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The big talking point of this episode of News Today is the US President Donald Trump's 15-point proposal to Iran to end the Middle East conflict.
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00:01Good evening, hello and welcome. You're with the news today, your primetime destination news,
00:06newsmakers, talking points this Wednesday night. The big question, are Donald Trump and Benjamin
00:11Netanyahu on the same page on finding a deal in the war against Iran? Do the back channel talks
00:20have Israel's backing or not? We'll be joined by a top Israeli official today. Also, the Hormuz
00:28blockade choking the global economy. An expert on the Straits of Hormuz and chokeholds will join us
00:35tonight. Plus, we'll look at the big issue of transgender rights on a day when that bill has
00:42been passed in Parliament. But first, it's time for the nine headlines at nine. Government assured the
00:50opposition during an all-party meeting that India's energy needs are secure. On Pakistan's mediation
00:57push, Foreign Minister Jai Shankar tells the opposition India is not a broker nation.
01:05Amidst the LPG crisis, government mandates switch to pipe gas and orders to halt LPG supply to
01:12households that do not shift to pipe natural gas in areas where such infrastructure is already
01:18available. It's a sign that there is a problem on the ground.
01:24Iran rejects Donald Trump's 15-point ceasefire plan, specifies their own five conditions.
01:31Tehran warns payment for war damages. Sovereign right over Strait of Hormuz must be with Tehran.
01:41Massive escalation expected in West Asia war. Pentagon mulls to deploy thousand airborne soldiers
01:48in Middle East. Iran warns Washington says, do not trust our resolve to defend our land.
01:56Donald Trump's approval ratings crashed to a new low amidst the raging war. Latest Reuters
02:01Ipsos poll shows just 36% Americans giving a thumbs up to Trump's performance.
02:10Rupee once again closes to a record low. Slums by 29.00 to close at 94.05 against the dollar,
02:18keeping investors on edge.
02:22The Congress gets an eviction notice by the government asking the party to vacate offices
02:27it occupied for 48 hours. Party considers legal option against government notice.
02:35Delhi police busts a global armed smuggling network with links to Pakistan.
02:40Apart from arresting 10 criminals, seizes 21 high-tech foreign weapons and 200 live cartridges.
02:49And star Egyptian forward Mohamed Salah brings the curtains down on his illustrious spell
02:54at Liverpool. 191 Premier League goals. He's the club's top EPL goalscorer.
03:12The big story at this moment that we want to break. The Modi government chaired an all-party
03:17meeting on the West Asia war this evening. All the major parties except the Trinamul Congress
03:23participated in that all-party meeting that was held this evening. Government has assured the
03:29opposition India's energy needs are secured. Government during the meeting said things
03:36are under control, no need to panic. Government has asked, opposition asked the government
03:41about Pakistan's mediation push. The external affairs minister reportedly told the opposition
03:46India is not a broker nation. Listen in first to the parliamentary affairs minister Kiran
03:52to the public, V적ia, and the capital element. The party of appli of all parties parties
03:57has a subject to their party. And the domestic groups have enrolled in Iran, Israel and America
04:12with its own interests and appreciated They have been pulled through all the opposition
04:19of the opposition. The parties in Iran and Israel. The two parties have been accomplished. The
04:34I want to first go to Aishwarya Paliwal who was tracking that meeting.
04:39Aishwarya, the big story coming is that the government is claiming energy needs secured.
04:44At the same time, there are reports coming of the need that the government is emphasizing
04:48to use more and more piped gas.
04:51Clearly, the government at one level concerned.
04:54Can you tell us how, what was the messaging of the government at the meeting?
05:00Is it all is well or there is genuine concern?
05:08Well, you know, Rajdeep, let me tell you, it's a mixed bag because the government has told
05:12each and every opposition parties, those who were present in this meeting, the meeting
05:15roughly lasted for almost two hours.
05:17They told all the opposition parties that there is no need to panic.
05:20The government, in fact, let me tell you, also gave a detailed data analysis.
05:24They also gave a presentation.
05:26In this presentation, they told all the opposition parties the amount that they already have in
05:30the reserve, the amount which is on the way and what the government will do just in case
05:34we actually see some kind of crisis taking place.
05:37So the opposition parties, in fact, the floor was open to them.
05:40A lot of them even asked them, will we see a COVID-like situation?
05:43So the government very, very clearly told them there will be no lockdown.
05:47There will be no restrictions that will be put in place.
05:49The important thing to note, Rajdeep, is the fact that there are four ships on the way
05:53and we could see in the next two to three days those four ships, in fact, docking at various
05:57ports in our country.
05:58So the government is saying that, yes, when we are asking our own people, you need to look
06:03at where all you are spending, the LPG and the energy.
06:05That is something that the government is keeping an eye on.
06:08But yes, advance payments and in fact, advance orders have also been placed by the government
06:12keeping the crisis in mind.
06:14So no question of an energy lockdown.
06:16There was all these rumours doing the rounds, energy lockdown.
06:20Government is looking at some kind of attempt to ensure a rationalization of LPG as well.
06:28Is the government confident that they will get this LPG situation under control?
06:37Well, look, the confidence level of the government at the moment, Rajdeep, is at a hundred percent
06:42because they believe that what they are now doing, you know, working not just at one place
06:47but at different places.
06:48A, making sure that the refineries in India, they actually over the past 15 days, they have
06:52been given explicit orders that now you need to make sure that from your refineries, 90%
06:57of the LPG comes out.
06:59The other thing that the government is now doing, and that's something that the foreign
07:02minister also emphasized on, is the constant conversation that they are having with all
07:06the leaders in Gulf.
07:08So they are also saying that there are possibilities and also chances that because of diplomacy,
07:12we could see more ships also coming out and coming onto our ports.
07:16So those are the things that the government very clearly are saying.
07:19But yes, very, very clearly, all the opposition parties have been told that you do not need
07:23to panic.
07:24And these rumours, Rajdeep, we all have heard about them.
07:26These rumours, the government has busted them and said that these are only rumours.
07:30Do not expect the government to do something like that in days to come.
07:33Okay.
07:34Aishwarya Paliwal, appreciate you joining me there with those details.
07:38Now, just to bring you up to speed with what is happening on day 26 of the West Asia war,
07:44which is still on an escalatory spiral.
07:46According to Iran state media, Tehran has made it clear it will not allow the United States
07:51or Donald Trump to dictate the timing or terms of the war's end.
07:55The message conveyed through regional intermediaries equally blunt.
07:59Iran will continue to defend itself.
08:01There are no signs of backing down.
08:04This, as media reports say, Pakistan has shared a 15-point U.S. peace plan with Iran and is
08:10awaiting a response.
08:12Washington, meanwhile, is rapidly deploying more troops and assets to West Asia, signaling
08:17readiness for escalation and a push to protect U.S. interests and allies.
08:21Iran responding with a sharp warning, saying it is closely monitoring the build-up,
08:25cautioning the U.S. against being drawn into decisions driven by Israel.
08:30Tehran's message clear.
08:31Do not test our resolve to defend our land.
08:35An aerial attack on a military base in West Iraq's Anbar province has killed seven fighters,
08:41wounded 13, according to Iraq's Ministry of Defense.
08:44The strikes on Wednesday targeted the military healthcare base, according to its heinous crime
08:50violating all international norms.
08:52The UN Human Rights Council has condemned Iran's attacks on its Gulf neighbors,
08:57calling for a swift and reparation for all victims of its strikes.
09:01It backed a resolution brought by the six GCC nations and Jordan, condemning those attacks
09:08and calling for an immediate cease of all unprovoked attacks.
09:12Meanwhile, Israel is continuing its attack on southern Lebanon.
09:16Amidst that, Hezbollah chief Naim Qasim in a statement said,
09:19while negotiating with Israel amounts to surrender, call for unity.
09:24Remember, more than a thousand people have died in Lebanon.
09:28over a million have been displaced.
09:35I want to go at this moment to Ashraf Wani, joining me from Beirut in Lebanon.
09:39Pranay Upadhyay joins me from Tel Aviv in Israel.
09:43Pranay, the Iranians have made it clear a short while ago,
09:47no question of their backing down from,
09:51to have a negotiated settlement on America's terms.
09:55Is there a sense that Israel, that you're getting, that Israel is continuing its attacks,
10:01so Israel has no time, in a way, for any deal at the moment with Iran either?
10:08Certainly, Rajdeep, I don't think so that Israel is in a mood to have a direct negotiation
10:12or any direct dialogue with Iran.
10:14Rather, the United States is engaging with Iran, with some via media, some via channels.
10:19We do not know exactly that what role Pakistan is playing
10:22or whether they were only used for the delivery as a postman.
10:29But as far as the ground situation is concerned,
10:32the missiles are still raining, you know, in Iran as well.
10:36And also, the Israeli missile hits and Israeli airstrikes are continuing in Iran.
10:41And also, in various parts of Israel as well, the missiles from Iran are raining.
10:47I'm currently coming back to Tel Aviv from Ramadan, the central part of Israel.
10:52And recently, there was a missile hit in a populated area, in a residential area,
10:58which is largely populated by the Orthodox Jews there.
11:01And the Israelis are saying that, you know, intentionally,
11:05the residential areas are increasingly being targeted by these missiles.
11:09And clearly, there are hostilities, there are strikes being carried out,
11:12and there are no signs on the ground.
11:15As far as, you know, President Donald Trump and his peace overtures are concerned,
11:19there is no cessation of hostility, and there is no cessation of these strikes.
11:24I want to go to also Ashraf Vani from Beirut, Lebanon,
11:28because one of the stories that is not being reported enough is what is happening in Lebanon.
11:33Remember, as I said earlier, a thousand people have died.
11:36Almost a million have been displaced in Lebanon.
11:39And there is now talk, Ashraf, that Israel intends to take over the entire southern Lebanon area.
11:46Where you are, which you are seeing,
11:49is there a target of civilians there, which is the knowledge of thousands of people's death?
11:54Are there a lot of civilians in Israel in the strikes?
11:57Are there a lot of civilians in it?
12:00Yes, absolutely.
12:01Rajdeep, actually, this is a small country with the population of 60 lakh.
12:05Out of 60 lakh population, 10 lakh, 1 million population is already displaced from their homes.
12:13Most of them from the southern Lebanon.
12:16Southern Lebanon has not been captured the first time,
12:19or the war is going on down.
12:21But earlier also, in the 70s, then in 2006,
12:25to create a kind of a buffer zone,
12:27Israel already had made its invasion in the south Lebanon.
12:33But this time, it seems that the plan of Benjamin Netanyahu's career,
12:37as they did in the Gaza,
12:39by fighting with the Hamas,
12:42they are creating the same kind of a space in fight with the Hezbollah here.
12:46No, but what is happening?
12:47Tell me what is happening on the ground where you are in Lebanon.
12:50Are people, when we are told a million people have been displaced,
12:53where are these people?
12:54In a small country, where are they?
12:56They are out of their homes.
12:57They've been completely displaced out of southern Lebanon.
13:00Yes, absolutely.
13:01Some of them are residing at their places of their relatives.
13:05Some of them are in schools.
13:07Some of them are in the shelter homes,
13:10which are very limited.
13:11And some of them are on the roads.
13:13We have already reported stories
13:15where people come from the,
13:16particularly from the southern suburb of Beirut,
13:18which is the capital.
13:19Five lakh people are only displaced
13:21from that part of this capital city of Beirut.
13:25And also, that is one story.
13:28But another thing is that
13:29the severe infrastructure is getting damaged
13:31in the aerial strikes.
13:33I visited yesterday to the southern Lebanon.
13:36Today also,
13:37that how not only the job,
13:38not only the future,
13:39but also all the logistics,
13:42all the facilities,
13:43which were provided for those people,
13:45including the bridges for the transportation,
13:48those had been also bombed by Israel so far.
13:51And just now,
13:52just I was preparing for this chat with you.
13:55I just heard a blast in the outskirts of Beirut.
13:59And now I'm getting report that
14:01another aerial strike has been carried out
14:03by the IDF in the south suburb of Beirut,
14:06which is being considered as hard,
14:09as the hotbed of Hezbollah.
14:11And already that part of the city
14:13has been already ordered
14:16to get vacated by the IDF to wax back.
14:18Okay.
14:20Ashraf Wani,
14:21stay safe.
14:21You're in an area where,
14:22as I said,
14:23the bombs are falling in and around Beirut.
14:26It's one of the unseen aspects of the war
14:28is Israel using this war now
14:30to once again capture a part of Lebanon.
14:35Pranayupadhyay and Ashraf Wani,
14:38thank you very much for joining me.
14:39I want to raise big questions
14:40because I've got a special guest
14:42joining me from Israel.
14:43Are Trump and Netanyahu
14:44really on the same page or not?
14:46Do back channel talks
14:48have Israel's backing or not?
14:50Does Israel have any red lines
14:52on their talks with Iran?
14:53Is Israel's war on Lebanon
14:55to be seen as an act of illegal aggression?
14:58Joining me now is Michael Oren.
15:00He's former Israeli ambassador
15:01to the United States.
15:03Appreciate your joining us, Mr. Oren.
15:05Let's start with that first question
15:07at the outset.
15:08We are getting from America
15:10indications that they are keen
15:12on some kind of back channel talks.
15:14A 15-point plan is being passed on
15:17to the Iranians through Pakistan.
15:19But the Israelis are carrying on
15:21with their airstrikes both on Iran
15:23and on the Hezbollah in Lebanon.
15:25Are the two sides now increasingly diverging
15:29in their view of how this,
15:31what is the trajectory of this war, Mr. Oren?
15:35Well, good to be with you.
15:36Good. Thank you for having me on.
15:37Well, right now we're sort of at a crossroads.
15:40The United States, for the record,
15:42is also continuing its attacks against Iran.
15:44It's not involved with the fighting in Lebanon.
15:47That's purely an Israeli Hezbollah fight.
15:49Hezbollah continues to shell
15:51the northern part of Israel,
15:52and Israel has no choice
15:53but to return fire there.
15:55The issue then will be the 15 points.
15:58And the 15 points, as they stand now,
16:00address all of Israel's war aims.
16:02These were the common war aims
16:03that were set out by Mr. Netanyahu
16:05and Mr. Trump at the outset of the fighting.
16:08And they are,
16:09and I'll just give you the short version,
16:11no more nuclear program for Iran,
16:12no more building ballistic missiles,
16:14such as the missiles that are hitting Israel today,
16:16no more support for terrorist groups
16:18across the Middle East.
16:20Taking the enriched uranium,
16:24there's about 450 kilograms of highly enriched uranium
16:27that have been buried underground.
16:28It's enough for 11 nuclear bombs.
16:31Taking that arsenal and getting it out of the country,
16:34shipping it out to someplace.
16:36And for the United States,
16:38also reopening the Straits of Hormuz.
16:40For Israel, it would be certainly
16:41stopping the fire from Hezbollah.
16:44Now, all those issues are addressed in the 15 points.
16:46The question is,
16:47the big question that Israelis are asking,
16:48does the United States then get into a negotiation
16:51with the Iranians
16:52that's going to be dragged out?
16:54And at the end of the day,
16:55the Iranians may accept some things in principle,
16:58but not implement them.
16:59And the example we had is what happened in Gaza,
17:02where the Hamas agreed to give up its weapons,
17:06but to this day has not given up a single rifle.
17:09Now, so while those negotiations,
17:11if they take place,
17:12you're saying Israel will not be part of the negotiations.
17:15Israel will carry on with its airstrikes
17:17in Lebanon and Iran?
17:20Well, they're not talking about a ceasefire just yet.
17:22So if there was a ceasefire,
17:24Donald Trump could say to Israel,
17:25okay, I'm having a ceasefire,
17:27and now you're going to have a ceasefire.
17:29Because that's precisely what happened last summer,
17:30if you remember,
17:31during the 12-day war.
17:33At the end of the 12 days,
17:35Israel wanted to continue.
17:36We had planes in the air
17:37that were going with full,
17:39fully armed toward Iran.
17:41And President Trump told President Prime Minister Netanyahu
17:44to tell those planes to turn around
17:46and come back home.
17:47We're heavily dependent on the United States.
17:49We're heavily dependent on the United States
17:50for ammunition, for fuel,
17:52for diplomatic cover.
17:54So when the President gives an order like that,
17:57the Prime Minister is almost,
17:59almost duty-bound to obey.
18:02So let me get this clear again.
18:05You're telling me that if the United States,
18:08if Donald Trump rings up Benjamin Netanyahu
18:10and says,
18:11look, I have some kind of a deal in place,
18:13I have, we're negotiating the deal,
18:16till the deal is over,
18:18there will be a cessation of hostilities.
18:20Benjamin Netanyahu will agree?
18:23Yes, I don't think he'll have much choice.
18:25And that's been the case in the past.
18:27You know, going back to ancient history,
18:29going back to the 1956 Suez crisis,
18:31every single Israeli-Arab war in the Middle East,
18:34every operation we've had against Hezbollah and Hamas,
18:37the United States has told us to stop.
18:40And every time we stopped,
18:42we are, you know, we are a small country.
18:45And so we have to take very seriously
18:47that what the Prime Minister can do
18:49is he can say to the President,
18:50okay, but if Iran violates this agreement,
18:54what is the United States,
18:55what guarantees the United States
18:56are going to give to us?
18:58Can you give us better weapons, for example,
19:01to counter the Iranian threat?
19:02Will you let us continue to fight Hezbollah
19:05so we can secure the northern part of the country,
19:07the Galilee?
19:08There are ways that the United States and Israel
19:10can engage in a dialogue,
19:12which is not just the United States saying to Israel,
19:15stop under no conditions.
19:17We are very, very close allies,
19:19and especially after this war.
19:21So we can engage in an intimate discussion
19:23with the United States
19:24about better ways of reconciling our interests.
19:27But meanwhile, you're carrying on
19:29with what many believe is an illegal aggression
19:31on Lebanon at the moment.
19:34Israel claims it's targeting the Hezbollah,
19:37but the fact is,
19:38more than a thousand people have died,
19:40many of them civilians.
19:42Civilian areas have been hit.
19:44A million people have been displaced in Lebanon.
19:46Is this an illegal war being carried out
19:49by Israel on Lebanon,
19:53opening a new front?
19:55I'm not an international lawyer,
19:56but I'd be hard-pressed to figure out
19:58what law would deem this an illegal war.
20:02Killing civilians, killing civilian areas.
20:05Mr. Oren, targeting civilian areas
20:07surely is not part of international law.
20:10We're not targeting...
20:11Lebanon is a sovereign nation.
20:13We're targeting Hezbollah areas,
20:15and Hezbollah embeds itself in downtown Beirut.
20:19So here you have an organization.
20:20What would India do in a situation like this?
20:22If you were being targeted by another country
20:24that is sending hundreds of rockets,
20:26not dozens, but hundreds of rockets
20:28onto your civilian population
20:29with the express purpose of killing, killing civilians.
20:33They're not like trying to avoid civilians.
20:35They're trying to kill civilians.
20:35They killed a young woman last night.
20:38We have to strike back.
20:39Of course we do.
20:40Under any international law,
20:41I don't care what definition,
20:43there's nothing remotely, remotely illegal
20:45about this war.
20:45In fact, it is the ultimate moral imperative
20:48that we strike about against Hezbollah.
20:50That's the nature of sovereignty.
20:51What is the moral imperative in killing civilians?
20:53I come back to it.
20:54What is the moral imperative?
20:55We've seen children being killed in Iran.
20:58We're seeing civilians being killed in Israel
21:00and in Lebanon,
21:02and you're saying there's a moral imperative?
21:04Of course there is.
21:05Of course there is.
21:06This was a war that was started entirely,
21:10entirely by Hezbollah,
21:11and it is continued by Hezbollah.
21:14And any country,
21:15and certainly my country,
21:16has every right under any definition
21:18of international law to defend itself.
21:20And if you have a better way
21:21of defending yourself against Hezbollah,
21:23which is embedded in a civilian population,
21:26other than striking Hezbollah where it is
21:28and warning the civilian population
21:29to the best degree you can
21:31to evacuate the areas
21:32that are going to be combat
21:34and struck by our aircraft
21:35or struck by artillery,
21:36which is what we do,
21:37we do that.
21:39So how would you respond to those,
21:41Mr. Ambassador,
21:42how would you respond to those
21:43who are saying that this is,
21:44you're making Lebanon the new Gaza.
21:46We saw the killings that took place in Gaza.
21:49Again, a lot of children, women,
21:51civilians killed.
21:52Now it's happening in Lebanon.
21:54How would you respond to those who say
21:55Israel is behaving like an irresponsible,
21:59dare one say,
22:00according to one American guest
22:02I had yesterday, a rogue nation?
22:04Well, if that's the definition
22:06of a rogue nation,
22:07if we have the choice
22:08of being told on any television station
22:10that we're a rogue nation
22:11or having our country live,
22:14having our civilians survive,
22:16then we'll deal with the criticism
22:18on television,
22:19with all due respect.
22:20We actually have no choice here.
22:22And it's interesting,
22:23in this war,
22:24we have something of the order
22:25of 95% of the Israeli population
22:27are behind this war with Iran.
22:29And with the North,
22:31it's even higher.
22:32So if 100% of Israelis
22:33are telling you
22:34that this is an absolutely
22:35moral imperative,
22:36it is a just war,
22:38then, you know,
22:39whatever people say
22:40on whatever television station
22:41is not going to make them
22:42to change their minds.
22:44Mr. Oren,
22:44the fact is the Iranians
22:46have responded today
22:47through their state media
22:48saying they are not interested
22:49in any negotiation.
22:51They will protect
22:52their sovereignty.
22:53How do you see that?
22:54If anything,
22:55it seems that the regime
22:56that perhaps you want out
22:58is only becoming
22:59more and more hardline
23:00in Iran
23:01and there is
23:02a nationalistic sentiment
23:03in Iran as well
23:04just as it is
23:05in your country.
23:07Well, I think that
23:09I'm not surprised.
23:10I think the Iranians
23:11have a different
23:12definition of victory.
23:13It's a very similar
23:14definition to Hamas.
23:15Hamas didn't care
23:16how many civilians
23:17were killed,
23:17doesn't care how much
23:18of Gaza was destroyed
23:19as long as at the end
23:20of the war
23:20it can emerge from a tunnel
23:22and do a V sign
23:23and say we won.
23:24Iran doesn't care
23:25how many boats
23:26the United States
23:27sinks or how many
23:29nuclear or ballistic
23:31facilities are destroyed.
23:32At the end of the day
23:33what they care about
23:33is survival.
23:35And right now,
23:36what can I say?
23:36They have survived.
23:37And so they feel
23:38that they can go
23:39into these negotiations
23:40from a position of strength.
23:42And I can't speak to that.
23:43I'm not a spokesman
23:44for the White House
23:45for the Trump administration.
23:49But in Israel,
23:51we would hope
23:52that the United States
23:53would continue
23:54to adopt a very strong
23:55military position
23:56in the Middle East
23:57even as it negotiates.
23:59It has to negotiate
24:00from a position of strength
24:01not from a position
24:01of weakness.
24:02So what is the end game
24:04then, Mr. Ambassador?
24:06Because you've got
24:07seemingly America
24:08ready to negotiate
24:10based on the
24:10Straits of Hormuz
24:11being opened
24:12plus, of course,
24:13Iran agreeing
24:14to certain
24:15nuclear conditions
24:17that are put
24:17on their nuclear program.
24:20Israel seems to want
24:21if not regime change
24:23the decapitation
24:24or the decimation
24:25of the Iranian leadership.
24:27So is there,
24:28I come back to it,
24:29what, according to you,
24:30is the end game
24:31that will actually
24:31end this war?
24:33The end game would be
24:34the elimination
24:35of the Iranian threat.
24:36You have a regime
24:37in Tehran,
24:38the Islamic Republic,
24:39which from the very first day
24:41it came into power
24:42in 1979
24:42has not missed a day
24:44when it has not sworn
24:45to destroy this country
24:46and to kill everybody in it.
24:48And not just swear,
24:49it's not just rhetoric.
24:50They act on it.
24:51They act on it
24:52all the time.
24:53And so what we want to do
24:55is eliminate the threat.
24:56If there's a government
24:57in Tehran...
24:58Eliminate the leadership
24:58or the threat?
24:59Let's get that clear.
25:00Eliminate the leadership
25:01or the threat,
25:01Mr. Ambassador?
25:03That's an excellent question
25:04because you can make...
25:05It's almost a philosophical question.
25:07If the Iranian regime
25:08gives up its nuclear ambition,
25:10gives up its ballistic missiles,
25:11gives up its support for terror,
25:13well, okay,
25:14that would be fine by us,
25:15but it won't be the same regime
25:16because support for terror
25:18is in the DNA
25:19of this regime.
25:20So it will be...
25:21It may have the same name,
25:22but it will be
25:23a very different regime.
25:24So I'll repeat.
25:25The goal for Israel,
25:27and I think it's not so different
25:28than the goal
25:28of the United States,
25:29is to end the Iranian threat
25:31against this country,
25:33against the United States,
25:34and against the world.
25:35But I will press you
25:36one last time.
25:37Therefore,
25:38do you agree with Donald Trump
25:39when he pushed
25:40the pause button,
25:42said I'm doing
25:42a five-day pause
25:45on the strikes
25:46on Iran's power plants,
25:48or do you believe
25:49that this is only buying time?
25:51Do you believe
25:51the United States
25:52wants to prosecute
25:54this war any further?
25:55You're saying
25:56there's high support
25:57in Israel for the war,
25:58but that's not the case
25:59in the United States.
26:00Do you see an early end
26:01to this war,
26:02or are we in a prolonged conflict,
26:04Mr. Ambassador?
26:05I don't know.
26:06You'd have to ask
26:07the Iranians that,
26:08and whether they think
26:09they can hold on
26:09for even longer.
26:11Clearly,
26:11the United States
26:12wants to end the war.
26:13We'd like to end the war, too,
26:14if the war ends
26:15with the elimination
26:16of the Iranian threat.
26:18That's the best
26:19we can say right now.
26:20I think we have a fear
26:21in this country,
26:22and I'll be very honest
26:23with you,
26:23that the Iranians
26:24are very, very good negotiators.
26:26And once you get
26:27into a negotiate
26:28with them,
26:28they will drag their feet.
26:29They'll try to water down
26:31America's demands.
26:33And our big fear
26:34is that, you know,
26:34if the Iranian regime
26:36emerges from this war
26:37and can rebuild
26:38all of its military capabilities,
26:39we'll have to fight
26:40the war again
26:41in 10 years,
26:42maybe five years,
26:44and perhaps not
26:45with the same ally
26:46we have in Donald Trump.
26:47Is there a possibility
26:48of a ground affair?
26:50Would Israel support
26:51a ground offensive
26:52in Iran?
26:53There's been talk
26:54that the U.S.
26:55is sending in more troops
26:56into the area.
26:57Possibilities of a ground offensive.
26:59Would Israel support that?
27:02The issue of boots
27:03on the ground
27:03is not an Israeli issue.
27:04It's an American issue.
27:06We have boots
27:06on the ground.
27:07We have hundreds
27:07of thousands of soldiers
27:08fighting in Lebanon
27:09right now.
27:10It's not the issue
27:10for us.
27:12These are not forces
27:14sent overseas.
27:15They're sent, you know,
27:16a couple of hundred yards
27:17over our border.
27:19And so we will support
27:20any measure
27:21that the president
27:22deems necessary
27:23to prosecute the war
27:25and to achieve
27:26its war aims.
27:27Okay.
27:28I'm going to leave it there,
27:30Mr. Oren.
27:31Former Israeli ambassador
27:32to the United States
27:33for giving us
27:34your perspective.
27:35Appreciate you joining me
27:37on the show tonight.
27:38Now, as you can see there,
27:40Israel also holding on hard
27:41and so is Iran
27:42because the breaking news,
27:44we reflected some of it
27:45at the top of the show.
27:46Iran has laid out
27:47five conditions
27:48to end the war.
27:50Condition one,
27:51complete halt
27:52to U.S. aggression.
27:53Condition two,
27:54guaranteed payment
27:55for the war damages.
27:57Condition three,
27:58end the war
27:59against all groups
28:00in the region.
28:01Condition four,
28:02sovereign right for Iran
28:03over the Strait of Hormuz.
28:05And condition five,
28:07Iran should not
28:08be attacked again.
28:09Those are the five conditions.
28:11Report says that Iran
28:12says we will end the war
28:14only if our conditions
28:16are met.
28:17So clearly the two sides
28:19are extremely divergent,
28:21at least in their
28:21public statements.
28:22And at the heart of this,
28:24at the heart of this,
28:25at least as far
28:26the United States
28:27is concerned,
28:27is the Strait of Hormuz,
28:29now the world's
28:30biggest pressure point.
28:32Iran has tightened
28:33its grip on a route
28:34that carries nearly
28:35one-fifth of global oil.
28:37Prices already surging
28:38across the world,
28:39including shortages
28:42in countries,
28:43supply chains
28:44being under stress,
28:45and the global economy
28:46is feeling the heat.
28:48With the US
28:48pushing a ceasefire plan,
28:50Iran holding firm,
28:52the stakes
28:53couldn't be higher.
28:54In a moment,
28:54I'll be joined by an expert
28:56on the Hormuz Strait
28:57and chokeholds,
28:58but first,
28:59take a look at this report.
29:03The eyes of the world
29:04are glued to the
29:05Strait of Hormuz,
29:06which Iran is using
29:07to control
29:08and potentially choke
29:09the global energy
29:10supply chain.
29:12So far,
29:13this strategy
29:14has worked for Tehran,
29:15which has raised
29:16the economic cost
29:17for the entire world.
29:19The risk of 20%
29:21of global oil supplies
29:22are stuck
29:23in the Persian Gulf.
29:25Over 80%
29:26of oil supplies
29:27from Gulf
29:28go to Asian nations.
29:29There has been
29:31a jump of more than
29:3240% in Brent crude
29:34oil prices.
29:35Gasoline prices
29:36have risen
29:37more than 30%
29:38in some US states.
29:40Economists warn
29:41crude may rise
29:42to $200
29:43if war prolongs.
29:45Higher oil prices
29:46to result
29:47in higher food prices.
29:50The disruption
29:52in global economy
29:53has forced
29:53the United States
29:55to change tactics
29:56midway through the war.
29:58According to
29:59Western media,
30:00the Trump administration
30:01has formally sent Iran
30:02a 15-point ceasefire plan
30:05via Pakistan.
30:06The US proposal
30:07seeks major concessions
30:09from Iran
30:09and opening the
30:11Strait of Hormuz
30:12as free maritime zone
30:13is one of the conditions.
30:16They did something yesterday
30:17that was amazing, actually.
30:19They gave us a present
30:21and the present
30:22and the present
30:23arrived today.
30:24It was a very big present
30:26worth a tremendous
30:27amount of money
30:28and I'm not going to tell you
30:30what that present is,
30:31but it was a very
30:32significant prize.
30:37Nuclear-related?
30:38No, it wasn't
30:39nuclear-related.
30:40It was oil
30:41and gas-related
30:42and it was a very nice
30:43thing they did,
30:44but what it showed me
30:45is that we're dealing
30:46with the right people.
30:48Tehran is yet
30:49to bite the bullet.
30:50In a direct message,
30:52Iran told the
30:53United Nations
30:54Security Council
30:55and the International
30:56Maritime Organization
30:57that non-hostile vessels
30:59may transit
31:00the Strait of Hormuz
31:01only if they coordinate
31:03with Iranian authorities,
31:05according to Reuters.
31:06Iran added that
31:07vessels, equipment
31:08and any assets
31:09belonging to the US
31:11or Israel
31:12as well as
31:12other participants
31:13in the aggression
31:14do not qualify
31:15for innocent
31:16or non-hostile passage.
31:19Iran is making
31:20it clear
31:20that only ships
31:21with the regime's
31:22nod can pass
31:24through the strait.
31:26Meanwhile,
31:27Indian LPG carriers
31:28Pine Gas
31:29and Jas Vasant
31:30have crossed
31:31the Strait of Hormuz
31:32and are reaching
31:33India by 26th
31:34of this month.
31:36With energy concerns
31:37deepening with
31:38each passing day,
31:39will the world
31:40step in to mediate
31:41and bring this conflict
31:42to an end for good?
31:44Bureau Report,
31:46India Today.
31:48So why and how
31:50has the Strait of Hormuz
31:51become central now
31:53to any conflict resolution?
31:55Joining me now
31:56is a special guest,
31:57Eddie Fishman,
31:59author of Choke Points,
32:00American Power
32:01in the Age of Economic Warfare,
32:03also senior fellow
32:05at the Center for
32:06Following Relations
32:06in New York.
32:07Appreciate,
32:08Eddie,
32:08you're joining me
32:09here on the show today
32:11because your book
32:11is extremely
32:12appropriately titled,
32:14Strait of Hormuz
32:15has become
32:16a kind of choke point
32:17in this asymmetrical war
32:20between Iran
32:21and Israel
32:21and the United States.
32:23Do you believe
32:24that is now central
32:25to any solution
32:27and why so?
32:29Yes, it is.
32:31So,
32:32geographic choke points
32:33have always been central
32:35to how countries
32:36can beat with each other
32:36and the Strait of Hormuz
32:37is the world's
32:38most important
32:39maritime choke point.
32:41Before this war started,
32:42two in every ten barrels
32:43of oil
32:44and two in every ten
32:45cargos of liquefied
32:47natural gas
32:47went through
32:48that choke point
32:49on a daily basis.
32:50The Trump administration
32:51entered this war
32:53with vacillating aims.
32:55Sometimes they talked
32:55about regime change,
32:57other times they talked
32:58about denuclearization
32:59or maybe just getting rid
33:00of Iran's missile programs.
33:02Well, now,
33:03given that Iran
33:03has effectively
33:04established itself
33:06as gatekeeper
33:07of the Strait of Hormuz,
33:08the Trump administration
33:09has one
33:10solitary objective
33:11and that is to
33:12reopen the Strait
33:13and get the global
33:14economy going again.
33:16So,
33:16in a sense,
33:17are you saying,
33:18therefore,
33:19that did the Trump
33:19administration
33:20possibly miscalculate,
33:22did not recognize
33:23that the Strait of Hormuz
33:24could become
33:25this chokehold
33:26by which Iran,
33:27in a way,
33:28could hold the global
33:29economy almost
33:30to ransom?
33:32I do think
33:33that the Trump administration
33:34has been surprised
33:35by the way that Iran
33:36established control
33:37over the Strait.
33:38So,
33:39I want to be clear.
33:39It was well known
33:41that the Strait
33:41could serve
33:42as this chokepoint
33:43for economic warfare.
33:44The assumption,
33:45though,
33:46was that in order
33:46to close the Strait,
33:48Iran would have to lay
33:49thousands of sea mines
33:51in the Strait
33:51to render it
33:52physically impassable.
33:54But we assumed
33:55that Iran
33:56would not do that
33:57because Iran
33:57also relies
33:58on the Strait
33:59to sell its own oil.
34:00So,
34:00it would be
34:01economically suicidal
34:02for them
34:02to put thousands
34:03of mines
34:04in the Strait of Hormuz.
34:05What Iran
34:06has accomplished,
34:07just by attacking
34:08a dozen or so ships
34:10using drones,
34:11cheap missiles,
34:12Iran has discouraged
34:14all other ships
34:15from crossing.
34:16So,
34:16they haven't actually
34:17physically blocked
34:18the Strait,
34:19but they have established
34:20a kind of
34:20psychological deterrence.
34:22And so,
34:23it's not that
34:24we're surprised
34:25that the Strait of Hormuz
34:25could be a chokepoint,
34:27but the Trump administration
34:28is surprised
34:28that Iran
34:30has been able
34:30to close the Strait
34:31for everybody else,
34:32but allow Iran's own oil
34:34to still reach the market.
34:35Which is the important point
34:36that Iran actually
34:37has possibly,
34:38and you have written
34:39about this,
34:40possibly got more
34:41sanctions relief
34:42by closing the Strait
34:45of Hormuz
34:45post the war
34:46in just a couple of weeks
34:47than it got
34:48all these years
34:49from the nuclear concessions
34:51that were being made.
34:52That,
34:52in a way,
34:53by allowing Iranian oil
34:55now to be sold
34:57to the world,
34:58Iran seems to have
34:59actually got more
35:00in the last two weeks
35:02than they possibly got
35:03during the nuclear concessions.
35:05Yes,
35:06and I think this is
35:07a very worrying incentive
35:09that we're seeing
35:10put forward
35:11for the entire
35:11global order right now
35:13because what Iran
35:13is showing
35:14is that they negotiated
35:16with the United States
35:16for many years.
35:17They provided
35:18substantial nuclear concessions
35:20in 2015
35:21in the Iran nuclear deal.
35:23And just by closing
35:25the Strait of Hormuz
35:25for a few weeks,
35:26they have gotten
35:27concessions
35:28that in some ways
35:29go beyond
35:29what they got in 2015.
35:30For instance,
35:31the Trump administration
35:32has now allowed
35:33Iran to sell oil
35:35to the United States
35:36and even use
35:37the financial system,
35:38the U.S. financial system
35:39to do so.
35:40And I think that's why
35:41you're seeing reports now
35:42that even India,
35:43which has not been
35:44buying Iranian oil
35:45for a number of years,
35:46Indian refineries
35:47have started
35:48buying Iranian oil.
35:49They've gotten
35:49the comfort to do so.
35:51And so I do think
35:51that Iran has shown
35:52why choke points
35:54are the absolute
35:55central factor
35:57in geopolitics today.
35:58And do you go along
35:59with the belief
36:00that the Tehran
36:02toll booth
36:03as it's being called,
36:04reports that Iran
36:05could be charging
36:05as much as $2 million
36:07to safely transit
36:09the Strait,
36:10similar to what
36:12Egypt has done
36:12in the past
36:13with the Suez Canal,
36:14the payment reportedly
36:16being taken
36:17in Chinese Yuan
36:18while Iran,
36:19of course,
36:20has denied the reports.
36:21Do you believe
36:22that this is in a way
36:24Iran's payback time,
36:26that they can actually
36:26use this Strait of Hormuz
36:28now to almost
36:29finance the war
36:31against very
36:32powerful adversaries?
36:34I think that's
36:35what they're trying
36:35to do.
36:36And by the way,
36:37you should coin
36:37that word,
36:38Tehran toll booth.
36:39I like that one.
36:41But yes,
36:41that is what Iran's
36:42trying to do.
36:43But I think that
36:44the United States
36:45realizes that
36:46if this war ends
36:47and Iran is effectively
36:49setting up a toll booth
36:50on the Strait of Hormuz
36:51and forcing tankers
36:53from India
36:54and other countries
36:55to pay tolls
36:56to go through,
36:57that is a humiliating
36:58defeat for the United States.
36:59So I would be very surprised
37:01if Washington walks away
37:03from this war
37:04and allows that
37:05to be the status quo
37:06going forward.
37:07So do you therefore
37:08see the end game
37:09as which many
37:10are speculating
37:11that somewhere
37:12the world community
37:13and the U.S.
37:14in particular
37:15will have to get back
37:16control from Iran
37:17over the Strait of Hormuz?
37:19Could that be really
37:20critical now
37:21to ending this war early?
37:23I do think so.
37:24Yeah, I think that
37:25if the Trump administration
37:27could back away,
37:28if they could taco,
37:30you know,
37:30basically the way
37:31they have on tariffs
37:32and sort of
37:32Taco being top
37:33always chickens out,
37:34yes.
37:35Yes, I think
37:36they would do that.
37:37The problem is
37:38if they were just
37:39to walk away,
37:40Iran would still
37:40control the Strait.
37:41So what the Trump administration
37:42needs right now,
37:43they need a plan
37:44to secure the Strait
37:46going forward.
37:46And ideally,
37:47such a plan
37:48wouldn't just involve
37:49the United States Navy.
37:50You would ideally have
37:51some sort of a
37:51multinational naval campaign.
37:53And that's why Trump
37:54has been appealing
37:55to other countries
37:56to join.
37:56I think the challenge
37:57is that the reason
37:59the Strait is closed
38:00is because the United States
38:01and Israel started
38:02this war against Iran.
38:04And so, understandably,
38:05you haven't had
38:05many countries
38:06volunteering
38:07to join a multinational
38:08naval campaign
38:09in the Strait of Hormuz
38:10that could be very risky.
38:13You know,
38:13looking forward,
38:14though,
38:16Mr. Fishman,
38:16does this Hormuz
38:18precedent indicate
38:19that the future
38:20of economic warfare
38:21will increasingly rely
38:23on these chokepoint denials
38:25rather than broad
38:26financial sanctions?
38:27That it is that,
38:30that countries,
38:31much smaller countries,
38:33will hold greater
38:34economic leverage,
38:35which they will exploit
38:37during warfare.
38:38That's the message
38:39that's come out
38:40of this war so far.
38:42I think that the message
38:43is that the world economy
38:45does rely on
38:47a small number
38:48of physical
38:48and economic chokepoints,
38:50including maritime chokepoints
38:52like the Strait of Hormuz
38:53and the Bosphorus,
38:55financial chokepoints
38:56like the U.S. financial system,
38:58supply chain chokepoints
38:59like Chinese rare earth minerals.
39:01These are the fulcrums
39:03of global power today.
39:05Some of them
39:06are held by great powers,
39:08big countries
39:09like China
39:10and the United States.
39:10Others are held
39:12by middle powers
39:12like Iran.
39:14And I do think
39:15that increasingly
39:16these will be
39:17the central battlefields
39:19of global power
39:20in the 21st century.
39:21And if you're not
39:21learning about
39:22chokepoints today,
39:23you really cannot run
39:25a business effectively.
39:26You can't run
39:26a government effectively.
39:27It is absolutely essential.
39:29And therefore,
39:30there's a fundamental asymmetry
39:31at the moment
39:32in this war.
39:33Am I right?
39:34Iran can sustain
39:35prolonged disruption
39:36at a relatively low cost
39:38while the United States
39:39and the rest of the world
39:40is finding it
39:41more and more difficult
39:42to sustain
39:43high energy prices.
39:45And that's really
39:46what this war
39:47has shown us
39:48again in the last
39:49couple of weeks.
39:50That's right.
39:51And I think that
39:52in any type
39:53of economic war,
39:54and of course,
39:56separate from
39:56a military campaign,
39:58it's not just about
39:59which side
40:00can impose
40:00the steepest hit
40:01to the other side's GDP.
40:03It's about
40:04which side
40:05has the greater capacity
40:06to endure
40:07that hit.
40:08And it could be
40:09that if you have
40:10higher pain tolerance,
40:12even if you have
40:12weaker weapons,
40:13you might actually
40:13be able to outlast
40:14a bigger country
40:15like China
40:16or the United States.
40:17And so I agree
40:18with you that
40:19Iran has shown
40:20that they have
40:21a little bit
40:21higher pain tolerance
40:22so far
40:23than the United States
40:24in this war.
40:25But I will stress
40:26that we are still
40:27potentially in the early
40:28innings of this contest.
40:29So do you believe
40:31in conclusion
40:31that we could see
40:34potentially
40:34if this deal
40:36is actually
40:37to go through
40:37between Iran
40:38and the United States,
40:39the Strait of Hormuz
40:40will be central to it
40:42and will the Iranians
40:43in your view
40:44be willing to give up
40:45as I called it
40:46the Tehran toll post?
40:49Look,
40:50I think it really depends
40:51on the constellation
40:53of power in Tehran.
40:54We don't have
40:55great visibility
40:56in terms of
40:57who's running
40:57the government, right?
40:58Ostensibly,
40:59Moshtaba
40:59Khamenei,
41:00the son of the
41:01late Supreme Leader
41:02is in charge
41:03but we haven't seen him
41:05in weeks.
41:06So we're not exactly sure
41:07who's calling the shots.
41:08I think that
41:09if whoever is emerging
41:11as the power center
41:13in Tehran
41:14assesses
41:15that their survival
41:16depends on
41:17creating some sort
41:19of an international accord
41:20around the Strait of Hormuz,
41:21maybe that's possible.
41:22But I think right now
41:23the powers in Iran
41:25think that they're winning.
41:26They think that they have
41:27the United States
41:28on the run.
41:28They can see that
41:29Trump is sort of
41:30searching for the exits.
41:31And so I think right now
41:32they're in the mindset
41:33of pushing for advantage
41:34instead of trying
41:35to negotiate.
41:36Let's leave it at that,
41:38Eddie Fishman.
41:39As I said,
41:40your book
41:40very appropriately titled
41:42Choke Points,
41:43American Power
41:44in the Age of Economic Warfare.
41:47Thank you very much
41:48for joining me
41:49on the show tonight.
41:50It's my pleasure.
41:53Okay, let's look at
41:55those costs of war
41:56because at the end
41:57it's the people
41:58who suffer.
41:59And through this week
42:00we are bringing you stories
42:01of the costs of war
42:02on Indian citizens.
42:04Our story today
42:04comes from factories
42:05in Jaipur
42:06that are coming
42:07to a grinding halt
42:08as rising crude oil prices
42:10and a severe shortage
42:11of commercial gas
42:12is hitting industry's heart.
42:14Units manufacturing,
42:16pipes, cables,
42:17and ceramics
42:17are struggling
42:18to stay operational.
42:20Workers idle,
42:21cost soaring
42:22and critical processes
42:23disrupted.
42:25Here's tonight's
42:26costs of war report.
42:30Whoa!
42:38Battery is coming
42:39to a grinding halt.
42:41A twin blow
42:42of expensive crude oil
42:44and non-availability
42:45of commercial gas
42:46has pushed many units
42:48to the brink.
42:49In Jaipur's
42:50Vishwakarma industrial area
42:51manufacturing units
42:53for pipes and cables
42:54are struggling
42:54to stay operational.
42:58The rise in crude oil prices
42:59due to the war
43:00involving Iran
43:01has extremely adversely
43:03affected
43:03scores of industries
43:05in the country
43:06including in Jaipur.
43:08We are right now
43:08in Vishwakarma industrial area
43:10and you can see
43:10this particular industry
43:12which is
43:13into manufacturing
43:15of pipes,
43:16cables,
43:16for infrastructural
43:17activities
43:18has fitnessed
43:19a large-scale scaling
43:21down of activities
43:22because of
43:23unavailability
43:25of raw materials
43:26including
43:26commercial gas
43:27which was being used
43:29for various activities
43:30for various activities.
43:59processes like galvanization
44:00and fabrication
44:01have slowed dramatically
44:03with several assembly lines
44:05now at near standstill.
44:26In Bagroo Rico industrial area
44:28factories like this one
44:30are at a standstill.
44:32For ceramic industries
44:34first hit by tariff hikes
44:36by Donald Trump
44:37the West Asia war
44:38has come
44:39as another root shock.
44:42We have been
44:42in the past 10 days
44:43we have not got gas
44:44and we have
44:46not got gas
44:46because of
44:46not got gas
44:46because of
44:47we have
44:48the entire company
44:49which is
44:50in the 40
44:51area
44:51in the 40
45:05Thank you very much.
45:32With industries calling out policy gaps and warning of a collapsing supply chain,
45:38the economic cost of a distant war is now being felt on the ground in Rajasthan.
45:44With Dev Ankur Vadhaban and Sharad Kumar in Jaipur, Bureau Report, India Today.
45:51Okay, let's turn to our other focus today. The Transgender Persons Amendment Bill was passed today by Parliament.
45:58This despite widespread protests mounting criticism from transgender and civil liberty groups.
46:04Members of the transgender community said this is not reform, but a rollback of identity and dignity.
46:10At the core of the outrage are sweeping changes that dismantle the notion of self-identity and replace it with
46:17mandatory medical certificates to prove you are a transgender.
46:23Introducing screening involving medical boards before they are recognized as such.
46:29Who qualifies as a transgender is narrowed down, removing, as I said, of identities also, including genderqueer.
46:38The bill mandating reporting of gender-affirming surgeries and proposing stricter penalties,
46:45which critics say criminalizes the law and critics calling it unconstitutional, regressive and violating privacy.
46:53But what really is the reality of these laws?
46:57Let's just listen in first to the debate in Parliament.
47:01The court has clearly categorized and said the meeting was to be attended by eight members appointed by the court.
47:11Neither of the seven secretaries to the union government appointed as ex-officio members to the panel by the court
47:20have attended the meeting.
47:23You don't attend the meeting.
47:26Did the center constitute any kind of consultation or discussion with the citizens of this country who are known as
47:37transgenders?
47:39This is the law of the government.
47:41We want to live with transgenders.
47:43We want to live with transgenders.
47:45They also get brothers and sisters who get the rest of the people who get the rest of the people.
47:48In this area, the government has now adorned the earth.
47:50And the world has increased in many countries.
47:54This is a part of our mission of the work of the work of the government.
47:56The government of the government will be able to give the needs of the needs of the government,
48:00which are in a long period of time,
48:02so that the government will be able to be able to be able to remain in the direction of the
48:05government of the government.
48:08joining me now is ragvi she's an advocate delhi high court also a transgender activist
48:14appreciate your joining us ragvi tell us why do you believe that this bill is fundamentally
48:19unconstitutional uh thanks a lot rajdi for having me uh today at the outset i'll be very clear and
48:28in no uncertain terms i want to say that this bill this amendment is not a reform it is erasure
48:34it
48:35is exclusion and it is violence and let me tell you why because this bill is rolling back on the
48:43rights of the transgender persons which were given to us by the nalsa judgment and then thereafter by
48:50the 2019 act now the definition uh itself which uh was taken from the nalsa judgment is now being
48:59narrowed down to exclude a large number of people and identities which includes me also which
49:09includes a lot of other identities for example trans men for example gender queer people for
49:15example non-binary people these identities have nowhere to go now how do you explain explain to us
49:23when you say you are also excluded now so now the definition the proposed definition that we have
49:29it has only three identities the first identity that they talk about are the socio-cultural identities
49:38now socio-cultural identities they list out four identities uh one is hijra then you have kinner then
49:45you have aravani then you have jokta outside these socio-cultural identities which i'm also not a part of
49:54everyone else is excluded second is persons with intersex variations and third which is absurd but is
50:02persons who on whom the trans identity was imposed i don't know who these people are i don't know what
50:09the basis for such an introduction within the definition is now when you only limit it to three
50:17categories uh a whole lot of us don't fall in any of those categories so what you are telling me
50:24is
50:25that if i join a socio-cultural identity only then i'll be covered by the ambit of this act so
50:33i have
50:34nowhere to go so there's narrowing of identities which you're saying deprives someone like you of the
50:39expressing her identity number two i presume is the notion of privacy that to uh that to prove your
50:45identity you have to go through an entire medical board examination you're saying there should be
50:50self-identity self-declaration am i correct exactly and this is what was held by the nalsa which affirmed a
50:59trans person's right absolute right to self-identify right to self-determination of one's gender identity
51:07now the very the very section that deals with it is uh sought to be omitted deleted
51:15with this people like me even for us medical procedure also so i'll give you one example there
51:21are a lot of people people like me there are trans men there are non-binary people a whole lot
51:25of
51:26people who have gone through medical procedures now the thing is that even with the medical procedures
51:31we are not a part of the definition so are you telling me that today i look in a certain
51:38way
51:38my documents reflect a certain identity for example i'll give you a very small example
51:44a person a decided to medically transition they transitioned they took hormones they went through
51:51surgery now their documents which usually changing your documents takes a lot of time you have to run
51:57from one department to another now their now their uh documents still reflect their dead name and their
52:05earlier gender now the situation is that where do we go do we live with this this kind of discrepancy
52:13that you uh have put us into where our documents reflect something else and we appear as something else do
52:20the people and the government and the policy makers realize the kind of impact it will have
52:26on us when we go out uh to look for jobs to access health care to even use transport so
52:34without realizing the consequences without any consultation as you are aware there is a national
52:40council for transgender persons the the members of that council were not consulted two of them as we speak
52:48have resigned then you have a high-powered panel committee which was made by the supreme court
52:55the members of that committee which also includes retired justice asha menon they wrote to the prime minister
53:02saying uh they wrote to the minister of social justice also asking for withdrawal
53:07of this bill now the government claims that they consulted who are these people that they consulted they did not
53:14consult us they did not consult a committee they did not consult members of the national council who did they
53:20they they they they consult okay ragmi i'm going to leave it there clearly you've raised valid issues issues of
53:26identity issues of privacy issues of the lack of consultation that has taken place and presumably to you one yes
53:34very important point is criminalization that is the most important point the law is worded and phrased in a manner
53:42that if my family supports me if my friends support me if a social activist or an NGO
53:49supports me supports me this uh this the section 18 now can be used and weaponized to put them behind
53:57the bar by using the terms like allurement undue influence and caution
54:03okay i'm going to leave it there as i said this is an issue which should have again required greater
54:09consultation with the real stakeholders this has been a problem in the past whether it's been with farmers or student
54:15communities but the bill has been passed
54:17we'll wait and see whether the likes of ragmi presumably will challenge it in a court of law and then
54:23we'll be back
54:24presumably to square one let me leave it there thanks for watching you stay well stay safe good night shubratri
54:31jayhin namashka
54:33it
54:33i
54:33i
54:33i
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