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  • 8 hours ago
Dragons' Den UK S23E04 (2026)

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😹
Fun
Transcript
00:00The doors to the den are open once more.
00:04And the battleground for business is set.
00:08This is where fortunes are made and futures are forged.
00:12But in this brand new series, the game has changed.
00:18Alongside four seasoned dragons stands a revolving door of fierce investors.
00:25Ambitious, competitive and ready to take on the old guard.
00:31Joining them tonight...
00:32I'm Tiny Temper, I'm a multi-platinum selling music artist.
00:36A chart-topping Rhyme Master is here to compete.
00:40Tiny, good to see you bro.
00:41I was shook when I knew you were coming because I knew you'd outdress me.
00:43You know that was my whole MO. Forget the investment.
00:46I was like, I need to outdress this guy.
00:49I'm best known as a creative but I'm also a passionate entrepreneur and investor.
00:54Yeah, that brand game is really hard and it's kind of a tricky space to put yourself in.
00:58My first business was a record label but I also invest in property, art, start-up tech and consumer brands.
01:05I like anything that's lifestyle, I'm very much into it.
01:08I invested in a consumer brand and I helped it turn from a four million valuation into a hundred million
01:14pound business.
01:14I'm ready, come on.
01:18I would say my tenacity makes me successful.
01:21I don't necessarily agree with the valuation.
01:23I've come from very humble beginnings and so maybe there's a fear of going back to where I started.
01:28If your friends and family's money is already down the hole, I'm sure mine will probably end up there as
01:33well.
01:34I tend to look for driving entrepreneurs so if you're willing to get up and do it yourself, that will
01:39usually get my attention.
01:40The pressure is on and the dragons are sharpening their claws.
01:57I'm Alex and this is my brother Sean. I'm away from Warrington. They've got Tiny up.
02:04He's got his photo done. Look serious. They all look serious.
02:12Okay. Treats.
02:14Cookies.
02:15How do you like your cookie? Do you like white chocolate? Do you like the dark?
02:18I like white chocolate. White chocolate, yeah.
02:21What about you Tuka?
02:22I'm a nutty person.
02:24Never a truer word.
02:28Alex is a wonderful brother.
02:32Before we started the business, we were best mates and now we get to do this together, which is awesome.
02:40And we're still best mates?
02:42Yeah, best mates.
02:55Hi dragons.
02:57We're the brothers behind the award-winning Junk Bakery.
03:01Reimagining junk food with an added protein and fibre, low sugar sweet bakery range.
03:08My name is Alex.
03:09And my name's Sean.
03:11And we're here today with the opportunity to invest £100,000 in return for 5% of our business.
03:18Our story begins with our love of cookies.
03:21It all started long ago as two brothers chomping on bags of cookies in school classes.
03:27And then we started to grow up.
03:30And we started to realise that all those sugars, calories and fats were probably not that good for us.
03:35Over the last few years, multiple innovations have launched aimed at that health conscious consumer.
03:41But in our most beloved food category, bakery, there was nothing.
03:46So we made it our mission to change that.
03:49Having led product development at one of the world's largest sports nutrition companies, I was in a great position to
03:56take on this challenge.
03:58So, we have developed a delicious cookie.
04:02It has up to 90% less sugar than a standard supermarket or coffee shop cookie.
04:07And it has 8 grams of protein and it's high in fibre.
04:12We've since quit our jobs and six months ago launched with Tesco in over 750 stores nationwide.
04:19And so far, financial year to date, we've achieved revenues in excess of £700,000.
04:25So, Dragons, we've brought our three flavours of cookie for you to try.
04:32Deborah, I'm going to apologise now.
04:34They're vegan.
04:34Sadly, they're not vegan.
04:35I'll have yours, Deborah.
04:40Low sugar cookies, aimed at the health conscious consumer, are the offering from brothers Sean and Alex Brazel.
04:49Mmm.
04:51That's mean.
04:52Stop being mean.
04:55The pair are seeking £100,000 in return for a 5% share in their business.
05:01I recommend starting with the white chocolate cookie first.
05:05Mate, I'll beat you to it.
05:08Alex and Sean might be this week's star bakers, but can the pair earn a handshake from a dragon?
05:19Alex, you said you worked at one of the world's top sports nutrition companies.
05:23What company was that and what was your role there?
05:25It was a business called The Hut Group and my role was new product development there.
05:31And in terms of the nutritional profile, how is this different from the cookies that I see when I go
05:37to my gym that are high protein?
05:39So, from the nutritional perspective, the cookies that you will have seen, Stephen, are very much aimed at the sports
05:45nutrition consumer.
05:46And so the focus there is typically on the protein content.
05:49What we've really decided to do is we want to show up in bakery.
05:55So when you go into Tesco, our cookies are next to standard cookies.
06:00And for that reason, we've really focused on taste.
06:03And you've achieved, what, three grams of sugar per 100 grams?
06:09Yeah, exactly.
06:10Which is pretty good.
06:13I'm pretty surprised.
06:14It tastes really good.
06:16And of the 700k revenue you've done year to date, is it predominantly in Tesco?
06:21Yes, predominantly in Tesco.
06:23Is that your only retail location?
06:24Currently our only retail location.
06:27We had an exclusivity period with Tesco, which has recently expired.
06:32And we plan to launch with other grocers.
06:36I have to ask, why did you call it junk?
06:39So, when we were starting the business, there were health brands that were promising a really tasty product.
06:47And you'd end up eating it and only being disappointed.
06:50We felt that through junk bakery, consumers would feel connected to the fact that we are basically trying to reimagine
06:59junk food.
06:59And it cuts through the noise of a bounce.
07:02Because it makes me think it is junk.
07:04If you call your product junk, it's eliciting connotations that this is not good for me.
07:10So, we've worked with a consumer research agency who have helped us optimize the cues that we have on our
07:18packaging.
07:19So, sugar is still the most important call out to the UK consumer.
07:23And so, that's why it's top right on pack.
07:26But calling it junk makes me think that it is junk, is what I'm saying.
07:32So, I've got a sweet tooth.
07:34But being really candid, I didn't find it that great as an experience.
07:40And the taste, I was a bit disappointed.
07:43I'll have it.
07:45Yeah.
07:46That was my favourite, the white chocolate one.
07:48Yeah, it's... I like it.
07:49But I didn't think it was...
07:50I knew that I was eating something that isn't really a proper cookie.
07:55I think I just prefer to buy a bag cookie and suffer the consequence of that one bag cookie.
08:03What's your sell through?
08:05I mean, that would kind of answer a lot of that, wouldn't it?
08:07How many are you selling off the shelf?
08:09Yeah, yeah. Our rate of sale is around four.
08:12It's slightly higher on the singles.
08:14Four per store?
08:15Yes.
08:16Four?
08:17And is that...
08:18What was the...
08:20What were they expecting?
08:22Much more than that.
08:24Sorry?
08:24I'm just answering your question.
08:26Much more than that.
08:29That's not true, Peter.
08:31It was a launch brand.
08:33They'd suffer it because you're a new brand.
08:35They need to encourage new product categories.
08:37No.
08:37But four per store per week.
08:39That's not true.
08:40It's one of the top performing products in the category.
08:45So, I really appreciate your feedback on the product.
08:48Of course I do.
08:49It is obviously also subjective.
08:51We've had some amazing reviews since we've gone live.
08:55People love the product.
08:58Guys, um, I've made no investments in this sector.
09:03However, I know about business.
09:08So, what investment you've put into this business so far?
09:12Yeah, we have both individually put in 40k.
09:16Yep.
09:17Um, that was investing in the development of the product.
09:21Yep.
09:21And we did a friends and family investment round in 2022.
09:25How much is that?
09:27Uh, £200,000.
09:29Wow.
09:30We then did an additional, um, investment round in 23,
09:36uh, from High Net Worths, which was 300k.
09:40And then we did a crowd fund last year.
09:43So, in total, how much did we raise?
09:45About £900,000.
09:46How much?
09:47£900.
09:48£900,000.
09:50Whoa!
09:52Congratulations!
09:55So, how much did you go in the bank?
09:58We've got around £125,000.
10:01So, you went for about £700,000?
10:04Yes.
10:04So far?
10:05Yes.
10:06Right, so give us some numbers so we get an idea of, uh,
10:10where the £700,000 gone.
10:13Yep.
10:13So, the first year we did, um, £26,000 in revenue
10:19and suffered losses of around £150,000.
10:23Losses?
10:24Yeah.
10:24The next year we did...
10:25That's okay.
10:26The next year we did £19,000 in revenue
10:28and suffered £325,000 in losses.
10:32Yep.
10:32This year we're forecast to achieve £900,000 in revenue
10:36and are forecasting, um, £245,000 in losses.
10:42Losses, okay.
10:43So, you've been losing money, right?
10:46And here we are, back in a one-horse pony, in a race.
10:50Tesco.
10:52If Tesco drops you in a year's time, what happens?
10:56Well, we're hoping that's not going to be the case.
10:58Well, no, but it's a risk.
11:00We have an exclusivity arrangement with Tesco Tuka
11:04that finished two weeks ago.
11:05And we're very, very confident that we're going to land
11:08one or two other major retailers by the end of this year.
11:12I think you're going to have to rely on a fortune cookie.
11:16Um, guys, I've cut in,
11:18and I know that sometimes it's harsh feedback.
11:21It actually isn't, it's just honesty,
11:23because you've spent £700,000
11:26and you've got to this point.
11:27You've had two years of planning.
11:29You've known that you've had an exclusivity
11:32with one major supermarket.
11:33You could have spent every minute of every day
11:36going to tee up your next opportunity.
11:40What's been stopping you from doing that?
11:43We knew that Tesco had to be a success
11:46in order for it to be rolled out.
11:49Um, I'd also like to make the point,
11:51we started trading in May 2023.
11:54So, going from the space of 18 months
11:57to trading, to launching...
11:59Do you think you've done well?
12:01Definitely, yeah.
12:03I think to go...
12:04I think this could be an issue.
12:08We're hungry for more, Peter, but...
12:10No, no, what I think the issue is,
12:12is the fact of your level of expectation
12:14and what good is.
12:15Because I don't think the product's good enough.
12:17I really don't.
12:19And also, I think an element of constructive feedback
12:22is really positive in a business,
12:24because you have to take feedback
12:26for you to evolve and grow,
12:28because you're limiting your opportunity otherwise.
12:32You have a business currently
12:33that is losing a lot of money.
12:37You're spending a lot of your family and friends' money as well.
12:41So, I can't invest in this today and say that I'm out.
12:44But I feel for you,
12:45so that's the only reason why I'm being tough on you.
12:51Yeah, I'm gonna jump in here, sorry.
12:53I think you two as brothers,
12:54like the origin story,
12:56what you guys are trying to achieve in the marketplace,
12:59I think is great.
13:01But I do think that, you know,
13:02if your friends' and family's money is already kind of down the hole,
13:06I'm sure mine will probably end up there as well.
13:08So, with that being said, I wish you guys all the best.
13:11I'm pretty sure you will make it,
13:12regardless of whether anyone invests or not.
13:15but I'm out as well.
13:17Thank you, Tony.
13:20Now, I'm obviously,
13:22I'm at a huge disadvantage
13:24because I haven't eaten one.
13:28It smelled absolutely delicious,
13:30but I can't taste it.
13:32So, I kind of can't invest.
13:34You know, it doesn't make sense to me at all.
13:37So, I won't be investing.
13:38I'm out.
13:44Guys, um...
13:46700,000 loss is a lot of money for a cooking business.
13:51From what you've presented today, for me, it's not investable.
13:57So, for that reason, I'm out.
13:59Take care.
14:00Yeah.
14:04Alex, Sean, I agree with a lot of what I've heard today,
14:07but then I also disagree with a lot of it as well.
14:10I think part of the issue you've had with the Dragons today
14:13is the ones that have tried it
14:15haven't really tried any of the competitors.
14:18I think they're kind of thinking about this through the lens of a cookie,
14:21whereas when I tried this through the lens of the ones that I have in my gym,
14:25and my gym ones, I have to, like, endure it.
14:27It's like, it's horrible.
14:30So, when I tried this, I was expecting to endure it.
14:34And my expectation was so low that when I tasted it, I was surprised.
14:40And that's what caused the delight.
14:42And through that lens, viewing it more as a health-positioned product,
14:46it's really good.
14:47It is really good.
14:50However, the branding of this is so confusing.
14:54This needs a radical rebrand, because I am your customer,
14:57and I wouldn't touch this.
14:59But congratulations on making something that's delicious,
15:02but I'm going to say that I'm out.
15:04Thank you. Thank you, everybody.
15:06Good luck, guys. Good luck, man.
15:07Good luck, the best.
15:11The two siblings leave the den with qualified praise for their product,
15:16but without shaking on a deal.
15:20You okay? Yeah.
15:22The dragons having held on to their dough.
15:26Brilliant experience.
15:28Obviously disappointed not to come away with investment,
15:31but always going to take feedback on boards.
15:35I'm really proud of Alex, who had the vision for the product,
15:37which got the sort of feedback that it did from Stephen,
15:40which was really positive.
15:42And no one can take that away from us.
15:59I'm John McClary.
16:02I'm from a little town in Northern Ireland called Limavadi.
16:07Our flagship product is Business 5s.
16:11The Dragons, they might think that we're a trophy supplier.
16:14They might think that we're a kit supplier for corporate companies.
16:18They might think we do all of the above.
16:22Footy.
16:22Trophy store?
16:24What's different, though?
16:26I just thought they brought my trophies out.
16:29Maybe it's a tournament for multiple sports.
16:32Either way, it hasn't given a lot away, has it?
16:34No.
16:35Let's find out.
16:39I have such admiration and respect for all the Dragons.
16:45I can't wait to see what my heart rate's going to do.
16:48But, yeah, I'm super excited.
17:00Hello, Dragons.
17:02What an honour and a privilege it is to finally say those words.
17:07My name is John McClary, founder and director of Business 5s Limited.
17:12Today, I am looking for a £50,000 investment in return for a 5% stake in our corporate charity
17:21sports events company.
17:23Business 5s is a mission-led business that creates memorable experiences, allowing professionals the chance to develop relationships while making
17:33a positive impact.
17:36Business 5 started off with five-a-side football.
17:40Since then, we have diversified into golf, mixed-touch rugby and e-sports events.
17:47Along with our clients, we have helped raise over £1 million for charity.
17:54We help companies find new ways to connect employees, promote positive mental and physical health.
18:02We really, really help people develop their corporate culture.
18:06We have already helped connect 5,000 companies, delivering events across the UK and Ireland.
18:15To date, we have achieved sales of over £3 million, with revenue last year of £797,000.
18:23Our aim over the next three years is to increase the geographic reach of our events, and we see sponsorship
18:31revenue as a huge growth potential for us.
18:34Now, in true Business 5 style, we have created a micro Business 5s event for you.
18:41We've pretty much fast-forwarded all the good action, and we're going straight to sudden death penalties.
18:47Tiny, would you like to go on goals?
18:49Why not?
18:52A business which combines the worlds of corporate events, sports and charity is the proposition from John McLary.
19:00Tooker, you're up first.
19:02First.
19:03Oh, God, everybody, brace yourself.
19:05One step.
19:06Yeah.
19:08Oh, good effort!
19:10John is seeking £50,000.
19:14That was a cracking sieve, to be fair.
19:18In return for 5% of his company.
19:21Look at Tiny's face, look at that.
19:23I'm ready, come on.
19:27Whoa!
19:28Oh, he's good.
19:29Good save.
19:31Tiny temper has kept a clean sheet so far, but there's still one dragon to kick.
19:38Hey!
19:39You let that in.
19:41You let that in.
19:43Well done.
19:44Thank you very much.
19:45Can John net a deal in the den?
19:48Deborah Meaden's first up, and her questions are even sharper than her shooting.
19:56So, John, that kind of helped me, we obviously saw a bit of action there, but I still need a
20:02bit of explanation on the business.
20:04We essentially put on events, so name a city in the UK, we've probably got an event there.
20:09So, we go out to the local business community, invite them along to come and take part in business vibes.
20:15They get their five-a-side team ready to go, and they pick a chosen charity to pay for.
20:21They give us their company logo so we can do some marketing, get some positive brand exposure for them as
20:25well.
20:26They come along and enjoy the events.
20:29Okay, great, got it.
20:30So, what's your revenue?
20:31How do you make your money?
20:32We make our money from event entry fees.
20:35Which would be typically what?
20:38495 plus VAT for a team of up to eight players.
20:41So, that includes obviously all your football, all your networking.
20:45We finish with a drinks reception and pizza buffet after.
20:49There's loads of matches on the go at one time.
20:52And then we finish up with a presentation and a Q&A with some former players.
20:57Okay.
20:59And how many of these a year would you be running?
21:03Around about 80 to 100.
21:05And can I just go through your revenue?
21:08I know that you said that you were turning over 700 and...
21:1297. 800?
21:14800.
21:14I didn't want to say 800.
21:15800 in the last year.
21:17Yeah.
21:17What would that do in terms of profit?
21:20So, last year we actually turned over a net loss of £59,000.
21:25Okay.
21:26The year...
21:27I tell you what, give me a year that you made money.
21:31Yeah.
21:32So, 2021, our turnover was £209,000.
21:37Net profit was £34,000.
21:402022, we turned over £584,000.
21:45And net profit was £78,000.
21:49In 2023, we made £695,000.
21:54And net profit was £86,000.
21:56Okay.
21:57So, you are turning over some pretty chunky money.
22:00Not a lot of it's dropping through to profit.
22:02And your biggest year, you've lost money.
22:04Why?
22:05We made some really key hires.
22:08That increase in wage bill was a huge factor for that.
22:11So, next year, what are you expecting?
22:13So, next year, we're forecasting £917,000.
22:18And back to profitability with £91,000 in net profit.
22:27John.
22:28Really fun.
22:29But how does this become a really big, scalable business?
22:32The big opportunities for us are in the geographic expansions.
22:36We would love to go to, well, we've got as far as Amsterdam.
22:40So, we've delivered three events in the Netherlands now.
22:43So, how big can the UK be for you as a business?
22:45I think we could get the UK to £1.52 million.
22:50£1.52 million revenue?
22:52Yeah.
22:53Okay.
22:54Not huge.
22:55Not huge.
22:59Hi, John.
23:01So, if I'm a corporate, I'm going to pay you £495.
23:05And then, where's the charity bit?
23:08What happens with the charity?
23:09So, 10% of all our entry fees goes to charity.
23:13We have no control over where that money goes.
23:16That's your choice, what charity you pay for.
23:18So, how much money went to charity last year, in the full year?
23:22£76,000, I think it was.
23:24£76,000?
23:24Yeah.
23:26So, if you think about it logically as a business, I could decide, you know,
23:30which we all do, we could decide with all of our companies,
23:32a percentage contribution of their profits we give to charity each year
23:37and we can choose to have those charities.
23:38Mm-hm.
23:40So, I'm just trying to get...
23:41Unless I've missed something,
23:43I just want to find out what makes you different.
23:48And maybe I have missed it completely.
23:50So, we offer a top fundraiser price at each event,
23:53so they do some fundraising in advance and that's allowed us to...
23:56Most of the companies, I do all this, I do this myself.
23:58That's the bit I don't understand.
24:01I've got a lot of different companies, they do all their own events
24:04and then we run multiple charity events.
24:07So, I'm a bit confused about why, and at Stephen's point,
24:10how do we grow this into a big business?
24:13I suppose it's the negative know-how that we've developed by delivering 300 events.
24:19We know how to deliver a really, really slick 5SI football tournament
24:23that is an amazing client experience.
24:25And we've really, really put a lot of effort into delivering a really, really good...
24:30See, that I get. I totally get that.
24:32But I'm sitting here and I'm just sensing an element of conflict on the business model side.
24:36Let me explain. So, I've got my own foundation, had that for 20 years.
24:40We do a lot of stuff for charity.
24:44And I'm thinking, this is almost perfect where there are some businesses
24:48that it's really good to make as much profit as possible
24:51because you're investing in that business and there's a tie to charity.
24:55The more money you make, the more options you have to be able to give to charity.
24:59But it feels like this is such a, for me, a real almost not-for-profit organisation that you've built.
25:07And it's almost like I want to go, oh my God, it will be amazing to work with you.
25:11Because I think you, the way you've presented and the way you've held yourself,
25:14I tell you, is exemplary.
25:17And I'm trying to think, actually, I'd love to lift this and shift this
25:20and put this into my foundation, as opposed to investing in it as a business.
25:26You have touched on so many stuff there.
25:29Thank you very much for your kind words.
25:32We have such a, I really want somebody that shares our values and our mission.
25:37Those shared values are really important to me.
25:42Can I ask you a question?
25:43You used the word mission in response to Peter there.
25:46What is that mission?
25:48If you are to be successful and we meet and have a coffee in a couple of decades' time
25:52and you say to me it was so successful, how would you have defined that success?
25:55One of the biggest challenges we had, because last year, together with our clients,
25:59we reached the million pound mark.
26:01Now, that was eight years of hard work.
26:03That was such a goal.
26:04And now we've kind of got that, what's next for us?
26:08I would love to say, right, I want to raise 10 million pound.
26:11I think that's a really lazy goal to have.
26:13I haven't quite found that next goal yet, if I'm being brutally honest.
26:18Hmm.
26:21That's interesting.
26:23I asked that question because I was hoping to place you in either of two categories.
26:28Either the sort of more charitable side, and then in my head, I'd go,
26:31OK, so this is going to be a great investment that's going to really change the world for the better.
26:35On the other side, you have a business.
26:37I thought, OK, so if he says business, I can mentally place him there.
26:40Your answer was, you don't know.
26:44And so, because it's unclear, I don't know where to place this as an investment.
26:49So, keep doing what you're doing.
26:51It's really important from a wellbeing standpoint.
26:53But I'm going to say that I'm out.
26:55Thank you very much.
27:00I think my worry for this, I do feel a little bit like I'm not quite sure what it is.
27:06I really like you.
27:08But as an investment, I can't quite get it.
27:11So, I'm really sorry, but I'm out.
27:15Thank you very much.
27:20John, I'll tell you where I am.
27:22So, I think it's an incredible concept.
27:25But I personally don't feel like I will be able to give you the value that other dragons will be
27:30able to give you.
27:31So, I'm out.
27:33Thank you very much, Tenny.
27:39John, your concept really resonates with me from a charitable perspective.
27:39You know your stuff.
27:40But I personally, I'm not excited.
27:43I can't see how I, as a dragon, can add value to you.
27:50So, for that reason, I'm out.
27:52Thank you very much, Ticker.
27:56John, your concept really resonates with me from a charitable perspective.
28:02but as a business for me to get over the line and see what this opportunity is i can't i
28:08can't get
28:08there but i would love to pick up with you and my foundation outside of the den and we could
28:15share
28:16some information and share perhaps knowledge and who knows where that might lead in the future
28:21but as an investment as presented today i just can't get there so that's the reason why i'm out
28:27i would love to take up an opportunity to continue the conversation i do really struggle with that
28:32tag of being an entrepreneur i do see myself more as a social entrepreneur you are a social
28:37entrepreneur and you should be proud of that thank you john may not have managed to leave the den with
28:45a deal wow that was some experience but he did make a positive impression on the dragon
28:56what a great guy peter's words were brilliant and hopefully it gives me a bit of self-belief
29:03to be able to go on and achieve bigger and better things i'm definitely gonna go away and dream up
29:26some big goals
29:26hi i'm rob and this is jay and we're from the active hands company we'll see them for real
29:32and yeah i know this is the most nerve can figure yeah probably the company started out in a very
29:39small way just myself and my mum and it's developed over many many years and we are looking for the
29:44investment to take it to the next level really so some kind of aids for yeah people in wheelchair
29:50aids for mobility okay interesting so rob's my boss he's the ceo and i'm the business development
29:57manager it's just a really friendly company rob's a good boss thank you
30:02please me for not not not to specifically say that there's not a bonus to that
30:19hi i'm rob and i'm the ceo of the active hands company hi i'm joe i'm the business development
30:24manager and we're here to ask for 75 000 pounds for a five percent investment in our company
30:32after my spinal cord injury many years ago i found that my the frustration of my reduced
30:37hand function affected my life much more than my reduced mobility using my engineering degree skills
30:43we started designing products and in 2007 the active hands company was officially incorporated
30:49from that point we have grown year on year and last year we turned over 738 000 pounds
30:57our products aren't just aimed at people with spinal cord injuries we sell our own and other
31:01manufacturers products with an aim to support people with reduced hand function and we have some
31:05examples to show you today this is our general purpose gripping aid it was our very first product
31:10which rob designed many years ago and it is still our most popular today so as i pull
31:16the strap my fingers will be pulled onto the weight it'll give me a very firm grip on the weight
31:22so
31:23it can be used in many different situations from the gripping different items another of our newest
31:28additions is this adaptation which is designed to help people to operate aerosol cans with just a
31:33squeeze making them easy to spray we also have a mini version for perfumes and aftershaves and we are
31:39currently prototyping a version for nasal sprays we are looking for investment to help us increase our
31:45manufacture and design capabilities we look forward to your questions and hopefully your investment
31:52a one-stop shop selling products aimed at making the world more accessible
31:56is the offering from joe gumbly and rob smith just when there is stuff in the aerosol cans
32:03so don't aim it at stephen and push thank you
32:08the pair are seeking 75 000 pounds for a five percent share in their business bear mace won't work on
32:17me
32:19you need dragon mace to work on me mobility might be a market with meaning but is there a business
32:28worth
32:28backing for deborah meaden this pitch hits close to home
32:35so i don't know if you know my sister's in a wheelchair and she's got really um it's all about
32:41her hands because as long as she can do as much as she can with her hands she can stay
32:44independent
32:45so does it actually improve the function of your hands because that's emma's thing what she
32:49you know she's worried that if she doesn't use them she'll really lose function in her hands
32:54they're not designed to actually improve your function function they're designed to overcome
32:59the reduced function that you already have right so um rob can i ask how did you what was spinal
33:06injury do you mind talking about it that's okay okay what i mean how so i had a cliff fall
33:11accident
33:11um back in 1996. gosh a big shock because you were very active obviously if you were climbing big change
33:18in life so being able to do what you can as much as you can yeah is really important for
33:23you yeah yeah
33:27joe rob hi hi um well there's no other words apart from congratulations thank you got a great business
33:34some of these products i don't know how unique they are because some of the products i certainly
33:39recognize the grippers and the and the extending movable unit this um yeah so there are quite
33:47a few variations of those yeah um but um this one specifically has been designed for rob to put
33:53on independently do you mind showing me that because that's what i think that's quite key
33:57so um this is uh the way that this works here is not just a magnetic seal is also um
34:05vacuum seal so
34:06if i try to pull it off it's very secure it's not going anywhere but i can easily release it
34:11just
34:11by pressing this little tab and it'll come off easily yeah but i do know this this some of these
34:15products because we used to sell some of these for particularly on the tablets yeah and also to
34:20sell them for vehicle use so they used to go into vehicles yeah but you've taken it to another level
34:25really great and i can see how versatile it is when you moved it yes yes really really yeah it's
34:30really
34:31good it's got the pivot here and i'm moving around so yeah it's that i think is brilliant yeah
34:37rob and joe how are you guys hey good thanks um i just want to say congratulations as well i
34:43think the
34:43business is great um my nan is a wheelchair user so i could see how a load of these products
34:48would
34:48be very useful for her but the bit that's really excited me is um i do brazilian jiu-jitsu and
34:54there's
34:55loads of guys that have come from the military with all sorts of you know things that have happened to
35:01them in their lives but they're still very very active um so just a random question have um have you
35:07ever
35:07spoken to like you know the paralympics or anything like that to see if there's any way that they
35:12could implement some of these uh products in part of their training or we have some paralympians that
35:18use our products in their training um it's the individuals rather than the organization and rob
35:22is a paralympian also well no i'm not actually a paralympian i'm a para athlete i've not actually
35:27been to a paralympics but um yeah we have a few ambassadors who are paralympians and any notable names
35:33or um so um kylie grimes has been one who's a wheelchair rugby player um tully kearney yes has also
35:40won two goals last time amazing guys business wise so um started in 2007 did you say yeah and
35:50your turnover of 738 000 that's in one year yes that's the year that's just ended yeah that's impressive
35:58so so 738 000 pounds in turnover yes um and net profit 19 19 okay so you make your profit
36:05have you
36:06always been profitable we had one year so the year before it was um minus five uh net loss of
36:12five
36:12thousand and what causes the net losses um we we didn't increase our prices in line with what they
36:18were increasing to us because we're very price sensitive knowing that our customers struggle a lot
36:22it's all right the cost of living and yeah i am one of our customers and i'm very aware that
36:27it's
36:28difficult for people with disabilities particularly at the moment um so we were getting a lot of price
36:33rises and we didn't raise our prices enough um to cover that basically so we've addressed that now
36:39um and you have learned the lesson we have yeah i mean because to be helpful to your customers you
36:46have to have a sustainable business yeah and therefore you have to drive profit so there's no shame in
36:50that because otherwise you wouldn't exist would you yeah joe rob um in terms of um revenue growth
36:59what are you forecasting for next year uh yeah so next year we're thinking 900 um turnover with the
37:06same margins yeah roughly pretty much and do you currently own 100 of the business um so it's owned
37:13within our family so myself my sister and my dad and all the shares an investor changes that dynamic it's
37:20no longer a family business there's you know investors bring with them expectations of returns
37:25um and they often bring with them expectations of returns within a certain time period are you sure
37:31that that is what you want um it's always been a family business um and we like the idea of
37:39it
37:39continuing in family business for a certain amount of time we'll have to see you know understand you
37:44need to get some money out of it as well if people are investing so there could be options to
37:48to
37:48work out how to do that yeah what do you think next year when you hit your 900 odd k
37:55in revenue what do
37:57you think the net profit will be we're um projecting 60. okay and are you both taking income out of
38:04that
38:05um so i'm an employee so i have a salary yeah so we've have we have um about eight to
38:11ten employees and
38:13everyone gets a salary um and then the directors get a small dividend as well the reason why i'm
38:19asking that's quite important because at 60k profit if i own five percent of the company and we were to
38:24declare a dividend i'm going to get three thousand pounds and to get my money back is going to take
38:28me 25 years yeah that's a that's the challenge i think here yeah yeah guys i'm going to tell you
38:39all right your valuation is quite racy why do you think your business is worth 1.5 million
38:45i think you know we're quite well established already um it was two times the turnover um and we
38:52thought that was a fair well yeah but it's got a dry value so you know 20 times turnover might
38:58work
38:58if the if the profit is absolutely huge but in this case it's not your net profit is well you're
39:07saying 60 000 or 900 000 yeah i could put money in the bank and earn that i think we're
39:15still trying
39:15to catch up from all the price increases on our raw materials and some of the products we are buying
39:20yeah so so here's where i stand i won't i mean the valuation i can change but you've got this
39:26combination which is a lovely combination of wanting to do the right thing and helping people
39:31who've experienced the same things that you're so that's lovely the minute you get the investor in
39:37you get a slightly different dynamic and i worry that you would find a tension in the things that you
39:45want to do and also to give an investor what an investor needs which is a return i think i
39:51think
39:51this is brilliant and and i promise you you've just won yourself a new customer because i know my
39:57sister is going to be delighted when i go back and say there's a site you need to get onto
40:02but honestly
40:03i can feel this would be a really uncomfortable investment for me so um so i won't be investing
40:09um and and i am out but you know all credit to you and thank you
40:18joe rob um i think it's i mean i couldn't agree more with what what deborah said the more i've
40:23heard
40:23your pitch the more wonderful i think this business is but on the other side as an investor
40:27um i have a series of conflicting emotions um i'm not going to invest in the business i'm
40:33say that i'm out but i wish you the very best thank you rob and joe um
40:43having listened to all this there's definitely a remarkable story here however all these things
40:51come back to one thing to me you are a family business i am not an a passive investor
41:00all the things that i invest in i get involved in and i would probably drive you guys crazy you
41:06know
41:07um that's true
41:10no comment no comment and i think you don't need an investor
41:18so for that reason i'm out
41:26tiny and peter
41:30i think you you've you've created something out of a necessity actually
41:38the issue is that the product set doesn't generate even if you're starting to sell in the millions
41:44sufficient return and that's that's what i think is the problem here
41:51i really wish you the very very best i'm not going to invest and i'm going to say that i'm
41:56out
41:57um but good luck to you thank you um i'm actually really glad to hear that because in my world
42:03there's so many people that would benefit from this so you know even after this i would love to like
42:09keep in touch with you guys but i have no clue about the space so if i'm being entirely honest
42:14i was
42:15hoping someone like a tukar or peter would want to invest and then therefore maybe i could get
42:21involved because they would have the infrastructure and the network and the distribution etc etc
42:27um but they haven't so with that being said i'm also out thank you
42:33good luck okay yeah thank you cheers bye no deal for rob and joe their mission to make the world
42:41more accessible struck a chord but sadly it wasn't enough to secure the backing of the dragons
42:48it's a shame that we didn't get the investment but we see where they're coming from yeah so we'll do
42:53all right anyway yeah definitely one of those where you're trying to find a way to invest yeah i was
43:00hoping there was an angle honestly
43:04i felt in there that people believed and could see what we were trying to do
43:07and it's nice to get the positive feedback on that i think we'll yeah we'll follow up on that and
43:12carry on doing what we're doing because they were very positive about what we're doing already yeah
43:29i'm rom from london and i'm the founder of health and holistics so health and holistics offers a range
43:36of supplements which are very powerful and i wanted to spread these powers for everybody
43:45seaweed why do you buy it though when it's freely available you just go to the seaside do you
43:49cheers walking into the den today i feel powerful and strong and ready to take to the next level
44:04blessings dragons my name is rome and i'm proudly the founder of health and holistics i'm here today
44:10to offer a 10 percent equity for an investment of a hundred thousand pound what once started as a
44:17program under a non-for-profit youth organization has since evolved into a successful business turning
44:23over six figures built on the back of nature's most amazing superfood sea moss a powerful mineral rich
44:32type of algae which can be used to support joint health gut health as well as skin conditions
44:39i use cmos throughout my career as a muay thai fighter where i often experienced injuries and
44:46inflammation this experience lit the fire and i began to research more about cmos until eventually
44:52i introduced it at our youth fundraisers and the response was incredible this momentum led us to
44:59transition health and holistics into a standalone business now those same young adults don't just
45:04attend the program they have the potential to earn and have direction to date we have supplied
45:11planet organic with cmos as well as currently being on the shelves at whole foods uk nationwide the next
45:19step is supermarkets um i do have a um a product that we've been working on it's a juice with
45:26our
45:26cmos gel inside and i'd love to bring some around for you guys to try okay
45:32a wellness brand that advocates the use of cmos is the proposition from rome haggiga
45:39so the one that i've given you already is a grape juice this is a pineapple and ginger with lime
45:45both of the juices have cmos inside rome is seeking a hundred thousand pounds
45:51pineapple ginger might be good for the fruits oh yeah it's brilliant in return for a 10 percent share
45:57in his business i'd love to know which one was your favorite as well i'd love both of them
46:04rome's gel infused juices appear to have slipped down smoothly and stephen bartlett wants to find
46:10out more about the man behind the moss what is your background sure okay um
46:23at a young age i started martial arts um and then went on to study structural engineering
46:29i went on to work as an engineer in qatar dubai and kuwait upon my return to the uk i
46:35started my
46:35construction firm i was doing well um my passion has always been working with young adults um so what
46:42i did is i started a non-for-profit youth organization where i could take young adults and put them
46:47into
46:47different programs one of the programs that i launched was a careers program which allowed me to
46:51take these young adults um onto site to my construction uh business and my projects this
46:57program uh excelled and i launched more programs and was more programs to the point where i did put
47:04my construction business on hold to be able to commit to health and logistics what was the moment when you
47:10first tried cmos personally like what was that was there a eureka moment for you sure so at a young
47:15age when i while um at a young age i knew about cmos already because of my cultural background so
47:19i i grew up
47:21um my mother's persian um but i didn't always grow up at home with my mother i grew up in
47:26the
47:26residential residential system um the residential system yeah the youth system so i was with my
47:32mother until a young age but then i left i left when i was quite young um and then i
47:36was uh in
47:38different homes and i i until i until i was of age to be able to live by myself and
47:42that was because of
47:43me being a boyish young man um and yeah growing up in north london in tottenham i grew up with
47:52a lot
47:52of ideologies of what life should be like um until i got a grasp of what real life is well
47:58done thank
47:59you very much i appreciate it you've had a lot of odds against you so it's a really really inspiring
48:03story
48:04um let's talk about the business then so what year did you launch and can you give me an overview
48:10of what
48:10the numbers look like since then yeah sure absolutely so um we're just we're in our second
48:14year now our first year turnover was 123 000 um and uh our net our net was unfortunately a loss
48:22of 16 000
48:24um so what's the total revenue so far in your second year in our second year i believe it's about
48:3050
48:30uh approximately 55 and net profit is approximately 8 000. okay um my last question's on the branding
48:40i i i can see it from here um i'm not entirely sure who you're aiming at there's the brown
48:46packet top
48:46right there's a white packet there's these jars which look a little bit like cough syrup then there's
48:50these sort of more whole foodies style jars over on the left which have the brown labels it doesn't
48:57actually look like a brand it looks like a selection of products sure so all of the products that you
49:04see which are have got the whole foods color label that you mentioned the jars those are all our cmos
49:09products the other products those are not cmos products what do they have inside what's the
49:14so for example here we have a pure range it's just turmeric ginger green tea um up here we have
49:21shilajit
49:21it's another product completely you should you should really it's tough enough to to make a brand
49:27penetrate especially in this market what what you need to do here is to focus and actually the cmos
49:32narrative that you you gave me was original and unique for me because i'd never heard about cmos
49:37before and its health benefits the minute you stray into just general supplements everything gets more
49:42confusing and less distinctive my advice to you here would be go after cmos because that is a space you
49:50can own
49:54it's a space you can own it i've got to say that i totally disagree with steven and the reason
49:59i
49:59disagree is i think you've created like a very holland and barrett-esque identity you've got a very clear
50:07logo stand out there you've also differentiated with different color labels and that works and i know that
50:13that works because i sell millions of products doing exactly the same thing i think that this tastes
50:19absolutely fantastic i was not expecting it to taste as good thank you so much i really appreciate
50:26and also i go further i think you're a gift to humanity as well anybody that can go through life
50:33and then decide to give back the way that you have it's absolute credit i really appreciate it thank you
50:41sir i think it's you know yeah thank you sir i really really do appreciate your words they mean
50:55a lot they really do
50:59i'm a massive fan of cmos by the way like i think if you're afro-caribbean you understand what cmos
51:05is
51:05brilliant i use it my kids use it it's amazing i think all i wanted to understand was um
51:12just the competition because i found myself getting cmos from like you know like an afro-caribbean
51:18shop for example so who is your main competitor in this space so in this space we have we've got
51:24different competitors i would say one competitor is turning over 120 to 160 000 pounds monthly on amazon
51:31only and what would you say makes um health and holistics different to them sure well straight off
51:39the bat um our ethos our mission um where we are rooted from um as well as that my knowledge
51:48of cmos
51:49and the story of our brand i believe really makes us stand out
51:56hi rome yes sir a remarkable story thank you so much and i'm and i'm looking at you and i'm
52:02saying
52:03how do you make this into a problem because at the moment you've come in with a valuation of a
52:08million for a business that's turning over a hundred odd grand sure um how did you or whoever advised
52:15you said that it's worth a million pounds sure so the valuation i believe is justified um
52:21um based off the strong revenue that it has in its first year um without tapping into any marketing
52:29i appreciate that but but as we stand today sure um would you say it's worth a million pounds um
52:36mr mr tuka yes i would um the justification is based off of several factors not just one
52:42so speaking about our competitors uh there's a massive market to tap into on amazon which we haven't
52:48and with the retail contracts that we've secured there is there is there is lots of opportunity
52:54currently available at our doorstep to exponentially grow as well as a supermarket so what you're telling
53:01me is if all the levers are pulled in six to 12 months time the million valuation will be valid
53:09absolutely but not today
53:12you've done a great job but i'm contemplating are you here too early one um is the valuation too high
53:20too
53:21that's my concern
53:25i'm going to say where i am there's um there's so much work to be done here with this business
53:31and uh for that reason it's like really really difficult to get to a point of high conviction about
53:38how to take this forward and i think about the branding work we've got to do there's marketing
53:41work we've got to do there's so much to do here um and i just don't think that i i
53:47could do that on my
53:48own um but i think you're worth us trying to do it together
53:56and so for that reason i am going to make you an offer
54:00you've asked for a hundred thousand pounds for 10 of the business
54:06i'm going to offer you 33 and a third thousand pounds
54:15for 10 of the business which would mean that for this deal to go ahead we'd need at least two
54:20other
54:20dragons to come in with me and again you're a credit to the community you've helped lots of other
54:24people so this is an opportunity both to build a great business but also to pay it forward to a
54:28young
54:28man that i think um deserves his time for the universe to turn in his favor so that's my offer
54:32i think i'm going to jump in there as well i i would offer a third of the money for
54:3710 as well
54:39and i and i'm definitely going to be the third hundred percent
54:43i was absolutely i think that is a great great offer and i'm really i'm chuffed that stephen
54:50started that thank you very much look you've got three great offers you know that's because you're a
54:58great guy thank you and and i would be very willing to offer you a third on the same basis
55:0833 and a
55:09half for 10 percent thank you okay thank you very much listen i i couldn't be happier that you've got
55:21four offers i couldn't be happier i'm actually not your natural partner so i will wish you all of all
55:29the best and you're going to have a big choice to make now but i'm i'm going to have to
55:34say that i'm
55:35out you probably need to go and talk to the wall or maybe you don't need to talk to the
55:39wall thank
55:40you very much as well um okay dragons um i did come in here today with the honest with my
55:50goal of not
55:50not letting go of more than 20 of the business so based on that if you could share between the
55:58three
55:59dragons which three dragons if it was to be free dragons right because as you mentioned you're
56:06willing to put in a fern yeah um so if it is to be free dragons uh to be seven
56:11percent share rather
56:12than ten percent so then that equates up to 21 percent can i ask you a question yes sir um
56:18why why
56:1920 percent because this is my life this is going to be setting up for my children so i need
56:28to bring
56:28it in how about this then i'm going to throw this out to a lifeline if if we were returned
56:33our money
56:34um i'd personally be happy to be happy to drop down to the seven percent you've described providing
56:40our capital is returned within say 24 months sure would you um peter tuka i'd agree to that yeah
56:48you would well the thing is now you've got to work out what the offer is do you want
56:53three dragons or four dragons i would rather three dragons for sure hundred percent that's an easy
56:57choice and who would you want to work with okay sure it's that time it's that time
57:08okay um pico thank you very much for your offer um but i'd like to go with um stephen peter
57:16and tiny
57:24uh well done well done rome has brought it home you're so much bigger than me securing the support of
57:33a top dragon trio you got tall tiny medium there you go good luck and departing the den with a
57:42six
57:43figure sum boom the thai boxer turned businessman bought his corner to negotiate a favorable deal
57:52it's time now now it's time his pitch proving a knockout with peter jones wow that was an emotional
58:00roller coaster tearing up there oh wow yeah oh my goodness
58:08i want to go and see my children and give them a squeeze and tell them pop are done
58:22next time jenna you have returned i have i came back we didn't scare you off no not yet there's
58:29still
58:29time i actually completely disagree with steven vampire that's not that is amazing this would be
58:36the only money we raise over the next 12 months that's not enough you have no cash you're currently
58:40insolvent oh my god my inner child is so excited to build that does he look like a cyber man
58:45you
58:45don't watch doctor who do you he looks like a cyber man from energy bills to student loans it's the
58:54podcast that pays listen to martin lewis on bbc sounds this new series is paying dividends stay with us
59:01here on bbc one for the apprentice next
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