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The Beat With Ari Melber - Season Episode 242
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00:00Welcome to The Beat. I'm Ari Melbar. And we begin with, of course, this bombshell that is shaking Washington.
00:05If I don't usually yell bombshell at you at the top of the hour, that's because while there's a lot
00:10going on and we're covering it all, we don't have a story like this every night.
00:14And this is politics, pure politics and real incompetence coming out of the Trump White House.
00:22This is a bonkers off the record interview. If you have been near a TV or phone, you've probably heard
00:26some of it.
00:27But I'm going to walk you through how the number one person in Trump's White House, the chief of staff,
00:32Susie Wiles, has basically torched the place rhetorically with brutal assessments.
00:37Again, Trump's number one aide. So she sees a lot. She's in the special meetings, the off the records, classified.
00:44And what she describes inside this Trump White House is a complete rebuke on so many issues.
00:52She says Donald Trump has a, quote, alcoholics personality.
00:57She also hits the president's policies on tariffs, immigration and something that Trump has tried to have both ways and
01:04denied.
01:04She admits they are unlawfully prosecuting rivals. I'll get into how that works.
01:09But that's the headline. That alone would be a big deal.
01:12She might have just doomed more than one case that Trump is trying to bring.
01:16So there's the ethics of this. Do people uphold the Constitution?
01:20And then there's the competence of this. If your job is to advance the president's agenda, well, through these comments
01:27to Vanity Fair, she has compromised his agenda, ignited a firestorm.
01:32She's the ultimate insider. She's close to Trump.
01:34I can tell you during the campaign when we would reach out to the campaign managers, she shared the duty
01:38basically with one other person as kind of the top.
01:40And you couldn't hardly ever get comments from her. No interviews.
01:45Trump has shouted her out.
01:49So, Susie Trump, do you know Susie Trump?
01:53Sometimes referred to as Susie Wiles, Susie Trump.
01:56She's the great chief of staff, but the chief of staff and she's fantastic.
02:01Where's Susie?
02:04Susie, come on, Susie.
02:07Look at Susie. Susie's the greatest.
02:10That's a rare shout out from Trump to a staff level individual.
02:14Returning the favor here, Wiles says that he, Trump is like her father, an alcoholic.
02:20Quote, Trump has an alcoholic's personality.
02:22He operates with a view there's nothing he can't do. Nothing. Zero. Nothing.
02:27Now, Wiles is not actually saying that Trump, who famously doesn't drink at all, is some kind of alcoholic, but
02:32that he has an alcoholic's personality, which is striking coming from her working with him all day and night for
02:38all these times that this is how she views him.
02:42She contrasts J.D. Vance with Rubio, who says has some principles, while Vance went from opposing Trump to supporting
02:50him for what she characterizes as rank, self-interested opportunism.
02:56Again, Trump's top aide. Still employed by him, by the way.
03:00Quote, Vance's conversion came when he was running for the Senate.
03:03I think his conversion was a little bit more political.
03:06She says Vance has been a conspiracy theorist for a decade, not exactly praised for someone who is a heartbeat
03:13from the presidency.
03:15She labels the leader of Project 2025, who now runs OMB, as a right-wing absolute zealot.
03:21And as for Elon Musk, who, unlike, say, Vance, has had more of a falling out with the administration, she
03:27says he's an avowed ketamine user, an odd, odd duck, as I think geniuses are.
03:32You know, it's not helpful, but he's his own person.
03:36Discussing some of the policies that the Trump administration advanced through Musk, for example, like going after USAID, foreign aid,
03:43she says she was initially aghast.
03:46And she says she told Musk, you can't just lock people out of their offices.
03:50No rational person could think the USAID process was a good one.
03:54Nobody.
03:55That is, again, quite the condemnation.
03:58One difference there is she may be putting the blame at someone who's no longer in the administration.
04:02But she goes on in this absolute bonkers Vanity Fair interview on the economy.
04:06There was a huge disagreement over whether tariffs were a good idea, some predicting disaster.
04:11She asked Vance to pump the brakes, but Trump went forward.
04:15Again, Vanity Fair writing, Wiles believed a middle ground on tariffs would ultimately succeed.
04:19She said it's been more painful than I expected.
04:23Again, these are the quotes of Trump's top aide, and they are quite different from the usual defenses we hear.
04:30And they are more credible attacks on the administration, its policies, and some of its top members.
04:36Why and how this came out, why she talks like this, we'll get into in conversation.
04:40But I want to go to the enemies list here, because more than anything else, which might just be politically
04:45embarrassing,
04:45Wiles has taken action through these words tonight.
04:49She has given evidence and confirmation of an unlawful prosecution on the enemies list charges,
04:54which means what she says, because she's a government official, is now probably court evidence
05:00and could doom some of the cases you see on your screen.
05:03As for the Trump revenge plots, she says, I don't think he's on a revenge tour.
05:09In some cases, it may look like retribution.
05:11And there may be an element of that from time to time.
05:14Who would blame him?
05:15Not me.
05:16So that's sort of her warm-up.
05:17And if that's all she said, okay, debatable.
05:21Then, when Vanity Fair asked about New York Attorney General Letitia James,
05:24who the DOJ has now thrice failed to indict,
05:28she says, well, that might be the one retribution.
05:33That is a confession.
05:35That is potentially admissible in court.
05:37You have a top White House official admitting it's retribution.
05:41Cases are keeping score.
05:42Retribution is exactly the kind of evidence the defense counsel needs to get the case tossed.
05:49As for James Comey, she says, I mean, people could think it does look vindictive.
05:53I can't tell you why you shouldn't think that.
05:55I don't think he wakes up thinking about retribution.
05:58But when there's an opportunity, he will go for it.
06:01This is meaningfully negative for the DOJ case and plan against Comey.
06:08If she meant to hurt her own side, okay.
06:11If she didn't, that's why some people maybe aren't as good at interviews.
06:15Weill says she has a loose agreement with Trump that the score settling will end
06:20before the first 90 days are over.
06:22That was a planned deadline that he didn't meet because she admits the score settling continues.
06:28This is evidence of what is called selective prosecution, which, A, can get the case tossed.
06:34B, can get other people in trouble, depending on how judges view it.
06:38Weill says today the article is a disingenuously framed hit piece on me
06:42with significant context disregarded.
06:47Notice what she does not say, and which makes her admittedly a little different than some around Trump.
06:53She doesn't deny saying these things.
06:55She doesn't say the whole thing is made up.
06:57Because she did say these things, apparently.
07:00And there is good record of that.
07:01And some of these things will have repercussions long beyond the headache
07:06that many Trump aides and the president himself are likely nursing tonight.
07:09We have a Trump White House veteran turned critic, Sarah Matthews,
07:13on this very story when we're back in 90 seconds.
07:19Trump White House rocked from the inside, and we have a special guest on this banana story.
07:24Sarah Matthews is a former Trump White House veteran and spokesperson for Home of the Brave.
07:29There you can see her on the job watching what was likely a press briefing.
07:32And while they got their work cut out for them tonight, your reaction when you read this interview?
07:38It was honestly refreshing to see, because Susie Wiles gave an honestly brutal assessment of the Trump administration.
07:46She admitted that the tariffs have been more painful than she thought they would be,
07:51something that obviously the Trump administration has been vehemently defending these tariffs
07:57and saying that they're good economic policy.
07:59She admitted she was aghast when it came to the handling of Elon Musk dismantling USAID,
08:06that they should be more careful with their deportations,
08:09and cited an example of when the United States deported a U.S. citizen who was four years old and
08:16battling cancer.
08:17And then, obviously, her assessment of some of these cabinet officials across the board,
08:22her admitting that Attorney General Pam Bondi whiffed on the Epstein files and the handling of that,
08:29calling Elon Musk an odd duck and an avid ketamine user.
08:34I mean, this is not something that you would typically hear from a current sitting chief of staff in the
08:41White House.
08:41This is something that would usually come out in a memoir.
08:44Yeah, memoir. I'll let you finish.
08:46I'm going to leave these quotes on the screen for folks coming home.
08:48There's a lot going on. These are all quotes here from the number one official in Trump's White House.
08:54Alcoholic personality for the president.
08:56J.D. Vance, a conspiracy theorist, which means, in her view, that he doesn't deal in facts or is trustworthy.
09:03I mean, that's what that means.
09:04And the attacks on Musk, as you mentioned.
09:06Do you have a view of how this came out?
09:09Is this one of those situations where it's not a live TV interview,
09:13there's not an audience of a thousand at some ballroom in D.C.?
09:16And so she kind of got her momentum going?
09:19Or what do you think happened here?
09:22Yeah, she can't write these off as political gaffes.
09:24She sat down with this reporter 11 times.
09:28And so even though the White House defense is saying that these quotes are taken out of context,
09:33they're not saying that the quotes aren't accurate.
09:35Obviously, this reporter has all of these interviews on tape and could dispute that.
09:39And he has said as much.
09:40But the context really doesn't matter when you're looking at the things that she said.
09:45I don't know what the context would be that Elon Musk, who she let dismantle USAID and will
09:51potentially lead to the millions of deaths across the globe because of us withholding
09:56this aid, that he's an avid ketamine user.
09:59I don't know what the context, what more context you need there.
10:02And so I just think that they're going to try to say that this is taken out of context.
10:07But the thing is, it's that she was a willing participant for these interviews, that many
10:12of senior officials also participated in a glamorous photo shoot for Vanity Fair for
10:17this article.
10:18And if I had to guess, I think that she says in the article that she only saw herself staying
10:24on the job for six months.
10:26The first interview that she did with this reporter was prior to Trump's inauguration.
10:31So I think she agreed to be part of this, thinking that she would have already left the White
10:36House, but obviously she's still on the job.
10:38And so I think initially she agreed, though, because she wanted to set herself up for her
10:42legacy to be viewed as the adult in the room during Trump 2.0.
10:47But now that she's still serving in this capacity and these quotes are coming to light, it does
10:52not make her look great.
10:54Really interesting.
10:55And again, you've been on the insides here reminding people that sometimes there are
10:58arrangements where people say, oh, they're going to be this political or loyal for this
11:02amount of time and a government job has all kinds of limits, but then they're planning
11:08ahead with the publishing cycle, et cetera, and that she may have kind of outmaneuvered
11:13herself if she thought she was going to be in the clear.
11:15They certainly don't read like things that you'd say about your current boss at any job,
11:19let alone the White House.
11:20I also want to ask you about some of the substance that gives us a little window into how these
11:25people may approach their jobs.
11:26As you know, in the first term, there were many people around Trump, including General
11:31Kelly, who said they agreed with a lot of the agenda, but they wanted to help him be
11:36a better version of himself or a better version of these goals.
11:41And people can debate that, you know, till the cows come home.
11:44But there's evidence of folks trying to do that on foreign policy, on economic policy, even
11:50in how he dealt with Mueller initially.
11:52Second term, we all know, is a different story.
11:54What did you think of her description, which isn't as controversial, sounds true, that
11:59the first term people were trying to do that and they got rid of those people in this term,
12:03she views her role as only distilling Trump.
12:07Like her view is just getting Trump to be anything he wants to be through government,
12:11which of course leaves out what most White Houses have, which is smart people with experience
12:16saying to the president, well, this might not be legal or here's another way to do it.
12:21And does that explain both why this term is more unrestrained, but also in many ways less
12:26less effective?
12:28Yeah.
12:28As you noted, Chief of Staff John Kelly in the first administration, he saw himself as
12:34the guardrails, that he was trying to curb Trump of his worst instincts and prevent any
12:38unlawful activity.
12:40Whereas Susie Wiles admits herself that she almost sees herself as his enabler, that she is there
12:46to facilitate his agenda and she'll pick and choose her battles of when she pushes back
12:52on.
12:52She talks about an example where she was surprised that he wanted to pardon all 1,500 January
12:586 rioters.
12:59But at the end of the day, that she let it happen, that this was something he wanted and
13:04that he wanted to see all these folks pardoned, even the ones who committed violent acts.
13:08And she couldn't win that battle.
13:11And so she just chose to go along with it.
13:13And I think that that is good that it sounds like she does push back on him occasionally.
13:19But obviously, at the end of the day, she sees herself as just there to carry out his
13:24agenda, even if it's at the detriment of the American people.
13:28Yeah, it's interesting you say that she is a bit of his enabler, given that she describes
13:33him as an alcoholic personality.
13:35And the hangover is felt by a heck of a lot more people than just him when you have this
13:40much power.
13:41Sarah Matthews, thanks for being here.
13:43We have insiders now previewing this Epstein Files deadline.
13:47Three days out.
13:48Gretchen Carlson is here.
13:49That should be interesting.
13:51But next, we're going to turn to one of these special reports that we have been working on.
13:55We think it's important.
13:56It is about fighting Trump censorship and billionaires.
13:59And it's next.
14:03President Trump and his corporate allies are pushing hard to control more media.
14:08The Ellisons, Trump allies, now trying to buy CNN and its parent company in that hostile
14:13bid.
14:14They already bought CBS, which led to 60 Minutes leader resigning over meddling in journalism
14:19and newsroom changes that came later.
14:22CBS also settling a thin Trump lawsuit to appease the White House.
14:26They ended Colbert's show.
14:28Critics see the pattern you see here, limiting people who stand up.
14:33Now, that company did say that the Colbert decision was financial.
14:38Other outlets, though, as you see, have been settling Trump suits left and right.
14:42Some, like Facebook, curbing fact-checking itself.
14:45Others are fighting.
14:47Kimmel and his supporters beat Trump's FCC, while newspapers, like the Times, are fighting
14:53back when Trump sues.
14:55So when we hear about standing up or speaking truth to power, it matters right now.
14:59And it can clearly also have consequences for the people willing to do it.
15:04We know that America faces big challenges on civil rights and political violence.
15:09It helps when we face them with independence and courage rather than normalizing them.
15:15Ibro Darden is known to many for doing exactly that with his voice and his radio show with Laura Stiles
15:23and Peter Rosenberg in New York and through their interviews with politicians.
15:26He has spoken as an advocate for working people, forgotten neighborhoods, challenged right-wing extremism, and also problems he saw
15:36with D.C. Democrats.
15:38And I mention this now because there's news on this tonight.
15:42But for context, consider that in the year after the January 6th insurrection, when some were saying, let's just move
15:49on, or that was just an aberration and not who we are as Americans,
15:52I want to show you Ebro's corrective declaration.
16:00American exceptionalism.
16:03We're the best.
16:04We're the greatest.
16:05Even right now, people who saw January 6th will fix their lips and say, this is not who we are.
16:11What are you talking about?
16:13We just saw it on television.
16:14It's clearly who we are.
16:15What are you saying?
16:17Donald Trump wins presidency.
16:18This is not who we are.
16:20Did you go to the rallies?
16:21Did you see what was happening on TV?
16:23It's clearly a part of who we are.
16:26Police kill black men in the streets.
16:28This is not who we are.
16:29It's been who we are since inception, since day one.
16:34Why do we keep acting like we're not this?
16:36Because we're programmed to think that we're better than we actually are.
16:41And we're going to have to come to terms with that if we're actually going to improve.
16:45And until we do, there won't be improvement.
16:47There's people who don't want to convict Donald Trump or any of his cronies because of the way it looks
16:53to the world.
16:54You know, we're not a banana republic.
16:55We don't, you know, jail our former politicians.
16:59We don't we don't do that here.
17:01Well, we might want to start.
17:03We might want to start and fast.
17:06Otherwise, we'll just have more of this.
17:12This is who we are.
17:14Some truths are hard.
17:16They're not always well received.
17:18Ebro and his co-hosts knew that when they spoke out on their radio show, Ebro, in the morning.
17:23They've referenced that.
17:28This dialogue right here that we're having on a public radio station doesn't happen.
17:32Eight o'clock in the morning in the biggest media market.
17:35No one's touching this.
17:36They are deathly afraid of touching this conversation.
17:40And 13 years in, that radio show was building a larger audience, began drawing more top politicians
17:47in the past few years than at its start, including a recent Andrew Cuomo interview as he was running
17:53against the Democratic nominee for New York mayor, which proved newsworthy.
17:58Ebro questioning Cuomo about his covid record, harassment allegations and his infamous late
18:03Trump endorsement until Cuomo apparently hung up on the radio interview.
18:08And then in a total breach, the station's corporate parent pulled that interview offline.
18:15In journalism, that is blatant meddling in the independent work.
18:20And it may have been a sign because tonight the news is that that parent company, Mediaco,
18:27has abruptly canceled the entire show, Ebro, in the morning.
18:31Right. The move was abrupt.
18:34There's no public plan for a new morning show yet.
18:36And Ebro publicly saying they were facing corporate pressure over their free speech,
18:41that major media outlets are folding up because they're trying to renew deals and licenses.
18:47And he said they need my blank talking anti Netanyahu, anti government progressive blank out of the way.
18:55He speaks candidly, as you see.
18:56He said talking about politics on a corporate run media entity is always risky.
19:04Fact check. True. A lot of the time.
19:07Now, that company, Mediaco, did not respond to requests for comment,
19:11which is a contrast, by the way, to the Ellison's Paramount.
19:14When they were asked about the Colbert cancellation, they denied motives of censorship.
19:19This company isn't saying.
19:22They're not publicly denying what Ebro says about that pressure and the Cuomo interview, etc., so far.
19:29This cancellation is news tonight because this is a loss for independent media and local media and diverse voices.
19:36And it fits these two interlocking corporate trends in our current MAGA era.
19:42Government censorship over here and then billionaires also controlling more media while they consolidate it over here.
19:52And that has obvious, basically sometimes unavoidable impact.
19:58It limits the reach of the very free speech that the Constitution is supposed to protect.
20:04This is bigger than right now or whether you agree with everything somebody said.
20:08It's their right to say it and have a free press.
20:11And in capitalism, the free press runs through these companies.
20:15We are witnessing the limiting of the number of people who can press the politicians for voters' benefit.
20:20And remember, it ain't supposed to just be TV hosts, let alone government-approved billionaire-owned stations.
20:29And this radio show that was just canceled, they did plenty of that.
20:35Hello, Secretary Clinton.
20:37Hi, how are you doing today?
20:39There has been a massive transfer of wealth from the middle class.
20:42We, the CBC, that introduced a package of bills yesterday that are about police accountability.
20:49We're advocating our communities.
20:51That's what I have faith in, is those hands knocking on doors, making phone calls, casting votes.
20:57Those are some of the candidates, many obviously now in office, who spoke on this show, Ibro, in the morning.
21:02And the hosts were out there, independent on politics and culture.
21:08Ibro also famously was an early critic of what he saw as Kanye West's emerging hate.
21:14He also confronted other artists about alleged battery against women.
21:18At a time where, in the culture, things can be just promotion, this was a place where people were really
21:25tested and debated.
21:27The other hosts, Laura Stiles and Peter Rosenberg, mixed culture with using that same platform to talk politics and civic
21:33life and have some hard conversations.
21:37I said, Kanye, the conversation's been open, bro.
21:43You're just not a part of it.
21:44And you're just chiming in right now because you got an album coming out.
21:48Are you having those conversations in your house about Black Lives Matter?
21:52You're talking about things you don't understand.
21:54And you're playing with things that people have died for.
21:58I keep saying I'm buying a Colin Kaepernick jersey.
22:01Because at least you can support him in that way.
22:02Because that's the only way I can support him.
22:04Congratulations.
22:05You played yourself.
22:06Because your dumbass, Kanye, and others like you have a tough time articulating your thoughts.
22:12And you need to shut up and sort to people who articulate thoughts well.
22:17There are people who study this, talk about this, have legislation on it.
22:22I mean, there's people who've spent their lifetime writing novels, books, research on this.
22:28But instead, your dummies jump up and use your platform to say nonsensical BS.
22:35Black women having the highest mortality rate during birth because doctors don't listen to black women.
22:44The market isn't about helping the middle class.
22:46Rosenberg, we're not going to debate people.
22:47The market, most people in the market aren't in the middle class.
22:51But thanks for your call, Kate.
22:52Why aren't we going to debate people?
22:54I don't think I've ever minced my words about my feelings about Netanyahu on this program.
22:58The immigrants that come here, that sacrifice so much.
23:01Our parents, our friends, our loved ones.
23:03The people that serve us every day.
23:06You know, that deliver our food, that fix our cars.
23:09A bunch of we do appreciate them.
23:11We take sexual assault here serious.
23:13And we can't, you know, get into details.
23:17Change the subject.
23:18I'm going to walk out.
23:19We don't have to talk about nothing else.
23:20We could be done right here.
23:22I get emotional when I start thinking about what the black church means to us.
23:31The spiritual component of black people is the unbreakable point.
23:39That's just some of what made this show significant to a lot of people and having a place to do
23:45that and broadcast it.
23:47And I just showed you the politics, which the hosts say they were censored for.
23:52Ebro in the Morning was also a huge hub known nationally for artists and culture.
23:57And tonight, as this show ends after 13 years, we pay tribute to that.
24:03Sometimes it's just words just come to me.
24:05I don't know where it's coming from.
24:06You just put all of the heat on the album.
24:09It's just like the beat, like, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb.
24:13I'm willing to work with anybody, man, that has talent.
24:16You expect me as a human being to not want to defend myself because I'm rich?
24:20I'm Dora the Explorer, like, bob, backpack, shorts, t-shirt.
24:25It's more about the positivity side, man, than the upliftment of, you know, having a beautiful black family.
24:32People, they have time to heal and they learn to live and they learn to love.
24:37We could talk slick all day as rappers.
24:39That's easy to do.
24:40That's like taking the easy way out.
24:42But what are you saying, though?
24:43People get mad when it affects them.
24:47They get involved when it affects them.
24:49There's more people hurting than eating in this world than anything.
24:52Who has done it better than me?
24:54Nobody.
24:55I back up any talk.
24:56I'm really slow jamming.
24:58You slow jamming.
24:58Well, I'm slow jamming all day.
25:01This radio show is ending, a loss for many listeners.
25:05Public reaction could still matter.
25:07We know the outcry against the attempted Kimmel cancellation was enough to ultimately reverse it.
25:14They had even sparked more interest and ratings in his free speech in the days after they beat Trump.
25:21But let's face it here.
25:23And yes, I'm speaking to you through the TV, but not everyone has national TV visibility or let alone Kimmel
25:29-sized fame or Kimmel's audience,
25:32which is a point he graciously made during that whole kerfuffle, advocating for others' free speech
25:38and telling people to pay attention the next time they come for you.
25:43And that's why it's easier, perhaps, to target voices who are less famous, who have fewer powerful allies, including in
25:49business,
25:50or who, as I'm telling you tonight, come from independent and diverse media.
25:55Now, these radio hosts are going to keep working on their show in the digital space.
26:00They've launched it on YouTube.
26:01You can Google it now if you want.
26:03It's the Ebro Laura Rosenberg Show.
26:08So the YouTube handle is Ebro Laura Rosenberg.
26:11At a time when some podcasts and online shows do reach more people than radio and TV,
26:17maybe these incidents and the effort to censor people will lead to other open, long-form digital shows and audiences
26:27connected.
26:28These hosts I'm telling you about, and their radio rivals in New York, The Breakfast Club,
26:32really have helped pioneer a format that is now replicated in so many podcasts,
26:37tackling a broad set of topics from culture to politics, not just staying in one lane because of some assignment.
26:44It's a style that, when it works, can be, like, casual with depth.
26:46And in Ebro's case, it's an approach to accountability that left him with some critics and detractors on the right,
26:53and then on the left, and in the mainstream, and even in core hip-hop.
26:59And that's okay, by the way.
27:01Being independent in politics, culture, or anything often means being willing to repeatedly upset people
27:08who are sticking to certain teams or ways or partisanship.
27:12And so I'm telling you about this, if you know this show, why it matters.
27:17If you're learning about it now, it's in the wider context of those problems I mentioned.
27:23MAGA big government censorship and corporate media consolidation.
27:28We'll keep bringing you those stories here, as we value our independence and you supporting independent media.
27:34Tonight we mark the end of a show that was about all those things.
27:38Independence and truth, as they put it, hard conversations, or what is sometimes called doing it for the culture.
27:47As for what that means or requires, well, I'll give the hosts the last word on that tonight.
27:57Originally, it was not doing it because you wanted to be famous or doing it for money,
28:03but I do this for forwarding the art of hip-hop.
28:07Hip-hop has always been an extension of the voice of not only the black nationalist movement,
28:12but also the community of the greater community of street culture, right?
28:17Whether you were black or Jewish or Puerto Rican in New York City,
28:21this was youth culture creating new things out of things that already existed, right?
28:26Like sampling and records and chopping records.
28:29So you were creating something new out of something that was already there.
28:39What did she tell you about the review?
28:44And specifically, did she tell you at all that your name appeared in the file?
28:48No, no.
28:49She's given us just a very quick briefing.
28:54Donald Trump has fielded many questions about Epstein.
28:57The administration has confirmed that he's in the files.
29:00Trump's chief of staff, Susie Wiles, told Vanity Fair, we know he's in the file.
29:04And he's not in the file doing anything awful.
29:07She says Trump was on Epstein's plane.
29:09He's on the manifest.
29:10They were, you know, sort of young, single, whatever.
29:14I know it's a passe word, but sort of young, single, playboys together.
29:20Not exactly the current defense we've heard from the White House, adding Trump and Epstein in a playboy sort of
29:27motif.
29:28But let me continue with what the Vanity Fair article says.
29:30She confirms Trump would sit for a deposition of Epstein if he had to.
29:34The administration has caught flack for breaking its vows of Epstein transparency.
29:39Then, of course, being forced into signing the law to force them to do that which they would not.
29:44Wiles says that Pam Bondi completely whiffed on appreciating that that was a very targeted group that cared about this,
29:51calling the Epstein documents given to conservative influencers binders full of nothingness.
29:55She's alluding to how the DOJ basically tried to trick people, adding there's no client list and it sure as
30:01hell wasn't on Bondi's desk.
30:02That is an open criticism of the sitting AG from the sitting chief of staff.
30:06The administration faces this Friday deadline now on that bill that was passed over Donald Trump's long,
30:13basically year-long opposition.
30:15Democrats say they'll take him to court if they break the law.
30:22If the administration withholds some documents unlawfully, we will know.
30:29If they abuse narrow exemptions to hide the truth, we will know.
30:38And there will be serious legal and political consequences.
30:44As we look towards this Friday's deadline, as well as the new fire on all of this with that interview,
30:50we're joined by a veteran journalist, Gretchen Carlson, who's also a women's advocate and co-founder of Lift Our Voices.
30:57Thanks for being here.
30:58Great to see you again.
31:00What is Susie Wiles thinking?
31:01What do you think of her Epstein comments?
31:03Her inside voice came out.
31:05Right.
31:05Look, she's actually saying what I think a lot of Republicans are saying behind closed doors, right?
31:11They don't have the spine to say what she has said.
31:15This must not be popular, though, in Mr. Trump's orbit today.
31:19They all came out, you know, and said, of course, that this is horrible media,
31:23and they attacked all of them sort of in course all at the same time.
31:26But look, this is all on tape.
31:28Eleven interviews.
31:29She said all of this.
31:32And President Trump cannot be happy about this tonight at all.
31:35I think it's highly ironic, Ari, because she's supposed to be the gatekeeper.
31:39She was like the control maven.
31:41And yet she's the one who is, I mean, I think honest, but in their minds probably out of control
31:47tonight.
31:48Yeah, they're going to be upset with her.
31:50She has, as long as she has Trump standing, she can be as strong as a cabinet member.
31:54But she's clearly now crossing with Bondi and trying to say, and maybe Trump likes it.
31:59Oh, it's not Trump's fault.
32:00It's not the White House's fault.
32:01This is all Bondi's fault.
32:03Then she talks about how she's aware of the nuances of the coalition.
32:08Again, Chief of Staff in the new interview says people inordinately interested in Epstein
32:12are the new members of their coalition.
32:14Interesting.
32:14People that I think about all the time, she says, because I want to make sure they're
32:18not just Trump voters, they're Republican voters.
32:20It's the Joe Rogan listeners.
32:22It's the people that are sort of new to our world.
32:23It's not the MAGA base.
32:25You know, to read between the lines here on an intramural MAGA fight, and I've interviewed
32:29a lot of these people, and you've been around them, it would seem that she, Wiles, is positioning
32:35herself as the true, knowledgeable sort of patron of all of this, and that Bondi misfired.
32:41Bondi doesn't get it, and some of the other people didn't get it.
32:44But what does that help her, really, if at the end of the day, it still hurts Trump to
32:48be in the files?
32:49Yeah, it doesn't help.
32:50I'd like to just focus in on what she said, though, about those voters, because I'm not
32:55so sure it's just the Joe Rogan new Trump voters that are affected by this.
33:01Remember, it was the MAGA base that demanded that the Epstein files be released.
33:06Now, do I think that they cared about the women, necessarily, the survivors in this?
33:11No, I think that they thought there were going to be a lot of top-level Democrats that they
33:15were going to...
33:15By the way, she also says in this interview that Bill Clinton was never on the island.
33:18Yeah.
33:19I mean, just to put that in perspective, because that was 100% against what Trump says.
33:23But back to these voters, I think it's been problematic for Trump in this term that he
33:27cannot control podcasters.
33:29He cannot control influencers.
33:32That is the...
33:32And now, ever-growing, he can't control members of Congress on the Republican side.
33:37But I think this is a much bigger percentage of voters than she said.
33:41She said this is 5% of the voters.
33:44I think it is much bigger.
33:45And I think the MAGA base...
33:47I think she's wrong.
33:47The MAGA base will be incredibly upset if these files are not released on Friday.
33:52Yeah.
33:52And that goes to the deadline that they're barreling towards.
33:55As for Clinton, you mentioned, I mean, she doesn't have to actively disagree with her boss.
33:58There are many ways to answer questions.
34:00We all know that.
34:00As you point out, she says on the Clinton front, quote, President Trump was, quote, wrong about
34:06that.
34:06He was wrong about the Clinton angle.
34:08As for Maxwell, which is leniency afforded to her, look, in journalism, we always try
34:15to track this down.
34:16We don't have all the details on what led to that unusual transfer.
34:20Wiles, interestingly, while being pretty critical of Trump on other things, says she and Trump,
34:24we'll put this back up, weren't consulted about that controversial trafficker transfer.
34:31The president was ticked, she claims, which also makes him look a little out of control
34:35of that.
34:36The president was mighty unhappy.
34:38I don't know why they moved her.
34:39Neither does the president.
34:40So I'll give you two points to respond to.
34:43One, the same thing of throwing Pam Bondi under the bus.
34:46Oh, look what they're doing over there.
34:48That's kind of Washington stuff, but it could matter if it hurts Bondi.
34:51And then two, if they think it's such a bad idea to give lenience to this sex trafficker,
34:57why don't they move her back?
34:59And why does he keep saying he doesn't know whether or not he would pardon her?
35:03I don't believe that for a minute, by the way.
35:05You don't believe?
35:05You think she's lying?
35:06I don't believe that for a minute.
35:08She said in that interview that Todd Blanche, deputy to Pam Bondi, was the one, former personal
35:13lawyer to Donald Trump, was the one who went down there on his own.
35:17It was his idea.
35:17I don't believe that for a minute.
35:19I think that this was orchestrated because it was just yet another tactic of delay, and
35:25it was trying to get the MAGA base off their backs by a performative interview with Ghislaine
35:32Maxwell, where she says that Trump did nothing wrong.
35:35Maybe that's true, but I think it was an effort to try and get Congress off their backs, the
35:41committees off their backs, MAGA off their backs.
35:43And I don't believe for a second that there wasn't a reward there by transferring her
35:48to that lower prison.
35:50And that plot, as you describe, is stupid, because getting her to say in public Trump
35:56did nothing wrong adds to the right-wing clamor for the docks.
36:00Oh, he did nothing wrong.
36:02Then the docks won't affect their side.
36:03Let's see the docks.
36:05Exactly.
36:05So it really kind of didn't make sense.
36:07It didn't make sense, although I think that that was part of the deal, supposedly, you
36:12know, say that Trump didn't do anything wrong, because then maybe it will all go away.
36:17I think if I was thinking about how they were trying to orchestrate it, that's what I was
36:21thinking at that particular time.
36:23The problem is that President Trump has kept this story alive for almost a year now, because
36:30he's the one that keeps bringing it up and tries to get rid of it with all these tactics.
36:35But it just evokes more news stories.
36:38And the more that he says that it's a hoax, that just irritates his base even more.
36:44And I think the biggest thing that changed this entire story was it moved out of MAGA
36:49wanting to know about this into the general population.
36:52It became part of popular culture, where if you went on the streets right now, I bet more
36:56people could tell you about Epstein than they could who the vice president of the United
37:00States is.
37:00I think that this has really gone into 80 to 90 percent of the general public having
37:05heard about the Epstein files.
37:08With 30 seconds to go, your preview for Friday, will we see will we see files by midnight?
37:12I think if we do, they're going to be heavily redacted.
37:16But I think that there will be some sort of an insurrection if not enough information is
37:22released about this.
37:23I really do.
37:24And as you heard from the Democrats, there'll be lawsuits and we'll have to see how this
37:29plays out in the courts if they don't release it.
37:31Right.
37:31And the lawsuits are sort of make my day because the Democrats have been dropping certain chunks
37:37just to get this back in front of everyone.
37:39If the DOJ hides and fights, then you have months of lawsuits.
37:43And who wouldn't cover that?
37:45I mean, now that we know how media works, of course you're going to cover that.
37:47The president signed this thing and now he's fighting his own law.
37:49You know, that kind of thing.
37:50So, Gretchen, always great to get your perspective.
37:53Appreciate you coming on the beat.
37:53When we come back, we'll hear more of the tributes, including Michelle Obama on Rob and
37:59Michelle Reiner.
38:04Tributes pouring in for Rob Reiner, who was found dead along with his wife Michelle on
38:08Sunday.
38:09Prosecutors now say the son of the Reiners will be charged with their murder.
38:13Michelle Obama praised Rob and Michelle in this new interview from last night.
38:20What they have always been are passionate people in a time when they're not there's not a lot
38:26of courage going on.
38:28They were the kind of people who were ready to put their actions behind what they cared
38:33about.
38:34And they cared about their family and they cared about this country and they cared about
38:38fairness and equity.
38:39And that is the truth.
38:42I do know them.
38:44Late night hosts also discussing Reiner's work, his legacy, his career and impact.
38:53He's one of the smartest and funniest people I've ever met.
38:56What a tremendous loss.
38:57And he leaves behind such a legacy.
38:59He was a man who set an example.
39:04And there's such a value in that.
39:07And we have to do everything we can to not make setting an example a lost art.
39:17It's the interview that rocked a White House that is used to some level of drama and chaos.
39:22Vanity Fair's really blockbuster interview with current White House chief of staff Susie
39:27Wiles, who says Trump has an alcoholic's personality.
39:30J.D.
39:30Vance is a conspiracy theorist.
39:31Musk, an odd, odd duck, among other charges about him.
39:35Now, insiders discuss how she is Trump's enabler.
39:40She, in the interview, defends the idea that a contrast to the first term is she's there
39:45to let him do anything as if there are no moral or legal boundaries on our constitutional
39:50republic.
39:51It is a contrast to how one of her key predecessors viewed the job.
39:55Take a look.
39:58When I was in the White House, for that matter, DHS, I was, you know, originally the conversation
40:06would be, you know, Mr. President, that's outside your authority or, you know, that's, you know,
40:14that's a routine use.
40:16You really don't want to do that inside the United States.
40:18When he would tell me that he wanted to do something, 100 percent of the time I check
40:24with the White House counsel, because oftentimes he wouldn't have the authority to do what
40:32he wanted to do.
40:35Following your legal authority.
40:38What a concept.
40:39That's our show.
40:40The weeknight starts now.
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