Why do people cheat—even in happy relationships? Are we expecting too much from one person? In this video, we explore powerful insights from Esther Perel on cheating, codependency, and modern love.
Discover why affairs are often less about betrayal and more about identity, how codependency can slowly kill attraction, and what it really takes to maintain deep emotional and romantic connection.
In today’s world, we expect our partners to be everything—best friend, lover, therapist, and soulmate. But this pressure can weaken desire and create distance. Learn how balancing independence and intimacy is the key to lasting love.
If you’ve ever questioned relationships, attraction, or emotional connection, this video will change your perspective.
👉 Topics Covered:
• Why people cheat
• The hidden truth behind affairs
• Codependency and loss of attraction
• Love vs desire explained
• How to build deeper connection
💡 Don’t forget to like, comment, and subscribe for more relationship insights.
Esther Perel, cheating psychology, why people cheat, modern relationships, codependency, relationship advice, love vs desire, emotional connection, relationship psychology, dating advice, infidelity explained, couples therapy, attraction in relationships, self growth, relationship tips, psychology of love, deep relationships, marriage advice, intimacy and desire, human behavior
#EstherPerel
#Cheating
#Infidelity
#ModernLove
#Relationships
#DatingAdvice
#LoveAndDesire
#Codependency
#RelationshipAdvice
#Psychology
#EmotionalConnection
#SelfGrowth
#Couples
#LoveLife
#ToxicRelationships
Discover why affairs are often less about betrayal and more about identity, how codependency can slowly kill attraction, and what it really takes to maintain deep emotional and romantic connection.
In today’s world, we expect our partners to be everything—best friend, lover, therapist, and soulmate. But this pressure can weaken desire and create distance. Learn how balancing independence and intimacy is the key to lasting love.
If you’ve ever questioned relationships, attraction, or emotional connection, this video will change your perspective.
👉 Topics Covered:
• Why people cheat
• The hidden truth behind affairs
• Codependency and loss of attraction
• Love vs desire explained
• How to build deeper connection
💡 Don’t forget to like, comment, and subscribe for more relationship insights.
Esther Perel, cheating psychology, why people cheat, modern relationships, codependency, relationship advice, love vs desire, emotional connection, relationship psychology, dating advice, infidelity explained, couples therapy, attraction in relationships, self growth, relationship tips, psychology of love, deep relationships, marriage advice, intimacy and desire, human behavior
#EstherPerel
#Cheating
#Infidelity
#ModernLove
#Relationships
#DatingAdvice
#LoveAndDesire
#Codependency
#RelationshipAdvice
#Psychology
#EmotionalConnection
#SelfGrowth
#Couples
#LoveLife
#ToxicRelationships
Category
📺
TVTranscript
00:00:04what is up daddy gang it is your founding father alex cooper with call her
00:00:13esther perel welcome back to call her daddy i'm it's a treat for me to be back third time i
00:00:20know
00:00:20i'm so happy this is the first time that we've met in person that's right and it feels right
00:00:25i remember during the pandemic i felt like you were my safe place i was like i need you we
00:00:31all
00:00:31need you talk to me and we had such an amazing we've had such amazing conversations and today
00:00:38i'm just ready to get back into it um for anyone who lives under a rock you are a renowned
00:00:44psychotherapist and a relationship expert you're also one of the best couples therapists out there
00:00:51you focus on modern relationships intimacy um infidelity and i think a lot of the things that
00:00:58you practice and focus on is going to be very relatable to my audience today so should we just
00:01:04get into it that's where shall we begin as you say on the podcast where should we begin i think
00:01:10a lot
00:01:10of women are really really discouraged by the current state of dating what do you think is just behind
00:01:16that there's a lot of things behind what's happening to dating dating is the symptom but
00:01:24maybe one way of asking is what's going on in the world of relationships okay um that is making dating
00:01:32more complicated the world of dating itself romantic consumerism is really challenging
00:01:39when you are constantly looking for the perfect and afraid to settle for the good when you are dealing
00:01:45continuously with the paradox of choice with so many options and looking for a soulmate on an app
00:01:51and with a tremendous case of fomo when the ick factor is so omnipresent and very very quick to kick
00:02:00in
00:02:01when we need more social skills than we ever needed before because we are living in such a contactless
00:02:08reality and we actually don't have the skills to speak to people to look at them what what is one
00:02:15of the
00:02:15first things we just did when we saw each other is touch you know we have been so disembodied so
00:02:21we
00:02:21looked at each other we smiled to each other we touched each other and we kind of really grounded
00:02:27ourselves in each other's presence so that we can have a conversation rather than trying to look for
00:02:32algorithmic perfection i completely agree with everything you just said but specifically i think
00:02:38what is very applicable to my audience is like we're looking for the perfect yes and we're so
00:02:44hyper fixated on because there's such an enormity of options out there because back in the day our
00:02:49parents never had the access we have they didn't know that there was a guy named mike in la who
00:02:55had a
00:02:56six pack that they can stalk like it was just the people that were in their proximity and i would
00:03:01love
00:03:02if you could expand a little bit more on like being inundated with relationship content online
00:03:07and through pop culture like how has that warped our idea of love and dating and what it's supposed
00:03:14to look like so the first thing is where does the perfection come from right many different sources but
00:03:22one that comes up immediately is when you look at your phone it will tell you from app to app
00:03:28where to go
00:03:29what to listen to where to eat what to watch next what to listen for next and it gives it
00:03:35to you
00:03:35without any ambiguity it gives it to you with utter predictability and perfection and all those
00:03:42technologies that we are having in the palm of our hand are promising to unburden us of all the
00:03:47inconveniences of life and this is in major part what is warping expectations between people because now
00:03:56i want my people that i meet to be just as predictable and just as perfect and just as
00:04:03unquestionable and just as certain as the responses that i get in the palm of my hand for every second
00:04:09question i have what happens between people is filled with uncertainty it's experimentation it's the
00:04:16unexpected it's the unknown it's the surprise it's the curiosity that's what drives relationships with
00:04:22people in the beginning and none of that is being trained when all i need to do is click on
00:04:28something
00:04:28and god forbid i would get lost and discover a whole new landscape that i didn't even know existed
00:04:34a building i had never noticed serendipity spontaneity happenstance those things produce anxiety rather
00:04:43than awe and surprise at this moment right it's like people are not as predictable as these apps are
00:04:51and that is becoming somehow a negative in our eyes we're like it should just be you know black and
00:04:57white but really that used to be what was so divine we are by nature unpredictable flawed imperfect
00:05:06and that you know what happens when you look for perfection and predictability in people is that you
00:05:13stop being able to deal with the messiness of human life the smells the bumps the caretaking
00:05:19the less shiny aspects of intimacy i.e not the six pack right not the six not the six pack
00:05:27what do you
00:05:28do when you're dealing with the messiness of human life and you've become accustomed to always on
00:05:33delivery of your every delight you know perfect pitch that is before the advice that's even before we've come
00:05:43to the advice right can can we also focus on i love how you said like the feeling of these
00:05:48people are
00:05:48going out there and then there's this anxiety but i think something so beautiful about first dates and
00:05:55first experiences or second dates or third dates is sometimes the butterflies we feel when we meet
00:06:01someone and there's the unknown and again the unpredictability that shouldn't scare us it should
00:06:06excite you to some degree or or the knowledge that when you meet someone excitement and insecurity go
00:06:15hand in hand of course you're anxious of course you're wondering of course you're unsure of cons
00:06:22you're trepidatious and you're excited and you're expectant it's all of this in a fantastic soup
00:06:29it's not a problem it is what happens when you have the mystery meeting the longing meeting the desire
00:06:38meeting the uncertainty and meeting possibility right how can someone tell the difference though between
00:06:48anxious butterflies and then when it's actually a warning sign that maybe something is off
00:06:56but butterflies are often mixed with anxiety that's the thing it's you know it's part of the soup
00:07:02you can't have butterflies that are just you know because because the minute you start to be drawn to
00:07:10someone let's explain why butterflies involve anxiety because the minute you begin to be drawn to
00:07:16someone the minute you start to experience any any inklings of attraction or love you also experience
00:07:24a fear of rejection a sense of insecurity a question about how much it is shared and mutual and reciprocal
00:07:33and a fear of loss they go together you can't experience any love without also experiencing the
00:07:41fear of losing the love so i think that the idea that you can have it clean without any anxiety
00:07:48is
00:07:49really taking us down the wrong direction yeah it's like if anything there's something really
00:07:55beautiful about it because it means that there are stakes involved and you could get rejected and
00:08:02that's okay you're putting their yourself out there again going back to your spotify playlist it
00:08:07recommends the exact songs that you also will like because you listen to the song and then you go on
00:08:11your app and it tells you the exact jeans that you should buy because you bought these last year
00:08:14and it's like the unpredictability is actually something that we should lean into yes because
00:08:20there is so much unknown and there's things to explore about yourself and that person but when
00:08:25we are so focused on figuring them out it kind of completely um denies the ability to grow and to
00:08:35grow
00:08:35into the relationship if we're just looking for the answer on day one yes if you want to take out
00:08:40all
00:08:40the wrinkles from the start you're in trouble wrinkles are part of experience and you don't if it's
00:08:50basically taking out the wrinkles from the start is like taking out the experience yeah when do i know
00:08:54that the butterflies are the sign that something is opening up and happening versus a sign that this is
00:09:00something that may be troublesome the only way you know is context and context means that you look for
00:09:08other signs is it all the time is it in writing can you have a conversation in person can you
00:09:16act it's
00:09:17not just you put yourself out there is that of course you come with your vulnerability it's part of
00:09:23you if you're not vulnerable you're probably not interested enough just let's put that out you know
00:09:29vulnerability is a sign that i care that something important is happening here i'm interested and now i'm
00:09:35not sure are you interested too are you interested as much as me did you think about me as much
00:09:40as i
00:09:41thought about you you know i instead of wondering how many words shall i send before i show myself to
00:09:46be too needy and too dependent no you know if you put it out and the other person answers in
00:09:52kind
00:09:53you know that something is happening between us right and if they don't it's okay like you will find
00:09:59someone else let's say someone finally is like all right esther i am going to approach dating now
00:10:04i'm going to be less stressed i'm going to allow myself to just move past that fear of the
00:10:10unpredictable and i'm going to lean in i think we've heard people say you know this person checks
00:10:16all my boxes right in your opinion when is it realistic to have a list of qualities you're looking
00:10:23for in a partner and when does that actually end up instead limiting you every time i'm talked to i
00:10:32think about the list the checklist the boxes this is i always think do you put as much emphasis on
00:10:39who
00:10:39you want to be than who you want to find i mean it's like what is this this is the
00:10:46consumerism i come
00:10:48with my checklist i sit in front of you in a noisy bar and i'm going to ask my questions
00:10:53and see if
00:10:54you check my boxes that is such an awful experience and if you think that in the middle of that
00:10:59you're
00:10:59going to get goosebumps or some butterflies in your belly you're off the chart seriously it's so true
00:11:06it's also like who do you want to be how do you show up who what do you want it's
00:11:11like so
00:11:12product you know i'm by i'm coming to check if you you fit the product wait like i want to
00:11:17get a
00:11:17product review like yes are you a five stars that's way like actually so humbling and i do
00:11:23you do that no i was gonna say i'm married and i even was like oh because i used to
00:11:27do that and i
00:11:28think it's so honest what you're saying is like we all look inward half the time we have expectations
00:11:33for people that we don't even meet ourselves like some of the things i'm i used to expect
00:11:38i mean you want the person to have this this this who do you want to be right what do
00:11:44you bring
00:11:44what do you want to offer what do you want to share who do you want them to think that
00:11:49they are
00:11:49in the presence of rather than this one-sided you know um this is that's you know but the the
00:11:58piece
00:11:58that would help a lot with that alex is that there and i think that that's one of the most
00:12:06off things on the dating scene is that the dating takes place in a completely secluded place away from
00:12:12your life yes dating takes place either virtually maybe at some point you'll finally get to meet
00:12:20somebody and in flesh and and basically at some point if you think something is really happening
00:12:28here you'll have the big reveal and you'll bring this person to your life to your friends to your
00:12:34you know to to to present them instead of bringing the person in your life i'm going to whatever i'm
00:12:43going to hike tomorrow i'm going to look for antiques tomorrow i'm going to bike tomorrow do
00:12:48you want to join are you into this stuff i'm going to the movies i'm going with some friends join
00:12:53us
00:12:53that is lower the stakes lower the stakes esther that is such a brilliant and yet somehow simple
00:13:01concept that i don't know why we're not because i'll tell you what i'm told but that is so
00:13:05vulnerable about your friends may judge you your friends may not like me but your friends are the
00:13:11people that know you the most they will see they will tell you looks good or they will tell you
00:13:17no not not really you know and then you decide what you want anyway but bring the person in your
00:13:23life
00:13:24if it doesn't work my life didn't miss anything otherwise what happens is three times a week i'm
00:13:31out there dating away from the people that i really care about and with whom i actually enjoy myself right
00:13:37and then i come back empty-handed sometimes and i have to report of my bad dates esther we're done
00:13:44with
00:13:45first dates being alone no like i'm i'm not kidding as you're talking i love it because you know it
00:13:51just
00:13:51made me think of something i remember when i was dating i had so much success when i would be
00:13:59at a
00:13:59bar or at an event with my friends and if i met a guy there that's right and he was
00:14:04with my friends
00:14:05and i i ended up like we'd had the best night and then we'd go on a one-on-one
00:14:09date eventually
00:14:10but it weirdly let all of my kind of my guard were like was down and we were grounded in
00:14:16your life
00:14:17and it was so the stakes were so low because i was like i'm with my girls if you blend
00:14:22in and then
00:14:22i would watch him interact with my friends that's right data points so many data points
00:14:27guys i think that esther perel just solved we can just end it right here we are no longer going
00:14:32on
00:14:32first dates that are just so low at a table awkwardly like bring them when you are going
00:14:37out with your girls for drinks or bring them on the hike that you and your friends are going on
00:14:40and be like my friends and i are doing this want to meet up with us how i bring some
00:14:44of your
00:14:44friends that's right i was going to go do this you can even do it alone i was going to
00:14:48go do this
00:14:49would you like to join me meet around an activity that is part of your life where you have a
00:14:54certain
00:14:55confidence already and you can share something you bring you know and then you will see you mean you
00:15:01know you'll come out of the movies the theater the whatever the show and you say oh i have nothing
00:15:07left to say and then you say it was nice and then you still enjoy the show or you'll actually
00:15:11say
00:15:12do you want to continue talking shall we go have a drink shall we go have a bite and it's
00:15:16it's in
00:15:17context and all those questions about when do you know will become very very different if you have a
00:15:25context because this context gives you a felt sense and a felt sense is intuitive and it's so much
00:15:33more important and accurate to your real life rather than your checklist of being like okay i remember i
00:15:38wanted to see if he does this and you're alone on your date and you're trying to hit your
00:15:41checklist like that is where do you live where did you go to school where did you grow up what
00:15:44do
00:15:44you do like are you applying to be my assistant or it's a job interview okay it's a job interview
00:15:50it's not it's not the beginning of a of a story i mean you know relationships have stories a first
00:15:56date is the first page of a story and it will either be a short story or a novel it's
00:16:02interesting
00:16:03because let's say and i know everyone is obviously different and every circumstance is unique but let's
00:16:10say esther someone is like okay i am in the dating world i'm taking all of your notes so far
00:16:16but could you help me in what traits are actually important to care about in a future partner like
00:16:25what should someone really be actually focusing on if they're looking for a long-term person in their
00:16:31life i wish i could give you a blanket answer but it really depends on you you know relationships
00:16:39thrive in complementarity i am a person who is very solid says one i i structure my life i'm reliable
00:16:49but sometimes i wish i was a little bit more flowy i wish i was more spontaneous i wish i
00:16:55didn't overthink
00:16:56things and i welcome someone in my life that actually is more fluid is more spontaneous is is
00:17:03less you know rigid like that and vice versa that's a complementarity that's very common
00:17:10if i can give you basic sets of human traits yes find someone who is decent number one number one
00:17:19decency
00:17:20find someone who is kind who enjoys giving who likes to think about others and isn't just constantly
00:17:27making sure that they have the bigger piece on their plate find someone who for some of us it's for
00:17:34someone who can rejoice who really can wake up in a good mood because that's something that doesn't
00:17:41always happen to me find someone who if it matters to you has a sense of family find someone who
00:17:47has a
00:17:47sense of religion if it matters to you find someone who loves to travel if it matters to you
00:17:53find someone who can tolerate difference but ask yourself also can you tolerate difference
00:17:59right it's like look inward look inward don't just you know expect because even that question can become
00:18:07a list too i agree with you it's almost like you can't tell people exactly what to look for because
00:18:11i agree it needs to complement you is there anything quality wise that you actually think we should
00:18:17start to devalue though as a society that people are looking too much for and that's not what we
00:18:23should be focused on yeah i think that so much of our pressures at this point are about focusing on
00:18:32the self and on the optimization of the self and on the self hacking and on the self fulfillment and
00:18:39the self-worth and the self-awareness and the self self self and and then even when you ask what
00:18:46should i look for in a partner it's what can this partner bring to me rather than what are each
00:18:52other's needs that we can cultivate together it's very different to say a we versus a you who is going
00:19:00to help me become more of myself and make me become the best version of myself you know you live
00:19:07in a big
00:19:08world there's a lot of things to think about besides just me call her daddy is brought to you by
00:19:13airbnb
00:19:13i feel like all anyone in la is talking about right now is coachella and stagecoach and it's
00:19:20making me reminisce on last year when lauren kristen and i went to stagecoach together we booked a great
00:19:26spot on airbnb that was right next to the festival grounds and it was seriously such a game changer for
00:19:31the weekend i don't know if you're aware daddy gang but it is like a hundred degrees all weekend
00:19:36during these festivals so we were out at the pool literally all day and when it was time to get
00:19:42ready
00:19:42everyone had their own bathroom with great lighting which is absolutely crucial for a girls
00:19:46trip and the house itself was also super cute for photo ops there were like cactuses all over the
00:19:51backyard the mountains in the distance so we just took all of our content before we got to the festival
00:19:57grounds and being that close to the festival was so key at night when the wind picked up and it
00:20:02was
00:20:02literally freezing we would just run back be in our cozy pajamas in a few minutes and then just turn
00:20:07on
00:20:07the fire pit for a little debrief because the lineup can be amazing but coming home to a place
00:20:12that's cozy after a long day is really what makes the whole weekend so special now that it's spring
00:20:18it's time to get the group chat together and start planning a trip and one of the easiest ways to
00:20:23set
00:20:23yourself up for a good time is booking your stay on airbnb get the space amenities and location you need
00:20:28to make your stay fun seamless and comfortable whether you need a place for the friend group or
00:20:35somewhere calm and relaxing for a solo getaway you'll find all kinds of options to help make
00:20:40the perfect trip on airbnb call her daddy is brought to you by t-mobile okay daddy gang i am
00:20:48starting
00:20:49to think a night in may actually be the new nightlife uh where am i in my life right now
00:20:57okay i have been
00:20:58working so much lately that all i want to do at the end of a long day is hang out
00:21:02on my couch there is
00:21:04just nothing better than getting into comfy clothes pulling out some of my favorite snacks
00:21:10curling up with henry and bruce and matt you can join too matt and doing absolutely nothing and on
00:21:17those nights in t-mobile has me covered with value that keeps on stacking up the more i use it
00:21:23like
00:21:24streaming benefits and snack perks that truly deliver the math is mathing with so many perks
00:21:30benefits t-mobile is basically making staying in a lifestyle so you know what i love you even more
00:21:37now t-mobile okay my go-to recently has been popping on a reality tv show ordering a whole pizza
00:21:44and
00:21:44hitting next episode all night long with the side of ranch okay and if you have t-mobile like i
00:21:51do you
00:21:52won't believe how good staying in can be check it out at t-mobile.com slash magenta status disclaimer
00:21:58streaming benefits included while you maintain a qualifying line in good standing let's talk about
00:22:08friction yes because i know that you are passionate about needing to invite a little bit of friction
00:22:15into our dating lives what is the benefit of doing that and can you explain what that even means what
00:22:20even means when i said to you before that our technologies our predictive technologies are trying
00:22:27to remove all the inconveniences what they're trying to do is present you with a very polished
00:22:34life where there is no friction no obstacles nothing that you have to work through which traditionally
00:22:43has always been seen as that which gives you a sense of resilience that's which gives you experience
00:22:49that which is necessary for child development it's true for little kids as well they need friction
00:22:54they need to resolve problems they need to figure it out they need to make mistakes and correct it
00:23:01so do we so that's friction besides that i'm a sex therapist as well and we have a there's a
00:23:09beautiful
00:23:10formula of jack moore in a major sexologist who that says attraction plus obstacle equals excitement or
00:23:18desire obstacle is friction it makes me want more when i don't have and i have to reach out and
00:23:26i have
00:23:27to seduce and i have to be imaginative rather than it's right in my lap well and i was going
00:23:34to say i
00:23:34think it's important too to clarify like what is the difference between good friction and bad friction
00:23:39because i don't want any girls going like oh wow we need to fight we need to fight to feel
00:23:44the thrill
00:23:44no no no no no no i'm not talking about toxicity i'm talking about friction talking about this that
00:23:52creates heat it's really that it's the ability to tolerate difference it's the idea that other people
00:23:58will have very different versions of what just happened and they're sitting right side by side with
00:24:03you it's tolerance for conflict it's rupture and repair friction is all the paradoxes or the
00:24:10contradictions that we feel in relationships attraction and disgust care and aggression
00:24:18rupture and repair trust and betrayal these polarities are intrinsic they are part and parcel
00:24:27of every relationship they come and go they move you know the moments when you are deeply trusting
00:24:33and moments where you are suspicious there are moments where you think i can't take another minute
00:24:37of this and then the next minute you think i can't take another day without it it makes me think
00:24:44a
00:24:44little bit and i feel like we all have those people in our life where you kind of hear that
00:24:49friend be
00:24:49like oh my partner and i never fight we never even get in little arguments like what is your take
00:24:57on
00:24:57that trouble on the horizon you're fucked no because you know conflict avoidance or only doing that which
00:25:08we both like we only see the movies the two of us like we only go to the bands the
00:25:12two of us like
00:25:13we create sameness at all costs you know at some point it starts to feel like in order not to
00:25:22lose you
00:25:23i ended up losing major chunks of me every relationship and you asked me before you know
00:25:30what are the things were to look for and i will answer it a little differently i think that one
00:25:37of
00:25:37the most important tensions for all relationships every dating story will have this is how do i connect to
00:25:43you without losing me and how do i stay connected to me without losing you in every relationship you
00:25:53will find that there is one person that is often more in touch with the fear of losing the other
00:25:59and one person more in touch with the fear of losing themselves one person more in touch with the fear
00:26:05of
00:26:05abandonment and one person more in touch with the fear of suffocation and they often meet
00:26:12You can give me any list you want.
00:26:14This is not what you look at when you are a couple of therapists.
00:26:18What drew you together has very little to do with we like the same band and we like
00:26:23hiking the same mountains and we both like skiing and outdoors and none of it.
00:26:27Or we are foodies.
00:26:28That is not what is really being played out in terms of the relationship dynamic.
00:26:33So when you never fight, you are trying to basically smooth out the wrinkles,
00:26:40the differences, the tensions, the autonomy.
00:26:45Because this is how you negotiate separateness and togetherness.
00:26:51This is probably the most important task of any relationship.
00:26:54What should you be trying?
00:26:56What am I looking for?
00:26:57You're looking for someone with whom you can, and depends if you are capable too,
00:27:03to negotiate what is together and what is autonomous.
00:27:07Where are we separate?
00:27:09Your friends, your activities, your interests, your careers, your family, and what is ours?
00:27:16What is the we and what is the me?
00:27:19That's what happens in relationships.
00:27:21You can have the most common tastes with your partner.
00:27:25If these things don't work, that's where you will have trouble.
00:27:29You know, it's interesting because not only do I follow you, I'm already in my head being like,
00:27:35that needs to be clipped.
00:27:37And every human being needs to watch that clip because what the fuck?
00:27:42No, no, no.
00:27:43Like, it's so real when you're talking about how in relationships, like one is more afraid of being
00:27:50abandoned and one is more afraid of losing the sense of self.
00:27:53Like, if everyone just pauses you, I know who I am in the relationship with my husband in that dynamic.
00:27:59And like, I'm sure everyone could.
00:28:00Are you the same with him as you were with others?
00:28:02Because it's not static.
00:28:04No.
00:28:04Yeah.
00:28:04It changes from relationship to relationship.
00:28:07It's not like I'm always in that position because my attachment style is always the same.
00:28:11It changes.
00:28:12It changes.
00:28:12You need to go through some friction because you need to see how you two argue.
00:28:19And I'm not saying arguing is healthy, but like at some point, human beings cannot just go through
00:28:23life and just have no issues.
00:28:25That's just not how life goes.
00:28:26So it's like the beginning of relationships.
00:28:28It is sometimes important to see if you are almost compatible in the way that you handle conflict.
00:28:35And I think a lot of people can be like, oh, we're getting married.
00:28:38We haven't had one issue.
00:28:39Do you think it's concerning if people have never had one problem and already like, we're
00:28:44getting married.
00:28:45We've never fought a day in our life.
00:28:46Oh, it's just a matter of time.
00:28:49At some point, they will.
00:28:51They will.
00:28:52But here's the thing.
00:28:54The research is very clear on this, Alex.
00:28:56It's really not so much the conflict itself as the repair.
00:29:01There are couples that are way more volatile.
00:29:04They bicker more.
00:29:05They argue more.
00:29:06It's faster.
00:29:07It escalates.
00:29:07It's really, can they make up?
00:29:10And how do they make up?
00:29:11And do they make up just by kind of smoothing it over?
00:29:14Or they make up and they actually are able to acknowledge what they contributed to the
00:29:19argument?
00:29:21And the repair is more important than the actual conflict.
00:29:26And when you get to repair, how important is compatibility then in communication styles?
00:29:34What matters the most is not compatibility in communication styles, but accountability.
00:29:39It's the ability to say, I was threatened and I just lashed out on you.
00:29:45I just said things that I wish I didn't say, but when I'm scared or when I fight, I sometimes
00:29:49don't know where to stop.
00:29:51I take full responsibility for this.
00:29:53I realized that when I said that, I was not paying attention to what you had said before,
00:29:58to your needs, to what you had asked from me, to how I let you down.
00:30:01It's the ability to take responsibility without shame.
00:30:05And do you suggest, or again, does it not matter, should repair happen in the moment or can you
00:30:13wait?
00:30:14Great question.
00:30:15So some people can do it in the moment.
00:30:18Other people need 20 minutes, two hours or two days.
00:30:20So if you are with someone who needs two days, don't start talking in the moment.
00:30:25They're totally dysregulated.
00:30:27They can't listen.
00:30:28They're not yet there.
00:30:29Wait.
00:30:30But this is what happens is that you have one person who needs to make sure that we don't
00:30:34go to bed upset, upset, and the other one who just doesn't not, don't give me one more
00:30:40word or I'm going to explode.
00:30:42Yeah.
00:30:42So this is where one needs to learn to engage sooner and one needs to learn to wait longer.
00:30:49Yeah.
00:30:50That's something that I've always found interesting in the dance of relationships.
00:30:53That's friction, by the way.
00:30:54And also there has to be a level of respect, right?
00:30:57Because I remember my husband and I in the beginning days, he would want to handle it
00:31:03immediately and I would be like, I need a second.
00:31:06That's right.
00:31:06And then we would both be like, wait.
00:31:09And then we almost need to find our common ground of like, okay, I can't go into a hole
00:31:13for three days and ignore you.
00:31:14So we need to find our middle ground of where we both can respect each other that you need
00:31:19some reprieve right now.
00:31:20You can't just be waiting for three days.
00:31:22And also I can't have this conversation in 20 minutes.
00:31:26So where can you meet in the middle?
00:31:27Again, that just takes accountability, right?
00:31:29It's accountability and it's acknowledgement of the differences.
00:31:32I mean, it's, you're needing the three days is not because of me.
00:31:38You need three days is because of who you are and how you've learned to calm down and
00:31:42whatever history you come with.
00:31:44And the most important piece about it is not to personalize it.
00:31:48Then I can say, look, after a day, because I'm not sure that you like the three days.
00:31:53Maybe you actually would love it if it was just half a day, but you don't know how to
00:31:58do it because, you know, you wait, you wait, you wait till all the nervous system kind of
00:32:03sets back in.
00:32:04You've gone three times to do sports, whatever you needed to do to kind of, you know, get
00:32:08yourself back to ground zero.
00:32:10I could help you actually.
00:32:12That's the thing.
00:32:13I may actually be able to tell you, hey, you're not going to lose face and you don't have to
00:32:19feel like you're giving in and giving up.
00:32:21If you talk to me two days before and I'm not going to attack you, can we sit and just
00:32:27look at what happened here?
00:32:29So I'll help you with the three days.
00:32:31It's not just the middle because it's nice to meet in the middle ground.
00:32:34It's that I have something you don't have.
00:32:38Right.
00:32:39Because I'm not arguing or fighting with myself.
00:32:42Like there's another person that has the keys to the answers of why they acted that way
00:32:47and why I acted that way.
00:32:48Where did you learn to need three days?
00:32:50I think that something that would be very useful for all your listeners is the typical
00:32:57thing is to say what you fight about rather than what is it that you're fighting for.
00:33:04And when you look at what people fight for, Howard Markman summarized it really beautifully.
00:33:13He's a researcher on couples and he said people fight about a few major things.
00:33:16The first one is people fight for power and control.
00:33:20Whose decisions matter most, whose needs get priority, who gets to decide.
00:33:28Much of our fighting is actually about power and control.
00:33:32It doesn't matter if it looks like it's about money or the kids or the parents or my activities
00:33:37or your friends.
00:33:39The second thing we fight about is care and closeness.
00:33:43Can I trust you?
00:33:44Do you have my back?
00:33:46Will you look out for me?
00:33:48Can I rely on you?
00:33:51And we don't say I fight about trust.
00:33:54We fight about you didn't call me and you didn't tell me we're going to be late and you didn't
00:33:57tell me that you had visited these people and you didn't share that with me and I didn't
00:34:02know you tell Chad GPT this and that, you know, care and closeness.
00:34:06And the third one is respect and recognition.
00:34:09Do you value me?
00:34:11When you didn't invite me to join you, we can talk about how I wasn't included, but the
00:34:16issue is I didn't feel valued.
00:34:18I don't feel like I'm important in your life.
00:34:20So power and control, care and closeness and respect and recognition, power, trust and value.
00:34:29That's what most fights are about.
00:34:33Shit.
00:34:33If you get away from all the what, you will actually understand why people get so upset.
00:34:41It's so, I'm so happy you're here.
00:34:45I'm going to say that a million times today.
00:34:47It's so real because I can already see it.
00:34:50I'm sure everyone else can that's watching.
00:34:52It's like you're you're venting to your friend and it's like I'm waiting for him to text me
00:34:57and I'm it's driving me insane because then I found out he ended up going to the dinner
00:35:01and he never even invited me and I just don't like I don't even understand.
00:35:05I'm just so over it.
00:35:06I'm done and I like actually fucking hate him and I'm over it.
00:35:08And what you're saying is like, OK, slow down for a second because this is someone you
00:35:13love and get underneath.
00:35:14Like, what is it that's actually upsetting you?
00:35:17And that probably would fall, I would assume, into the category, the last one.
00:35:20Right.
00:35:21Totally.
00:35:21Where you're just like you're looking for the recognition and you want to be respected
00:35:25and seen and a part of their life.
00:35:27You want to feel like you mean something to someone.
00:35:30And when you went alone and you didn't tell me or you didn't invite me, didn't include
00:35:35me, I'm like, you know, mashed potatoes.
00:35:38I don't feel valued.
00:35:39That's what hurts.
00:35:40I don't feel valued.
00:35:42And I think what you had said earlier, even in the dating, that really applies to this
00:35:46is what's so hard in conflict resolution between couples is so much, almost a lot of time in
00:35:55no matter what argument it is also starts in power in terms of like, I don't want to admit
00:36:01I was wrong here or whatever, but it also is power in terms of like, it requires you
00:36:07to actually get vulnerable.
00:36:08You know what is the most beautiful power?
00:36:11One of them.
00:36:12There's so many.
00:36:12But I have often said to people in sessions, I'm trying to think about an episode on the
00:36:20podcast that people could go listen to.
00:36:22That kind of instantly speaks to that, where I say the person who apologizes first is often
00:36:29the person who has the most power.
00:36:31I love that.
00:36:33Do you understand?
00:36:33Roll that again, because we feel the weakest, right?
00:36:36Yes, exactly.
00:36:37And especially those for whom this feels weakening to admit, to acknowledge, to take responsibility,
00:36:43to say I made a mistake or I was wrong or I went too far.
00:36:46Why do they have the most power?
00:36:48Because if I say that to you, it is more likely that you will say, A, thank you.
00:36:56B, I appreciate this.
00:36:58Three, you feel seen.
00:37:01Four, you realize that we're both in this together.
00:37:07And five, it's not so bad.
00:37:10I can get over it.
00:37:12Because my admission is all you needed.
00:37:16I don't need to, you know, stretch myself on the floor.
00:37:20It's not, I shame myself and make my, I'm just simply saying to you, it's this, it's
00:37:27that gesture with my head.
00:37:28I know, I see, I own it.
00:37:31I take my responsibility.
00:37:33And then usually what do you do?
00:37:35You say, well, I wasn't at my best either.
00:37:37Right.
00:37:38Then they'll meet you there.
00:37:39You'll meet me there.
00:37:40You'll meet me there.
00:37:41That's power.
00:37:42That's power too, rather than power over.
00:37:45I was going to say, because there's such a difference between, I was going to be like,
00:37:49okay, power sounds negative, right?
00:37:52Power sounds like you have something over people.
00:37:55Because I remember growing up, my mom would always say like, the person who cares the least
00:38:00in the relationship.
00:38:01Has all the power.
00:38:03And it pisses people off when you say that.
00:38:05They're like, that's not true.
00:38:06And it's like, no, no.
00:38:06The person who cares the least has all of the power.
00:38:09They don't give a fuck.
00:38:10So you're constantly trying to get their attention and get them to care and get them to, and
00:38:14you're the one that's aggressive towards.
00:38:16And the other person can just sit back and be like, I'm fucking chilling.
00:38:20That's toxic.
00:38:21Why are you making such a big deal?
00:38:23You know, what's, what's the big deal?
00:38:26Can't you just, you know.
00:38:28And that's toxic power.
00:38:30That's using power in a way that's not fair in the relationship.
00:38:34Why is it toxic?
00:38:35Because you're.
00:38:37What is the tone when you say what you just said?
00:38:40I think it's, it's a imbalanced relationship in a way that feels manipulative.
00:38:46Right.
00:38:46Like they're using that.
00:38:47There's a word for it.
00:38:48What?
00:38:48Contempt.
00:38:50What, what stands out when you say, what's the big deal?
00:38:54Why you need to, to always overblow things.
00:38:56You always have to make such a big drama, you know, just, you know, just chill, just
00:39:03relax, just keep it in perspective.
00:39:05Just, just, just meaning what's wrong with you and what's wrong with you says I have
00:39:11contempt, which is really the number one killer.
00:39:16Actually.
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00:41:59When is it betrayal to go and share too much with friends or family about issues you're
00:42:04having in your relationship?
00:42:06Every biography is a betrayal of someone else.
00:42:11You cannot tell your story without telling things about people who are in your story who
00:42:18didn't ask to be spoken about.
00:42:21That's by definition.
00:42:22I mean, this is the era where more people have written biographies than ever before.
00:42:27Every person has a biography to write.
00:42:29So a biography tells my story in the context of many relationships with others who didn't
00:42:35ask for the story to be told.
00:42:37Every biography is a betrayal, a small one, but it's a betrayal.
00:42:41Okay, wait, but Esther, it helps you to some degree process when you get to...
00:42:48I didn't mean to say, therefore, you shouldn't tell.
00:42:50You're like, oh girl, get after it.
00:42:53But you need to know that that's what we do.
00:42:56And I've, look, I've had more than one, in this instance, men in hetero relationships tell
00:43:04me, you know, if I knew, it's about how much my partner, my girlfriend, my wife, whatever,
00:43:16my girlfriend tells her girlfriends about us, betrayal would be redefined.
00:43:25I think that there is often a sense among women, girls, that it's not a betrayal because
00:43:32I'm talking to my best friend.
00:43:35Whereas for many people, many men who are much less likely to share that much about their
00:43:41girlfriends to their male friends, if they were to discover all what she is able to put
00:43:47out there, betrayal would be redefined.
00:43:51And I think that there is something to think about that.
00:43:54Now, when you talk to your girlfriends, the question is this, are you ever actually saying
00:43:59what you have done as well, or are you only talking about what he or she or they did to
00:44:06you?
00:44:07And that's where the girlfriends can come in and say, look, everything starts with the
00:44:13name of the other person.
00:44:14Alex did this, and Alex said that, and Alex didn't.
00:44:18And you know what Alex, and what Alex again, Alex, Alex, Alex.
00:44:23At some point you want to say, and where is Esther in the story?
00:44:27And if Esther is not mentioned, and what did you do?
00:44:30You know, when I see a couple and I see one person telling me a story, and then when the
00:44:35other one arrives, it's like everything this one left out is what this one starts with.
00:44:40But how though then, Esther, do you protect the privacy of your relationship without fully
00:44:45isolating yourself from your friends and your family?
00:44:49It's in the tone.
00:44:51It's in the way you, of course you come to your friends.
00:44:54I'm struggling with something.
00:44:56I don't know what to do.
00:44:57And good friends sometimes give advice and sometimes really make space and listen and
00:45:04just say, you will figure this out.
00:45:05I'm here for you if you need to.
00:45:08Sometimes I need to tell you, this is what I think is happening now.
00:45:11You need to talk to her.
00:45:13You need to tell her what's happening with you.
00:45:15You know, you're dealing with loss.
00:45:17You're dealing with illness.
00:45:18You're dealing with children.
00:45:20You're dealing with no work.
00:45:21You're dealing with loss of your best friends, whatever.
00:45:24You need to be able to talk.
00:45:27But talking is not the same as dishing.
00:45:31Right.
00:45:31And also starting more with I statements rather than the constant.
00:45:35And then he did this and then he did this.
00:45:37Blame, blame, blame, blame.
00:45:38And I'm the victim of the other person's doing.
00:45:42That is not always the case.
00:45:44Interesting.
00:45:45I do find that like emotional depth and intelligence.
00:45:49I think sometimes a lot of women write in just feeling like I really like him in the beginning.
00:45:53It's been fun.
00:45:54But like.
00:45:56I'm starting to wonder if he's emotionally intelligent enough and can go deep with me enough.
00:46:02And I'm starting to go to my friends and family when I'm going through hard things or when I'm looking
00:46:06to have an intellectual conversation because he can't meet me there.
00:46:09Like how do you gauge if your partner is emotionally intelligent enough to match where you're also at in your
00:46:17life?
00:46:17Because that's a very elusive, hard.
00:46:20By going outside of your own definition.
00:46:23What you think is emotionally intelligent may not be his vocabulary.
00:46:29And maybe the day something happens to you, he will show up and he'll deliver and he'll be there for
00:46:36you without many words.
00:46:38We have many vocabularies.
00:46:40Words is one.
00:46:42And we are girls are often more trained to be in verbal vocabulary.
00:46:47We talk, you know, partly because we've been taught to distrust our bodies.
00:46:51So we became masters of talk intimacy.
00:46:55But intimacy can be experienced in a lot of different ways that don't involve the only words.
00:47:00And by the way, we talk with our bodies for 18 months before we utter the first word.
00:47:05So our mother tongue is often physical.
00:47:09Emotional intelligence and intellectual compatibility is different things.
00:47:13You know, if you if it's very, very important for you to be with someone with whom you can have
00:47:20these meaty conversations, know that up front, know that up front.
00:47:25If you say discussing what how I should handle my mother is not something that I do talk about with
00:47:31my boyfriend because I don't think that that his advice, then go to your girlfriends.
00:47:36Do not think that one person can give you what an entire village should provide.
00:47:42A boyfriend is wanting a boyfriend, a girlfriend.
00:47:46If you're a girl is wanting a girlfriend.
00:47:48We need a community.
00:47:50You need to diversify better relationships.
00:47:54Stronger relationships are often diversified.
00:47:56You know exactly when I have this kind of issue or this kind of interest.
00:48:00That's not where I go.
00:48:02I have my friends with whom I share those things and I have my friends with whom I talk about
00:48:07those things.
00:48:07That is not what I do with my partner.
00:48:09And that is OK.
00:48:11It's OK.
00:48:12OK.
00:48:14Let's talk about cheating.
00:48:16We're back, girl.
00:48:18Let's get into cheating.
00:48:20Everyone's oh so favorite topic.
00:48:22That's right.
00:48:23When there is infidelity, I think as of recent and because this didn't obviously used to be it like, you
00:48:31know, in previous generations.
00:48:32But there is an expectation now, it feels that the relationship has to end if there is infidelity, especially when
00:48:40the woman is cheated on.
00:48:41There's a lot of shame from other women being like, you have to leave.
00:48:44You don't respect yourself.
00:48:45Get the fuck out of that relationship.
00:48:47Why do you think there is so much shame on a person staying and should there be that level of
00:48:53shame?
00:48:54I love the question because it is probably one of the most important changes that took place between your grandmother
00:49:02and you.
00:49:04You know, when marriage was a one stop enterprise from which you could not get out, then you had no
00:49:12choice but staying.
00:49:16Everything changed with divorce, with the democratization of divorce, with no-fold divorce, and with women being in the workforce
00:49:25so that they can actually take care of themselves and not worry about the destitution and the loss of their
00:49:31children.
00:49:32And now that you can leave, you should go.
00:49:37If you stay, it becomes a sign of no self-esteem, no self-confidence, weakness, the opposite of what it
00:49:46used to be.
00:49:47The fact that you actually can forgive or can rebuild or that not every infidelity is actually a sign that
00:49:54your relationship is over and that staying and reconnecting and rebuilding the trust is actually a sign of strength rather
00:50:02than weakness has really become a challenge.
00:50:05And the younger you go, the more this takes place.
00:50:08This is the belief system of the moment.
00:50:11And why do you think, although I feel like this is a very obvious question, I just have to ask
00:50:16you because I want your opinion, like, why do you think women disproportionately bear the shame of staying?
00:50:24Because there are men who stay after getting cheated on, you know?
00:50:26Yes, that is very cultural.
00:50:29When I work in Mexico or anywhere south of the border, that is not the case.
00:50:35Because you only know it more from the women.
00:50:39You know, when a woman stays and is quiet about it, you may be sure that the silence of the
00:50:46man is even bigger.
00:50:48What kind of a man are you that you would stay?
00:50:52With a woman, nobody says what kind of a woman are you.
00:50:54We just say what kind of a low self-esteem woman are you.
00:50:57But we don't challenge the whole constitutional element called woman.
00:51:02We just think about her strength of character.
00:51:05With him, we say what kind of a man are you that you let your wife, you couldn't control your
00:51:12wife, do those things.
00:51:14And you still choose to be with her.
00:51:16You're not a real man.
00:51:19So it's misleading to think that this is the pressure is more on women.
00:51:24The pressure is more overtly on women.
00:51:27But that pressure is usually even bigger on men.
00:51:31Right, because it's emasculating.
00:51:33Yes.
00:51:33What conversations do you think need to take place in order to make the relationship work after someone has cheated?
00:51:41Because I know you meet with couples and you do help repair relationships.
00:51:45So I spent 10 years studying infidelity, wrote state of affairs about it, and began to really, I have a
00:51:56list of 150 questions, really, that it wasn't just one.
00:52:00But I think the most important set of questions come from this distinction.
00:52:07Try not to go for the facts.
00:52:10Where were you?
00:52:12When did you do it?
00:52:13How often did you do it?
00:52:15Did you do it standing?
00:52:16Did you do it lying?
00:52:17Did you keep your clothes on?
00:52:18Did you bring them to the house?
00:52:20Did you do it?
00:52:21Go for the meaning.
00:52:22What did it mean for you?
00:52:24Why do you think you did this?
00:52:26And what were you thinking about us as this was happening?
00:52:30And do you want me to forgive you?
00:52:32Or do you think I actually would be more respected by you if I didn't forgive you?
00:52:36Do you think you are forgivable?
00:52:38Would you have accepted something like that from me?
00:52:41Go for the investigative questions rather than the detective questions.
00:52:47Right.
00:52:47For the meaning, not the facts.
00:52:48For the meaning, not the fact.
00:52:49Because it's in the meaning that you will also understand, did it have anything to do with you or with
00:52:55your relationship?
00:52:56Or did it have absolutely nothing to do with you, which is hard to believe, but is actually a lot
00:53:01of the time the case.
00:53:03Really?
00:53:03It has nothing to do with you.
00:53:05It has to do with the fact that I felt lousy about myself, that I felt lonely, that I didn't
00:53:09really feel like you were giving me enough attention.
00:53:11Or that I thought, you know, suddenly somebody is laughing at my jokes again and, you know.
00:53:17But is that then inadvertently kind of about the other person?
00:53:20Like, what drives someone to cheat?
00:53:23Let me tell you in one sentence that, that to me became a real, sometimes people go to look for
00:53:34the gaze of another, not because they're looking for another partner, but they're looking for another self.
00:53:42Not that they want to leave the person that they are with, but they want to leave the person that
00:53:47they have themselves become.
00:53:50Oh, shit.
00:53:51What they're dealing with is their depression, is their loss, is their grief, is their aging, is their whatever issues
00:54:02inside, is the way that they lost themselves into, you know, they forgot who they are and all of that.
00:54:08And that's what they are reclaiming.
00:54:10And their sense is that they can't reclaim it in the same place where they lost it.
00:54:14But it's not the other person's fault that they lost any of it.
00:54:17It's also so hard, though, because you're like, yes, it may not be about you, but it impacts you, obviously,
00:54:25so deeply.
00:54:26And it's almost, I wonder for people, have you found when you're in these moments and you're talking to these
00:54:30couples, is it more infuriating for the partner that got cheated on to be like, I didn't do, like, this
00:54:37is all about you.
00:54:38I couldn't, like, it wasn't even because, like, I wasn't, like, having enough sex with you.
00:54:41That's right.
00:54:41Like, there's nothing I can change.
00:54:43You just were going to do this no matter what.
00:54:44Yes, you were into women.
00:54:45You were into this.
00:54:46Like, which is easier for someone to...
00:54:48Depends who.
00:54:48So I think the most important piece that you're saying here is that every thinking about infidelity in a relationship
00:54:54is a dual perspective.
00:54:57What it meant to you and what it did to me.
00:55:02So the first thing in phase one is I need you to know what it did to me.
00:55:07You don't go instantly for what it meant.
00:55:09What it did to me, how you hurt me, how you deceived me, how you lied to me, how you
00:55:14betrayed me, how you were duplicitous, all of that.
00:55:16And do you feel bad about that?
00:55:18Do you experience guilt or remorse?
00:55:21If I don't get that, there's nowhere to start.
00:55:24Even if you had good reasons for doing what you did, you need to be able to know what it
00:55:29meant, what you did to me with it, especially if it has nothing to do with me, even more so.
00:55:35Do you find when you've done couples therapy that the person who cheated is usually capable of meeting the partner
00:55:41there?
00:55:42If they don't, then you have a bad, that's a bad sign.
00:55:45If they don't and if they only justify and they, you know, but those are also people who typically will
00:55:52say it's because of you.
00:55:53Oh, you're like, there's patterns here.
00:55:56You know, that kind of goes together.
00:55:57So generally, I give you an out because I'm telling you, even if you had good reasons and you don't
00:56:06feel guilty about what you did, you need to be able to feel guilty for what it did to your
00:56:10partner.
00:56:11Have empathy.
00:56:12Have empathy and take responsibility.
00:56:15It's both.
00:56:15It's always the empathy and the accountability.
00:56:18It's two parts.
00:56:19And then, what are you doing to give value back to your relationship?
00:56:27You now have to prove to your partner because a betrayal is a devaluation of the other person.
00:56:33I didn't think of you.
00:56:34I didn't care about what it would do to you.
00:56:36I put myself first.
00:56:38It's all of that.
00:56:39What are you doing now to redeem the relationship?
00:56:42And that's on you.
00:56:44And that one of the main ways you do it is that instead of waiting for me to ask you
00:56:50another question, did you?
00:56:52Did you come to this restaurant?
00:56:53Did you take her here?
00:56:54Did you go there?
00:56:55You are the one who say, when we pass in front of the restaurant and we drive there and you
00:57:00say, we didn't come here.
00:57:01And you preempt me.
00:57:02Because what you think is that all my questions is because I want to make your life difficult.
00:57:07That's not the case.
00:57:09I question you a hundred times the same question because what you did has just shattered my reality.
00:57:15And I don't trust myself anymore because I thought I knew my reality.
00:57:20And now I think that everything I thought was real was actually possibly not.
00:57:24So I come back to ask you the same thing because I need to kind of reconstitute my reality.
00:57:30That's what I'm doing with you.
00:57:31It's like must be so hard to because I could see the person that cheated wants to move forward.
00:57:36But the other person is like, I need you to know I'm actually if I'm deciding to move forward, I'm
00:57:41not actually trying to hold you against the fire forever of being like, did you come to this restaurant?
00:57:46But I would love if you could meet me there and trying to just fill in the gaps for me
00:57:51so I don't have all these question marks.
00:57:52If you think of it at that moment and you tell me, then I learned to trust you again.
00:57:59That's actually where the trust gets rebuilt because now I'm not thinking that I'm the only one who cares about
00:58:04what happened.
00:58:04I'm the only one who's hurt.
00:58:06I'm the only one who thinks that we've just taken a big hit in our relationship.
00:58:09I know you're in it with me.
00:58:11And that allows me to then think about something else.
00:58:15Even as uncomfortable as the brutal honesty can be from the person who cheated, that is the beginning of repair.
00:58:23Sometimes.
00:58:23But sometimes before you ask a question, and this I'm going to say to all our viewers here, ask yourself,
00:58:31do you want to know the answer to your question?
00:58:35Or do you want your partner to know that you have the question?
00:58:40Give me an example.
00:58:42Did you fall in love with her?
00:58:44Did you think about leaving me?
00:58:47Did you hope I would never find out?
00:58:50Wait, what if we do want to know those questions?
00:58:52I'm like, did he?
00:58:53Well, that's the thing.
00:58:55Do you want to know the answer to your question?
00:58:57Because then you have to deal with the consequences of knowing.
00:59:00I think I would want to know if someone had fallen in love.
00:59:03If my husband cheated on me and I think I would need to know, like, are you in love with
00:59:08her?
00:59:08Because then we have to be done, right?
00:59:10Go be with her.
00:59:11That's you.
00:59:12Right.
00:59:13Some people don't want to know.
00:59:14But another person in very different set of circumstances.
00:59:17I would ask.
00:59:18Yes.
00:59:19I would need that.
00:59:20Fair enough.
00:59:21Because that, for me, would just be like.
00:59:23But you just answered me.
00:59:24I need to know because I'm prepared to deal with the consequences of knowing.
00:59:29I see.
00:59:30And some people would be like, I don't want to know because no matter the answer, I'm willing
00:59:33to work through this.
00:59:34I just did an episode on my podcast, a 25-year affair.
00:59:40He has.
00:59:4025 years?
00:59:41Yeah.
00:59:42So that's not necessarily for our viewers here, but it is maybe your parents.
00:59:46Oh, shit.
00:59:47And she is clear that she doesn't want to leave because she's also very clear that they
00:59:54actually had a very good marriage throughout those 25 years.
00:59:57And that is true, too.
00:59:59And things are not so black and white.
01:00:01And it is not my job to tell this person nor any friend's job to tell this person and talk
01:00:07about the shame.
01:00:08Because 25 years, she doesn't want the family to know because she doesn't want them to pity
01:00:14her for staying with him.
01:00:16And she doesn't want them to be angry at him because then she can't love him if they're
01:00:21all despising him.
01:00:23So she's not carrying the secret about the secret.
01:00:26Right.
01:00:27And the shame.
01:00:29That's so...
01:00:30And we don't have...
01:00:31We can't be so judgmental about that.
01:00:33No, we can't.
01:00:34It's like, I've had people on the show before that have come on and talked about staying
01:00:37after cheating.
01:00:38And the way the internet has just torn these women apart.
01:00:44And it's like, but it's their life.
01:00:46And everyone's like, well, you don't respect yourself.
01:00:48And it's like, but do you know that?
01:00:52Do you really...
01:00:53You don't know that.
01:00:54This person may have done so much work within that relationship to repair it.
01:00:58Like, why are you so triggered?
01:01:01It's her life.
01:01:02Look, everything on where should we begin was to say to people, we don't really know what's
01:01:08happening in the private lives of other couples.
01:01:11At all.
01:01:11And it's very easy these days because you can anonymously state your opinions on every platform
01:01:18you want without any consequence.
01:01:20Is there, Esther, a timeline in terms as a couple therapist that you're like, repair
01:01:31should fall within a little bit of this timeline?
01:01:34If not, like, you can't keep going back and forth of like, you cheated, I need these answers
01:01:39and we're five years down the line.
01:01:41Or can it just be forever?
01:01:44No, no, I think, I think, yeah, you can be forever, but you will be stuck in a marital
01:01:49cell, you know, or a relational cell of any sort.
01:01:53No, I think that sometimes if you can't accept it, if you can't learn to live with it, if you
01:01:59can't find a place for it in your life, then you may need to make a decision.
01:02:05Or if you live with someone and you've done all the repair and all the showing up that
01:02:10was necessary and your partner is still coming back to you every day, every time you're five
01:02:15minutes late, you may need to think about that.
01:02:18What do you want to do?
01:02:19So, no, I don't think people need to remain stuck in misery, you know, and in blame cycles
01:02:26all the time, but at the same time, for some people, they still prefer that, you know, and
01:02:37you make sense of it, you understand why they prefer that, you understand the stories and
01:02:41the childhoods they've had, et cetera.
01:02:43Um, it's, it's very important for us not to become, um, the public square that oozes with,
01:02:54um, with judgment about as if we know when we don't, we don't know if people are also taking
01:03:02care of elderly or sick children or their other reasons.
01:03:07I love that too, just even to close out on that cheating chapter for anyone listening,
01:03:14like we all have those people in our life that whether it's your sister or your friend
01:03:20or whoever that stays, there is understandably a anger within you as someone who loves them
01:03:28because you are protective of them and you, you think I want better for them.
01:03:32But again, we all know the extreme level of intricate detail that goes into why we are
01:03:41who we are that no one will ever understand.
01:03:43Even if you explain so many times, like you're living in your own body with your own trauma
01:03:48and your own history.
01:03:49And so as much as you say you want better for them, if they genuinely are saying to you,
01:03:54this is what they want at some capacity, you have to also relinquish control of trying
01:04:00to dictate other people's lives, because what does it affect you?
01:04:03So there are two parts of the, what they want that I think are often not spoken up.
01:04:11It's one thing to think you are not trustworthy, but it's another thing to doubt your own self-trust,
01:04:19your own self-confidence and the idea that you could have made a bad decision,
01:04:24that you made a bad choice, that the deal, the bargain that you struck with yourself,
01:04:31that you were going to be with somebody who would never do such a thing to you,
01:04:34that you purposefully didn't stay with the person with whom you had much more passion
01:04:38and much more intensity.
01:04:40You chose someone who was safe and stable and you thought that person will never cheat on me.
01:04:46My ex did that.
01:04:47And then this person does it.
01:04:48And then you have to deal with your own reckoning.
01:04:51So that's one.
01:04:51The second one is that sometimes you stay, not because you're weak and because you let
01:04:57the other person roll all over you, but because you're actually silently admitting to yourself
01:05:01that you know that you contributed in some way too.
01:05:05I mean, the loneliness is one of the most important reasons why people see connection elsewhere.
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01:06:28Let's talk about intimacy.
01:06:30What do you do?
01:06:33Because I truly believe this is one of the biggest, most prominent issues in every single
01:06:41relationship, not every single, but a majority is like when you and your partner have different
01:06:47ideas of intimacy, of how much you want it, of how often like...
01:06:55Physical intimacy?
01:06:56Yes, physical intimacy.
01:06:57Touch, affection.
01:06:58Touch, affection, sex.
01:06:59Like what do you do when you're on different pages in a relationship with that?
01:07:05I think that the interesting thing is that people seem to be talking about sex with everybody,
01:07:11but the least is with the person they're actually having sex with.
01:07:17And in the beginning, you don't want to talk about it because you don't want to talk about
01:07:20it.
01:07:21And then you don't want to talk about it because you don't want to jinx it.
01:07:24And then you don't want to talk about it because you didn't talk about it before.
01:07:27And then, I mean, it's just like, you know, and then you only talk about it when there
01:07:31is crisis.
01:07:32For a lot of people in, by the way, connecting it to the previous question, infidelity becomes
01:07:38the moment where people start to talk about a lot of things that they put under the rug
01:07:42for a long time.
01:07:45And finally, you know, the shit hits the fence.
01:07:48So now we start to discuss all our grievances, our resentments, our longings, our disappointments,
01:07:54our unfulfilled needs, et cetera, et cetera.
01:07:56And it's like, had you talked about that?
01:07:58No.
01:07:59Maybe it wouldn't have gotten there.
01:08:00No.
01:08:00And monogamy and all of those issues.
01:08:03It's like, you know, and more so in straight couples, actually.
01:08:07You know, especially around monogamy and questions like that and exclusion and boundaries and
01:08:12all of that.
01:08:13So then there is, what do we talk about?
01:08:17What is candid communication, you know, around physicality?
01:08:22It's even, I touch you.
01:08:24Do you like it?
01:08:26I saw, just so you twitch, you know, do you want me to continue?
01:08:30Shall I stop?
01:08:31Instead of guessing, they seem to like it.
01:08:34They don't seem to like it.
01:08:34I don't know.
01:08:35You know, I do.
01:08:36They don't respond.
01:08:37Is it because of me?
01:08:38Is it because they're tired?
01:08:39Is it because, you know, okay, I won't do it anymore.
01:08:44Ask, check in, talk.
01:08:47Sometimes you may get unpleasant answers.
01:08:50That's okay.
01:08:51So that's the first thing.
01:08:53Then you have discrepancy of desire.
01:08:55You know, what happened there?
01:08:58I think that there is a big difference between sex and eroticism.
01:09:04Between doing the act, for which you may do a lot and feel very little, and doing very
01:09:10little, for which you may feel a lot, which is the erotic that involves your imagination,
01:09:14touch, meaning.
01:09:15But why the experience of it, rather than just the act of it?
01:09:19It's not just, sex is not just something you do.
01:09:21It's a place you go.
01:09:23It's where, a lot of things happen there.
01:09:25So what happens to you?
01:09:27That's a question.
01:09:28Where do you go?
01:09:29Why do you hold back?
01:09:32What ignites you?
01:09:34What blocks you?
01:09:36Is it on your mind?
01:09:37Is it not on your mind?
01:09:38Is there something that has been unpleasant that you've never talked about?
01:09:42Does it hurt and you never say anything?
01:09:46In order to want sex, it needs to be sex that is worth wanting.
01:09:50And many times, women, girls, want it less, not because they're less interested in it,
01:09:56but because it's not the sex that they want.
01:09:58It's not what they're looking forward to.
01:10:01So how much are you able to express that?
01:10:05Sometimes you do it in writing.
01:10:07Sometimes you do it by playing a game.
01:10:09Sometimes there are lots of ways that people learn to become more at ease talking about
01:10:14the very topic that they spend their entire childhood learning not to talk about.
01:10:20I mean, let's be facing that too.
01:10:21You take a subject on which that has constantly been hidden, and suddenly you need to be able
01:10:26to be all eloquent about.
01:10:28So that's not so easy.
01:10:29It's difficult.
01:10:30It's so difficult.
01:10:32And that's such a great point, even to just ease all of our minds.
01:10:36Like, I understand that it is sometimes really hard and awkward to talk about it with your
01:10:42partner.
01:10:42Because sometimes from what I've experienced in the past and what people have written
01:10:46into me is like, it just feels like if I approach this, it's going to come off like I'm not
01:10:53happy.
01:10:54And then it's going to be so awkward the next time we go to have sex because he's just
01:10:57going to be thinking about like, well, you literally just complained that you're like
01:11:01not enjoying it.
01:11:02And it's like, no, the way that you approach the conversation can dictate so much of how
01:11:07it goes.
01:11:08The way you do it, you know, I wrote Mating in Captivity 20 years ago, all about what is
01:11:14desire in relationship?
01:11:16How do we sustain it?
01:11:17Then I did the desire bundle.
01:11:19It's a whole course with these kinds of questions.
01:11:21And one of the things I understood is one of the main shifts that we as women need to do
01:11:27is instead of saying I don't enjoy it, is to say I would enjoy it a lot more if I
01:11:35very
01:11:35much like when you do, and I would love it if you did more.
01:11:39Go with what you ask for.
01:11:42Women have always learned to say what they don't like when it comes to sex.
01:11:46They have not been necessarily trained to actually speak about their wishes, their needs, their
01:11:50preferences, their likes.
01:11:52Go to your partner, male, female them and say, you know, I like when I would love if it
01:11:59would please me a lot if you could do that.
01:12:02That's a way to not have the other person the next time saying, oh, shit, I don't want
01:12:06to approach you because you've just told me that you really don't like, you know, and
01:12:10now I've lost my entire sense of confidence.
01:12:12I thought you liked it.
01:12:14And because you faked it.
01:12:16That I love that so much, too, because I think it's very relatable for anyone listening
01:12:20where you're in a situation where you become so comfortable with your partner and every
01:12:26aspect of life.
01:12:27And then this thing over here, that's one of the most important aspects of your relationship
01:12:31you never talk about.
01:12:32So then it does get awkward because the person that's holding on to not being as fulfilled
01:12:37by it.
01:12:39Understandably, the other person's like, how long have you been feeling this way?
01:12:42Like, holy shit.
01:12:43What did I not know?
01:12:44How did I miss it?
01:12:46You know, you that's a form of lying, too.
01:12:49Sometimes, by the way, that is a betrayal, too.
01:12:52For six years, you haven't said a thing to me.
01:12:55Because what is what are they supposed to do?
01:12:57You know, you've been fantasizing about someone else or you've been not liking it and pretending
01:13:04to me that sometimes hurts no less than you've been because you've been elsewhere, whether
01:13:10you've been elsewhere alone or you've been elsewhere.
01:13:14I feel like you have just, you know, I thought I was with you in this and I've just discovered
01:13:21that I was by myself.
01:13:23Let's talk about codependency.
01:13:25Yeah.
01:13:26When you're in a serious relationship, understandably, your lives become fused together, right?
01:13:33You do so many things together.
01:13:36You're living together most of the time.
01:13:38What are some signs, though, that you have gotten yourself into a situation that is fully
01:13:44codependent?
01:13:46When you are cold, I'm not instantly cold.
01:13:51You've got your own body temperature and I can say, oh, that's interesting.
01:13:56I can't say, how can you be cold?
01:13:58I'm not cold.
01:13:59Why should you be cold?
01:14:01I'm the thermometer.
01:14:03When you're hungry, I'm not immediately hungry.
01:14:06When you're tired or when I'm tired, you're not instantly tired.
01:14:10We have a different system, but somehow when you're upset or when you're sad or when you're
01:14:18anxious or worried, that instantly makes me anxious because your feelings are my feelings.
01:14:26If you're unhappy, that makes me unhappy.
01:14:28Or I think that you're unhappy because it's me.
01:14:30What did I do?
01:14:31What did I do?
01:14:32What's wrong?
01:14:35So, I use the temperature and the hunger and the tiredness because people immediately
01:14:41understand it.
01:14:42When it's physical, they understand where I stop and where you start.
01:14:47We are two separate people.
01:14:49We are close.
01:14:50We are not fused.
01:14:52We are not that enmeshed that what happens to me happens to you.
01:14:56But when it comes to the emotional level, for many of us, that is not how we grew up either.
01:15:02We grew up with somebody who wanted their feelings to become our feelings, their needs to become
01:15:07our needs.
01:15:08And so, we have not known where to know where is the line where I stop and you start.
01:15:14That's where codependency lives.
01:15:16If someone is sitting here being like, you know what, Esther, there's a chance.
01:15:21There is a really good chance that I am in a codependent relationship.
01:15:25And I do love my partner.
01:15:28And I think we've just like fallen into this.
01:15:30And it's really, it's not toxic by choice.
01:15:33Like, it just happened.
01:15:34What are some steps that you can take within your relationship to reconnect with yourself
01:15:40and build back your individual identity while still remaining in a relationship?
01:15:47I think the first thing you do is what belongs to you and what belongs to them.
01:15:56Don't personalize.
01:15:57It's a strange thing.
01:15:58It's what you said before, you know, somehow, sometimes it's even worse if it has nothing
01:16:02to do with you.
01:16:03It's like, I would rather be part of a bad story than not be part of the story at all.
01:16:08Cast me, please.
01:16:10That's like literally the entire internet.
01:16:12They're like, this isn't my life, this isn't my situation, but I'm in it.
01:16:15And it's like, wait, what?
01:16:16You know, it's like, it's not your story.
01:16:19And you know sometimes what it means because a friend can tell you something and you don't
01:16:26instantly think it's you.
01:16:27Why do people personalize it, though?
01:16:29Because there are only two relationships that really mirror each other.
01:16:33The one you had with your family or your original caretakers, caregivers, and the one
01:16:38you have in your romantic intimacies, those two match.
01:16:42People can tell you, I don't have this with any of my friends, and I believe them.
01:16:46I don't.
01:16:46You don't.
01:16:47I'm sure you know to maintain that differentiation is what we call this, that there are two people
01:16:53here.
01:16:53And when one person feels something, the other person can feel for them, but they're not
01:16:58feeling the same thing as them.
01:17:01Esther, I could talk to you for 10 hours.
01:17:05I am so happy that you came today because I needed, and I know the Daddy Gang needed all
01:17:13of this.
01:17:13I think even from the beginning.
01:17:14You still called them the Daddy Gang.
01:17:15Daddy Gang.
01:17:16Oh, they're still the Daddy Gang, girl.
01:17:17I remember the first time you told me that.
01:17:19Oh, man.
01:17:19I remember the first time you said it and you were like, Daddy Gang, listen to me.
01:17:22And I was like, Esther, Perel, just acknowledge the Daddy Gang.
01:17:26That was, oh my God, that was everything.
01:17:28And it still is.
01:17:30I am going to go back and listen to this and like take notes.
01:17:32I have so many thoughts.
01:17:34I have so many episodes I want to make from this episode.
01:17:38You're so wise and you're so brilliant and you're so warm and generous with your time.
01:17:44And I just can't thank you enough for taking your time because I know you're so busy to
01:17:48like sit down with me and give us and impart all of your wisdom on the Daddy Gang and myself.
01:17:54I care about it.
01:17:56And I see people struggling more and more.
01:18:01And I also know that there is nothing that matters more in our lives.
01:18:05You know, it's like you have Daddy Gang.
01:18:07I have the quality of your life is determined by the quality of your relationships.
01:18:12And everything else follows from there.
01:18:15I can't thank you enough.
01:18:17It's a pleasure to be here.
01:18:18We can do another episode soon.
01:18:20We have so many topics we could have covered.
01:18:23I'm like, I know we went even for longer than I expected.
01:18:25But thank you.
01:18:27And congrats on all of your success.
01:18:29I love just watching you and the wisdom and all the things that you have given to society
01:18:37truly.
01:18:37And like, thank you.
01:18:39Thank you for always coming and stopping by and giving me your time.
01:18:42Anytime.
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