- 9 hours ago
Dragons' Den UK S23E06 (2026)
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00:00The doors to the den are open for business.
00:03A place where fortunes are made and futures are forged.
00:09But this time, the game has changed.
00:12A fresh wave of fierce investors are out to shake things up and steal the deals.
00:20Joining the dragons tonight...
00:22I'm Susie Ma and I'm the founder and CEO of Tropic Skincare.
00:26It's good to have you back, Susie.
00:27Oh, thank you so much. I'm so happy to be back again.
00:31My business has been one of the top 100 fastest growing businesses in the UK.
00:36That's what I'm looking for.
00:38When I look into the eyes of the entrepreneurs, I want to see real passion.
00:41I really like you.
00:43I'm looking for that entrepreneur with that seed of an idea that I know I can invest in support to
00:48make it something amazing.
00:50I'm getting emotional here.
00:52I am buzzing with excitement and I'm ready to make investments.
01:06My name's Dr Catherine Fernando and I'm a GP.
01:10My business is called Ayase.
01:15Don't tell me. It's a backpack.
01:18Well, it's got a stethoscope there.
01:21I've no idea why I'm engaging in this. I hate this game.
01:28I'm feeling quite nervous.
01:30I've been a doctor for 24 years, but I've only been a businesswoman for two.
01:34So, I'm anxious about the examination that the dragons are going to give me, but I hope they'll want to
01:40invest in me.
01:52Hello, dragons.
01:53My name is Dr Catherine Fernando and I'm a GP.
01:57I'm here to ask you for £50,000 in return for a 20% share in my company, Ayase.
02:05Ayase is a Japanese word that means to heal and that is what millions of doctors around the world do
02:11every day.
02:12But did you know that the traditional Gladstone doctor's bag was designed in the 1800s at a time when the
02:20vast majority of doctors were men?
02:23Thankfully, times have changed and nowadays over 50% of doctors in the UK are female.
02:30Unfortunately, the bags have not.
02:32These boring bags are outdated, masculine, and sometimes they don't even have enough pockets to hold our medical equipment.
02:46Ayase makes high-end luxury doctor's bags designed for women in healthcare.
02:52They contain multiple pockets to carry and organise our medical equipment.
02:57And we have six different designs and each is named after a pioneering female doctor.
03:04Ayase has been trading for two years.
03:06We have sold nearly 300 bags and we have had a turnover since launch combined of £80,000.
03:14Before I welcome your questions, I'd like to give you all a bag so that you can inspect them.
03:21A stylish range of bags, tailored to the taste of female GPs and other healthcare professionals, is the offering from
03:29Dr Catherine Fernando.
03:31This one's for you, Peter.
03:33Thank you very much.
03:34Okay, Dr Joan.
03:36This one's for you, Dr Faitlet.
03:38Thank you so much.
03:39She's asking for £50,000 in return for a 20% share of her company.
03:46So, I've chosen the red one for you, Barbara.
03:48Good choice.
03:50Thank you very much.
03:51I like that.
03:52The bags are proving popular.
03:54I like yours.
03:55This is cool.
03:56And already wanting to make a trade.
03:58Do I swap?
04:00Stephen Bartlett is first with a question.
04:07Dr Catherine.
04:08Hello.
04:08What type of doctor are you?
04:09I'm a GP.
04:10A GP, okay.
04:12Is this your first business?
04:13It is, yes.
04:14I think the elephant in the room is just about the size of the market, because I don't know
04:20how many doctors there are and how many people that would be relevant to use this kind of
04:23bag.
04:24Okay.
04:24So, the doctors that are relevant for this kind of bag are general practitioners.
04:29And in the UK, there are 54,000 GPs, and over half of doctors in the UK are female now,
04:36and
04:37about 60% of them go into general practice.
04:40Okay.
04:40So, how many customers do you think you have that could buy this product in the UK total?
04:47In the UK total, I think I would have 28,000 customers that could buy a bag.
04:54It's not a huge market, is it?
04:55It is quite a niche market.
04:57The market is expanded when you include advanced nurse practitioners.
05:01And you mentioned the word luxury in your pitch.
05:03Yes.
05:04How much does this cost?
05:06So, retail price of that bag is £300.
05:10£300?
05:10Yes.
05:11Wow.
05:12Wow.
05:12Oh, wow.
05:13Has it got good tea on the side?
05:15It does have a lot of detailing.
05:17It has details on all of the metalwork, the zips.
05:21It has feet on the bottom of the bag.
05:24I think if you were a doctor, you'd have something like that, wouldn't you?
05:27I can see you with this.
05:29I mean, it's gorgeous.
05:31It feels really high quality.
05:34So, what do you think?
05:35I think they're lovely.
05:36I mean, and when you look inside, I think the design's lovely.
05:40I mean, there's a lot of work that goes into these bags.
05:42There is a lot of work.
05:43I mean, it's a high price point.
05:45It is.
05:46But when you look at the bag, I can understand how the cost, how much are they costing you to
05:50make?
05:51This one, for example.
05:52That one, for example, would cost £73 to make.
05:55So, that costs £73.
05:57Yes.
05:57What does that sell for?
05:59£275.
06:00£275.
06:01Yes.
06:01And are you selling the direct-to-consumer?
06:03I have had some interest from a retailer, and they've bought 58 bags from me.
06:09And they ordered a few more, like, two weeks ago.
06:13And how many is a few more?
06:15Oh, only three more.
06:16OK.
06:16So, they're selling a bit, but they're not absolutely flying off the shelves.
06:21I've got to say, Catherine, the product is great quality.
06:25I mean, I had one, but it's been taken by Dr. Bartlett.
06:29By Dr. Bartlett.
06:30No, but I think the quality of it is fantastic.
06:34So, at the start of the business, I wanted to make sure that I established my brand being a very
06:39high-quality product.
06:42And hopefully, in the future, if we are able to continue with another round, then we can seek factories to
06:50get the bags at a lower cost.
06:52You said to Peter something there, which was quite curious.
06:54You said, if we're able to continue.
06:56Yes.
06:56What do you mean by continue?
06:58Do you mean the business continue?
06:59No, no.
06:59I just mean when we go into a second round of production, then it would be great to be able
07:06to source the bags at a lower cost.
07:11At this point, we have a lot of stock.
07:14I bought 1,900 bags because I went for the style and the colours.
07:21Yes.
07:22So, I have 1,550 bags left.
07:27So, if we're able to sell them, which hopefully we will be, then we can make £465,000 from that.
07:36In which case, we will definitely be able to continue and look for new markets.
07:41How much have you invested in this business so far?
07:44I've actually invested over £400,000 of my own money into it.
07:49£400,000?
07:50Yes.
07:52Where did you get the £400,000 from?
07:55My uncle died in COVID.
07:57Okay.
07:57Sorry to hear.
07:58That's okay.
07:58Sorry.
08:00You've produced a beautiful, stunning product off the back of that.
08:03So, it's not an investment wasted in that regard.
08:07It is tough.
08:08It is tough because I've been in this space before and I've spent a lot of time working in the
08:13marketing side of this space.
08:14But also, we had a business come into the den a couple of years ago who was selling these designer
08:19bags made here in Manchester.
08:20Right.
08:21Tough.
08:22Yes.
08:23Tough from all sides.
08:31A little bit too tough for me.
08:33That's fine.
08:34I understand.
08:35I'm going to say that I'm out.
08:35But thank you so much.
08:36And I'm going to pay for that bag.
08:38Thank you, Stephen.
08:42Dr. Catherine, I actually worry that you're so focused on the GPs that you're missing a massive market.
08:52Okay.
08:52Because I wouldn't, if you look at the inside of this, it just does what I want it to do.
08:57Great.
08:58It doesn't just do what the doctor, you want it to do.
09:01You know, it's a lovely looking bag.
09:02It's got some with my laptop.
09:04I can put all of my toiletries in there and I can put, it's really nice.
09:09Now, that doesn't stop the whole market being very difficult, as Stephen's alluded to.
09:15You know, but you do need to find a wider market.
09:18Okay.
09:18And I suspect that if you can just find those platforms, you will sell enough of the goods to do
09:25the thing.
09:26I actually do think worries you because I think when it came out to Stephen saying, if we can continue,
09:33there is something in the back of your head that's worrying you.
09:36That if I don't sell these, it isn't, I can't, I can't keep putting more money in.
09:41That's, you know, you, £400,000, that is a lot of money to put in.
09:44I know.
09:45But I absolutely love what you're doing.
09:48But I won't be investing.
09:49That's okay, Debra.
09:53Catherine, you know what?
09:53I think if you came here today with a wider story of how this bag is a multifunctional bag for
10:03the everyday working woman, I think you'd have very different responses from the dragons.
10:08And I think there's a lot of work you would need to put into this to just shift the stock.
10:16And I'm not passionate about it enough to kind of drive this with you.
10:20So I'm so sorry, Catherine, for that reason I'm out.
10:27You are very brave.
10:29£400,000 investment in this business, you are a real entrepreneur and brave.
10:38Having looked at this and saying, and heard what you said, your pitch limits the amount of turnover you can
10:48actually do with 28,000 potential customers.
10:52For that reason, I don't see that's an investment for me in the short term, so I'm out.
10:58And Catherine, I think you've clearly got a problem, you can't sell the volume, can you?
11:02Yes.
11:02Right, so to be able to sell the volume, you'd be better off to do something with a specific retailer
11:07that sells luggage and provide that product on a consignment basis to them.
11:12Okay.
11:12And allow them to do what they do best, which is target their customers and sell your product and take
11:16a percentage rather than anything else.
11:18Yeah.
11:19There's your route.
11:20Look, I think it is really tough.
11:24I really hope that you can actually get out of the stock by partnering with somebody.
11:29But it's not an investment for me, I'm going to say that I'm out.
11:34Well done, Catherine.
11:35Thank you so much.
11:35Thank you, Catherine.
11:36Thank you so much.
11:37Bye-bye.
11:37Bye-bye.
12:17I'm still very passionate about my company and this is definitely not the end of IASI.
12:35I'm Ben McGare.
12:37I'm the owner of Compo and we are on a mission to redefine food waste by allowing people to conveniently
12:42dispose of their food waste in one touch.
12:46Composter.
12:47Must be a composter.
12:48Must be a composter.
12:50What a load of rubbish.
12:51You're on fire with your puns, Peter.
12:54Oh, the fresh take you have on Peter's puns.
12:58I think you're great, Susie.
13:02The Dragons all have strengths that directly align with Compo.
13:07I think Deborah, though, is the standout for her history of sustainable and eco projects.
13:23Hello, Dragons.
13:25My name is Ben and today I'm here to ask for £86,000 in exchange for 20% of my
13:31company, Compo.
13:33I'm sure that you all dispose of your food waste in a variety of different ways.
13:38Some of you will take the time to compost your food waste.
13:41Some of you let the council deal with the disposal part of it.
13:44However, some of you may simply throw your food waste into the black bin and simply forget about it.
13:50When food is left to rot in landfill conditions, a harmful by-product called methane is produced.
13:56Methane is a powerful greenhouse gas, which is 28 times more potent than CO2.
14:03But we can take steps to reduce its impact on the environment.
14:08Compo is a sleek alternative to food disposal.
14:11You simply place your food waste in this unit, press one button, and in five to eight hours, you are
14:23left with a dried, reduced-volume, biodegradable mix, which is kinder to the planet.
14:31For some numbers, to date, we have received over €103,000 in pre-orders.
14:37And that is with a gross profit of €64,500 and a slight net loss of €6,500.
14:46Now, with your investment, we are planning to heavily invest in our stock and our marketing expansion.
14:53And with this, we predict that we will be profitable by Q4.
14:56I'd love to show you this around and any questions you might have as well.
15:01Can we come up and see?
15:02Yes, come on up.
15:05A machine to break down food waste quickly and efficiently in the home...
15:10I'd like to smell it.
15:11Yeah, of course.
15:12..is the offering from Ben McGurr.
15:15So is this a prototype?
15:16So this is a finalised unit, and we ran it today.
15:20And this is... It's actually still quite warm from today, so...
15:23So this is working?
15:24Yes, this is what came out of this one today.
15:26The eco-conscious entrepreneur is asking for £86,000 in return for a 20% stake in the business.
15:35That's nice.
15:36That looks like the stuff you put out of a plug.
15:38The dragons seem to be enjoying getting their hands dirty.
15:42Is it squishy?
15:43But with a passion for all things green, Deborah Meaden wants to dig deeper.
15:51Ben, thank you.
15:54So we actually compost virtually.
15:56Either it goes to our animals or we compost everything.
15:59There is nothing in our house that doesn't get composted.
16:01And there's lovely juices that come off compost.
16:04There is.
16:04And they're actually... They are lovely if you're a gardener because they're...
16:08You know, you can do something with them.
16:10So what... I was going to say how dry, but I'm going to ask a slightly different question.
16:14Yeah.
16:14What can I use that for?
16:16So it is a biodegradable mix.
16:18Simply mix it in with compost if you have it.
16:21So you're probably thinking, well, if I don't have compost, what am I meant to do with it?
16:24So you can mix it with anything you have, like potting soil.
16:27So if I wanted to essentially, let's say, repot this plant into a larger pot,
16:32rather than having to use additional soil,
16:34I could mix this in and essentially the nutrients would filter it.
16:38And what if I don't want to do any of that?
16:39So I'm doing it because I've got a massive pile of peelings over here.
16:44Yeah.
16:44And this reduces the waste and the smell.
16:46Yes.
16:47Now, hear me out.
16:48This may sound very counterproductive.
16:50You can bin it.
16:52And I know that might...
16:53That sounds really counterproductive.
16:55It does.
16:56And I will tell you why it's not.
16:57So if it was a scenario where you had to put it into a black bin to send to landfill,
17:02a lot of, essentially, when food waste, fresh food waste has around 70 to 90% moisture content,
17:09that is really where the methane-producing bacteria likes to feed on.
17:15So, essentially, you're lowering the reactivity of that material in a landfill to produce methane,
17:22and you're also greatly reducing its volume.
17:24Ben, did you develop this machine?
17:27So when I moved in with my girlfriend into an apartment, we had a food bin which was less than
17:35pleasant.
17:36So I actually went looking for a solution.
17:39There was any amounts of fancy bins and different things that we've seen, so there is products similar.
17:44However, their price point was a little bit less than desirable,
17:47so I went to a manufacturer and see if we could develop something at a much lower price point,
17:53which had basically all the convenient features of the ones that I've seen on the market that day.
17:58So how much is your product?
18:00So it retails for £249.
18:03Where is it made?
18:04In China.
18:06So this is an existing product that you've taken the branding of,
18:11or have you changed anything about what the manufacturer has already made?
18:16So the initial prototype the manufacturer sent me was single, had a single filter in it.
18:21I worked with them to get an upgraded version, essentially,
18:25but the actual development of the product is done by the supplier, yeah.
18:30So anyone could go and buy this product?
18:34Yeah, so we have been working with them to get exclusivity,
18:39and they said that they will open those conversations at around the 4,000 unit a month mark,
18:45which we are not there at the moment.
18:48Ben, this is a very, immediately, it's sort of alarm bells.
18:54I think the fact that you don't own any of this, that's really, really worrying,
18:58because for this to become truly valuable, you need to own the IP, ultimately.
19:04Something similar, or a pattern, you need to have something of value.
19:08So is there anything you can give me that gives you the confidence to be able to do a deal,
19:12rather than become a distributor of a product?
19:15Yeah.
19:16Because that's ultimately what you are today.
19:18Yeah, so I think in terms of the branding and marketing is where we want to try and retain
19:23some of that market uniqueness, I've got trademarks launched in the UK and Ireland.
19:30I know that's not a product IP that you're looking for,
19:33but it is some protection that we have around the brand as a whole.
19:37Yeah, what's the brand?
19:38Campo.
19:39Yeah.
19:40Yeah.
19:40So I mean, that could be a football.
19:42Yeah.
19:42Even if you did have IP, people will still find a way to copy.
19:46So I don't think having IP in this day and age is that much of a big deal,
19:50because there's always ways around it.
19:52Yeah.
19:53I think, like, I do, obviously, the IP is something that was, you know,
19:57in my head today to counteract.
19:59I think, like, it's important and I understand, but...
20:02No, it's a big, it's fundamental.
20:05Yeah.
20:05Especially for acquisitions.
20:06If you want to build a business, a proper business, you need the IP.
20:11Yeah.
20:11If you just want to be a salesman, then you don't need IP.
20:14There are, I don't know.
20:17I don't think it's the be all or the...
20:20I don't think it's becoming...
20:22Yeah.
20:23..that actually don't need IP.
20:24And people come in here with IP and I say,
20:26that's lovely, but that really isn't worth anything,
20:29because there's a thousand ways of achieving that.
20:31Exactly.
20:32So I think it's not the be all and end all,
20:35but I'm going to tell you where I am.
20:39£249.
20:40Yeah.
20:42Would I buy one?
20:44Why would I buy one?
20:46Well, the trouble is, it doesn't do the whole job.
20:50When you said to me, I might have to take,
20:54because I've got nothing else to do with it,
20:56I've got to take that and I've got to put that in landfill,
20:58that might be better, but I want to know that I'm doing the right thing.
21:02I don't want to know that I'm doing 80, 70 or 80 billion to the right thing.
21:07I want to know if I'm going to spend £249.
21:09It solves that particular problem.
21:13So it's just, you know, I'm looking for slam dunk
21:16and you didn't give it to me.
21:17So I'm really sorry, I won't be investing.
21:19I'm out.
21:19All right, thanks.
21:24Ben, without being too predictable,
21:27this is a tough sell.
21:29For this to be truly successful and big,
21:31I still think you're going to have to own the IP.
21:34You're a brilliant salesman,
21:36but that doesn't necessarily make a business that is investable.
21:39So I'm going to say that I'm out.
21:42But well done and good luck.
21:45Ben.
21:46Yes.
21:47You are an entrepreneur at heart
21:48and it's so clear, abundantly clear to me
21:51that you're going to figure it out,
21:52whether it's this or something else.
21:53So if I could invest in you,
21:55that would be a great bet.
21:59But for me, the IP thing is the sticking point.
22:02It really is.
22:04So I'm going to say that I'm out,
22:05but I wish you the very best, Ben.
22:07Thanks, David.
22:10Okay.
22:12Ben, I'm going to tell you what I said.
22:16Ben, you have not convinced me
22:18that this business is investable.
22:21You are, but not this business.
22:24So I'm not going to give you my £86,000 today.
22:29However, if ever you find yourself in London,
22:31you're looking for a job, you've got one.
22:34Okay.
22:35I'll keep that in mind.
22:36So I'm not going to invest today.
22:38I'm out.
22:42Ben, I think you're a great entrepreneur.
22:44I love that you're thinking about something
22:47that for me is a really attractive product.
22:49So I would actually buy this
22:51because currently I have a compost bin
22:53that sits on my kitchen countertop
22:55that is gathering fruit flies.
22:57Every time I open it,
22:58there are like literally fruit flies
22:59coming out of it in my face.
23:01And then I put the bin out
23:03and then the foxes get to it.
23:05So absolutely, I would be buying one of these.
23:07And I don't believe that you have to have an IP
23:10in order for you to be successful.
23:12What is your vision for the long term?
23:15Like, where do you see this going?
23:18In, I suppose the real answer
23:21is in every home that someone has for their food waste.
23:26Ideally, the vision is to eradicate food waste
23:28from landfills
23:29and to give everyone the opportunity
23:31to sustainably dispose of their food waste.
23:34That is the vision.
23:35And I do want this to be in every home as standard.
23:39I love that, Ben.
23:40I love that your vision for the future
23:43wasn't, I want to sell X amount in X countries.
23:46It was about eradicating food waste and landfills.
23:49And that speaks to the heart.
23:51And that's really amazing.
23:56Ben, I am going to make you an offer
23:58because I feel like I could come with you to China
24:01and negotiate better prices.
24:03I think we can tweak some parts of the machinery
24:07and we can make this have a competitive edge
24:10against all the other brands out there
24:13and also undercut them.
24:16And I could help you promote this.
24:21But I would like a higher equity.
24:24So you asked for £86,000 for 20%.
24:28So I will offer you all of the money.
24:31I would like 40% equity.
24:35Have a think about it.
24:44So, Suze, I think that a lot of what you have to offer
24:49is definitely something that I'm missing.
24:54I would love, though, to meet somewhere closer to the middle.
24:59And could you meet me at 32?
25:03I respect you coming back with an alternative.
25:0735?
25:11I'll go 35, yeah.
25:1335 it is!
25:15Yay!
25:17Oh, thank you.
25:19Success for Ben.
25:20Let's get the whole nation composting at home.
25:23Yes!
25:24Well done, Ben.
25:25Well done.
25:27He's won the backing of a dragon
25:29with the potential to help his food waste contraption
25:32rise to the top of the heap.
25:35Wow, yeah.
25:37Obviously delighted to have CeCe on board,
25:39so I think that should bring a lot to the business
25:42that I'm not able to.
25:43I thought he was amazing, genuinely.
25:45I really, really liked him,
25:47and I think regardless of what happens,
25:49I want to be in business with that guy.
25:50Yeah, that one definitely isn't rubbish.
25:54Don't encourage him.
25:56The investment really does validate
25:58that there may be something there
25:59that Susie sees in me,
26:01not just in the business.
26:03I'm going to go get some food,
26:04celebrate with a pint,
26:05and I'm excited for the future.
26:21My name's Helen,
26:22and this is my husband, Phil,
26:24and we're from Widness in Cheshire.
26:26Phil and Helen from Widness.
26:29Thank you, that's all.
26:32It's a challenge,
26:33working with your wife
26:34and being with your wife 24 hours a day,
26:36but we've made it work over time.
26:39Oh, good luck.
26:42He asks for his lunch every day.
26:45Still.
26:46I don't ask for my lunch.
26:50It's too much just churn, then.
26:53It is very nerve-wracking.
26:57But we've practised,
27:00and we really want this,
27:01so bring it on.
27:14Hi, Dragons, I'm Phil Lord.
27:16And I'm Helen Lord.
27:18We are the founders of Rehome,
27:20the kitchen, bedroom, bathroom outlet,
27:22and we are seeking £100,000
27:24for 5% equity in our business.
27:27We wanted to bring to you
27:30a new way to buy a kitchen,
27:31one that literally doesn't cost the earth.
27:35When we purchased our current home,
27:37we needed a new kitchen,
27:38and we really didn't have a large budget.
27:41So we decided to see whether pre-loved
27:43could be a good option for us.
27:46After what can only be described
27:47as a long and challenging journey
27:49to online marketplaces,
27:51we paid £5,000 for a beautiful big kitchen
27:56that would have cost considerably more
27:58if it had been purchased new.
28:00That's when we thought
28:01if more people knew this was possible
28:03and had more help to do it,
28:06they too might consider it too.
28:08So over the last 10 years,
28:10we've developed our online supported marketplace
28:14for buying and selling pre-owned kitchens,
28:18bedrooms, and bathrooms.
28:20Re-Home is B Corp certified,
28:22and we have saved to date
28:2414,000 tonnes of carbon waste.
28:27And we're now looking for the support of a dragon
28:30to help us make re-home the go-to verb
28:33that people use when renovating their home.
28:38An online marketplace for second-hand kitchens,
28:42bathrooms, and bedrooms,
28:43intended to be easy on both pockets and the planet,
28:47is the proposition from Phil and Helen Lord.
28:51So we thought we'd show you some examples
28:53because pre-owned is a bit of a mystery
28:56when it comes to kitchens.
28:58The couple are seeking £100,000.
29:01So this kitchen sold at just over £13,000.
29:05In return for a 5% share in their business.
29:09But we do estimate if that kitchen was purchased new today,
29:13that would cost in excess of £35,000.
29:16And this is the purchaser's results.
29:21So as you can see,
29:22it's been completely reconfigured into a different space.
29:27Phil and Helen might be capable
29:29of cooking up a dream kitchen for their customers,
29:32but how will they handle a potential grilling in the den?
29:40Phil and Helen.
29:41Yes.
29:42Hi.
29:43Hi.
29:43So at the moment, if I get it right,
29:45you are a marketplace.
29:46Correct.
29:47And you take a commission based on sales.
29:49Correct.
29:49And you have no stock.
29:51Correct.
29:51Except for appliances,
29:53where we do own the appliances as a dropship model.
29:56Yep.
29:57So what percent do you charge commission?
30:02So our commission for pre-owned is 30% plus that.
30:06OK, so how long you've been doing this?
30:11We incorporated 10 years ago.
30:1310?
30:1410 years ago, yeah.
30:15But I first brought the business to market
30:19two years before that.
30:21Wow.
30:22So give us some numbers for the last three years.
30:26OK, our financials for 22, 23.
30:29Yep.
30:30Turnover was 2 million.
30:32We had a gross profit of 1.2 million.
30:35Yep.
30:35And a net profit of 450,000.
30:38Yep.
30:40In 23, 24, we had a turnover of 1.3 million.
30:44Gross profit of 640,000 and a net loss of 515,000.
30:49Net loss?
30:50Yes, Tuca, a net loss of 515,000.
30:54In 24, 25, turnover of 1.8 million.
30:59Yep.
30:59Our gross profit was 1.2 million.
31:03Yep.
31:03And we were net break-even.
31:05And our forecast for this year is 2.5 million turnover,
31:091.6 million gross profit and net break-even again.
31:13Right.
31:13So, somewhere, you're spending money.
31:19Yeah.
31:20Where's the money going?
31:21So, in 23, 24, we completely changed brand and developed a new website.
31:30And we went to market with that in 23, hence why we had the loss.
31:34Did you have some sort of consultant to help you do that?
31:37We did.
31:37We did.
31:38We did.
31:38We had, we did.
31:39What was going on, what was wrong with the business in your eyes
31:43that made you pivot and spend nearly the best part of a million pounds?
31:48So, the original website, it had plasters, bolt-ons, you know, it was a monster.
31:55Right.
31:56And then the opportunity for e-commerce really did come to the fore
32:02for things like appliances, smaller items that didn't require consultative sale.
32:08Didn't you consider something like Shopify or something like that?
32:11It, it wasn't recommended to us.
32:14Amazing.
32:15Now, you don't make as much money as a consultant if you recommend effective solutions.
32:21It is, it is a key learn.
32:24Um, Helen, Phil, so I actually just want to pick up on some numbers
32:28because you're still spending one, between 1.2 and 1.6 million.
32:32So, what are the answers in the next two years as why you're spending that much money?
32:36Um, we're spending the money because we realise we still need to improve
32:40our customer experience and our technology.
32:44How far are you down that journey?
32:46Because you've now spent nearly four, well, you've spent four million pounds
32:50on your website or, or on developing this.
32:53No, we've only spent on the, on the website,
32:55probably around 800,000 including consultancy.
32:58Which is still quite a lot.
32:59Oh, right, so there's 3.2 million that you are spending.
33:04You, you, you're spending every year 1.2 million to 1.6 to...
33:08Yeah, our overheads, so we've got, uh, wage costs, marketing costs,
33:12um, you know, costs for running the business.
33:15Okay, so explain to me the rest of your overheads.
33:18Yeah, so our marketing costs, um, uh, per annum are approximately 400,000.
33:24And, um, so we've got wage costs of around, um, 200 to 300,000.
33:30Okay.
33:32Well, that's 700,000.
33:35That's, that's, that's, that's less than a half.
33:37Uh, what we also have is, um, uh, uh, uh, the cost for running the, uh, the website,
33:42the, the, the licensing fees, et cetera, there's about 100,000 there.
33:47Oh, my Lord.
33:48What?
33:48Oh.
33:49I, I feel, I feel, I feel what Peter feels now.
33:55I'll come and cry on your shoulder later.
33:58Oh, it's over here.
33:59100,000 monitoring fees?
34:01Who, who's charging you 100,000?
34:03100,000, so that's 100,000, uh, for the year.
34:07To do what?
34:07That, that is an absolute fortune.
34:11You spent 800,000 pound on a website with ongoing, inbuilt, ongoing costs of 100,000 pound a year.
34:19These were experts that advised us to do that.
34:22Of course they were.
34:23So we've got the website.
34:25Yeah.
34:25We've got 100,000 pound a year.
34:26We're still less than half of the cost of the business.
34:29So what else are we spending money on?
34:31We've got consultancy fees as well.
34:33Oh, my goodness.
34:34Who else are you paying?
34:35Um, so we've got a marketing consultant that is, uh, full-time.
34:40How much?
34:41Um, about 90,000 just on the marketing.
34:44Consultant.
34:44We spend on advertising.
34:46We spend, you know, it's, obviously there's a lot of marketing costs at the end of the day associated with
34:51the business.
34:52That's brilliant.
34:54And, and, and, and it's lovely to see you committing resource to marketing, but my goodness, do you know what
34:59I feel like?
35:00I feel like you are really good and you're paying other people to kind of knock you off course.
35:06Yeah, and actually last year was when we realised that.
35:11And we made some quite sweeping changes because it could have been a lot worse than it was.
35:22Phil and Helen, you've got a big issue here, in my opinion.
35:26Um, and I, if you don't mind me saying it in a nice way, I think the big issue is
35:30you.
35:30Okay.
35:31I've got a great business on the outset, real excitement when I first heard it.
35:36Yeah.
35:36What we've ensued over the last period of time of talking about this business, we've made this business, in my
35:42opinion, completely non-investable.
35:45It's almost impossible to invest in a business like this when you're running it so badly.
35:53So for that reason, sadly, I'm out.
35:56Thank you, Peter.
35:58Phil, Helen, um, you've done a remarkable thing and, you know, the fact remains that you've managed to build a
36:04business that's turning over millions of pounds every single year.
36:08So there's clearly some decisions that have been made correctly.
36:12But, um, as an investor, my, my, my risk appetite isn't quite there for this business.
36:17So I'm going to say that I'm out, but I wish you the best.
36:21Do you know, I, I can really understand where you struggle because I've been exactly there.
36:27I have made so many mistakes in my business.
36:31And in my opinion, it's how you react to those things.
36:35It's how you evolve.
36:37It's how you learn from those things.
36:39That's what's important.
36:42Um, but unfortunately for me, this is not an area that I'm passionate about.
36:45And I don't think I'm the right dragon for you guys.
36:48So for that reason, I'm out.
36:52Appreciate it.
36:56Look, I think you've done a great job, but you've got, you've been going for 10 years.
37:0210 years is a long time.
37:03And I don't believe that after 10 years, you've got room for an investor.
37:09So for that reason, I'm out.
37:12OK, thank you, Tuka.
37:18Um, I love so much about this.
37:21And I, I really like the both of you as well.
37:24I do like your honesty.
37:26And you've built something amazing here.
37:28I'm not out yet, by the way.
37:30But I do want to hear something.
37:33How are you going to make money?
37:35Because at the moment, you're growing revenue.
37:39Yeah.
37:41But what changes to turn this revenue growth into profit?
37:48So I think when we did the transformation, we, um, had an infrastructure cost that was a baseline.
37:54Now what we need to do is we need to accelerate our sales growth because we're only working at probably
37:5950% efficiency in terms of our cost base.
38:02So we can probably double our sales and not have to increase our costs at the same rate.
38:08And the proven experience, expertise that you guys have, I think you would provide that mentorship and guidance to make
38:15sure that, you know, we're following the right tracks.
38:19Oh, this is, this is difficult because I totally, I do worry about your decision-making processes.
38:26And honestly, if I got involved, I can't run your business.
38:30I can be there for the big moments, but I can't help you on a day-to-day decision-making
38:35process.
38:36I appreciate that, but we are making decisions, lots of them, every single day.
38:42These few decisions that have been absolutely pivotal were technically two decisions out of multiple.
38:52Big ones, though.
38:53We have agreed, but, you know, not, not to provide excuses.
38:57We thought we had gone down the right route.
39:01We genuinely did think that was the right thing to do.
39:04And guys, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.
39:10Um, I love this so much, and I like you so much, I'm going to make you an offer.
39:16We haven't heard it yet.
39:18Hide your cards.
39:19Just put your hands behind your back.
39:21Um, I, I, so I know how I can help you.
39:27However, you need more help than you think you need.
39:30But I do believe that we can turn this into a profitable business and got ahead of the market.
39:37You asked for £100,000 for 5%.
39:40So I'm going to offer you all the money, but I want 15% of the business.
39:46Okay.
39:47Thank you, Deborah.
39:52We appreciate all your comments today.
39:55And, uh, Deborah, thank you very much for the offer.
39:58We're willing to accept.
40:00Oh, excellent!
40:01I'd like you to accept that.
40:03Good, good, good.
40:04Well done.
40:05Great, great.
40:07A perfect ending for Phil and Helen, who've secured £100,000.
40:15Oh, I didn't expect that.
40:18As well as the backing of a dragon with the business nows to help balance the books.
40:24Deborah, day one, you go through the P&L, you strip out all the consultants and retainers,
40:29and you've got £500,000 profit.
40:31You pay a dividend, you've got your money back.
40:33I'm so happy you met her.
40:35Boy, do they need you.
40:37As you'll have seen, there was some quite honest opinions, and then Deborah came right
40:43in at the end, saving the day.
40:45So, I'm absolutely delighted that she's agreed to come on board and help us.
41:02I'm Gordon Leatherdale, and my business operates two fantastic consumer brands.
41:07One is for dogs.
41:08One is for humans.
41:10One is for humans.
41:10Oh, my God.
41:11It confuses everyone, to be blunt about it, including me sometimes.
41:16Dog bakery.
41:18There's dog, and then there's gin, and then there's chai tea.
41:24This is going to be ridiculous, I just know it's going to be ridiculous.
41:27A lot of things.
41:31As I step out of the lift, I'll be thinking about being in the jaws of jaws.
41:35It's the terror of getting things wrong, I think, as much as anything else.
41:39But we'll have to wait and see what the dragons think.
41:51Good evening, dragons.
41:52My name's Gordon, and I'm the founder of a business that operates two fantastic consumer
41:56brands.
41:57And I'm here today seeking £100,000 for 10% of the equity of the business.
42:03What do we do?
42:04Well, brand one, if you like, Natural & Noble, is all about exploring flavour.
42:08Many people, as you'll probably know, are accustomed to and very comfortable with creating their
42:12own food, their own dishes from scratch, and so on and so forth.
42:15And we say, why not extend that and apply that to making your own drinks and drink flavours
42:19at home?
42:20That's where we step in, with our fantastic range of make-your-own drink kits.
42:25Easy to use.
42:27They range from sets of botanicals and ingredients that you can infuse in liquor.
42:31We have a range of cocktail-making kits, and a range of, if you like, novel infusion
42:36bags to bring consumers flavours they wouldn't otherwise try.
42:39And the products are suitable for those who drink alcohol and those who don't.
42:44The second brand is called Dog by the Hob.
42:46It's a fantastic range of dog-cookie-making kits, and accounts for about 11% of our sales.
42:53Dragons, that ends my pitch.
42:55I'm not looking forward to your questions, but I'm here now.
43:00That's it.
43:01Would you like to try some products we created earlier?
43:03Gordon, you can smile now.
43:04Thank you very much.
43:06That's terrifying, but thank you.
43:08You did great.
43:09You did great.
43:09We'd love to try your products.
43:10Thank you very much.
43:13A selection of products for flavouring drinks, and a kit for making canine-friendly cookies,
43:21comprise the eclectic offering from Gordon Leatherdale.
43:26So there's an espresso martini on your left.
43:28Is that alcohol one?
43:29That is alcohol, yes.
43:30And what's that one?
43:30It's a cocoa vanilla chai.
43:33Gordon is seeking £100,000.
43:36If you look onto your chair, you'll see a range of products.
43:39You can try the dog cookies if you want, but you may choose not to.
43:43In exchange for a 10% share in his business.
43:47What do I do with this?
43:49They're the more involved kits, Stephen.
43:50And you use those, basically, to infuse larger quantities of cheap gin or vodka, basically.
43:57Their curiosity may have been piqued.
43:59That's nice.
44:00So this is a tea bag?
44:01Yeah, that's right.
44:02So it's pudding flavour tea, right?
44:04So all the character and flavour of cake with no calories.
44:10But will the dragon's cash prove as easy to raise as their initial interest?
44:20Gordon, hi.
44:21Yes, hello.
44:22I love all these different novel products.
44:24Really fun.
44:25Really giftable.
44:26Help us understand the connection between flavouring your gin, flavouring your tea.
44:32But then, dog cookie kit.
44:34Yeah, this is a question I knew that somebody was going to ask it, if not everyone.
44:38To explain the way the business works, we had a big...
44:41I hate to use the word boom, but during Covid, of course, online sales were very strong.
44:45And I sat there terrified.
44:47We'd just moved into new premises and so on and so forth.
44:49And I thought, well, what the hell do we do when, you know, internet sales drop off?
44:54I suppose I got paranoid and slightly frightened that the business was going to be taken out, taken from under
44:59our feet, as it were.
45:00So, as a group of people, we just had a chat and thought, we all own dogs.
45:05And we all thought, well, we'll come up with this idea and just see what happens.
45:08So, it's really a question of, I suppose you could call desperation more than anything else.
45:13So, you started this brand, the Dog Biscuit brand, because you thought this was going to fail.
45:19And has it failed?
45:20No, I thought this, well, I thought there was the possibility...
45:24Of failure.
45:25Of failure or a massive reduction in turnover.
45:27And you'll see from our figures later, I'm sure one of you will ask, that we saw a big deterioration.
45:32I'm going to ask you now, tell us your figures.
45:33Sure.
45:34Fine.
45:34In 2019, we turned over £150,000.
45:38In 2020, we turned over £560,000.
45:42In 2021, we turned over £580,000.
45:47And in 2022, our turnover dropped to £387,000.
45:54In 2023, it was £535,000 turnover.
45:58And last year, we turned, the turnover is actually £617,000.
46:03And the net somewhere north of £50,000.
46:07Okay, so looking at these numbers, it tells me that it looks like 2020, the COVID year, was the big
46:12boost to your business.
46:14But I can also see that you went down a bit in 2022 when lockdown was over, but you bounced
46:18back up again.
46:20Yes.
46:20Is that when the Dog Biscuits were launched?
46:22Yeah, I mean, it was at the same time.
46:24But the Dog Biscuits only...
46:25So, for instance, last year, we did £68,000 of the Dog Biscuits, about 11% of the turnover.
46:30So, it's still a very small part of the business.
46:32I don't know if I'm answering your question properly, Mr Myron. Sorry.
46:35I'm just trying to understand...
46:36I'm still trying to understand why Dog Biscuits, because your business is doing all right.
46:42You're... I can't disagree with that at all, to be honest, Mrs Myron.
46:46Yeah, we see demand for these...
46:47You can call me Susie, by the way.
46:48Yeah. Sorry, Susie, I do apologise.
46:50It's something I think about pretty much every day.
46:53I want to keep it, because I enjoy it.
46:56But our focus, I think, has to be on the natural and noble side of things.
47:00And one of the marketplaces we were selling on...
47:02I'm really enjoying this. You don't have a cigar or anything.
47:05Well, I can get you a rollie if you want one. I'm sure we can...
47:11Where's your accent from?
47:12Because you say these terms, somewhat and so forth, they're so...
47:16That's not accent. What is it?
47:17It's just, it is very...
47:18That's just so, it's... Education.
47:20Education.
47:21Where did you go to school?
47:22I went to a place called Kings in Taunton, in Somerset.
47:25Right. Oh, Somerset.
47:26Yeah, give me six, is what they say.
47:28In fact, I know Kings very well.
47:30Do you? Right.
47:31Oh, yes.
47:32It's a great place, great for rugby.
47:33I was born in Taunton.
47:34Oh, were you?
47:34Yes, I was born in Taunton.
47:35So, you must have played against Wellington.
47:37Oh, that's right, yeah.
47:38How old are you?
47:39For ages of payments.
47:40Do I really have to ask that question?
47:41Yes, you do.
47:42I'm...
47:43I'm 58.
47:44I've just turned 50.
47:44I only ask because my husband was at Wellington school.
47:47Oh, was he?
47:47I'm checking whether or not he played rugby against you.
47:48Would I have played against him?
47:50He's fifth... No, he's 50...
47:5458, isn't he?
47:54Oh, Deborah!
47:56I think your husband is 58, isn't he?
47:58Deborah!
47:59I don't know how old he is.
48:01I don't think...
48:0260.
48:03Deborah, you've got a toy boy.
48:04Yes, he is 60.
48:05He was 60 last year.
48:0660.
48:06OK.
48:07Well, we always used to come away from Wellington.
48:08I normally had a couple of black eyes and stuff.
48:10They were ferocious.
48:11They were...
48:12They were hard.
48:13So-and-sos.
48:14They were good, though.
48:15They were very good, yeah.
48:16I know.
48:18Anyway, sorry.
48:19I don't know who I interrupted there, but is anybody else mid-flow
48:22or shall I carry on?
48:23Deborah, Deborah.
48:24I don't know.
48:25I'm half-pissed.
48:27So, what do you want for this business?
48:30Where's the growth?
48:32Is it more of the same?
48:34Or do you see that you've got a sort of hero product here
48:38and you're going to build onto it?
48:40Goodness, that's a...
48:42That's a great...
48:43Sorry.
48:44That's a fantastic question.
48:49I think more of the same because I think there's still great opportunity
48:54to grow our brand in new channels.
48:56And I think particularly with our, if you like, larger sets,
48:58because I think they look...
48:59They're much more of a retail proposition, I think,
49:02than an online proposition.
49:03And what is your hero product?
49:05You know, there's usually an outstanding one.
49:08Sure.
49:09It's the gin and the rum.
49:11And have you ever done collaborations with people like the Craft Gin Club
49:15or have you ever worked to get more exposure with...?
49:19The honest answer is no.
49:20We get the odd occasion.
49:22We had an interesting conversation with the Natural History Museum.
49:25They wanted kind of us to do a marry-up, as it were,
49:28regarding all the botanicals.
49:30So, but beyond that, no, we haven't done any other sort of collaborations.
49:32We do get asked from time to time, but...
49:34And are these coming to you or are you going to get them?
49:38They come to us, and we're working on a project now, actually,
49:41which is, well, it's about 1,500 pudding teas
49:44that will go into a goodie bag for some event somewhere
49:46in either London or Birmingham next month.
49:50I'm trying to pinpoint, A, where it is...
49:53Yes.
49:54..where that's coming from...
49:55Yeah.
49:56..and where it can go.
49:57Understood.
49:58And it feels a little bit, at the moment, like you're here,
50:01you've got this lovely product and people sort of accidentally find you.
50:04Correct, yes.
50:04Which might be why you struggle when I say,
50:07where do you want this to go?
50:08Yes.
50:09Because I'm not sure you're clear yet, are you?
50:11No, I'm much clearer than I used to be now.
50:14I'm quite pleased with the fact we've navigated the last three years,
50:18but I have a much clearer vision for the business,
50:20and that is about selling product to consumers.
50:22That's the route I want to take.
50:25Whatever we can get ancillary to that would be fantastic,
50:28but I just want to make that clear.
50:32Gordon, just picking up on what Deborah said there,
50:35it's a confusing picture.
50:37OK.
50:39And it left me feeling like maybe you're not really driving this business,
50:43maybe the business is kind of driving you,
50:45because it doesn't seem to be that there's much intentional strategy
50:50taking place here.
50:52Well, what do you want to push?
50:53I want to push the larger botanical sets.
50:56Yeah.
50:56I want to push these products here.
50:58There's a range of whatever it is, seven of them, which...
51:00There's like some coffee thing there as well.
51:01Yeah, this is a flavours for coffee bag, which is just used,
51:03and that's something I really want to push to my mind.
51:06It's a fantastic product.
51:06It looks like a slightly different brand to the other products.
51:10Yeah.
51:11We've intentionally done that,
51:12and the reason is I really want to focus on retail with this product.
51:15I want it to stand out on the shelves, basically.
51:17As the picture's gone on and on,
51:18the sort of mosaic that's emerged here is you bring a product to market,
51:22and then because maybe there's fear surrounding that new product,
51:25or it doesn't fly or it doesn't take off, you start a new product,
51:28and that's how we end up selling dog cakes.
51:30There's more than a limit to the truth in that, Stephen, for sure.
51:33Yeah.
51:34I'm going to pull the plaster off.
51:36I like you so much as an individual and as a man
51:38that I've struggled to say what I'm going to say,
51:43because I just think you're a really, really top guy.
51:45But I'm going to say that I'm out,
51:47because I don't have clarity on this business,
51:49and I've not been able... I've actually got...
51:51The more and more we've discussed it, I've got less clarity.
51:53OK. Thank you very much, Harry.
51:57Of course, um...
52:00I look at this,
52:01and normally I'd look at an investment...
52:04Yeah.
52:04I'd have a plan in my head,
52:07but this just looks...
52:10confusing.
52:12So, for that reason, I wish you all the best of them out.
52:15Well, thank you very much indeed for your time.
52:22Gordon, I'm...
52:23I'm looking at you,
52:24and I think that you are a fantastic product innovator.
52:28Now, what I actually see here is you've created
52:30one, two, three, four, five different businesses,
52:33but my advice would be to pick the one
52:37and just be obsessed with it,
52:39because when you do a bit of everything,
52:42and you've got brilliant ideas,
52:44but when you start something,
52:46and you take it to a level,
52:48everyone else can come in and copy it,
52:50because you're not constantly obsessing
52:52over how to improve it,
52:53how to tweak it,
52:54how to make it better.
52:55Um...
52:56I'm afraid I'm not the right dragon for you
52:58to take this forward,
52:59because there are too many components
53:02and too many things going on.
53:03Understood.
53:03And for that reason, I'm out.
53:07I couldn't agree less with Susie.
53:09Oh, really?
53:10I couldn't agree less.
53:11You have got one product.
53:14Your product is spice mixes.
53:16He sells flavours that go into drinks.
53:19That's what you've got.
53:21But I think you've just got to get on top of your branding,
53:24and you probably need to tighten your range up a little bit.
53:27But I think you have to have this range.
53:29You have to be known for something.
53:31And there's not one product there that you can own.
53:35What you can do is own the space
53:37and just be the best in that space.
53:40Now, there's a reason why I...
53:43Because I'm very passionate about this,
53:44and I can see exactly what you need to do.
53:47I wish you hadn't asked for £100,000.
53:51Because £100,000 is a significant sum of money.
53:55Understood.
53:55And it is a considered investment.
53:57Yes.
53:57And when I think about what I would have to do to help you...
54:01Yeah.
54:01..there's an awful lot to do.
54:02I think you could share it.
54:03And to put in £100...
54:04Sorry?
54:05I think you could share it.
54:10I think there's an opportunity there.
54:13Might have to give up a large proportion of your company,
54:16but then you might not have a business here.
54:21Can I ask what you're thinking, Peter?
54:23I think Deborah's spot on.
54:24You are a drinks...
54:25Luxury drinks infusion company.
54:29I think with very considered thought,
54:32very...
54:32Actually, not as much work as you think,
54:35I think you could have a great business
54:36because I think that we could make this
54:38the leading company in its field.
54:43So I would like to make you an offer.
54:45You came in asking for £100,000...
54:48Yes.
54:48..for £10%.
54:49I'd like to offer you £50,000...
54:52Yeah.
54:53..for £20% of your business.
54:56And I'm doing that on the basis that,
54:58if Deborah would like to do the same,
55:00because it was me that stopped Deborah.
55:02Understood.
55:02Yep.
55:04Sorry, Deborah.
55:05Can I ask,
55:05would you be interested in joining Peter in this?
55:10I would, as long as you were happy with that.
55:21Well, I'd be blunt about it.
55:23My accountant told me I was being generous when I started.
55:27I mean, I'd much rather part with...
55:28I'd be much more comfortable parting with 20%
55:30if you'd be happy to take 10% each for £50,000.
55:34No, it's...
55:35Do you know what's really scuppered you?
55:36It's the £100,000.
55:38OK.
55:38Yeah.
55:38I mean, you know, I'm not sure I want you to give up 40% of your business.
55:42Yeah.
55:43So...
55:43And that's really, really important.
55:45So, absolutely, I'd be happy,
55:47but only when it feels right for you and if it feels right for you.
55:50And if it doesn't, then absolutely you shouldn't take it except the other.
55:55I've got to be honest.
55:55I think 40% would be too much.
55:58I...
56:00This sounds like a ridiculous question
56:01and you can take me behind the bike chairs
56:03and beat the...
56:05beat the hell out of me later,
56:06but I'd be much more comfortable.
56:07I think I would stretch to 30% if that was workable
56:10for either of yourselves.
56:14Gordon, I'm going to make this easier.
56:15Yeah, I don't think it worked.
56:16This is...
56:17You are uncomfortable about this.
56:19And it's not good.
56:20We're just not...
56:22Sometimes...
56:22Understood.
56:23It just doesn't meet.
56:24And the worst thing anybody can do
56:26is get into a business relationship
56:28where one of the parties feels really uncomfortable.
56:31Sure.
56:31So, on that basis, I won't be investing and I'm out.
56:34Thank you very much indeed.
56:35And, Gordon, likewise.
56:36On that basis, sadly, I'm going to have to say that I'm out.
56:40But I'm going to wish you all the very best.
56:42Thank you very much.
56:43Good luck, Gordon.
56:44Oh, bless you, Gordon.
56:45Yeah, thank you.
56:46You're a lovely man.
56:47See you.
56:48Bye-bye.
56:48Best of luck.
56:50Gordon must depart the den empty-handed.
56:54A two-dragon deal was on the table,
56:57but the entrepreneur felt the gulf inequity
57:00was simply too wide to bridge.
57:05You know what, I wanted to shake him.
57:09Quintessentially a British gentleman.
57:11Yes.
57:11But the opportunity,
57:12even the doors the two of you would have opened for him,
57:14even at 40%.
57:15I wanted to go up, but just be like, come on!
57:18He didn't feel it.
57:19And the worst thing you can do...
57:21Yeah.
57:22...is having an unwilling partner.
57:25It would have been amazing to have Peter and Deborah on board,
57:29but I think ultimately giving away 40% of the business
57:32was just too much to ask.
57:35Rightly or wrongly, I'll find out in a few years' time.
57:49Next time...
57:50They seemed in shock.
57:51Oh!
57:52Oh, please.
57:53Please.
57:54I'm not the biggest fan in the world of the deals that drop.
57:57I'm like, why?
57:58Why?
57:58I still need to understand why.
58:01It's good to know you have a plan B.
58:03You should always have a plan B.
58:04Do you agree with that?
58:05Because I don't.
58:07He agrees with it.
58:08I can't work out whether you're looking for an investment
58:11or you're looking for a dragon to dress up as a chicken.
58:14A bit of both.
58:19Talking tech and strange true stories,
58:22AI Confidential with Hannah Frye on iPlayer
58:25will get you talking press red.
58:27You from sounds, born in one culture, raised in another,
58:30what it means to be a transracial adoptee.
58:32Listen to me, Lee Chillinge.
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