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Colonel Chris Hadfield, astronaut and best-selling author, breaks down Artemis II and why NASA’s next crewed mission is key to returning humans to the Moon.
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00:00As Artemis II just returned from traveling around the moon, the convergence of space exploration, artificial intelligence and private capital
00:09is redefining what possibilities lie beyond Earth's atmosphere.
00:14Joining us now to discuss all of this and more is retired Canadian astronaut, former commander of the International Space
00:20Station, bestselling author and board member of Atomic Six, Colonel Chris Hadfield.
00:25Thank you so much for being here today.
00:27My pleasure. I agree with you, Justin. What an exciting time in space travel and space exploration and space commerce.
00:35Yeah, there's just so much going on here. We have so much to get to.
00:38So first of all, tell us, what are your thoughts on the Artemis II mission?
00:42What does this mean to you as someone who's been up there, who's splashed down, who's done a lot of
00:47the things that these four astronauts have done?
00:51First off, it was an extremely dangerous flight.
00:55First flight of that rocket with people on board.
00:58First flight of that spaceship with people on board.
01:01And they didn't just go around the world where they could, you know, come back in a hurry.
01:04They fired their engine and left and went to the moon and no way to turn around, you know, for
01:10six or seven days.
01:12And then, of course, coming back into the atmosphere when the heat shield hadn't worked perfectly on the unpiloted trial.
01:19All of those things stacked up and yet perfection.
01:22The vehicle was immaculate, very safe return.
01:26Early reports are the heat shield did great.
01:28And what really, I think, changed things was the humanity of the flight, the sharing of the human experience, the
01:38terrific ability of the four people on board to express what was going on and the digital imagery of the
01:45moon.
01:45You know, just an amazing, amazing flight.
01:49It was incredible.
01:50I even watched live the moon flyby part of it.
01:53There was a telecast NASA's feed.
01:57And it was incredible to hear the astronauts up there actually describing what they were seeing, trying to communicate with
02:02people on Earth.
02:03It's just an almost magical experience to get to be a part of that, even from down here on Earth.
02:08But as someone who's been up there yourself and, again, who's gone through many of the things that these astronauts
02:13went through, what do you think was going through their minds as they took off on this massive adventure?
02:19But then also as they splashed back down, what do you think they were feeling?
02:23The first three days, they would be feeling mostly anticipation because the real purpose of the flight was to get
02:30to the moon.
02:31And so the first three days, you've got to get over the motion sickness, you know, when suddenly there's no
02:36gravity, and then checking everything out and hoping that there's not going to be some sort of problem.
02:41So sort of, you know, getting yourself ready.
02:44But then as the moon started getting bigger and bigger, they were overwhelmed.
02:51And what happens is your emotions sort of get trapped behind you.
02:55You don't have time to properly absorb and react to what's happening.
03:00So what you end up doing is, as you say, sharing it, recording it, talking about it, taking pictures of
03:07it, doing everything they could so that they had all the evidence and all the memory of it as complete
03:14as they could possibly manage.
03:16Because now they have the rest of their lives to figure out what does this mean to me and what
03:21does it mean to everybody I know and how am I going to share this?
03:25And then a little bit of time on the way home as they close the, you know, 250,000 miles
03:32between here and the moon.
03:33And that's when I was emailing with the crew because finally they could catch up and actually send some emails.
03:39And, but with the earth now getting bigger and bigger and knowing that this is a largely unproven heat shield
03:46and coming in as fast as anybody's ever come into the atmosphere in history, twice as much energy as when
03:54I entered just because of the increased speed.
03:56And, but the vehicle behaved, again, perfectly, everybody did their math right.
04:03And for me, that moment when they were coming out of the communications blackout, you know, where their ship is
04:09surrounded by electromagnetic energy, as soon as Houston said, we're getting data from, you know, integrity from the Orion capsule.
04:20It's like, great, they survived, the vehicle survived, you know, they're going to make it.
04:25And then, you know, the commander checking in and then the three parachutes.
04:28I was also thinking, imagine the people that packed those parachutes years ago.
04:33There's somebody somewhere who packed those parachutes into their bag and made sure everything was just right.
04:39And imagine how they felt when the drogue chute pulled and then out come the three big parachutes and there
04:45it is safely returning.
04:46I bet you there was a lot of relief right across the board, but especially for those parachute packers.
04:54That's a very good point.
04:55You're right.
04:55All the people who had so much to do with building the spacecraft with every single little part just to
05:02make sure that those astronauts could be safe and get back home.
05:05So incredible to think about all the people, all the work, all the hours that really went into this.
05:10I mean, when you think about Artemis, it represents a very different kind of moon program than Apollo did.
05:15It's international, it includes a more diverse crew, and it's operating alongside a booming private sector now.
05:21So how does this shift really change things?
05:24And what does that mean as we look to the future?
05:27I think the big fundamental difference, Justine, is we have now gone through the exploration phase, which was Apollo.
05:35It's sort of like how we went to Antarctica 100 years ago.
05:38Our technology was just barely good enough to get there, and a lot of people died just trying to explore
05:45Antarctica, and we just about lost the Apollo 13 crew trying to explore the moon.
05:50But now the technology has gotten significantly better, and we're transitioning from exploration to settlement, just like we did in
05:59Antarctica over the last century.
06:00And that brings all other forces to play, as you say, improved technology, international cooperation, just like in Antarctica.
06:09There were, you know, three Americans and a Canadian on this Artemis II flight.
06:13And the huge opportunity commercially, first building the equipment for the governments, but eventually looking for just regular commercial opportunities
06:24that will crop up on the moon.
06:27Big difference between Antarctica and the moon.
06:30Antarctica has life, and we have to be really thoughtful about how we disrupt the biosphere of all the animals
06:36that live in Antarctica.
06:38The moon has no life.
06:40There is no biome to disrupt.
06:43It's basically a huge resource the size of Africa that we have now access to.
06:51And so it's a really exciting and interesting time in history, technologically, commercially, but also policy.
06:58How are we going to do this all together?
07:01Yeah, it's so interesting, and that's a great parallel to draw between this exploration now and what's been done with
07:07Antarctica.
07:07Thinking about what has been done in space and now what's going to be done and what people are trying
07:12to do there.
07:13You're on the board of Atomic Six, which is working to put data centers in space for people who haven't
07:18heard of this concept before, who don't really know what we're talking about.
07:21Tell us a little bit more about this core idea and why it makes sense to start doing this now.
07:26Well, everybody in their pocket, you know, has a tremendous access to artificial intelligence of some level.
07:34You know, you can put in almost any question here and it'll pop up an answer.
07:39Most of the time, right.
07:39But what's behind that, you know, the communications links, but then somewhere there's a great big computer handling all those
07:48requests and searching through all the databases and trying to create a coherent answer.
07:54And as artificial intelligence and the large language models get better, it becomes easier and easier for people to ask
08:01more and more complex questions that requires more compute.
08:05It requires more data centers.
08:09And the trouble with a big Earthbound data center is that you have all these computers in a room and
08:16it needs huge air conditioners because the computers get hot and then something has to power those air conditioners.
08:22So you need a big power source.
08:24And then you've got to somehow cool all of that, which normally requires a big water resource.
08:30And there's only so many of those on Earth and not a lot of people want them in their backyard
08:35or right next to them.
08:37So how are we going to solve that problem?
08:40And up until very recently, it wouldn't have worked in space.
08:44But we have had some recent advances in technology that suddenly make it credible.
08:50And people need to rethink their whole perception of what a data center looks like.
08:56But imagine if you had a thousand satellites, each of them with very high powered, capable computer chips on board
09:07and then eternally powered by the sun and then having a radiator that sends the cooling out to space.
09:15And then all of them communicating using a super high precision pointing lasers and light to transfer the data between
09:24them.
09:25Suddenly, that's that's a credible way to do a data center.
09:30And you just have to get the launch costs low enough so that you can put a thousand satellites and
09:34still make a profit.
09:35And that's where we are.
09:37That's what's happening right now.
09:39That's the big transition.
09:40That's why, you know, Google and Planet are doing it together.
09:44It's why Blue Origin is so interested.
09:46It's why SpaceX is interested.
09:48Everybody suddenly realized we've hit the tipping point.
09:52But the key of that is you need you need lots of solar power and you need good cooling and
10:00you need to be able to protect yourself from micrometeorites and the radiation of the universe.
10:05And that's why I'm so closely aligned and advising Atomic Six is because they build one of the most efficient
10:16solar array mechanisms and deployables that exists on Earth.
10:21They have a thing called Hot Wing, a great design in order to cool a spaceship like that.
10:27And they build space armor in order to be able to protect the precious cargo inside.
10:32So they're in a great position to provide all of the technology that the industry and that customers need just
10:40as we're making this transition.
10:43Yeah, it's incredible to think about it.
10:45Honestly, it sounds a little bit like a sci-fi movie.
10:47So thinking about something that can actually be built like this is just amazing.
10:51You mentioned that now this is possible because of new technology that's finally here that enables this to actually be
10:57built.
10:58So is there a one main big thing that now is enabling this?
11:02I know you mentioned a few other different things that are happening in all of these technological advances.
11:07But is there one thing that people need to keep in mind as like this is the thing that now
11:12is making this possible?
11:14We have deep experience in launching interconnected communication swarms or intercommunication satellites, like thousands of them.
11:26We didn't know how to do that 10 years ago.
11:28But now, I mean, lots of people are getting their Internet.
11:31In fact, I am talking to you from Starlink.
11:34And so we know how to do that.
11:37The very precise pointing and using of lasers in order to provide intercommunication.
11:43So important to a lot of folks maybe don't know.
11:45But when you move light through fiber optics, like a lot of people get it at home, it moves through
11:52a fiber optic cable, a tube of glass, essentially, slower than it moves through the vacuum of space.
11:58You can actually increase the speed of what's happening as the light moves through the vacuum of space.
12:04That's just sort of an aside.
12:06But the key technology is we know how to build laser connected constellations of satellites in orbit.
12:15And the next piece is how can we get the cost down low enough so that it's financially viable to
12:23put whatever, a thousand satellites up.
12:24And the cost of launch because of reusable spaceships, semi-reusable right now, has radically dropped.
12:34And the testing that's going on with Starship, 100% reusable launch vehicle and spaceship, that is perhaps going to
12:43be the watershed when this truly becomes economically viable.
12:47A great big ship, you can put a whole swarm of satellites out, and satellites that can steer and don't
12:55hit each other, and reuse that entire ship so the cost comes way down.
13:00And, you know, we're not quite there yet, but we're getting close.
13:03And to me, all these things are coming together, and that's why it's really important from a business point of
13:09view right now to anticipate it, to look into the future, and to be a first mover.
13:17Yeah, it's amazing to think about.
13:19I know you're talking about a lot of different pieces of the puzzle that need to come together here to
13:23make this truly viable.
13:24When do you think that might happen?
13:26Are we talking a few years?
13:28Are we talking a decade or so?
13:30When do you think we can actually start to see this happen?
13:34It's shorter than a decade.
13:36We're in the few years category right now.
13:39But if I said to you, hey, let's build a great, I don't know where you are in the world,
13:43but let's say, I don't know, New Jersey.
13:45Hey, let's build a great, okay, New York.
13:48Let's build a big data center in New York.
13:53Okay, go.
13:55It would be the order of years before it's built.
13:58The permitting and the infrastructure and all of the power and connectivity and all of that stuff, it's years.
14:09And it's not cheap, you know.
14:11So just because it's not quite here yet and it's not free to do it in space, boy, that's exactly
14:19true on Earth as well.
14:20And as the demand increases, it opens up a whole new possibility.
14:25When you look at it from a, people say the 30,000-foot view, but that's pretty low for an
14:31astronaut.
14:31But when you look at it from above, how are these two solutions to the same problem actually competing with
14:38each other?
14:38And if you look in the distant future, eventually we will move a lot of things to space.
14:45You know, as our launch gets as cheap and as reliable and as massive as it can, then it'll make
14:52a lot more sense to move things to space that right now we do here in the bubble of air
14:57that we all breathe.
14:58So it's exciting to me that we're at that threshold right now.
15:04And I want to be part of the group of people that is looking forward and realizing, how are we
15:09going to take advantage of this?
15:10How are we going to use it to the benefit of humanity and make things more sustainable so that we're
15:16not, you know, using up all Earth-based resources just to keep the power plants running?
15:23Wow, it's amazing to think about where all of this is going to go and to look at all of
15:27that up in space.
15:29And back down here now on Earth, looking at some of the private companies that are involved in all of
15:34this, SpaceX is reportedly eyeing a massive IPO that could be one of the biggest ever in history.
15:39So what do you think that signals about where the space industry is heading right now?
15:45A lot of people have been looking at SpaceX for a long time.
15:49And initially, everyone thought they were crazy, you know.
15:55And if you look at the early pictures of SpaceX, it was comic, right?
15:59A handful of people, and they hired a mariachi band to start their business.
16:05And then they blew up the first several rockets that they launched.
16:10And they were right on the hairy edge of running out of everything, impetus, money, support.
16:16But they made it through.
16:18And now they dominate launch for the entire world.
16:21They have built far and away the best solution to launch.
16:25It's more reliable and cheaper than anybody else.
16:29And that hasn't stopped.
16:32You know, they're continuing to refine it.
16:34And it's really hard, but I have confidence they're going to get their Starship working.
16:40Maybe not to go to Mars, maybe not even to get to the moon for quite a while.
16:46But as far as putting stuff into Earth orbit, it's already basically done that.
16:53On its test flights, they used its deployment mechanism to fire out some simulators of Starlink satellites.
17:01Now, the vehicle wasn't on an orbital trajectory, but all the building blocks were there and already pretty much shown.
17:07So I think that's coming fast.
17:10And that's just a piece of SpaceX.
17:14So they're brave and they are technically ahead of most of the world.
17:21And they really have a long-term vision for how this is going to be integrated into human society and
17:28human history, this important technology of cheap access to space.
17:32So I can understand why they're doing an IPO.
17:34And, you know, they're playing all the IPO games, of course, but everybody involved in the business is savvy to
17:41that.
17:42But it's also an amazing business that a lot of people are interested in.
17:48Definitely.
17:49It definitely is something for us to keep our eye on.
17:51And finally, for someone who's actually lived and worked in space, what do you want people here on Earth to
17:56understand about why all of this matters?
17:59Why should everyone here be paying attention to what's happening above us in space right now?
18:04Well, the classic example is think of, I don't know, think of Henry Ford, right?
18:12He suddenly realized that horses have a limitation and the technology and the metallurgy and the engine technology and rubber
18:24technology was just getting good enough that maybe he could build a practical car.
18:29And there wasn't any real demand for it yet because people already could get everywhere they needed.
18:35They had horses and it was fine.
18:38And I think his quote was in 1912, if he had asked people what they wanted, they would have said
18:42faster horses.
18:44But he created a product, the Model T car, that suddenly, even though there weren't good roads, there were no
18:52gas stations, there were no regulations, no stop signs, stop lights.
18:57I don't even know how you got a driver's license back in 1912.
19:00But by 1915, that the inherent utility of the Model T was so overpoweringly obvious that it took the world
19:11by storm and the whole world transitioned from horses to cars in just a matter of a few years.
19:19And you need to look at space transportation in a similar light.
19:24It is opening up all new capabilities and stuff like Atomic Six that I'm part of.
19:30They're looking at how do you how do you let people then how do you build the parts so that
19:36you have a successful company?
19:37But then how do you give people opportunity to take advantage of this new technology with something like, you know,
19:44orbital data centers dot space,
19:46where you can just come in and easily you don't have to be a rocket scientist,
19:50but you can now get a product that is highly valuable to you in the time that you need it.
19:58And there's a lot of companies looking at that, but I really think Atomic Six is an early mover.
20:04And that's why I'm working with them.
20:07Well, it's just incredible. Thank you so much for being here, Colonel Chris Hadfield.
20:11So much to talk about. I could talk to you for hours. We really appreciate all of your time today.
20:15Thank you so much.
20:16Thank you, Justine. Pretty exciting week in space travel and way more to come.
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