- 1 week ago
Jing Gao grew up in Sichuan, bounced through Canada, landed in Shanghai, and revolutionized the hot sauce aisle at Walmart. Her brand, Fly By Jing, went from a Kickstarter she was terrified to launch to a 10x business overnight thanks to a New York Times article she didn't even know she was being interviewed for. Along the way, she ran underground supper clubs, trained under one of China's top chefs, and made a convincing argument that chili crisp goes on vanilla ice cream.
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00:00In the very early days, it was really just like, you know, I love this chili sauce that I've grown
00:04up with and I just want more people to taste it. And then eventually it was like, huh, we're
00:08actually, you know, invigorating the ethnic aisle of the grocery store. It was like kind of a
00:13controversial aisle, right? Because every single culture was pushed into one and like, it didn't
00:18seem like there was any excitement. That Asian aisle or the global aisle has become the hotspot
00:23of a grocery store because of brands like ours and also many others that have come in since we
00:29launched together. It's kind of like rising tides. We're lifting all boats.
00:37Hey everyone, welcome to How Success Happens. I'm Dan Bova, writer and editor at entrepreneur.com.
00:44And today we've got a very spicy episode for you. Jing Gao is the founder and CEO of Fly by
00:51Jing,
00:52a line of sauces and noodles inspired by her hometown in China that absolutely blew up on
00:58Amazon. And I've got a steaming bowl of it right here. Uh, and I can tell you that it smells
01:08delicious. It's making my eyes water just a little bit, not going to lie. Uh, but I can't
01:13wait to try it. Welcome Jing. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Um, what, which flavor noodles do you
01:20have there? Is it the sweet and spicy or the chili crisp? I went with the chili crisp. Nice. Is
01:27this
01:27going to, uh, what, what, what should I expect? What, what heat level should I expect here? Um,
01:33I would say it's like a medium heat level. It's not, you know, blow your, you know, taste buds out
01:42of the
01:42water type of, um, uh, spice, but it's also, you know, it's, it's got a little heat, but I think
01:48the more important thing that it gives you is the deep, the depth of flavor, you know, the complexity.
01:55Yeah. I mean, I'm getting a little bit of the heat, you know, after, but, um, wow. Yeah. It's
02:01really delicious. Um, thank you. It's like you said, it's got that, uh, very, very rich flavor,
02:07but I'll spare everyone watching me, uh, eat on camera. Uh, we'll, we'll get back to that when the
02:14interview is over, but, um, I want to know all about this and how it came about, but when you
02:19are calculating something like how hot should this be, how do you do that? How do you gauge what is
02:25good for your taste buds versus mine versus somebody else? Yeah. I mean, taste is such a subjective
02:31thing, but I think the way that I've approached product development, um, throughout my whole journey,
02:36and I used to be a chef before this, I had a restaurant in Shanghai, um, is, is really just
02:40like to tailor it to my own tastes. You know, I think that's been the best guiding force of like,
02:46you know, something that feels really personal, um, and real and authentic to myself typically
02:52tends to translate well to others. Um, and you know, the other thing is like, I'm from Sichuan.
02:58Sichuan is a region in China known for its super spicy cuisine, but, um, but even that is like
03:04sometimes characterized, like it's, it's actually known, uh, it's actually much more balanced and
03:10complex than people give it credit for. Right. And so I wanted to, um, have that shine through
03:15the flavors of our food rather than just pure heat or, or anything else. I wanted to show like,
03:21you know, just, um, yeah, how, how all around delicious, um, citron flavors can be.
03:27So you didn't start off, uh, in the food businesses, am I right? You were, you were
03:32actually in tech. Um, so can you talk to us a little bit about that decision to get into the
03:38food business? And also was that a nerve wracking career decision to say, I'm going to go this way?
03:44I was born in Sichuan, but we moved around to many countries across Europe and eventually we stayed in
03:51Canada. And, um, I went, you know, down this kind of typical immigrant, uh, child path of like going
03:58to college and like, you know, parents were like, okay, now you need to find a good job. And I
04:02went
04:02to business school. And so when you're in business school, the only options you really think you have
04:06for your future are investment banking, management consulting. And in my case, the third option was,
04:12uh, uh, brand management at, um, uh, large CPG like PNG. So that's kind of what I started with.
04:18Um, eventually, um, I think, you know, this around this time, uh, BlackBerry, um, was, it was, uh,
04:26you know, big in the tech world is before iPhones became, you know, dethroned it. And, um, it's a
04:31Canadian company. So being in Canada had those, um, kind of had that front seat. And so, um, I had
04:37this
04:37amazing opportunity to take a job with them in Asia and, um, through that and, uh, you know, other roles
04:46in tech after BlackBerry, I ended up in China where, um, you know, for the very first time in my
04:54kind of adult life, I started to reconnect with my heritage. So even though I was born there, I felt
04:59very disconnected from it and food became this unexpected way for me to find that connection,
05:06to kind of thread the needle, um, and, you know, reconnect with my family and, and my sense of
05:13identity and, um, and expression as well. So, um, it started out really, you know, innocuous. I was
05:21just like exploring the food scene in China and learning about this 5,000 year culinary heritage
05:28that was so, uh, really misunderstood, I think globally. Um, and it was just fun. I was exploring
05:35a lot. I was eating everything. And, um, eventually I started realizing, you know, there was so much
05:40that was misrepresented about Chinese food abroad, you know, what I was experiencing the, um, incredible
05:47quality of, you know, ingredients, the, um, depth of this, this, um, this history and all the different
05:56regional cuisines. It was so, uh, wonderful and so rich, um, and yet nobody knew about it. And there
06:02was all kinds of, you know, misconceptions around Chinese food and the way that it evolved in the West.
06:08Uh, it became this like, you know, desire or a mission for me to try to dispel some of that
06:15and
06:15kind of help to rewrite a narrative about Chinese cuisine on the global stage. So I started writing
06:20about it initially. I was, you know, writing for food magazines and, you know, had a blog and
06:26eventually started taking celebrity chefs around China when they would come and film their TV shows
06:31and, you know, developed kind of, uh, more of a niche in that area. Um, and, you know, one thing
06:37led to
06:38another and I decided, you know, maybe let me try to, um, do my own thing in this world. And
06:44so I quit
06:44my job and eventually opened a restaurant in Shanghai. That's amazing. Cause you know, I think
06:51there's nine out of 10 people who asked, do you love food? Yes, I love food. I love eating. I
06:56love
06:57the whole experience of it. You know, some of us think, Oh, I'm really good at this thing. I should,
07:02I could even sell this. It's so good, but you, you did sell it, which like, what do you think?
07:08Uh, I know you, you explained, uh, the, the emotional connection to it, but what, what do you
07:13think gave you that confidence to say, like, I'm going to actually do this?
07:19Hmm. I think it was definitely a gradual process. It didn't start out on day one where I just was
07:25like,
07:25I have this vision for a, you know, global sauce brand that I'm going to move to the U S
07:29and launch.
07:30Um, it was definitely a step-by-step process and each step sort of revealed the path ahead,
07:35um, and the possibilities ahead. And, you know, in the very beginning, I actually, um, started
07:41fly by Jing as an underground supper club. So I was, um, I had trained under this, an incredible chef
07:48in Sichuan, who is one of the top chefs in China. The food that I was serving to my guests
07:52at my
07:53supper clubs, um, people's eyes would widen and they would just, you know, you could tell that
07:58their palate was awakened and, you know, they had never tasted these before, but you could tell that
08:03their lives will never be the same, you know, after they experienced, um, this, this, um, you know,
08:10expansion of their, of their palate. And, um, I think it was through that, it was just literally
08:16through, um, hundreds of these events and hundreds of these, you know, diners that I could see their
08:23instant reaction. And I realized these flavors that I grew up with, that I was enamored with
08:27were actually universal. Like there's really, even people who from all walks of life, from every part
08:33of the world who had never had these flavors, never even heard of Sichuan, they all loved it,
08:38um, and connected to these flavors. So I was like, I think there's something, I think there's something
08:43here. I mean, I think the great thing about food is, as you said, you put it in front of
08:48someone,
08:49someone could fake like, Oh, yum. Great. And then they push it aside. But you could like right now,
08:55I'm using every ounce of my energy to not shove this all into my mouth. So you could tell instantly
09:03to people like this or they don't. And, and I'm sure you did, which leads me to, I want to
09:08ask you
09:08about this kind of, um, legendary, uh, Kickstarter campaign. Uh, when you launched, uh, you got 3000,
09:17one of the 3000 people to, to, to come aboard, how did you go about fostering that community? Was it,
09:25was it those supper clubs or was it, was it other things where you were able to reach out to
09:30so many
09:30people? Yeah, I think the Kickstarter was really the, the impetus that kind of got everything started.
09:38I, um, delayed doing it for a really long time because that was, you know, really putting it out
09:43there, right? Like, you know, I, um, had gone to Expo West, this trade show in California had seen that
09:50there was really a lack of, you know, a gap in the market for high quality. I'm listening, but I
09:54just,
09:54I can't, I got to take another. Oh, go. Yeah. Go for it. Um, I, I could see there was
10:00a gap right in
10:01the market and, and, um, and I knew that what I had could, could address it. Um, but there was
10:08still
10:08a ton of fear around, you know, being so vulnerable, you know, to put like kind of your, your blood,
10:16sweat and tears out on the internet for everyone to see and to judge and to decide whether they want
10:21to give you their $25, you know, to help make this happen or not. Um, and, um, it took me,
10:27you know,
10:28quite, quite some time to kind of get over that and, um, and, uh, work up that courage. So, uh,
10:33I studied
10:34the Kickstarter campaigns there were, you know, for every really successful one, there's probably
10:39like hundreds, if not thousands of ones that didn't do well. Right. And, um, and so, you know,
10:45learned a lot of tips and tricks and like, you know, how to kind of, um, get the word out
10:50there,
10:51you know, just creating a Kickstarter campaign isn't enough. And, um, I actually reached out to
10:57a couple of journalists who I knew had written about similar topics in the past and just cold emailed
11:04them and, um, was really, uh, you know, kind of gave them the pitch and both of them ended up
11:10writing about the Kickstarter, which, you know, kind of helped to push it to make, to make it go viral.
11:15And so within the first day we were fully funded and we ended up, um, you know, uh, exceeding our
11:22goal by several thousand percent. And, um, and that was an amazing, um, initial, you know, customer base.
11:31I think, you know, uh, they always say you need your first 1000 customers, right. To,
11:36to prove this out. And so for me, that was like, that was the Kickstarter campaign.
11:40So that's so great. And it's something that I've heard, uh, in variations of that, but,
11:46you know, the storytelling behind the product is, is so important to, to getting buy-in from,
11:53or people even to try it. And, you know, I've got some of the packaging that you have here.
12:00Um, and, uh, you've got your story, you know, your face on there. You've, you, you, you, you,
12:07you are talking to your customers directly in the packaging. Talk to us about the design and
12:13why you think it's been successful.
12:15Interestingly enough, we we've gone through several different branding iterations since we
12:20launched. Um, when we first launched the Kickstarter, you'll see in the initial like video
12:24and Kickstarter, it looked very, very different. And it's been this really, um, interesting
12:29learning process as we've grown, as we've shown up in different and new channels, um, how the,
12:36um, you know, the first point of interaction between a customer and your product, um, is
12:41very different when they're seeing it on shelf at like a Walmart versus when they, you know,
12:46in the early days when we were just a D2C only brand. So, um, I would say that, um, you
12:52know,
12:53we've always been though about kind of bold, um, uh, you know, bold branding, uh, branding that you,
13:01you know, probably didn't expect to see from a Chinese food brand up until then Chinese food
13:07brands all lived within Chinatowns or, you know, a ranch 99 or, you know, um, just, you wouldn't see
13:13them in the mainstream kind of shelves in grocery stores. My main goal in the very early days was
13:19really just to like make people do a double take and, you know, kind of stop them in their tracks
13:24and maybe even have them question themselves on why they expected a Chinese chili sauce to look
13:28different. Um, and, you know, eventually, um, and we had like, uh, uh, a time when our packaging was
13:36super maximalist, you know, I was really inspired by, we had a very rich, um, backstory as well.
13:41Right. There's a lot of, um, you know, uh, stories around, um, even my own motivation to be doing this
13:49and, um, my own search for identity and, um, you know, a sense of belonging and, um, all of that,
13:56that story, that backstory, um, we put on the jar. And then eventually as we, um, you know,
14:03evolved our channel mix and we started showing up in places like Target and Walmart and Costco,
14:09you know, for each channel, we kind of really had to think about, you know, what are people seeing
14:13when they're walking down the aisle and, um, with this small, uh, real estate on the surface of the
14:21jar and, or the noodles, you know, how do you get across your value proposition, um, in a very clear
14:27way, right. And differentiate from your competition, but also, um, you know, uh, even within your own
14:34product mix, like what's the difference between this one and the extra spicy and the extra crunchy
14:38and the sweet and spicy. So we, um, you know, we, we've iterated a lot on the packaging and each
14:44time we're learning more and, um, it's been a really interesting journey, but I think the
14:48through line of it all is like, you know, I think the packaging gets across is, um, kind
14:55of what we stand for, our bold nature, not shying away, not watering down who we are to, you know,
15:01appease, uh, someone else. And, um, and also just like the, the kind of small batch and high
15:09quality nature of our products as well really comes across.
15:13So when you talk about iterating, like what does that look like? Cause it's, it's a little
15:18different than just changing the color of something on a website. You're talking about
15:22like thousands and thousands of packages.
15:24We, um, we haven't, you know, we've done it, uh, I would say three times maybe in the,
15:31or actually probably only two times in, yeah, two times. Um, but there's been three versions,
15:36um, since the beginning. So since, uh, almost six years ago and, um, and, uh, the, you know,
15:46so some of the things I mentioned earlier, which is like, you know, now if someone, when someone
15:50was seeing us on their phones or on, uh, on their computer screen for the first time,
15:55we were able to tell a much more, you know, complex story. Whereas if they're seeing us
16:01on shelf and maybe they only have three seconds to make a choice and to understand what this
16:07is and who we are, what this is, and like why they should buy it and what they're going
16:11to do with it. Um, you know, it's a lot more complex and I think it's doubly complex in, uh,
16:16in the, in our case, because we are introducing people to something brand new. Um, I think the
16:23idea of a textured hot sauce did not exist in the mainstream consciousness before we launched
16:27live edging, right? A textured hot sauce means that you have to actually use a spoon
16:32and you can't just squeeze it out of a bottle, right? So there was like several layers of innovation
16:37on, on top of what is already mainstream that makes it difficult.
16:42You're saying we a lot. So I'm wondering if you talk a little bit about that transition from a one
16:49person operation to, as you're growing and, you know, from raising money on Kickstarter to having
16:57investors, can you talk about, was that a, a slow transition or was there something that happened
17:04that like, okay, we got to grow and we got to grow fast?
17:08Yeah. So, um, I was the only person working on it for the first, like, you know, one to two
17:14years.
17:15Um, and you know, those days it was definitely slow because I was like doing everything. And,
17:21um, also, you know, there was no budget to do advertising. And so everything had to be super
17:28organic. Um, now we launched in, uh, early 2019 and by 2020 COVID had hit. And that was an interesting
17:38moment in time because, you know, it could have gone many ways. It could have been like, wow, well,
17:45we can't import things from China anymore because of, you know, the trade relations have broken down.
17:50Or, um, in our case, what ended up happening was there seemed to be, um, more interest in what
17:57we were doing. There was a lot of controversy, right? Like people were, you know, uh, on our
18:02social medias, you know, saying all kinds of horrible things, like we don't want things from
18:06China, et cetera. Um, but at the same time, um, you know, I had, uh, the managing editor of New
18:12York
18:12Times reach out to me because he was a customer and he really enjoyed our products. And he was like,
18:17you know, how are you doing? Like, is, is this a crazy time? Cause you know, um, cause China was
18:23shut down for a bit. We didn't have production going and, um, had a conversation with him,
18:28not knowing that he was doing this article. And a couple of weeks later, he, this article came out
18:33in the Sunday Times, which just kind of blew up our business overnight. It felt, um, and that, uh,
18:41that year we ended up 10 X-ing our, our business and we were finally able to, um, hire, hire
18:48people,
18:49even pay myself. And, you know, that's when, um, the company started to kind of like, you know,
18:56have, have, uh, stronger foundations. And then the following year we were able to, um, bring on some,
19:04some investors who were able to, uh, really help us professionalize and kind of, you know, um,
19:11put better structures in place, um, with, with the company to, to help us grow into our current
19:16trajectory. So, uh, it was, it felt like, you know, that COVID period was an overnight thing,
19:23but, you know, obviously there was a lot that went into it before, but that was when everything
19:28kind of started to shift. So when you were starting out on this journey, what, what did you think the
19:35word success would mean? And what, what do you think success means now? I think, you know, I never
19:43really, I never really paused to think about it in the very beginning because it was just, everything
19:48was happening all at once. And you were just trying to stay, stay above water. Um, there was a ton
19:53of,
19:54uh, you know, and I, and I think, um, the more that we've done this, the more kind of the
20:02vision
20:02solidifies as well. Um, in the very early days, it was really just like, you know, I love this chili
20:08sauce that I've grown up with and I just want more people to taste it. And then eventually it was
20:12like,
20:13huh, like interesting. We actually are creating a category. We're actually, you know, invigorating
20:19the ethnic aisle of the grocery store that has been so stale for so long. And, you know, almost
20:26like, um, you know, it's, it's kind of, it was like kind of a controversial aisle, right? Cause every
20:31single culture was pushed into, into one. And like, it didn't seem like there was any excitement,
20:36um, or any investment there. And yet, and now, you know, what we've seen is, um,
20:43that Asian aisle or the global aisle has become the hotspot of a grocery store because of brands
20:48like ours and also many others that have come in since we launched and together, it's kind of
20:55like rising tides. We're lifting all boats. And that's been, um, really exciting to be part of
21:02that vision. That's something that I didn't foresee when I first started this. Right. And now when I go
21:07to Expo West in the early days, there was not a single brand that you could really point to that
21:12was doing, you know, modern premium Asian. And today it, the aisles seem saturated with such,
21:19such brands. Right. And it's like, you know, even these flavor profiles are even spilling over onto
21:25brands that are not ethnic brands, right? There's like Asian flavors in every single aisle of the
21:30grocery store. So, um, I think being a part of that charge to have made that impact, I think is
21:39really meaningful and is what drives us. Um, and, you know, we want to be a lasting brand. We want
21:44to
21:45be a brand that is not looked at as a niche, you know, Asian brand, but rather like an American
21:52brand,
21:53an everyday brand that lives in people's kitchens all over, um, the country. So that's our goal is
22:00really to establish that, um, foothold. So what is your, what's your kind of best advice
22:08for someone listening to this? That is a currently a one person army hoping to get this product into
22:16people's cover cupboards. What would you say is like, here's my best advice to you?
22:21I think that, um, one thing to double click on is what I said in the beginning about how many
22:28layers of,
22:28um, newness or innovation that your product has over something that's already established,
22:35right? Because when there's too many layers of newness, that just means the added complexity and
22:45amount of resources required to educate people and to market this to people. Um, and I think,
22:54you know, that's, I'm glad that it didn't stop me to, you know, in doing this because we were able
23:00to
23:00really create, um, uh, kind of, uh, you know, uh, something brand new, but it did take a lot of
23:09like what felt like pushing uphill. Right. Um, and I would urge people, you know, and I see a lot,
23:16I have a lot of founders that I mentor and advise, and I see a lot of founders doing, you
23:22know, things
23:22that are really meaningful to them. And, you know, but sometimes when the category or the product
23:29is the slice of it is too niche, it is just that much harder. Right. So I would encourage people
23:36to
23:36always think like, what is something that like, how can I take what already is out there and then add
23:43like maybe one level of innovation so that it's just easier for people to understand, accept,
23:49and not so difficult for you to make a splash without having to raise a ton of money.
23:55That's great. Great advice. Um, so we have a newsletter, a house, house success happens
24:02newsletter. Uh, and we asked subscribers, uh, if they could co-found a company with any person
24:11living or dead, who would they pick? So I'd love to hear your answer to that.
24:17If I could co-found a company with any person in history. Yes. Oh, interesting. I would probably,
24:26um, say Nikola Tesla because he was onto something with his, you know, free energy and all kinds of
24:37things that he was working on that was very controversial at the time. And I think that if,
24:43um, if we could partner today with the help of AI, like it could really change the world.
24:49Okay. Great answer. Great answer. I love that. Uh, and for anyone listening, you can get our free
24:55newsletter, uh, at info.entrepreneur.com slash HSH. All right, Jing, let's get into the big speed round.
25:05Uh, so what is a habit that you are happy to have and one that you wish you could ditch?
25:14Um, what is a habit I'm happy to have? Um, I, I, uh, I like, you know, taking walks. So
25:24that is
25:25something I think that's important for me, clearing my head and getting my steps in, um, something I'm
25:31happy to ditch. Um, I really love like soup noodles and I eat a lot of them. And so, but
25:39most
25:39of the soup noodles out there are not that good for you. So we are developing something, maybe that's
25:45better for you. That's really high quality. So stay tuned. Um, but that would probably be,
25:51but I wouldn't need to kick the habit if I have something good.
25:55Um, well, I think you just answered it, but, uh, I was curious, what is your favorite way to
26:02turn off your brain?
26:06I love meditation. Yeah. So I do that probably every day, every morning, sometimes every night. It's,
26:13it's, um, yeah, I think it's the best, uh, way to connect with your, you know, your higher
26:20subconscious, your, you know, just your creativity. Um, so clearing the brain, I think has been, uh,
26:27the best way to usher in new and creative ideas for me.
26:31That's great. And then finally, uh, say I, uh, I put a little too much of this on, uh, what
26:39I was
26:39eating. My mouth is on fire. What is the best way to extinguish a fire in your mouth? What's the,
26:47what's your preferred method? Uh, I would say ice cream. I would say, you know, have some vanilla
26:53ice cream and it actually goes really well with chili crust. So if you want to just try drizzling
26:58some on your vanilla ice cream, you can have it both, both ways. So how, what's the best way for
27:03people to follow what you're up to, like know what you're thinking about your business and, and
27:10anything? So, uh, flybyjing.com at flybyjing on socials. And then myself personally, I'm at
27:18Jing theory. So Jing, J I N G theory. And I also share a lot of like entrepreneurship, um, tips
27:25and,
27:25you know, books and resources that I'm reading and learning from that helped me as I build.
27:31So I've been sharing that on my personal socials. Excellent. Well, uh, I'm going to let you go
27:37cause you're a busy person and I want to eat these noodles before they go too cold. So
27:41thanks so much for your time. Yeah. Thank you for having me.
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