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00:02From the most trusted journalists at Comedy Central, it's America's only source for news.
00:09This is The Daily Show with your host, Jordan Klepper.
00:26Welcome to The Daily Show. I'm Jordan Klepper. We've got so much to talk about tonight.
00:30Trump wants to grab Cuba by the Cohibas, free speech updates its terms and conditions,
00:36and MAGA gets into a big fight over small penises.
00:39So, let's get into our ongoing coverage of the war in Iran.
00:46Nothing bad can happen. It can only good happen.
00:51Now, according to public polling, the war in Iran has less support at its outset than any previous American war.
00:58And wars are almost always popular in the beginning. They're kind of like Apple TV shows.
01:06People are like, I don't know what's going on here, but for some reason, I'm on board.
01:11But President Trump doesn't need popular support or congressional consent to declare war,
01:18because he's got a high-profile fan on his side.
01:21President Trump made news when he suggested a former president he's been speaking with wishes he had done to Iran
01:27what Trump has done.
01:28I spoke to one of the former presidents, who I actually like, and he said, I wish I did what
01:33you did.
01:34Okay.
01:38First of all, why is the president holding onto the desk like it's a safety bar and a Six Flags
01:43roller coaster?
01:46No, come into the Oval Office. I'll be right with you. Just, uh, let my French tips dry, you know?
01:52No biggie.
01:55But the big question is, which former president gave Trump props for the war in Iran?
02:02Come on, Trump! Spill the beans!
02:04I just want to ask you about something very interesting that you said twice today.
02:07That you talked to another former president about the Iran strikes.
02:11I did.
02:11Was it George W. Bush?
02:13No.
02:13Was it Bill Clinton?
02:15I don't want to say.
02:18Oh, oh.
02:20I think you said plenty, Mr. Trump.
02:24I don't want to give away who it is.
02:26All I can say is that I was recently helping him prep for his Epstein Island deposition.
02:30That's all.
02:32By the way, I love how Peter Doocy is trying to play guess who with our toddler president.
02:39Is he wearing glasses?
02:42Is he bald?
02:43If he was doing karaoke, would he be allowed to sing all the words in Gold Digger?
02:52No.
02:54No.
02:54No.
02:54There's also another possibility, and this may come as a shock, which is that maybe, just
02:59possibly, Trump pulled the whole thing out of his ass.
03:03...aides to each of the four living former presidents all deny they have had any such
03:08conversations with President Trump.
03:10Yes.
03:12The living former presidents denied talking to Trump.
03:17Trump never said living.
03:21What's more likely, that Bill Clinton thinks starting a half-baked war in the Middle East
03:25was a good idea, or that Trump spent 20 minutes talking to a portrait of Grover Cleveland?
03:33Regardless of who he's been talking to about it, I'm just glad the president has his mind
03:37100% completely focused on this daunting situation with Iran.
03:41I do believe I'll be the honor of having the honor of taking Cuba.
03:48No!
03:49No!
03:50No new wars until you finish the war we just got you!
03:55This is not the time to be taking Cuba.
03:57By the way, what do you mean by taking Cuba?
04:02Taking Cuba.
04:03Taking Cuba in some form, yeah.
04:05Taking Cuba.
04:06I mean, whether I free it, take it, I think I can do anything I want with it.
04:11You want to know the truth?
04:14You can do anything you want with it?
04:17I don't know what's worse, that he's talking like a supervillain or that he sounds so bored
04:22about it.
04:23You should be cackling with lightning in the background when you say shit like that.
04:27Why are you sounding like Lexapro Luthor over here?
04:32The world is mine, Superman, I guess.
04:34Whatever.
04:36But while Trump seems unengaged, some people in his administration are getting worked up.
04:41Breaking news.
04:42The head of the National Counterterrorism Center, Joe Kent, announced just hours ago that he
04:48is resigning immediately over the war in Iran.
04:51Whoa!
04:53I mean, that would be even more damning if this guy wasn't an unqualified crackpot, but
04:59it still has to shake up a president when one of your appointees resigns over your war.
05:04I read his statement.
05:06I always thought he was a nice guy, but I always thought he was weak on security, very weak
05:10on security.
05:13You appointed him!
05:17You know what?
05:18I guess that tracks.
05:19Everyone knows the qualifications for running the National Counterterrorism Center go, nice
05:25guy, brings muffins to the morning meeting, and then all the way down the list, good on
05:30security.
05:32But this split is dividing the entire MAGA movement right now.
05:35There's the anti-war side, with people like Joe Rogan, Tucker Carlson, and Megyn Kelly.
05:40And there's the pro-war side, with Sean Hannity, Lindsey Graham, and Mark Levin.
05:44And as you can imagine, the quality of an internal MAGA debate is highly intellectual.
05:50On the X platform, Mark Levin posted,
05:53Poor Megyn Kelly, an emotionally unhinged, lewd, and petulant wreck.
05:57She's completely revealed and destroyed herself.
06:00In response, Megyn Kelly posted,
06:03Micropenis marked Lecey as the monopoly on lewd.
06:06He doesn't like it when women like me fight back, because of his micropenis.
06:12Oh.
06:14Oh.
06:16Oh.
06:23Feels like I'm bad at the Oxford Debate Club.
06:27Be it resolved, that dick be tiny.
06:30Now, it's not a good look for President Trump to have his followers fighting so publicly over
06:35their micropenises.
06:37Donnie, why don't you step in and heal the divide?
06:39President Trump defended Mark Levin, posting that he is somewhat under siege by other people
06:45with far less intellect, capability, and love for our country.
06:48Mark is tough, strong, and brilliant.
06:51In response, Megyn Kelly posted that Mark Levin went running to daddy about his micropenis.
06:56Damn it, Megyn!
06:58Damn it!
07:00Oh!
07:04Now, it's obviously not fair to accuse Mark Levin of running to daddy about his micropenis.
07:11Although, I imagine having a micropenis makes the running a lot easier.
07:18Totally unrelated, but in high school, I was the slowest guy in gym class.
07:29Put it out there.
07:30Put it out there.
07:31Put it.
07:32Ugh.
07:33By the way, did you notice that at no point did Trump deny the micropenis allegations?
07:39Not exactly the full-throated defense you want.
07:42He has a micropenis!
07:43Hey!
07:44He's a nice man!
07:48Also, I'm sorry, are we at war?
07:50You're tweeting about your buddy's micropenis.
07:53Was FDR taking time out of his fireside chats to be like,
07:56Anyway, that's how D-Day went.
07:58Now, if I may say a few words about whether my friend Zachary has a chode.
08:04Please.
08:05Please.
08:06Is there anybody who can calm the situation?
08:11Marjorie Taylor Greene, you're a...
08:13You're a respected member of MAGA.
08:16Perhaps you can bring some intellectual substance to this debate.
08:19Former Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene posted,
08:22I wholeheartedly support Megyn Kelly telling the world that Mark Levin has a micropenis.
08:27Oh, Marjorie, come on!
08:30Oh!
08:31He's...
08:32Come on!
08:38With all this talk about micropenises, we're losing sight of the real reason we attacked
08:43Iran, which is...
08:46Shit!
08:49You know what?
08:50Now that I think about it, we never got an answer to that, actually.
08:54And believe me, I've been searching for one harder than Mark Levin's urologist, you know?
08:59Boom!
09:01Boom!
09:01Sorry.
09:02Okay.
09:03Sorry, Mark, I had to get in one last small one.
09:05Just like you!
09:06Boom!
09:07Yeah!
09:08Sorry.
09:09Sorry.
09:10Okay, look, can conservatives please just stay focused on the actual war?
09:15There's a new Ayatollah in power who is dead set on revenge.
09:19You should be talking about him, not gossiping about men's penises.
09:22The New York Post is reporting that the president was just briefed about the new Ayatollah.
09:28Sources are saying Ayatollah Jr. might be gay.
09:32Oh.
09:35You gotta love that banner.
09:37New Ayatollah is probably gay.
09:42Give it up for the fourth estate, everyone.
09:45Wow.
09:45Bravo.
09:47Yes.
09:49Love the media, who apparently are now reporting gossip like they're high school mean girls.
09:55This just in from the CIA.
09:57The New Ayatollah got his period in the driver's ed car.
10:02Fine, fine.
10:04I guess we're doing this.
10:04Media establishment.
10:05Let's hear that hot, hot goss.
10:09Ayatollah Jr. might be gay and has been making aggressive sexual advances on his male caretakers
10:16while hopped up on meds.
10:19His father reportedly thought he was too gay to be Iran's supreme leader.
10:27Too gay?
10:29I like the implication that the supreme leader of Iran should be a little gay.
10:37He should be like, death to America.
10:40Except Lady Gaga.
10:42So that's basically where we're at right now.
10:45This country has launched itself into a devastating regional war in the Middle East.
10:49The president is focused on taking Cuba.
10:51His movement is split amongst themselves.
10:53And the media is turning into TMZ.
10:56I mean, the quality of our discourse has absolutely vanished.
10:59And in these fraught times, is it too much to ask for just a little bit of thoughtfulness
11:07and dignity?
11:09If we could just have the smallest amount, it would still be bigger than Mark Levin's penis.
11:23For more on the rumors about Iran's new supreme leader, let's go live to the Pentagon with
11:28Troy Iwata.
11:29Troy!
11:34Troy, what do you think about the rumors that the Ayatollah is gay?
11:38Well, Jordan, as the only gay person in the entertainment industry, I can assure you that the Ayatollah
11:45is not gay.
11:46Well, that makes sense.
11:48He's obviously queerbaiting.
11:50And I don't appreciate it.
11:52I'm sorry, queerbaiting?
11:55Yes, yes.
11:56It's exactly what everyone in Hollywood does to a T, okay?
12:00They take a straight man, tease the idea that he might be a little, uh, you know?
12:05And then just watch everyone get obsessed trying to figure out if he is indeed a little...
12:11It's so manipulative.
12:12But why would he even do that?
12:15The Islamic regime is very homophobic.
12:17It doesn't matter how homophobic the regime is.
12:20A good story is a good story.
12:22You know, think about it.
12:23A closeted leader of a homophobic nation, forced to lead after your father, who never accepted
12:29your lifestyle, is suddenly killed, and now you're burdened with the responsibility to
12:35pass laws and uphold traditions that go against your true nature, when all you ever wanted
12:41to do was just feel that spotlight?
12:44Wow.
12:45I mean, you're right, Troy.
12:47I feel so bad for him.
12:48He's not gay, Jordan!
12:51He's just sucking you into this fake narrative by doing what every Hollywood TV show does.
12:57It's so gross, I would only watch, like, half of it.
13:01Oh, my God.
13:02I mean, what if he falls in love with an Israeli general, but they can only see each other
13:08across the Strait of Hormuz, and all of their communication has to be nonverbal?
13:14Oh, my God.
13:15Can you imagine?
13:17That would be so sad and hot.
13:20Wait, stop!
13:21Stop!
13:21No, you're getting me sucked into it now.
13:23Stop it.
13:23I'm sorry.
13:24I'm sorry.
13:24You're right.
13:24It's a very powerful technique.
13:26Why doesn't our president try queerbaiting?
13:32Donald is not going to pretend to be gay, Jordan, okay?
13:35He's pretty gay already.
13:38What are you talking about?
13:39He's married to a woman.
13:41Oh, wow.
13:42A gay man has never been married to a woman before.
13:46Totally.
13:50Wow, yeah.
13:52He's not gay.
13:52He just tore down his wife's office to build a ballroom.
13:57But how do we know he's just not queerbaiting, too?
14:02Because in order for queerbaiting to work, people need to want to have sex with you.
14:08Troy Iwata, everyone.
14:10We come back.
14:11The president has a new app for you.
14:13Don't go away.
14:16The president has a new app for you.
14:36Welcome back to, uh, The Daily Show.
14:39Free speech, it's the piece de resistance
14:41of our constitutional rights.
14:43It assures that I can say insufferable things
14:45like piece de resistance,
14:47and the only consequence is having no friends.
14:50But lately, this piece de resistance has been under attack.
14:55President Trump and his officials are ramping up attacks
14:58on news organizations and broadcasters.
15:00President Trump baselessly claiming on TruthSocial
15:02that The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal
15:04and other low-life papers and media
15:06actually want us to lose the war.
15:09Then last night, the president wrote, quote,
15:11I am so thrilled to see Brendan Carr,
15:13the chairman of the Federal Communications Commission,
15:14looking at the licenses of some of these corrupt
15:17and highly unpatriotic news organizations.
15:20What are you doing, man?
15:21You're still going after the press?
15:23There's no more mergers left to approve.
15:26We're all just subsidiaries of one company now.
15:31Correction.
15:32One great company.
15:35Sign up for Para Warner Dismax Fubu Cock today.
15:45Now, on the bright side, at least Trump has stopped short
15:48of calling journalists criminals,
15:50because that would be a huge escalation.
15:53President Trump falsely accused outlets of coordinating
15:56with the Iranian government to spread falsehoods.
15:58Writing, quote,
15:59You can say that those media outlets that generated it
16:02should be brought up on charges for treason.
16:05I actually think it's pretty criminal,
16:07because our media companies,
16:10who have no credibility whatsoever,
16:12think they could be a serious jeopardy.
16:16Accusing the media of treason?
16:17You know what?
16:19I've got something for you to read, Mr. President.
16:21It is called the Constitution of the United States of America,
16:27which is...
16:29Where is my desk Constitution?
16:31Where the f...
16:31Okay.
16:33You know what?
16:34Pretend this Korean barbecue menu is the Constitution.
16:39Okay?
16:40Let me read to you from the First Amendment, sir.
16:43Uh-huh.
16:48Bulgogi Rice Bowl, $16.99.
16:53Kimchi Extra.
16:54Does that mean anything to you?
16:57But if President Trump is trying to limit journalists'
17:00freedom of speech,
17:01it might only be a matter of time
17:02before he tries to limit ours.
17:04Luckily, there's a new service that can help.
17:08Oh, my gosh. Have you been watching the news?
17:10They're cracking down on anyone who criticizes the president.
17:13I know. I'm worried about my freedom of speech.
17:15You mean like if I say,
17:17I don't really think President Trump is doing that great of a job.
17:20Shh. You're gonna get in trouble.
17:22Not me.
17:23Because I just signed up for Free Speech Plus.
17:26What's that?
17:27It's this new service from the Trump administration.
17:29I can say anything I want about the president
17:32for just $50 a month.
17:34What a deal. Do I pay with an app?
17:36Oh, no. You just hand $50 to the man standing over your shoulder.
17:40Oh, no. I only have $40.
17:43Oh, that's okay. You can just sign up for Free Speech Plus with ads.
17:47I can talk as much as I want, and every 15 minutes, my mouth plays a commercial.
17:52With gold at an all-time high, it's never been a better time to sell your jewelry for
17:57cold, hard cash.
17:58Whoa. That was barely noticeable.
18:00It even happens when I sleep.
18:02Cool.
18:03And here I thought, just my constitutional right to free speech was enough.
18:17So with Free Speech Plus, there's no limits to what I can say?
18:19Well, there are some limits. For example, no fat jokes, no dumb jokes, nothing about his
18:25little dick or his fat ankles, nothing about demolishing the East Wing or the Nobel Peace
18:30Prize or corruption. Oh, and nothing about Epstein or his little dick.
18:36Wait, no Epstein's little dick or no Epstein and no Trump's little dick?
18:40Both.
18:42Free Speech Plus. Free Speech has never been so guaranteed.
18:45Free Speech Plus does not cover black people and Muslims late night TV show hosts, gender studies
18:48teachers, really good guys, and liberal college students.
18:50So what are you going to say first with Free Speech Plus?
18:53Well, I think Trump is the promo code you can use today for 25% off your MyPillow.
18:59That'll show him.
19:02Free Speech Plus. Pay what you need to say what you want.
19:07Thank you, Desi. When we come back, George Saunders, when we go to The Bad of the Trump.
19:11Don't go away.
19:21Welcome back to The Daily Show.
19:23My guest tonight is a Booker Prize-winning author whose latest novel is called Vigil.
19:27Please welcome George Saunders.
19:42George Saunders, come on, come on, come on, come on.
19:47George, it is, I'm humbled to have you here.
19:50Thank you for being here.
19:50I'm humbled to be here.
19:51Thank you for having me.
19:51I loved this book.
19:52For the dumb folks who haven't read it yet, tell us a little bit about what this book
19:57is about.
19:57It's basically, the outline is a stinker dies.
20:01A stinker dies.
20:02A stinker dies.
20:02There's a guy who has been really active in the climate change denial back in the Bush
20:06Cheney era.
20:08And it's the last night of his life.
20:09Yeah.
20:10So, you know, hilarity ensues.
20:13And you empathize, you show some empathy for this oil tycoon.
20:16Yeah.
20:17Yeah.
20:17Is this really the time for that, George?
20:19It's always the time.
20:20No, I mean, when you're narrating somebody from inside his head, you find out that empathy
20:24is kind of, or maybe not empathy, but kind of a level of understanding.
20:29You know, you're talking about his childhood.
20:30And to me, the interesting thing about this book was, if you're a stinker, a guy who's really
20:35done bad things, how do you narrate that to yourself?
20:37Yes.
20:38I don't think it's the Cruella de Vil school of evil where you're like, yeah, I'm evil
20:42today and I'm loving it.
20:44But there's something going on.
20:45So how does, for three years, the question was, how does a guy who's done that, and he
20:49knows he's done it, so how does he speak to himself?
20:53Yeah.
20:54You know, how does he rationalize it?
20:55And so, yeah, so you're getting in the mindset of somebody who has done, on the surface, some
20:59pretty horrible things and made some decisions.
21:01Yeah.
21:01What do you discover about putting your head in that headspace?
21:04I try not to put myself in the space of other people, in their shoes, in their headspace.
21:09I try to stay immune from that kind of empathetic response.
21:13Just hover above them.
21:14That's the best place.
21:15It's the best view.
21:15I don't know why everybody's so critical about it.
21:18Yeah.
21:19What do you discover for being in that headspace?
21:20Well, I mean, one thing, in his case, the whole thing, in the last, maybe it's the last
21:24two or three hours of his life, and there's a series of ghosts who come around, as they
21:28do, and try to convince him that he's been wrong.
21:30And so, it was interesting to kind of look into your own mind and say, well, how do
21:34I deny shit?
21:35You know?
21:35How do I, if I'm, or stuff.
21:37Whatever.
21:38But if I...
21:39Cable, baby.
21:39It is cable.
21:41But you know, but when you, when we've done something that we wish we hadn't done, there's
21:44actually a series of steps you go through.
21:46First is, I didn't do it.
21:48Right.
21:48Well, I did it, but I didn't mean it.
21:51Or I did it and someone made me.
21:52And finally, towards the end, you might, if you're lucky, especially if it's the last night
21:57of your life, have a moment of real honesty and clarity.
21:59Well, it feels like this, this book is also debating the idea of, you have a character,
22:03a ghost, who is there to provide comfort.
22:06Yeah.
22:06You have another character, the Frenchman, who, in general, is there for accountability.
22:10Yeah.
22:11Wants, wants the, this oil tycoon to face some sort of retribution or at least guilt and
22:17understanding on their deathbed.
22:18Yeah.
22:18Like, where do you come down on that, of offering, offering comfort?
22:21What does that mean to you?
22:22Well, for me, the whole book was kind of a, uh, exporting of my own mental stuff.
22:27Like, as a career...
22:28Is this for people at all?
22:29Or is this just, this is just your own therapy that you're profiting off of, George?
22:33Yeah.
22:34Wow!
22:35It's a good gig if you...
22:36But, you know, the idea that, like, as a, as a career-long liberal, you know, slightly
22:40left of Gandhi, uh...
22:43You know, I want...
22:44Humble yourself here, all right?
22:45We get it!
22:46We get it!
22:48I want to forgive everybody, you know.
22:49And, uh, this one ghost, Jill, her point of view is, you know, none of us in the womb
22:55had a checklist of the way we wanted to be when we were born.
22:58So, if it turns out that you were lucky and intelligent and articulate and all those things,
23:02that's great for you, but it isn't necessarily a given.
23:04And so, therefore, the proper relation to people is be merciful when they're wrong.
23:10Don't be too triumphant when you're right.
23:12You know, so she's kind of an angel.
23:14She's kind of a very spiritual being.
23:16Uh, but she's also really bad at her job.
23:18Mm-hmm.
23:18So, so...
23:19So, for me, it became a debate about, like, in, you know, like, liberals like myself,
23:24uh, you know, if somebody, somebody hits you in the head with a rock, you're like,
23:29oh, thank you for the geology lesson, you know?
23:32Yeah.
23:33But I know that's, that's not serving us very well now.
23:35You've got to have some spine.
23:37So, the Frenchman is somebody who says, sure, you can forgive, but first you have to make
23:40people confess, and you have to reduce them to a place of honesty, and then you can start
23:44talking about repentance.
23:46Yeah.
23:46How do you see that?
23:47I mean, in this day and age, I, I read that, and I want to be somebody who is like
23:52Jill,
23:52this character who wants to comfort and see, use a wonderful phrase, that their existence
23:57and who they are is inevitable.
23:59Yeah.
24:00Um, because of the circumstances that they are in.
24:02But then you see that up against somebody who's a climate denier and caused a lot of
24:06havoc in this world.
24:07Yeah.
24:07And I do, in this day and age, that is so devoid of accountability.
24:12Like, I, I look to these characters and I wonder how much, how much grace we should accord
24:17people who have done such terrible things.
24:18Yeah.
24:18Well, I mean, the ultimate grace, I think, is to hold somebody to say, what you're doing
24:23is cruel and you can't just keep doing it and we're going to stop you.
24:27So for me, like Minneapolis was a beautiful example of people saying, we're not going
24:30to become violent, but we're going to stop this.
24:32Mm-hmm.
24:32And so, so to me that, there's no real divide between compassion and firmness if you do
24:37it right.
24:38Because God knows, I mean, if you're, you know, list of people in the Trump administration,
24:44this isn't good for you.
24:45Mm-hmm.
24:45You know, I heard a Buddhist teacher say, I wouldn't wish their situation on my worst
24:50enemy because of the karma or the sin that they're accruing.
24:54So in a certain way, I think to be firm and for me, the whole thing is in this really
24:58confusing
24:59shit show to say, do I still have any clarity about what I really believe?
25:03Do I still believe in truth?
25:04Do I still believe in love?
25:06Do I still believe in community?
25:07Uh, for me, I'm thinking like the big job is to keep that clear in my mind.
25:13How do you do that?
25:14Just even stepping away, I think that is a question I'm asking every day.
25:19Yeah, yeah.
25:19Uh, and I mean, I hate to say it as, when I go out and I talk to people, both
25:23political
25:23and also friends, people are having a miserable time right now.
25:26Yeah.
25:26The world is on fire.
25:29There is a war.
25:30We see cruelty celebrated.
25:32It's, we are constantly inundated with misinformation in ways that make us only angry and frustrated.
25:38It's hard to find that light.
25:40Yeah.
25:41Where do you see that?
25:43You mentioned Buddhism.
25:44Is that a path that you have found it in?
25:46Is it writing books and then making money off of it?
25:48It sounds like that's also effective for you.
25:50It works for everybody.
25:51Yeah, okay.
25:51No, I think, I mean, there's this old parable about a kingdom that only had one well.
25:57And for some reason, a witch or somebody poisoned the well such that when the people drank the
26:03water, they would go insane.
26:05And so the king who lived up on the hill, as kings do, he had his own well.
26:09Looking down on people again, it's the best vantage point.
26:11Yeah.
26:12But he had his own well.
26:13So the whole kingdom is going insane.
26:16And he's got the clear, clean water up there.
26:18And in the parable, the decision is, does he drink the water, become insane, and thereby
26:22be able to rule his people?
26:25And in the parable, he does.
26:26He goes as crazy.
26:28In our time, I think the trick is to recognize the clean water in whatever way you can.
26:32For me, it's writing.
26:33You know, fiction works, the way I would say it is, a good book is a series of moments
26:40in which the reader recognizes herself on the page, her experience.
26:43And her heart rises to it, and she's engaged.
26:46And this goes on and on.
26:47And there's some told love that two people who don't know each other have reassured one
26:51another of their mutual humanity.
26:53So you feel, hopefully reading my book, you feel that I believe you're as real as I am,
26:59and vice versa.
27:00So I think it's a small thing.
27:02But for me, it's really helpful to every day go, I know shit when I see it.
27:07I know Shinola, whatever that is when I see it.
27:10But, you know, but I think in this time, you know, this fever is going to break.
27:14Because these are a bunch of incompetence.
27:17It's like we took the...
27:20You feel so?
27:21You have hope?
27:22You see that?
27:24I think what happened was we took the most pugilistic, simplistic, strange people in
27:30the high school and put them in charge of the prom.
27:32You know?
27:33But I mean...
27:34But people got behind that.
27:35They did.
27:35And they did.
27:36And that to me is the one thing sort of intellectually I'm trying to work on.
27:41How did that happen?
27:42You know?
27:42That so many people, many of whom I know and like, and I know you've met a good many,
27:46how did they make that decision?
27:48And that, that I don't know.
27:49You, you wrote an amazing essay, uh, in the New Yorker in 2016.
27:53You went to MAGA rallies, uh, and events to sort of, uh, take a look at what was happening
27:59to America at that time.
28:01And, and you ended it, uh, questioning, I'm paraphrasing here, but that you saw America
28:05as a fragile place and you feared, you never thought it could potentially, uh, dissolve
28:11or crumble in your lifetime and you were questioning that then.
28:16Yeah.
28:16We are now in 2026.
28:19Like, is there any addendum to that feeling?
28:21No, no.
28:22I'm still going, what's happening?
28:23Was it?
28:24Yeah.
28:24No, I mean, the one thing that struck me, uh, on that, it was in 2016, I went to four
28:28or five rallies and I just couldn't believe that the extent of the siloing, you know?
28:32Like I, I, so I write for the New Yorker and sometimes in a moment of weakness, I might
28:36drop that fact at a party, you know, just to feel better about myself.
28:39So...
28:40Thank you for admitting that, George.
28:41Yeah, no, exactly.
28:42So many people come on the show, they don't admit it.
28:44Yeah.
28:45But so I'm at these rallies and I'm feeling very insecure, you know, cause I mean...
28:48Yeah, that doesn't get you very far in a Trump rally, trust me.
28:50No, that's right, yeah.
28:51Yeah.
28:52I don't feel so good.
28:55Um...
28:55Do you know David Remnick?
28:56Do you know him?
28:58Jill Lepore?
28:59Do you?
28:59It doesn't get you anywhere.
29:00Well, and this, I mean, kind of the anti-punch line is not a single person knew what
29:04it was, which is fair enough, but I'd never before realized how divided we were.
29:08And so I think part of the answer to this is that we're getting different media fees.
29:12Like I said somewhere that, you know, if I go to fight with my anti-Trump uncle, we could
29:17just put two TVs in there, you know, put Fox on this one, MSNBC on this one, and we could
29:21leave the room and talk about something we know something about, you know.
29:24So there's something going on there, but I think the first order of business is to be
29:27firm in what we know is right, and our highest vision of the country, which is everybody's
29:32welcome.
29:33Uh, when you're here, you're gonna get all the rights, you're gonna get every right,
29:37and I'm gonna fight for them, no matter who you are or what you are.
29:39Those are pretty good ideas, and they've been corrupted by this crew, but I think it's
29:44gonna fall away.
29:45And then my kind of, I had a Buddhist teacher once who said, despair is a more dangerous
29:50emotion than even anger.
29:52So to keep myself out of despair, I'm saying, well, when this crumbles, and it's gonna do
29:56so, and it's gonna be pretty catastrophic, then those of us who are of the spirit could
30:01fill the void with an even better version.
30:03Uh, because this thing is now, it's been discredited in so many ways, and it's just,
30:07it's basically standing up on one very shaky leg, and it's gonna, it's gonna go down.
30:11It's gonna go down.
30:11I think so.
30:12That's my prediction.
30:13George Sonders, I gotta tell you, it truly is, it is a, a wonderful book from one of the,
30:21uh, one of my favorite minds in this good old strange beautiful country with bad water,
30:26but there's good water out there somewhere.
30:27There is.
30:27George Sonders, everybody.
30:29You both, there's a video.
30:30Go get it.
30:31We're gonna take a quick break.
30:32Be right back after that.
30:47That's our show for tonight.
30:48Now here it is.
30:49Your moment is in.
30:49There's only one day a year that a morning anchor gets to say this, so humor me.
30:54Top of the morning to ya.
30:56Top of the morning to ya.
30:57Top of the morning to ya.
30:58Top of the morning to ya.
30:59Top of the morning to ya.
31:01I can't do Irish.
31:02Good morning folks.
31:03How was that?
31:05Was I still your Irish accent?
31:06I always try to do an Irish accent, and I can never pull it off.
31:09I always sound like a pirate.
31:10Top of the morning to ya.
31:12Ah.
31:12Mm-hmm.
31:13There you go.
31:13You might end up in a montage.
31:16Sorry.
31:17I'm sorry.
31:17I'm sorry.
31:17I'm sorry.
31:18I'm sorry.
31:19I can't wait for that.
31:19Ma filos.
31:19You
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