00:00So as the Nitish Kumar era draws to a close there in Bihar, joining me now is former Rajasabha MP,
00:07someone very close to Nitish Kumar at one time, Pavan Verma, author joins me. Appreciate Mr. Verma, you joining us.
00:14Nitish Kumar finally resigning as Bihar Chief Minister for two decades. He's dominated the state's politics. He's been the longest
00:22serving Chief Minister of a Hindi heartland. How will you assess Nitish Kumar's legacy? Is this the end of an
00:28era in a way?
00:34Thank you so much for having me. Without a doubt, it's the end of an era. And with that, we
00:43will now see a BJP dominated state. The transition has been smooth. There has been no fight back from the
00:51JDU. Its top leaders have been co-opted.
00:54And Mr. Nitish Kumar's failing health was such that in any case, his move to the centre as Rajasabha MP
01:02was anticipated or some other role, but he could not have continued as Chief Minister of Bihar.
01:09So, the BJP's long-awaited dream of having its own Chief Minister in Bihar has been achieved. The two Deputy
01:18Chief Ministers are from the JDU. And there's a, I think, a balanced caste equation been built in the three
01:27people who are there now.
01:29And the rest of the cabinet will be chosen. There's no fight back as such from the opposition expected because
01:35more or less it has shrunk to being irrelevant.
01:38You know, let's look at what you've just said. We'll come to, you seem to suggest that this is not
01:44just the end of the Niti Shira, but the end of the JDU in some form.
01:48You seem to believe that the JDU has now been co-opted or in some way taken over by the
01:53BJP. And therefore, Samrat Chaudhary and the BJP will now dominate. And the JDU will be very much the second
02:00fiddle in this government.
02:05Certainly, I see this at the moment. After 37 years, Rajdeep, for the first time, a Chief Minister has been
02:14appointed from Delhi. Since 1989, when the last such Chief Minister was Jagannath Mishra, appointed from Delhi, the Chief Ministers
02:23and Deputy Chief Ministers have been elected by the local leaders in Bihar.
02:28That era is over. Nitish Kumar has gone. Ram Velas Paswan has gone. Lalu Yadav is unwell. So now, for
02:39the first time, we have a BJP chosen leader, which is also numerically the largest party.
02:44The JDU with 84 MLAs could have fought back and asked for a separate identity. But it hasn't done so
02:52because, as I said, it's a process of co-option.
02:54And they don't see right now any opportunity for them to be in any way a pole in Bihar politics
03:01without the BJP. And the BJP knows this.
03:04So, as I said, several goals have been achieved in one go. The Mandel era is over. And we now
03:12have the gradual transition to what can be called the Kamandal era.
03:16You have a BJP Chief Minister.
03:18Kamandal with an OBC face.
03:19You have the JD…
03:21Kamandal with an OBC face. I mean, the fact is that the BJP has also tried to OBC-ize itself
03:27in Bihar, tried to Mandel-ize itself, co-opted Mandel forces.
03:31But I come back to where I started. Nitish Kumar's legacy. Will history judge him kindly as Sushasan Babu or
03:39will they see him as Palturam?
03:44Well, it will have to be a combination of both. But now that he's gone, there is a sense of
03:49nostalgia about the Nitish era.
03:51When he was at his peak, and I happened to have the good fortune of working closely with him, he
03:57did make remarkable changes in Bihar after the 15 years of the Lalu Yadav rule.
04:03And he will be remembered for that.
04:05In fact, he created the extremely backward caste category. And today, strangely, from his own caste, the Khoiri Kurmi, you
04:14have Samrad Chaudhary, and now as the Chief Minister.
04:21So, that Kurmi politics will continue, you have a Yadav in Rijindar Yadav, you have an upper caste in Vijay
04:28Chaudhary.
04:29So, essentially, and Sanjay Jha and Laland Singh had been co-opted, as per what I know, much earlier.
04:37So, the JDU as such does not exist earlier.
04:40Now, the Nitish era will be remembered for a time when Bihar had its own voice with a towering leader.
04:48And Nitish Kumar's voice could not have been ignored.
04:53But there has been a decline in the last few years because of his frequent political flip-flops, and most
05:01lately by his declining health.
05:03So, it's been a gradual translation. It was a low-hanging fruit to be picked up. The BJP has done
05:08that.
05:09You know, so, therefore, in conclusion, do we see how, what do you see as someone close to Nitish Kumar?
05:17What was his biggest strength? And what do you see ended up being his biggest weakness?
05:22What is it that made him this longest-serving Chief Minister, which in itself is quite remarkable in a state
05:29like Bihar?
05:32So, I'll answer it quickly. His greatest strength was, to begin with,
05:39His administrative acumen. I've been personally witness to that.
05:44His personal rectitude.
05:46His completely being transcendent of Parivarwad politics.
05:52And for the foundational changes that he brought about, if not in full measure, but substantially, post the Lalu Yadav
06:00misrule.
06:01He will be remembered for that.
06:03And for having created in Bihar a credible voice for those of the lower caste.
06:10He will be remembered for that.
06:12And there will be a nostalgia.
06:14But, at the same time, I think later,
06:19agar kursi kaatle to phir koi ilaj ne, that kind of scenario happened with him,
06:23because he made ideological flip-flops so often, that his credibility did suffer.
06:29And with that, also, his political decline began.
06:33And then, his health began to fail him.
06:36So, it was a combination of factors.
06:38But, one thing I can say to you, that the Nitish era is over now.
06:43The Nitish era is over now.
06:46Pawan Verma, for putting that in some perspective,
06:49particularly that important point you made,
06:50since 1989, for the first time,
06:53Bihar will have a chief minister who's appointed from Delhi,
06:57and not from Bihar itself,
07:00signals just how Indian politics has changed.
07:03The BJP now has its 16th chief minister in the country,
07:08in Samrat Chaudhary.
07:10Thank you very much, Pawan Verma,
07:12for joining me here on the show tonight.
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