36:44His wife contested on an AIDMK ticket. And has also won in Tamil Nadu. And his son has contested in
36:52Puducherry.
36:54And will probably become a minister on his own party. So, you see, typical gambler's instinct, make sure that you
37:01keep your bets, hedge your bets on all sides.
37:03Bete ko bhi kar diya, bivi ko bhi kar diya aur damat ko bhi kar diya.
37:07So, talking about people who are winning elections, let's talk about the party, right? How many states does the BJP
37:12govern in India now?
37:1321 with its allies. There are a couple of allies like Chandu Babu Naidu is an ally.
37:17So many double-engine governments. Is that a good thing for India or a bad thing?
37:23You know, that's a question that requires, I think, a much longer program to be done.
37:28I think India, India is best represented by diversity. But unfortunately, the way our system is structured, unless you have
37:39a strong center, the states don't benefit.
37:41If you had a strong center that treated each state in a non-discriminatory manner, I would say, you know,
37:50let's have a diverse democracy.
37:53Where every state represents different viewpoints, different ideologies, different parties possibly.
37:58But because India, at the end of the day, despite what our constitution makers wanted, is so centralized, I think,
38:06unfortunately, the double-engine model seems to work.
38:09Because only then you get things done speedily. It's not the way it should be.
38:13We should be working to cooperative federalism, allowing a Tamil Nadu to find its own model.
38:19It can't be that every minister, every head of state who comes to this country is only taken to Gujarat.
38:26Why should they only see Ahmedabad? They should see every corner of this wonderful country of ours.
38:30But the double-engine model does that. So, I have my reservations about this double-engine model as being anti
38:36-federal in a way.
38:38But if it's working, who's going to break it? Who's going to break this model? I don't know.
38:44That's why I enjoyed the idea of Vijay Winning. I just liked the idea of someone who was an outlier
38:50from the system.
38:51You should have, you know, politics should have a few more mavericks. It just makes life more exciting on a
38:57day like yesterday.
38:59Rajdeep, sir, it was a pleasure talking to you. No, no, don't serve me.
39:02We'll see you again soon with Rajdeep, sir, here, hopefully. Thanks, man.
39:06Thanks for watching. Thank you very much. I've almost finished. Oh, God. I messed up mine. No worries.
39:14Thank you very much.
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