Ogni delitto, ogni attentato terroristico è una sfida allo Stato e agli uomini immediatamente impegnati nella caccia al colpevole e alle sue tracce nella scena del crimine.
Dai metodi investigativi deduttivi tradizionali – pedinamenti, documenti, testimonianze oculari - alle analisi delle impronte digitali (definite testimoni silenziose dal criminologo ottocentesco Alphonse Bertillon) alle tecniche più sofisticate: analisi dei reperti biologici, dei tabulati telefonici, hard disk, telecamere di sorveglianza, rilievi e intercettazioni, fino alla geo localizzazione e l’avveniristica Digital Forensics.
A Eco della Storia il viaggio che ripercorre l’evoluzione delle tecniche investigative attraverso il racconto dei casi di cronaca nera degli ultimi anni: dal caso Montesi del 1953, il misterioso cadavere di Wilma Montesi sulla spiaggia di Torvajanica, dovuto - secondo la prima ricostruzione ufficiale – a una sincope dovuta a un pediluvio; ai misteri della strage di piazza Fontana, a Miliano, nel 1969.
Dalla svolta alle indagini contro le Brigate Rosse partite dalle testimonianze di Patrizio Peci, raccolte dal Generale Carlo Alberto Dalla Chiesa, a quella delle indagini della strage di Capaci del 23 maggio 1992, il primo caso giudiziario italiano cui è stata applicata l’indagine del DNA in ambito forense.
E dal Caso Cogne del 2002, uno dei primi a vedere utilizzata la tecnica del BPA (Blood Pattern Analysis), il calcolo della forma degli schizzi di sangue durante il delitto, alle sempre più sofisticate analisi genetiche dietro la riapertura dei Cold Case, i casi irrisolti del passato, dal massacro del Circeo nel 1975 all’omicidio di Lidia Macchi del 1987. Fino ad arrivare ai nuovi strumenti in dotazione del ROS nella caccia ai foreign fighters, i terroristi di matrice internazionale.
Come sono cambiati gli strumenti a disposizione nella caccia al killer? Da Poirot a Montalbano, ai detective delle fiction televisive CSI o del RIS: come è cambiata la figura dell’investigatore? Quali i segreti dietro la risoluzione dei più controversi casi giudiziari?
Ospite di Gianni Riotta di questa puntata speciale il generale Giuseppe Governale, già comandante del ROS (Raggruppamento Operativo Speciale) dei Carabinieri, e attualmente Direttore della DIA, fulcro di qualsiasi indagine riguardante la criminalità organizzata ed il terrorismo interno e internazionale.
#Crime #TrueCrime #Cronaca #CronacaNera #Assassini #Killer #SerialKiller #Delitti #Misteri #Giallo #Coldcase #Delitti #Misteri #Crimine #Criminali
Dai metodi investigativi deduttivi tradizionali – pedinamenti, documenti, testimonianze oculari - alle analisi delle impronte digitali (definite testimoni silenziose dal criminologo ottocentesco Alphonse Bertillon) alle tecniche più sofisticate: analisi dei reperti biologici, dei tabulati telefonici, hard disk, telecamere di sorveglianza, rilievi e intercettazioni, fino alla geo localizzazione e l’avveniristica Digital Forensics.
A Eco della Storia il viaggio che ripercorre l’evoluzione delle tecniche investigative attraverso il racconto dei casi di cronaca nera degli ultimi anni: dal caso Montesi del 1953, il misterioso cadavere di Wilma Montesi sulla spiaggia di Torvajanica, dovuto - secondo la prima ricostruzione ufficiale – a una sincope dovuta a un pediluvio; ai misteri della strage di piazza Fontana, a Miliano, nel 1969.
Dalla svolta alle indagini contro le Brigate Rosse partite dalle testimonianze di Patrizio Peci, raccolte dal Generale Carlo Alberto Dalla Chiesa, a quella delle indagini della strage di Capaci del 23 maggio 1992, il primo caso giudiziario italiano cui è stata applicata l’indagine del DNA in ambito forense.
E dal Caso Cogne del 2002, uno dei primi a vedere utilizzata la tecnica del BPA (Blood Pattern Analysis), il calcolo della forma degli schizzi di sangue durante il delitto, alle sempre più sofisticate analisi genetiche dietro la riapertura dei Cold Case, i casi irrisolti del passato, dal massacro del Circeo nel 1975 all’omicidio di Lidia Macchi del 1987. Fino ad arrivare ai nuovi strumenti in dotazione del ROS nella caccia ai foreign fighters, i terroristi di matrice internazionale.
Come sono cambiati gli strumenti a disposizione nella caccia al killer? Da Poirot a Montalbano, ai detective delle fiction televisive CSI o del RIS: come è cambiata la figura dell’investigatore? Quali i segreti dietro la risoluzione dei più controversi casi giudiziari?
Ospite di Gianni Riotta di questa puntata speciale il generale Giuseppe Governale, già comandante del ROS (Raggruppamento Operativo Speciale) dei Carabinieri, e attualmente Direttore della DIA, fulcro di qualsiasi indagine riguardante la criminalità organizzata ed il terrorismo interno e internazionale.
#Crime #TrueCrime #Cronaca #CronacaNera #Assassini #Killer #SerialKiller #Delitti #Misteri #Giallo #Coldcase #Delitti #Misteri #Crimine #Criminali
Categoria
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ApprendimentoTrascrizione
00:06Ours was a profession at a certain point and we saw death as an act of justice.
00:11That was it, period.
00:14I didn't kill my son, I'm innocent.
00:21There were explosions this afternoon in Milan and Rome.
00:28I have nothing to regret, if I had things to regret I wouldn't regret it.
00:38The historian Carlo Ginzburg says that there is a paradigm of evidence, a way of looking at the evidence that unites the
00:45the profession of the hunter, the historian and also of those who follow detective stories,
00:50of those who seek the guilty, of men of police and justice.
00:56Welcome back to Eco della Storia and today we are going to think about how in history, in the past, in the present, we will also see in the
01:03future,
01:04whether they went hunting for the culprit, solving mysteries, major political events or crime news that
01:10they have enthralled public opinion.
01:12We are fortunate to have General Giuseppe Governale.
01:14Welcome to Eco della Storia Generale, the commander of the ROS, the special operations group, not the ROS as they say
01:23too often,
01:24of the singular ROS, if you allow me a hint of Palermo patriotism, like me, the first Palermo head of the legion of
01:40Carabinieri in Sicily.
01:41And why is the ROS important in hunting down the guilty, in hunting down criminals? What is your role?
01:49The ROS is a structure that was essentially born in the mid-70s, on an extraordinary initiative of the general
02:00of the Church,
02:01with anti-terrorism functions. Then he had the ability to modify the techniques, to leave the operational philosophy unchanged.
02:12who sees organised crime and today terrorism not as an adversary but as an enemy to be fought
02:21with great determination and great tenacity on the part of his men.
02:27General, Italy remains a country where there are fewer bloodsheds than even other advanced democracies,
02:34I'm thinking of the United States. Yet public opinion often has the impression, thanks also to the mass media,
02:41which they emphasize a lot, of course, as is right in our profession, when there are particularly serious facts,
02:48Where are we? Can you help us, before we embark on this historical journey, to focus on the present?
02:56Are we a high-crime country? Are we a peaceful country? What is Italy like today?
03:01Italy is a country with medium crime rates; everything is relative in such a complex and globalized world.
03:10Of course, there are areas of the world that have an extraordinary level of crime in negative terms.
03:21Italy remains a Western country with its virtues and its defects
03:25which concern global aspects, those of macro and criminality,
03:34but also the aspects of so-called micro-crime, the predatory one,
03:39which rightly attracts public opinion.
03:43He was the driving force behind the history of the Carabinieri, 200 years of the Carabinieri,
03:46which we also recalled here at Eco della Storia,
03:50that's a lot for a 200 year old institution,
03:54and for the publisher Mondadori, the figure of the investigator, of the policeman who carries out investigations,
04:01It has changed a lot. From your calendar we sometimes see the marshal
04:06in De Sica's old films, the marshal in the village who asks two or three questions
04:10and solves a mystery. What are your tools today?
04:14They are tools, the most important thing is always the policeman, the person,
04:21because we, like other police forces, can provide
04:25in our staff of the most advanced technologies,
04:29but if the police officer is not hungry for justice,
04:36just as the men of Totorrina were hungry for power,
04:39the conflict becomes symmetrical and even more difficult to counter.
04:44Let's see from the stories of Marshal Gigi Arnau of 1968,
04:48the old ways of the past.
04:51Oh, what's up?
04:54Another letter like the one from the day before yesterday,
04:56to the new Marshal of the Carabinieri, same handwriting.
05:01Diego?
05:08I'm glad you took my complaint seriously.
05:13Mr. Bonetto, you are a murderer,
05:15but she must not be a good truffle dog,
05:19because he can't find that witness to the crime I told him about.
05:25I want to help him and I tell him the witness,
05:28his name is King Bufo Pietro Manovale.
05:34And if he just whistles in town,
05:37everyone tells her where to find it.
05:39Signed by a friend.
05:48King Bufo Peter?
05:51Yes, exactly, the one about the fight.
05:54But until yesterday he was still in the hospital.
05:55Well, I'll go look for him, bring him here right away.
05:58She has protested several times to Deputy Brigadier Ferrero
06:02the intention to file a complaint against his friend Vito Ferri.
06:08For private violence, for things, etc., etc.
06:10Yes? I want to file a complaint against him.
06:14And how will I do it?
06:17But he didn't call me to persuade me.
06:20not to file a complaint against him, eh?
06:24Well, these are things you have to think carefully about before doing, King Bufo.
06:28Eh.
06:30I thought about it.
06:32And how did I think about it?
06:33Don't worry.
06:37No, because once the justice system is set in motion,
06:42eh, that one goes straight without stopping.
06:47And it may happen that by invoking the law against another,
06:52this other one to defend himself,
06:54let's even say the bad word to get revenge,
06:58uncover some flaw that we may have wanted to keep hidden.
07:01But are you speaking for me?
07:04Let's say I'm talking to her.
07:06Certain.
07:08Because I have no hidden problems.
07:12These are the stories of Marshal Mario Soldati
07:15with the masterful interpretation of Turiferro.
07:18How much of this way remains a little to the migrè
07:21to involve the suspect or the accused?
07:25First of all, let me say something.
07:28It is perhaps no coincidence that Soldati chooses Turiferro
07:32to play a station commander in Northern Italy,
07:36he who is from the deep south.
07:37And let's say that in the history of our country
07:40the marshal of the carabinieri,
07:42Let me say this without any self-congratulatory moment in this,
07:48but it's reality,
07:49it represented a glue,
07:53united Italy in some ways,
07:56because then they were marshals who went to visit the girl in the north
08:00and raised an almost multi-ethnic family.
08:06Multiethnic.
08:07And Marshal Arnaudi is not a marshal sui generis,
08:12he is one of the many marshals who has lived through many eras,
08:17which represented an interface between the Italians and the army.
08:24A weapon that in the end, so authoritative, so top-down,
08:31she was able to marry with the horizontality of the Italians
08:36who hardly take pleasure in dealing with the authorities.
08:44And where everything is horizontal.
08:45This figure of Marshal Arnaudi is an important figure
08:50because it puts values at the centre, as we saw in the video,
08:55of an ability to penetrate the innermost being,
08:59in the psychology of the suspect, of the one.
09:03Does this still work?
09:05It must work.
09:06Look, woe betide you if technological tools,
09:09which are essential today to carry out investigations,
09:13they then went to replace what is the impact,
09:16the ability to compare, to listen to each other
09:20in certain circumstances, especially the more complex ones.
09:23In recent weeks, distant cases have returned to the front pages.
09:27A girl close to Catholic movements who had been killed in the 70s,
09:32returns to the front page.
09:35Instead, we follow with great attention events in which drugs,
09:39extreme sex is accompanied these days with the sacrifice of an innocent,
09:46of a person who had nothing to do with all these stories.
09:50And how can we recognize the criminal?
09:53She was saying while we had this broadcast
09:58that potentially anyone can become a criminal.
10:01Yes, never, as I mean, abandon yourself to pre-established patterns.
10:08Look, it comes to mind, if I may say so,
10:13a poem I learned in second grade, I think,
10:19but what has become of it then, I confess that I go and reread it every now and then,
10:23of two stanzas, do not be surprised,
10:27Pasquoli says don't admire, but don't be amazed
10:29if in a heart not low, here I turn to you as proof,
10:33you suddenly feel a sting, that is, under every stone the scorpion.
10:37How can you not be surprised if a heart is devoted to evil,
10:40every now and then you hear a good cry, a holy heartbeat,
10:44each cypress bears its nest.
10:46This element which may seem trivial
10:50it's very, very indicative of how things should be approached,
10:54especially by investigators.
10:55How to find the scorpion that can be hidden behind every rock
10:59or behind every soul?
11:01Let's look at the distant theories of a scholar called Cesare Lombroso,
11:06there is still a beautiful museum dedicated to him in Turin,
11:10and that instead he was convinced that recognizing the scorpion of crime
11:14was simple enough.
11:19It is due to a small anomaly, present only in the skull
11:22of criminally mentally ill people,
11:23that Cesare Lombroso in November 1872
11:27comes to the conclusion that the one with occipital cavity,
11:30not present in so-called normal individuals,
11:33let it be for him proof that there is an atavistic physical predisposition
11:37transmitted from remote ancestors
11:39to deviant, criminal and even psychiatric behaviors.
11:46Cesare Lombroso made this discovery
11:48while he was performing the autopsy
11:50on the corpse of the Calabrian brigand Giuseppe Vilella,
11:53whom he had met and visited in prison
11:55and he died at the age of 70.
12:00Lombroso, who at 30 was an associate professor of medicine
12:03at the University of Pavia,
12:04he later became the director of the Pesalo mental asylum,
12:07professor of forensic medicine in Turin
12:08and professor of psychiatry,
12:10Thus he began the studies that would make him famous
12:12all over the world,
12:13as the inventor of criminal anthropology,
12:16the founder of criminological disciplines,
12:19highly sophisticated today
12:21and with very high levels of success.
12:23Before him, no one had ever attempted it.
12:26to explain scientifically
12:27the behavior of murderous criminals.
12:30Here's what he writes.
12:32The criminal presents physical anomalies,
12:35atavistic or degenerative,
12:37of the skull, of the face, of the ears,
12:39nose, lips, chin, jaws,
12:42which make it a biological regress
12:44towards a primitive stage of evolution.
12:47The criminal man is a primitive creature,
12:50not fully evolved,
12:52much more similar to animals
12:53that to human beings,
12:55which can be identified
12:56based on physical characteristics
12:58similar to animals.
13:00He is forced to act as a criminal
13:02because its nature
13:04he can only force him to do so.
13:10Cesare Lombroso thus founded
13:11criminal anthropology as a science
13:13and even though his theories,
13:15which he then reworked and deepened over the years,
13:17were confirmed,
13:18denied, criticized,
13:20he is recognized among others
13:22the great merit at world level
13:24to have established that body and mind
13:26they cannot be divided,
13:28but they are one and the same
13:29that with the environment
13:31then determine the behavior
13:32of a healthy or deviant individual.
13:37Government General,
13:38these are the theories
13:39then very, very popular
13:42by Cesare Lombroso.
13:44Our editorial team with Fabrizio Marini,
13:46Laria D'Assi,
13:46Giorgio Giammattei,
13:47Francesco Ciraffici,
13:49Silvia Ruta and Roberta Polino
13:50he says, he put us on the lineup
13:52this theme, the monster.
13:54Often in newspaper headlines,
13:56especially some time ago,
13:58sometimes even now,
14:00the criminal monster,
14:01the terrorist monster,
14:02but monsters exist
14:04or are they humans?
14:05They are human beings
14:07that take on monster-like appearance.
14:11Cesare Lombroso
14:12he is a scientist
14:14whose scientific content
14:17it should not be trivialized at all
14:19because it represented
14:21the first moment,
14:22as it was said later in the video,
14:24of serious scientific approach
14:26on the matter.
14:27It's clear what to say
14:28how much does it affect
14:30the biological aspect
14:32or how much the environment affects,
14:34so the company
14:35It's not simple at all.
14:38He had aimed
14:40on the biological aspect,
14:42on this intracranial fossa
14:44in the middle part
14:46and few know
14:48that Lombroso
14:50gave
14:51a provision
14:54testamentary
14:55to be subjected
14:56himself
14:57to an autopsy investigation
14:58and the curious thing
15:00that the investigation led to
15:02to recognize
15:03in his brain
15:04traits
15:04of crime
15:06important.
15:09If you haven't visited it
15:10visit the museum
15:12by Lombroso
15:12in Turin
15:13on the long side then
15:14it really is
15:15extraordinary
15:16what he has.
15:17General,
15:18of criminals
15:19that she met
15:21which one remembers
15:22which hit
15:23his
15:23more imagination,
15:25what impressed you the most?
15:26Look,
15:28Surely
15:29I haven't met him
15:30but
15:30what
15:32what struck me the most
15:33was
15:34Angelo Izzo.
15:36Why?
15:36Why associate
15:39at times
15:39of apparent
15:40normality
15:41Also
15:43they recognize each other
15:45aspects
15:46particularly
15:47disturbing
15:48of his
15:48personality.
15:49And maybe
15:51Izzo
15:52remember
15:53bound
15:54to the case
15:54of the massacre
15:55of Circeo
15:56in 1975
15:57September 29th
15:591975
15:59seditious girls
16:02an abandoned one
16:03in the trunk
16:05in the trunk
16:06of the machine
16:07Certainly
16:09when the newspapers
16:09they use the word
16:10monster
16:11that seems like it
16:12a personality
16:12criminal
16:13very hard
16:14very hardened
16:15very hard
16:16very hardened
16:17that we have to
16:18also understand
16:20that suffers
16:22Also
16:22sometimes
16:24of the environment
16:25where it is located
16:26certain maniacs
16:27sexual
16:28for example
16:29they were
16:29themselves
16:30victim
16:31in the context
16:32family
16:32or
16:33that
16:34immediately
16:34more enlarged
16:36also of
16:37annoying
16:38and abuses
16:39it was an environment
16:40of boys
16:41for good
16:41of Rome
16:42Well
16:43so-called
16:43Parioli
16:44tied
16:44to the environments
16:45At that time
16:45in those years
16:47of the extreme
16:47right
16:48and instead
16:48they became
16:49protagonists
16:49of a fact
16:50cruel
16:51Of
16:51news
16:52black
16:52the crime
16:52of Circeo
16:53a person
16:54broken down
16:55with the head
16:56and they always say
16:57this one here
16:57Madonna
16:58resists too much
16:59when is it that he dies
17:06September 29
17:071975
17:08three young people
17:10of Rome
17:10Well
17:10Angelo Izzo
17:11Gianni Guido
17:12and Andrea Ghira
17:13they lure into a trap
17:14in a villa
17:15of Circeo
17:16the very young
17:17Donatella
17:17Colasanti
17:18and Rosaria
17:19Lopez
17:20telling them
17:21which would be
17:22gone
17:22all together
17:23at a party
17:26they ask us
17:27to make love
17:28we refuse
17:28they insist
17:29and they propose to us
17:30one million each
17:31we refuse
17:31once again
17:32at this point
17:33Gianni takes it out
17:34the gun
17:34and says
17:34we are from the gang
17:36of the people of Marseille
17:36so it's better for you
17:37obey
17:38when will it arrive
17:39Jacques Berenguer
17:39you will have no escape
17:40he's a tough guy
17:41they separate us
17:41me in a bathroom
17:42Rosaria in another
17:43hell begins
17:45towards evening
17:45Jacques arrives
17:46Jacques actually
17:47it was Andrea Ghira
17:48Rosaria Lopez
17:49he dies
17:50drowned in a tub
17:51Donatella
17:52Colasanti
17:53he is saved
17:53pretending to be dead
17:55they put me
17:56in the payphone
17:57of the machine
17:57Rosaria wasn't there yet
17:59when they brought her
18:00I heard
18:01before closing
18:01the key-operated hood
18:02one who said
18:03look how well they sleep
18:04these two deaths
18:09Angelo Izzo
18:10and Gianni Guido
18:11they are stopped
18:12arrested
18:12and condemned
18:13to life imprisonment
18:14in the first degree
18:15in 1976
18:17same penalty
18:18for Andrea Ghira
18:19but that
18:20he manages to make you lose
18:21right away
18:22his tracks
18:25Ghira
18:25remains at large
18:27until his
18:27presumed death
18:28happened in Meliglia
18:30a Spanish enclave
18:31in Morocco
18:32where it was
18:33refugee
18:33and enlisted
18:34in the Foreign Legion
18:37a truth
18:39whose families
18:40of the victims
18:40they never believed
18:42I don't believe it
18:44because I don't believe
18:45that a boy
18:46of the family
18:47wealthy
18:48grown up
18:49in well-being
18:50could have gone
18:51to the Foreign Legion
18:55to reopen the case
18:57after 40 years
18:58he is the judge of Rome
18:59who welcomed
19:00the instance
19:00of the Lopez family
19:01to conduct new investigations
19:03on the body
19:04buried in Meliglia
19:05at a distance
19:0610 years old
19:07from discovery
19:08is exhumed
19:09for the second time
19:10the body
19:11and it is carried out
19:12again
19:13DNA testing
19:14to understand
19:15once and for all
19:16if that pile
19:17of bones
19:18in the cemetery
19:18from Meliglia
19:19whether it belongs or not
19:20to the butcher
19:22of Circeo
19:22DNA
19:24of the body
19:25found in Meliglia
19:26corresponds
19:26only to that
19:27by Maria Cecilia
19:28Angelini Rota
19:29Andrea Ghira's mother
19:31it has not been verified
19:33the correspondence
19:34with the paternal one
19:35let's not forget
19:38that the director
19:39of the institute
19:40where they were made
19:41these analyses
19:42she was the aunt
19:43by Andrea Ghira
19:44Boys
19:45conflict of interest
19:47we want to call it
19:47Andrea Ghira
19:49is he really dead?
19:51and if the body
19:52from Meliglia
19:53it was that one
19:54of a cousin
19:55and he
19:55was still there
19:57fugitive
19:58science
19:59must be
20:00exact
20:01you have to tell me
20:02this is so
20:04point
20:05but with certainty
20:07of 99.9%
20:09his Andrea Ghira
20:11there is no
20:15a thought came to her
20:17while we were watching
20:18the video
20:19on the massacre
20:20of Circeo
20:21general
20:21Well yes
20:22why are they found
20:23of the elements
20:24of reference
20:25looking
20:25precisely
20:27Angelo Izzo
20:28on one side
20:29and now
20:30these
20:32authors
20:32as
20:35Ghira
20:36or how
20:37the other involved
20:39the other defendant
20:40as if they were
20:41of the faces
20:41d'Angelo
20:42they are not Lombrosian
20:43they are not Lombrosian
20:44they are not Lombrosian
20:45good boy faces
20:46they don't seem like it
20:46good boy faces
20:48Yes
20:48where the story
20:50of the facts
20:51of Black News
20:53becomes
20:53truly history
20:55with the S
20:56capital
20:56and when the story
20:58of the Black Chronicle
20:59crosses history
21:00of politics
21:01of the economy
21:02big business
21:03general
21:04there it is
21:04great work
21:05for you
21:06for you
21:08Carabinieri
21:09the critic
21:10and German writer
21:11Hans Magnus
21:12Enxessberger
21:12he wrote
21:13an important essay
21:14on politics
21:15and crime
21:15saying
21:16when the Black Chronicle
21:17enters politics
21:19immediately
21:19everything becomes difficult
21:21is that so?
21:23Yes
21:23but we are technicians
21:24we operators
21:25of the police
21:26we are technicians
21:27and we have to
21:28remind us
21:29day after day
21:31the necessity
21:33to be
21:34scientific
21:35in the attitude
21:37preserve
21:38Also
21:39impartiality
21:40of attitudes
21:41under certain circumstances
21:43but he tells us
21:44the story
21:44of the investigations
21:46of the last century
21:47in our country
21:50highlighted
21:51Certainly
21:52an involvement
21:54which probably
21:56he went beyond
21:57and there are
21:58the consequences
21:59that have been seen
22:00under certain circumstances
22:01When we look
22:01the story
22:02how heavy it was
22:04in her opinion
22:05in the 50s
22:0660
22:0670
22:07in our country
22:07even the will
22:09on the part of the power
22:10central politics
22:11why certain yellows
22:12remained covered
22:13and they didn't arrive
22:14from the window
22:15Look
22:15seeing things
22:17after many years
22:18you are brought
22:19to take on
22:21let's say this
22:22hypothesis
22:22but I think
22:24that many times
22:25the circumstances
22:26they follow one another
22:27over time
22:28and are the object
22:29not of a painting
22:31of reference
22:32strategic
22:33but of
22:33precisely
22:34of choices
22:35which followed one another
22:36which then
22:36many times
22:37also dictated
22:38from superficiality
22:40or from
22:40not necessary
22:42Attention
22:42Why
22:42he who goes to see
22:44things
22:45after a while
22:46it is taking shape
22:47a scenario
22:49of reference
22:50Where
22:50everyone
22:51the acts
22:52they are all perfect
22:53and when they are not perfect
22:54they can be justified
22:56with malice
22:57with serious guilt
22:58with which
22:59wish
23:00to mislead
23:01the government general
23:02he just told you something
23:03on which you would do well
23:05to reflect
23:05that is, not to see
23:06a conspiracy
23:07in the future
23:09in the present
23:09behind every mistake
23:11of the past
23:12behind every omission
23:14often there is no
23:15a hidden direction
23:17but we Italians
23:17we tend instead
23:18Always
23:19often general
23:20to do this
23:20this error
23:22and we create cases
23:23one of the first cases
23:24in republican history
23:25it was that
23:26of the young woman
23:27Wilma Montesi
23:28who was found dead
23:29on the beaches
23:30of Lazio
23:31April 9th
23:32of 1953
23:33at first
23:34the case was relegated
23:35in the pages
23:36of Colnacanera
23:37a humble girl
23:38conditions
23:39that ends
23:40drowned
23:41in one day
23:43in spring
23:44instead then
23:45very quietly
23:45it became a political case
23:47why was it spoken
23:48of a party
23:48in which he participated
23:50among others
23:51the future musician
23:52Piero Piccioni
23:53who was the son
23:54of an important leader
23:55of Christian democracy
23:57the party
23:58who was driving then
23:59with a large majority
24:00our country
24:02and Attilio Piccioni
24:04come out
24:05a case
24:05which went on the front page
24:06this time
24:07in all the newspapers
24:08from all over the world
24:09and which precisely
24:10the writer
24:11Enzesberger
24:12he will also dedicate
24:13an essay
24:14to say that
24:15politics
24:15and crime
24:16they often merge
24:19according to investigators
24:21the girl
24:22that afternoon
24:23leaving home
24:24salts
24:24presumably
24:25on a bus
24:26of line B
24:27that from away
24:28cutting
24:29he led her
24:29at the station
24:30Saint Paul
24:33always according to
24:34the first reconstruction
24:35of the investigators
24:36Vilma
24:37purchase
24:37a ticket
24:38for Castelfusano
24:39That
24:39at that time
24:41it was the last station
24:42of the railway
24:43Rome Ostia
24:45that morning
24:46Sister Vanda
24:47he had heard it
24:48to hum
24:49at home
24:49and follow
24:50radio broadcasts
24:51that is, she was calm
24:53Nothing
24:54it was foreshadowing
24:55what would have happened
24:58Vilma
24:59she had gone
24:59at one point
25:00of the free beach
25:01where she had been
25:02sometimes
25:03with parents
25:03in previous years
25:05in that month
25:06of the year
25:07and at that time
25:07the beach
25:08it is usually deserted
25:10Vilma
25:11he set off
25:11so towards the shoreline
25:13we remind you
25:14which should have
25:15take a foot bath
25:16to get treatment
25:17an eczema
25:18to a heel
25:20while the girl
25:22he was located
25:22with your feet in the water
25:23I will always support
25:24the investigators
25:25he fell suddenly
25:26illness
25:27or for the presence
25:28of a hole
25:29on the sandy bottom
25:30and drowned
25:31the girl
25:33was added
25:33in those days
25:34was in a phase
25:35postmenstrual
25:36and he couldn't swim
25:39always according to the police
25:41the wave motion
25:42and the currents
25:43they would have dragged
25:44Vilma's body
25:45from the coast of Ostia
25:47to that of Torvajanica
25:48from north to south
25:50a distance
25:51of about 20 kilometers
25:53that the corpse
25:54covered in 36 hours
25:55at speed
25:56of over
25:57half a kilometer
25:58the time
25:58almost as if it were
26:00on a treadmill
26:01and not in a sea
26:02which among other things
26:03he wasn't very agitated
26:05and where they did not exist
26:06almost for nothing
26:07currents
26:08the investigators
26:09they supported
26:09that the accident
26:10it had happened
26:11between 6.15pm
26:12and 6.30pm
26:13of the same one
26:14April 9, 53
26:16they came to this
26:17strange conclusion
26:18stating
26:20it turns out like this
26:20from the documents
26:21that Vilma
26:22as usual
26:23should have
26:24to go home
26:25no later than 8pm
26:26on the basis
26:28of the investigation
26:28conducted by the police
26:29the prosecutor
26:30of the Republic of Rome
26:32who took care of
26:32of the case
26:33requests
26:34the archiving
26:35of the acts
26:35and December 31st
26:37of that same year
26:38in accordance
26:39of the request
26:40the examining magistrate
26:41he declared
26:42the unpromotable
26:43of the criminal prosecution
26:44Vilma Montesi
26:46she was dead
26:46by asphyxiation
26:47from drowning
26:48following Illness
26:49not in the area
26:50of Torvajanica
26:51where it was found
26:52the corpse
26:53but on the beach
26:55of Ostia
26:55about 20 km away
26:57away
26:58the story
26:59of the young woman
27:00drowned
27:01he didn't do it
27:01at the start
27:02great news
27:03and the newspapers
27:04they relegated her
27:05in the pages
27:05local news
27:07a girl
27:08treating
27:09of modest condition
27:10one that still
27:11it wasn't much
27:12leaving home
27:13or had done it
27:14only
27:14in company
27:15of a policeman
27:16Calabrian
27:17of whom she was engaged
27:18who dressed well
27:19that much
27:20which allowed her
27:21the means
27:21available
27:23of the family
27:23which led
27:25an orderly life
27:26and ordinary
27:27an ordinary girl
27:28and what ever
27:29could have
27:30imagine
27:31that after death
27:32his name
27:33would have appeared
27:34in box characters
27:35in the newspapers
27:36from all over the world
27:39general
27:40naturally
27:41we saw
27:42Now
27:42the case
27:43distant
27:44now in time
27:44from the
27:45Wilma Montesi
27:46where however
27:48Today
27:48crime
27:50your
27:51investigations
27:52fear
27:53of public opinion
27:54and the interest
27:55of politics
27:56they merge
27:56and in the phenomenon
27:57of terrorism
27:59we met
28:00in the 70s
28:00a terrorism
28:01let's say
28:02domestic
28:03Italian
28:04that was coming
28:04from ours
28:05political culture
28:06today we are facing
28:07to terrorism
28:07international
28:08how is it possible
28:09investigate
28:10a phenomenon
28:11that are born
28:12from countries
28:12from cultures
28:13from traditions
28:14very far away
28:15from us
28:15it's very difficult
28:18in truth
28:18what
28:20it was done
28:21with reference
28:23to terrorism
28:23of matrix
28:25ideological
28:26which brought
28:28to change
28:29the rhythm
28:30the church
28:31he said
28:32it must end
28:32the era
28:33in which
28:33the journalists
28:34the carabinieri
28:35the magistrates
28:36they go to the cinema
28:37and they have to watch out for each other
28:38backwards
28:38to see
28:39if there is a terrorist
28:40from now on
28:41will have to be
28:42the terrorist
28:43who goes to the cinema
28:43and he has to watch out
28:45backwards
28:45to see
28:45if there is a policeman
28:46from there they were born
28:47those techniques
28:50own
28:50that they see
28:52in the attack
28:54to the enemy
28:54to be defeated
28:56so the capacity
28:57of infiltration
28:58it was this ability
28:59of infiltration
28:59which then was
29:00the keystone
29:01of victory
29:02of the State
29:03towards
29:04of terrorism
29:04it's much more difficult
29:06to obtain
29:07When
29:07the enemy
29:09he is a terrorist
29:11international
29:12with a matrix
29:14religious
29:14and cultural
29:15completely different
29:17which often comes
29:18from villages
29:18or from community
29:19who know each other
29:20for generations
29:22infiltrate here
29:22a stranger
29:23it's very very difficult
29:25but
29:25it is necessary
29:27develop
29:28Anyway
29:28of the techniques
29:29monitoring
29:30that allow us
29:31to prevent
29:32at least
29:34actions
29:35let's think about it
29:36on this
29:36at the moment in which
29:38the way to infiltrate
29:40it becomes difficult
29:41because they are cultures
29:42very closed
29:43as you can see
29:43talk about culture
29:44it is often important
29:46also to understand
29:47terrorist incidents
29:47of canera crown
29:48it is possible
29:50Instead
29:50a monitoring
29:52electronic
29:53we often talk about it
29:54war
29:54of drones
29:55what are the techniques
29:56that she sees
29:57as most promising
29:58in this sense
29:59that you can tell us about
30:00publicly
30:01today it is not possible
30:02regardless
30:03from an investigation
30:04of a telematic nature
30:06Why
30:07it's clear
30:10That
30:11in a world
30:12like that
30:13globalized
30:14we move
30:15Surely
30:17exploiting
30:18the technological means
30:19and then
30:22it is necessary
30:23This
30:23develop
30:24the ROS
30:25has developed
30:26over time
30:27a capacity
30:28important
30:28it's clear though
30:30that you need
30:30to make it act
30:31of the structures
30:33operational
30:34of the teams
30:35joint
30:36that is, integrated
30:37Where
30:37the operational aspect
30:39and the appearance
30:40of the assessment
30:41technological
30:42let them be united
30:43telematics
30:45computer science
30:45computers
30:46listen
30:47what happens
30:48through
30:49our
30:50machines
30:51our cell phones
30:52it's one of the streets
30:53to fight
30:53international terrorism
30:55he just reminded us
30:56the government general
30:57but terrorism
30:58in Italy
30:59has another date
31:00a date that is
31:01so sculpted
31:02the general
31:02in our
31:04memory
31:04December 12th
31:05of 1969
31:06the bomb
31:08in Piazza Fontana
31:09with 17 deaths
31:11in Milan
31:12and almost
31:12100 injured
31:14which is a date
31:14that all Italians
31:15of my generation
31:16they don't need
31:17to watch the script
31:18to remember
31:20there were explosions
31:21in the afternoon
31:22in Milan
31:23and in Rome
31:23the most serious
31:25it happened in Milan
31:26in the central hall
31:27of the headquarters
31:28of the National Bank
31:29of Agriculture
31:30for the explosion
31:3114 people
31:33they died
31:37It's 4:37 pm
31:39of December 12th
31:4017 people die
31:4288 injured
31:46another bomb
31:47unexploded
31:48is found
31:49in the headquarters
31:50of the Commercial Bank
31:51Italian
31:51always in Milan
31:53there is a third one
31:55which explodes in Rome
31:55at 4.55pm
31:57to the National Bank
31:59of Work
31:59in Via Veneto
32:01and a fourth
32:02and a fifth
32:03always in Rome
32:04they explode
32:05in the area
32:06of the Altar
32:06of the Fatherland
32:07in Piazza Venezia
32:08one below
32:10a flagpole
32:11standard-bearer
32:11the other
32:12in front of the entrance
32:13of the Museum
32:14of the Risorgimento
32:15four injured
32:17the scan
32:18storm
32:19it's very fast
32:20between the explosion
32:21of the first device
32:22and the last one
32:23they only pass by
32:2453 minutes
32:28Mariano Rumori
32:30the president
32:30of the Council
32:31summon immediately
32:33the Council
32:33of the Ministers
32:34is aimed at Italians
32:36a television appeal
32:37a murder
32:38that throws
32:39in mourning
32:40families
32:40and it shocks
32:42the conscience
32:43of the Italians
32:54democracy
32:55holds
32:56but the degree
32:57on the horizon
32:57is taking shape
32:58the threat
32:59of difficult years
33:00Years of Lead
33:04At that time
33:04government general
33:06it was much discussed
33:07the decision
33:08which in part
33:09he was also born
33:09from the general
33:10of the Carabinieri
33:10and from the Church
33:11to trust
33:12to the repentants
33:13that is, to infiltrate
33:14the organizations
33:15terrorist
33:16at the same time
33:17to give discounts
33:18of punishment
33:19to the repentants
33:20that they revealed
33:21the plots
33:22criminals
33:23we can say
33:24but that
33:24that choice
33:25of the State
33:26is the one that in the end
33:27really defeats
33:29terrorism
33:29in Italy
33:30yes because
33:31it was a choice
33:33which allowed
33:35to attack
33:36without reservations
33:37the enemy
33:39When
33:40I remember
33:43the funerals
33:44of the marshal
33:45they marry
33:46who dies
33:48during the capture
33:50of one of the terrorists
33:51of every good
33:54the streets
33:55next to the church
33:56were written
33:58with the writing
33:59nor with the State
34:00nor with the Red Brigades
34:02Instead
34:03the carabinieri
34:05the police forces
34:06the judiciary
34:07they didn't have
34:08no doubt
34:09which side to be on
34:11and with blood
34:12they paid dearly
34:14this operational line
34:17the idea
34:18philosophy
34:19of the welcome
34:20some ideas
34:20because this is a piece
34:21let's say important
34:22of Italian history
34:23recent
34:24the idea of
34:25we are neither with the State
34:26nor with terrorists
34:27aside
34:28an anonymous one
34:29hand
34:30who wrote it
34:30on a wall
34:31which we are just reminded of
34:32but
34:33and important intellectuals
34:35like the writer
34:35Leonardo Sciascia
34:36for example
34:37somehow
34:38they did it
34:39they made it their own
34:41why was there so much mistrust
34:43towards the State
34:43towards the authorities
34:44legitimate
34:46of democracy
34:47but I think
34:48That
34:48this distrust
34:50at the time
34:51let's talk about terrorism
34:52of the Red Brigades
34:54is
34:54more than anything else
34:55would unite
34:56sectors of intelligence
34:58of that time
34:59That
35:00that
35:01culture
35:02radical
35:04That
35:04he saw
35:06to profile oneself
35:07an alternative
35:08let's remember
35:09that we are
35:09immediately after
35:101968
35:11General Government
35:13the historian
35:14Orsini
35:15he recovered
35:16of history
35:17of terrorism
35:18Italian
35:18the testimonies
35:19harder
35:20Meaning what
35:20he often tells us
35:22in memory
35:23terrorism
35:24both right-wing
35:25that of the left
35:26especially with
35:26Now
35:27many
35:27they are old
35:28they got out of jail
35:29they wrote
35:29their memories
35:30and they become almost
35:31of the Robin Hoods
35:32a bit
35:34Like this
35:34romantics
35:35Instead
35:36in practice
35:37daily
35:37there is a strong
35:38cruelty
35:39and when
35:40they come out
35:41the repentants
35:42we have just
35:42this story
35:43terrible
35:44from the
35:45ferocity
35:46daily
35:46of the practice
35:47terrorist
35:48Yes
35:48we see it
35:51but on the other hand
35:52we respect
35:53even at a distance
35:54of many years
35:55this one of theirs
35:56ideology
35:57because it was
35:58in the end
35:58an ideology
35:59of young people
36:00which express
36:01at the time
36:02a dynamism
36:05that they have
36:06a vision
36:07alternative
36:08of the State
36:09and when
36:10they recognize
36:11that the State
36:12it cannot be destroyed
36:13why it breaks down
36:15themselves
36:15they have
36:16a deep
36:17crisis of conscience
36:18and then
36:19that repentance
36:21that phenomenon
36:22That
36:23then determines
36:24a phrase
36:25ugly
36:26whose
36:26he repents
36:27why is it given
36:28the idea
36:28of the infamous
36:29for the mafia
36:31who repents
36:32in this
36:34circumstance
36:35he goes towards
36:36to a crisis
36:37psychological
36:38and of conscience
36:39very strong
36:40We see
36:40the story
36:42by Patrizio Peci
36:43which was
36:44one of the first
36:44that maybe
36:44to which I consider it
36:45the first repentant
36:46of the Red Brigades
36:47and who will pay
36:49personally
36:50with death
36:51of the brother
36:51Roberto Peci
36:52which had been
36:53a supporter
36:54and that instead
36:54he is killed
36:55barbarously
36:56from terrorists
36:57to punish
36:58Patrizio Peci
36:59the boss
37:00of the column
37:01Turin
37:01of the BR
37:02it was taken
37:03under arrest
37:03in great secrecy
37:04in Turin
37:04February 21st
37:06together with
37:07Rocco Michaletto
37:08from men
37:09of the general
37:09Charles Albert
37:10from the Church
37:11the arrest
37:12it's a help
37:14it's a help
37:15to realize
37:16of reality
37:16in some ways
37:17it's a help
37:18to realize
37:19of impotence
37:19of mistakes
37:20that they were
37:21committing
37:22but above all
37:23there was the problem
37:24there was the problem
37:26to have arrested
37:27of the companions
37:27that they had
37:28fought with me
37:29arrive
37:30to arrive right away
37:31to this decision
37:32dramatic
37:33to send
37:33in jail
37:33their companions
37:35Meaning what
37:35to realize
37:36than leave them out
37:37because then it was this
37:38the hazelnut
37:38leave them out
37:39it meant
37:40do not let anyone commit
37:41other murders
37:42they will say later
37:43some judges
37:43before those revelations
37:45we were at year zero
37:46in knowledge
37:47of organizations
37:48clandestine
37:50the interrogations
37:51of Peci
37:51they transform
37:52for his
37:53former teammates
37:54in one
37:54overwhelming
37:55avalanche
37:55of accusations
37:57iron memory
37:59precise up to
37:59to pedantry
38:00he provides
38:01to the investigators
38:02an imposing one
38:03amount of news
38:04which will lead
38:04to the discovery
38:05of dozens of dens
38:06and to the arrest
38:07of a large number
38:08of militants
38:08and supporters
38:14the capture
38:15by Patrizio Peci
38:16presents
38:16some dark side
38:17the Red Brigades
38:19a year later
38:19they will kidnap
38:20brother Roberto
38:21artisan
38:22to San Benedetto
38:23of the Tronto
38:23married
38:24with his wife
38:25pending
38:25of a son
38:26will be subjected
38:27to a sort
38:28of process
38:29and condemned
38:30to death
38:37in the flyer
38:38number 5
38:39there is a concept
38:41underlying
38:41which opens the flyer
38:43the only relationship
38:45of the revolution
38:47with the traitors
38:49it is the annihilation
38:50what do you think?
38:51of this concept
38:52the concept
38:54it could also
38:55to be right
38:55I think so much
38:57that needs to be analyzed
38:57the word traitor
39:00what do you mean?
39:02Meaning what
39:02it is not for me
39:03a traitor
39:10based on
39:12at the trial
39:15owner
39:16to which it has been
39:16subjected
39:18based on
39:19to the elements
39:21emerged
39:22during
39:22the interrogations
39:24based on
39:25to the analysis
39:26of these elements
39:27done
39:29the Russian brigades
39:30they conclude
39:31the process
39:32Roberto Peci
39:34condemning him
39:35to death
39:36for treason
39:48we are today
39:49get used to it
39:49to see
39:50the videos
39:51of the executions
39:52of terrorism
39:53international
39:53of ISIS
39:54who beheads
39:55or even
39:56burn alive
39:57some time
39:58his hostages
40:00this instead
40:01it's the video
40:01of a conviction
40:02of a process
40:03in Italy
40:04maybe we're there
40:05forget the story
40:06with great speed
40:07probably
40:08Yes
40:09and in that circumstance
40:10it was the anti-state
40:12which was processing
40:13an infamous person
40:15for them
40:17a moment
40:18particularly
40:19painful
40:20and then
40:20Also
40:21from the moment
40:22high value
40:23symbolic
40:24Why
40:27Roberto Peci
40:28he is killed
40:2955 days
40:31After
40:31his kidnapping
40:33the same days
40:34of the kidnapping
40:34Moor
40:35with 11 shots
40:36of gun
40:37machine gun
40:38the same shots
40:40which they drew
40:41the body
40:42of the president
40:43of Christian democracy
40:44so there is a kind
40:45of macabre assonance
40:48Yes
40:48it's a macabre assonance
40:49and as you see
40:50we are in presence
40:52of elements
40:54strongly
40:54ideologized
40:55that they had
40:56a vision
40:57alternative
40:58of the State
40:59a vision
41:00on their part too
41:02without himself
41:03and without buts
41:03Today
41:04the major emergencies
41:06aside
41:07the crimes
41:08the crime news
41:09isolated
41:10the major emergencies
41:11in Italy
41:12I'm always
41:12crime
41:13organized
41:14who governs
41:15with an iron hand
41:16large bands
41:17of the economy
41:18from the south
41:19of the country
41:20finance often
41:21it infiltrates
41:21in finance
41:22to the north
41:22and terrorism
41:23international
41:24with always the shadow
41:26of a possible
41:27attack
41:27in our country
41:28mentioned before
41:29to the means
41:30of investigation
41:32technological
41:33the new ones
41:34how
41:35do you use them?
41:35We use them
41:36in a manner
41:38preventive
41:40lately
41:41we have
41:41carried out
41:43an activity
41:43anti-terrorism
41:44who saw
41:46a
41:47right
41:48osmosis
41:49between the departments
41:50from the
41:51we call
41:52of the territorial
41:53and those of the ROS
41:54because we have
41:55given order
41:56that every time
41:57he is arrested
41:59a foreign citizen
42:00with profiles
42:02with indexes
42:03detectors
42:03of interest
42:07to seize
42:08the devices
42:09technological
42:10which we then study
42:12in a manner
42:13in-depth
42:14with our operators
42:15and reveal
42:16then in the end
42:17a world
42:19that is
42:20within
42:20that dark web
42:22which gives
42:23some indications
42:25important
42:26under the profile
42:26operating
42:27for those who listen to us
42:28dark web
42:28it's the background
42:30the slums
42:31of the internet
42:32where you can't reach
42:34with the normal ones
42:34search engines
42:35you have to enter it
42:36somehow
42:37with other accesses
42:39even against the mafia
42:40the State
42:41he employed
42:42these new tools
42:44telematics
42:44computer scientists
42:45he committed
42:47in its time
42:47Instead
42:48the use
42:49the use
42:50of repentants
42:51Rina
42:52Savior
42:53was
42:54captured
42:55from the police
42:57this morning
42:58in Palermo
43:00of him
43:01Cosca's brother
43:02Luciano Ligio
43:03he would have said
43:03Rina would like to give
43:05bigger bites
43:06of his mouth
43:06Anyway
43:07he gave many
43:08the boss
43:09of the bosses
43:10he put
43:10his footprint
43:11above all
43:11the most serious
43:12mafia crimes
43:13completed in Palermo
43:14in the last twenty years
43:15only at the maxi trial
43:17they were contested
43:18120 murders
43:19the Court of Cassation
43:21one year ago
43:22he condemned him
43:22to life imprisonment
43:23the sentence
43:24so
43:25it's final
43:25and Rina
43:26will never be able to again
43:27to return free
43:28it's the victory
43:30of the theorem
43:30of Bushitta
43:31the boss
43:32of the leaders
43:32he claims
43:33the first
43:34of the great repentants
43:34of the mafia
43:35decide
43:36of life
43:36and of death
43:37of subjects
43:38and enemies
43:38the opponents
43:39by the dozens
43:40he swept them away
43:41with lead
43:42TNT
43:43or the white lupara
43:45shocking
43:45the sequence
43:46of crimes
43:46and massacres
43:48Boris Giuliano
43:49Emanuele Basile
43:51Cesare Terranova
43:52Charles Albert
43:53from the Church
43:54Rocco Pinnici
43:55Gaetano Costa
43:56Ninni Cassarà
43:57Joseph Montana
43:58Pier Santi Mattarella
44:00Michael Reina
44:01Pio Latorre
44:02it has always been
44:04Riina
44:05according to the charges
44:05of the repentants
44:06to decide the massacres
44:08to eliminate
44:08Giovanni Falcone
44:09and Paolo Borsellino
44:29a little bit in which
44:31aiscotto
44:31he was a Punic
44:32they dug
44:32a Punic
44:34But what's in there? Is the atomic bomb in there?
44:40I took a short cut.
45:03Let's get down.
45:09I have nothing to regret.
45:12If I had things to regret, I wouldn't regret them.
45:23Italian democracy has managed to defeat terrorism
45:26but has been fighting for many years with success
45:29but also with chess against organized crime.
45:32Why?
45:33Oh yes, because in that circumstance
45:36there was a unanimous response from the state and civil society.
45:42In the fight against organised crime
45:47only since the mid-1980s
45:50we record this dynamism and comparison.
45:55Because in 1860 it was said
45:59the mafia does not exist and people tend to say today
46:03in northern Italy
46:05the mafia does not exist when the 'ndrangheta
46:09instead it pervades the economies of those territories.
46:12because organized crime is not just a simple crime, however powerful it may be
46:21but it has emerged as an alternative form of the State,
46:29a parasitic state that uses the legal state to further its own interests.
46:35Now, General, in appreciating your presence here in front of such complicated cases
46:40let me play devil's advocate.
46:42Often public opinion or the state man
46:45he has the impression that today the investigators, the carabinieri, the police, the financial police
46:48or you have a wiretap, that is, or there is a phone call that you recorded
46:53or there is DNA evidence, that is, you have a piece of DNA that assures you of the culprit
47:01or from the old one-to-one interrogation there is no longer a confession,
47:06it is no longer there in all these cases that we have seen, Cogna, Garlasco, Perugia,
47:11the defendants always say they are innocent, the judiciary alternates sentences,
47:17is that so, why does no one confess anymore after being interrogated by Megre, by the commissioner?
47:23It's not true that no one confesses anymore after being interrogated like Megre.
47:31because this type of activity doesn't get the spotlight, probably for this reason.
47:37It is clear that in the most important cases the mass media are turned on
47:42and so at that point they are particularly complex
47:49and therefore it is necessary to support this type of investigation with objective ones that nail you.
47:59On January 30, 2002, in a cartoon in Montreux, a hamlet of Cogna,
48:05even if the crime has gone down in history under the name of Cogna,
48:08and Anna Maria Franzoni's son dies, the mother will be accused and the case is still being discussed today in
48:15Italy.
48:18Anna Maria Franzoni remembers that morning like this.
48:22My hand pressing on the handle.
48:25The door opens.
48:26I go in, take off my jacket, take off my shoes and put on my slippers.
48:30The television in the living room is playing in the background.
48:32Samuele doesn't cry.
48:34He doesn't call me like he usually does when he doesn't see me right away
48:37so I guess he's sleeping.
48:39The shower.
48:40Maybe I can wash myself if he's asleep, I think.
48:42I arrive in the bedroom.
48:44And if it gets dark.
48:45My gaze falls on the bed where Samuele is.
48:48The duvet completely covers the bed.
48:51But at the same time I hear a strange breathing.
48:54I take the duvet and lift it up, throwing it on the bed.
48:57A jolt.
48:58I scream his name.
48:59Samuel.
49:00But my voice is drowning.
49:02Take my son, he imitated me blood, he absolute me.
49:04Well, no.
49:05It doesn't pick me up.
49:06It doesn't pick me up.
49:08It doesn't pick me up.
49:08I need the address.
49:09It doesn't pick me up.
49:10It doesn't pick me up.
49:13Anna Maria sheds tears, many tears, as she recounts those terrible moments.
49:18The pain, however, is immediately accompanied by suspicion.
49:21The accusing finger is pointed at her, but although investigations are being conducted in every direction,
49:25the hypothesis that someone else struck within a few minutes,
49:28a stranger to the family, it is not convincing.
49:31The house remains empty for only eight minutes.
49:33Too few for a stranger to come in, wearing pajamas, and strike furiously
49:38and gets dressed and disappears.
49:39And the accusation against one of her neighbors also costs Franzoni a conviction for slander.
49:44to one year and four months in the Cognebisse trial.
49:47It will be the calculation of the times with the stains on the pajamas, the clogs and the lack of alibis
49:52to frame Anna Maria.
49:53Samuele's mother is subjected to a psychiatric evaluation. She knows prison.
49:58declared capable of understanding and willing at the time of the facts, while public attention is growing.
50:04900 days after the murder, on July 19, 2004, a court names the killer.
50:10and Anna Maria Franzoni is sentenced to 30 years.
50:13I want to shout it as long as I live, I didn't kill my son, I am innocent.
50:21The Turin judges delivered their verdict on April 27, 2007.
50:25In the courtroom, after 9 hours of deliberation, the word guilty resounds once again.
50:54On May 21, 2008, after approximately 3 and a half hours of deliberation, the Court of Cassation confirmed
50:59the sentence of 16 years of imprisonment.
51:01Even for the Supreme Court, Anna Maria, killed with rational lucidity.
51:05No altered state of consciousness, Franzoni fussed, while hitting Samuele, the woman
51:10for the judges, he is fully accountable.
51:15Why does this psychological element help us understand?
51:18Franzoni has always denied her responsibilities.
51:20In the Perugia edifice, the young Meredis, Amanda and Raffaele who were accused, sentenced,
51:26then acquitted, re-convicted, they always denied.
51:30Alberto Agarlasco denied it.
51:32In another famous trial, this time in the United States, O.J. Simpson, the champion
51:35of football, accused of killing his wife, has always denied.
51:39Perhaps at a certain point one assumes the psychology of self-denial.
51:43It wasn't me and they really don't think they were...
51:45Can you help us understand the criminal mind?
51:47It's not easy.
51:50It's not easy.
51:51It is clear that in these circumstances there is certainly, at least in some of them, a possibility
52:00also concrete of the self-denying aspect, which outlines a type of attitude towards
52:08of the investigating bodies.
52:09And for this reason all technical checks must be absolutely
52:15scrupulous and fortunately technology today allows us to provide important answers.
52:22In the case of Cogn, what paid off was the implementation of investigation methods linked to the detection
52:34of the dynamism of blood traces.
52:36That is, it was studied through a procedure called blood analysis pattern analysis,
52:43that is, the analysis of the blood traces, the scene of the event was studied and it was possible
52:49to perceive, to understand how the dynamics could have occurred.
52:54General, in an operation in the J-Web project that led to the arrest
52:59of 16 Kurdish citizens and a Kosovar, coordinated by her and international terrorism,
53:04the idea that our country could also be the scene and victim of an attack has returned
53:10international.
53:11Let's watch this service together and then help us understand.
53:15At least six departures of Jain fighters to Syria, organized by this group.
53:24Departures took place from the Swiss cell, from Finland.
53:30These are documented by Alfino.
53:33They were preparing for the Holy War by keeping in touch on the web from 11 countries in Europe and
53:38Middle East: 16 Kurdish citizens and a Kosovar arrested at the request of the Rome Prosecutor's Office
53:43by the Carabinieri of the ROS, identified in a 5-year investigation.
53:497 arrests were made in Italy, 4 of those arrested lived in Merano, 3 in the province
53:54from Bolzano.
53:55They wanted to carry out attacks in the Middle East and also in Northern Europe, but there is no mention of Italy,
54:00the ROS investigators explained.
54:03The attacks could have targeted Norwegian and even British diplomatic representatives to gain
54:08the release of their leader, who is Farah Ahmed Namuidin, known as Mullah Krekar,
54:14arrested in Norway 3 years ago.
54:17The European Arrest Warrant has been issued, the prisoner was born in Norway, of course.
54:21we'll see in the next few days.
54:24This Mullah Krekar, a leader of the Al-Qaeda movements, manages to adapt
54:30as serious criminals do, they change strategies and go through a process that leads them
54:38to an alliance with al-Baghdadi, with the world of the caliphate.
54:42A Mullah Krekar, founder in 2001 of the terrorist group Ansar al-Islam, a Kurd close to ISIS,
54:48from prison he continued to be the ideological and strategic guide of the organization.
54:53The Carabinieri also discovered that the terrorist organization was working on the Constitution,
54:58in Italy and Holland, of sleeper terrorist cells, code-named secret committees.
55:08General Governale, we also saw your statement after that operation.
55:13Fundamentalist terrorism of Islamic origin, already hit in Spain, France, the United States,
55:18Türkiye, in Great Britain, not yet in our country.
55:21Why and what should we expect?
55:23Don't make me say that I'm resorting to the national star.
55:28Of course, the national star is important, a serious monitoring activity is important
55:35that we do continuously, not only us Carabinieri, but the moment of coordination is absolutely relevant
55:42and at least once a week meets at the Ministry of the Interior
55:48the Anti-Terrorism Strategic Analysis Committee, in which the intelligence agencies intervene.
55:53We are doing a job that we believe is serious.
55:56Sure, it can happen and can means it is possible and it is possible even probable.
56:02We must have a very determined attitude in trying to reduce this very probability.
56:11and we are in an asymmetric conflict, where we have soldiers of God, the mujahideen, whose vocation is
56:25martyrdom.
56:26On our side we must have determined men and women, capable of doing their job
56:32and do it with a significant spirit of sacrifice.
56:37Only in this way can we try to eliminate this disparity in approach that exists at the beginning.
56:45Thanks to General Giuseppe Governale, commander of Del Ros, who helped us reconstruct the story today
56:51of criminal activity from street criminals to organised mafias, large-scale organised crime,
56:57to terrorists, yesterday the Italian ones who scared us and today the international ones who scare us just as much.
57:04Thank you.
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