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00:00:16Hello everybody and you're all very welcome to another episode of the show. I hope you
00:00:21enjoy what happens here over the next hour or so. To find out who our first guest is,
00:00:26let me hand you over to our MC for the evening, the beautiful Fred Cook. Thank you, Tommy.
00:00:32Well, our first guest is Miss Alison Spittle. Hiya. Hi, Tommy. Alison, hello there. How are you?
00:00:44Great now. You look fab and full of energy. Thank you. Fred's sacked off pretty quick there.
00:00:51You kind of bounced on there. He's very much no eye contact, isn't he? Says your name and then he's
00:00:55gone.
00:00:55He's not allowed to make eye contact with the guests. Is he that? Has that been brought in now?
00:00:58What incident brought that on? No, it's just a fear of what might happen as opposed to what has happened.
00:01:03Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, look, we always must fear that. How are you? Good now. How's, are you still over in,
00:01:09for those people who don't know you, I know you as a stand-up comic. Yeah. And that you moved
00:01:15to London.
00:01:15I did. Is the last I heard of you. So what's been happening since? Still there. Still there, yeah.
00:01:21Living there now nearly five years. Moved just in time for lockdown.
00:01:25Glorious to spend the lockdown in Camden. And yes, still living there. Probably never going to come
00:01:32back to Ireland. And that's grand, you know, like you just have to, like, I don't know. I think I
00:01:37left
00:01:37Ireland and there was a part of me going, oh, maybe I'll come back. But like, the longer I'm gone,
00:01:42the longer I'm not coming back. And that's, that's cool. Do you know?
00:01:46What's the attraction of England for you? The attraction of England is, like,
00:01:51the same amount of rent that you have to pay that you're in Dublin and a bigger audience as well.
00:01:57And like, you know, I kind of had a TV series here and I was looking at how much I
00:02:04was making
00:02:04and then what the gigs I was doing. And I was like, I can't, I can't live in Ireland and
00:02:10do what I'm
00:02:11doing. Like, I'm not commercially a viable, I'm not commercially a big viable option to live in
00:02:18Ireland. So I have to live in England and be myself, but like kind of just hopefully make a living
00:02:24from
00:02:24it because it's weird, like, like living in Ireland and like, I was like famous enough to get a lift
00:02:31off people because people felt safe. They're like, oh, she's off the telly. She's not going to kill me.
00:02:36But I couldn't afford a car. You know, that kind of thing. But I'm not saying it in a complaining
00:02:41way.
00:02:42It's just like, that's the way it is. How did the phrase, I'm not a commercially viable option
00:02:48come to you. But what does that mean? It just means like, I should be able to, I should be
00:02:55able
00:02:56to like, because I'm doing club comedy every week that I'm not touring or like I'm gigging four nights
00:03:02a week. And it's kind of like to be a working comedian, the arse has fallen out of the working
00:03:09comedians industry. Like when I go to clubs and I chat to other comedians, their wives are doctors,
00:03:14their wives are psychologists. I feel like the NHS is propping up the club comedy community in England
00:03:20anyway. And then like in Ireland, like there wasn't even a club circuit, you know, that you could rely
00:03:27on. So you were doing your tours. You were like, if RT gave you something that year, it was good.
00:03:31But
00:03:31like, I couldn't kind of base my whole life on like, whether I got a series on RT or not,
00:03:38because it's very
00:03:39unlikely each year. You know what I mean? It's just, it is the way I didn't, do you know what?
00:03:44I was
00:03:45excited about going on this. And I was like, I don't know we could talk about that, but I'm like,
00:03:48I don't
00:03:49want to be like the harbinger of doom with like comedy. But I can. Let's start with doom. Yeah, let's
00:03:54start with doom. Let's keep going. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it. Your appearance has changed a lot since
00:04:01the last time I saw you. Yeah, I've lost weight. Yeah. Yeah, I've lost weight. I've like, I've lost, I
00:04:06went on the jabs,
00:04:07the Mount Jaro jabs, because. Is that like an, an exempt type thing? A exempt type thing. So like,
00:04:14two years ago, I nearly died. I had a thing called septicemia, which I got from cellulitis,
00:04:20which is like, basically, a nick got into my skin at some point, I think it was on the beach,
00:04:26and I got an infection in my blood. And then it took over my body. And it was like,
00:04:30my organs were starting to shut down. And the doctors, they told me I was pre-diabetic as well.
00:04:34And they said, you have to lose weight. And I was like, right. And it's the first time I've ever
00:04:39tried to lose weight, like actively tried, because I saw being fat as like rebellion.
00:04:44And I saw like, because like, especially being in comedy, like I would have people say stuff to me,
00:04:51and I always felt like it shouldn't matter how I look and stuff like that. And so it didn't make
00:04:56me want to
00:04:57change my appearance. And also, I definitely have a food addiction. Like I definitely kind of like,
00:05:03like, like, kind of like, filled, fill the hole. So it's funny because food,
00:05:09that thing about the, like, they came hand in hand. So I remember when, because the first way we
00:05:15judge people on stage is probably physically. Yeah. And when I first saw you coming, you were a large
00:05:22lady. Yeah. And it was almost like, oh, okay. You can say fat, Tommy. Well, yeah, okay.
00:05:30I don't mean in like, it's not like you, anyone can say fat. Fat is not like, I don't know.
00:05:35Why, why do you feel like you need to say large? It sounds like I'm attacking you. I think large
00:05:41is a,
00:05:41is a phonetically a nicer word. It is a nicer word. Yeah. Fat is a bit,
00:05:47fat is a bit, it sounds like, fat sounds like slap. It does.
00:05:50Because large is a kind of a, you can relax into it. It's elongated. Yeah. It's like a chaise lounge,
00:05:54isn't it? Large is chaise lounge. So you get, so there was, there was something that you, it looked
00:06:01like you were, there was a boldness in it or something. It was kind of a celebration. Yeah.
00:06:13Of what you were. And I, that's, that, I'm not, I'm not maybe making a lot of sense of that,
00:06:19but I, that's, that was my sense of it. All right, here we go. She's, she's, she's big,
00:06:25she's here. And she's not apologizing for it. Yeah. I like that. Thanks, Tommy. I think that's what,
00:06:30I don't know, like, I appreciate that that's what you thought. And like, I feel like it was
00:06:35definite, it's weird. Cause it's like, there's kind of two things, isn't there? There's like,
00:06:39that is the celebration. And also it's like, it would be silly of me to deny that it isn't also
00:06:44some sort of like coping mechanism is the wrong word, defense mechanism. Maybe I definitely like,
00:06:51especially like, I would wear mad clothes as well. I would, I'd wear mad clothes. And like,
00:06:57I did get told, like, I got told by men who I didn't fancy that I would be
00:07:04fuckable if I wasn't fat or whatever. But this was all stuff that wasn't like,
00:07:09I was like, okay, grand, but like, that's not, you know what I mean?
00:07:14Who says that?
00:07:16You'd be surprised, Tommy. You'd be surprised. Like, men, like, like, a man in his fifties.
00:07:26I don't know why they do. I think, I think people think as well, if you're fat, that you're stupid.
00:07:34Because, you know how not to be fat and yet you don't do that. And your life would be easier
00:07:39if
00:07:39you wasn't fat. So it must be like an intelligence thing. And like, I definitely got told about getting
00:07:46on Teddy that it would be easier if I was thinner. And it would be said candidly. And it would
00:07:50be said
00:07:50in a way that's like, I'm pissed off with the system. But this is how it is.
00:07:54Oh my God. I tell you, Alison, it annoys me.
00:08:00You look annoyed.
00:08:01Every week.
00:08:02Yeah. I can see it in your body.
00:08:05Every week, there are women on this show
00:08:10telling me things about men's behaviour. And it's sickening.
00:08:21It makes me so sad as well. I don't understand what's happening with men that they would say
00:08:29this kind of nonsense. Anyway.
00:08:33I think it's like a thing of like, I don't know. You can, you can psychologically analyse
00:08:38why people are like mean about it or whatever. Like, like, I'm very lucky in the way that like,
00:08:45I was never really interested in anyone romantically. And then like,
00:08:52then I did a long term relationship. But like, all of my fat women friends would be like,
00:08:58how did you get someone to go out with you? Like, how did you get them to like,
00:09:02they're so weird. And they would tell me like, that the fellas that they're seeing,
00:09:07they'll all be hugging and all that, but they'd never bring them to weddings or anything.
00:09:11So it's like a weird kind of like, I don't feel sorry for the fellas in that situation.
00:09:15Like, imagine living your life over like, the opinion of someone who probably doesn't care.
00:09:21Do you know what I mean? Like, it's just mad what people do to avoid a slagging.
00:09:25It's like, they, I think they change their lives so much. And like, slagging is not that bad.
00:09:30I get slagged all the time. It's actually grand. I'd rather be slagged and live my life.
00:09:35So I have lost weight, um, to go back to that. But like, I was really fucking scared.
00:09:41I could not stop eating. And I did not want to die. But I couldn't stop it.
00:09:45So then I was like, really, really, really scared.
00:09:49Yeah.
00:09:49Um, I had to, so I had sleep apnea.
00:09:52Oh yeah.
00:09:52So I had to like, get a sleep apnea machine, which is embarrassing.
00:09:55That was embarrassing. That was like, I was like...
00:09:58Nothing sexier than putting a mask on.
00:10:01Stop. Oh my God.
00:10:03Good night, love.
00:10:04Like you're a fighter pilot, you know?
00:10:06But what are you fighting death when you're sleeping?
00:10:09Do you know what I mean?
00:10:11And you'd always like, if you have a partner, you're going to sleep apnea.
00:10:14Wish me luck.
00:10:14Wish me luck, I'm gone.
00:10:18And it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's always like, yeah.
00:10:21I think that getting the machine is more for your partner.
00:10:24So they're not worried about you, that you're dying in your sleep.
00:10:26Because you always sound like you're going to die in your sleep.
00:10:28Yeah.
00:10:28So that was bad.
00:10:29And that was like, uh, because it's just like, it's, if you, it's a weird thing.
00:10:37It's like, it's like, I am losing weight.
00:10:39I am feeling better about myself because I like running now.
00:10:43I didn't like running before.
00:10:44My hobbies before were deliveroos.
00:10:47Now my hobby is like yoga and running.
00:10:49But I don't think I'm morally any worse back, you know what I mean?
00:10:53Totally, yeah, yeah.
00:10:53It's a weird thing to like admit the stuff that, admit even is a weird word.
00:10:57But to say stuff that like, it's different in your life now.
00:11:01And I feel so defensive of the person I was two years ago.
00:11:04Because I just think like, she was worthy of like, respect.
00:11:12I don't know why I'm crying, but I am.
00:11:14But fuck, it's just like, I'm going to get a tissue.
00:11:19I have a tissue here.
00:11:22Beautiful.
00:11:26These are lovely and soft as well.
00:11:28Very good.
00:11:29Very good.
00:11:31All right.
00:11:32Just let me sort out the nose.
00:11:33For last night, you should eat them.
00:11:34Should I, yeah?
00:11:37Eat your tears.
00:11:38So I'm over the whole food thing.
00:11:40Yeah, am I?
00:11:43Erm, but, what are we talking about?
00:11:47About like, being fat.
00:11:49Just the, the idea that the person that you are now
00:11:57is better than them.
00:11:58Is not the person that you were two years ago and that's,
00:12:02can you tell me about that perception of yourself that you're different now?
00:12:08When I was fatter and I didn't want to lose weight, I didn't think about being fat.
00:12:12Because I was like, well, it's me and I exist and there's other things that I need
00:12:16to think about and there's other things I need to do.
00:12:19I'm not going to change this, so why am I thinking about it?
00:12:22And now that I'm changing it, now that I'm changing my appearance and I see how differently
00:12:28I get treated because of my appearance, it kind of like, kind of makes me feel like,
00:12:36eh, a better word than feeling sorry.
00:12:40I've been like more angrier for myself a few years ago, now.
00:12:44I'm more defensive of myself now.
00:12:47How do you feel when you look back on?
00:12:49Photos of me being fatter.
00:12:51Yeah.
00:12:52Do you know, that's interesting.
00:12:54I feel fine.
00:12:55I go, sometimes I look at it and go, Jesus, I was very fat.
00:12:58Do you know?
00:12:59But like, that's, but I was.
00:13:02So, like, I have to like, it'd be weird of me, it would be weird of me never to share
00:13:09pictures
00:13:09of myself from years ago, because it's just like, like, I'm so proud of myself.
00:13:14Like, I don't hate myself.
00:13:16And that makes me, and I know like, definitely like, why I became, you know, definitely why I became fat.
00:13:24Like, I was fat when I was a kid and people would be concerned and stuff.
00:13:29And that made me, and definitely there was a ting of like, you won't be attractive if you're fat.
00:13:35And I was like, thank you.
00:13:36And it's really, I really kind of like, it irked me to be.
00:13:42Who would say that to you?
00:13:44Um, I mean, who says it to me now would be like online.
00:13:48It would be online.
00:13:50It would be like, there was this fellow once, this fellow once, he was like, so I was on this
00:13:55TV show on RT for, we were in Morocco.
00:13:58And the fellow opened the conversation with, I've just had a wank over you.
00:14:01And I was like, yeah, I didn't use my real name, and I'm sorry about that.
00:14:20Oh, Lord.
00:14:21I'm ashamed of myself now.
00:14:23Yeah, I know.
00:14:24Well, you weren't at the time.
00:14:26But, um, so he messaged, and I was just having the crack, and I was like, ah, you can't feed
00:14:31me saying that, and I was like, and also his profile picture was a picture of his son.
00:14:36So I was like, I, like, so it was a child, it looked like a child was talking to me.
00:14:39I was like, is this a child, or is this, you know, and he goes, ah, fuck off, you fat
00:14:44bitch, and he went into all this big, like, it went from, I, nothing, like, I say he wasn't
00:14:50even dry, and he was calling me a fat bitch.
00:14:53Like, do you know, like, it was mad how, like, it went from quick, from that to that.
00:14:58What, what do you think about being on stage?
00:15:01What's your, do you have a, do you have an understanding of it, or a desire?
00:15:07I think, I think I feel powerful.
00:15:10I don't think I, like, I don't know, I think it's like, I felt a bit like from,
00:15:17from my teenage life, and my childhood, I was a bit like a rodeo clown.
00:15:21Like, I would come out and tell jokes after, like, a big incident, or something like that,
00:15:27to make everyone kind of feel better, and the feeling I got doing my first gig was like,
00:15:32I've never felt it since, I never will, but it was incredible.
00:15:36It was like this adrenaline, and I'd say the gig was shite.
00:15:39You think, I think back to the jokes that I did, and I'm like, that cannot be good.
00:15:44Yeah.
00:15:44But I felt powerful. Like, I genuinely felt like, I felt like no one could hurt me up there,
00:15:51and I could just express myself freely, so that's what I did.
00:15:55And I don't feel, any other part of my life do I feel that.
00:15:59But also, it comes very naturally to you, you're a natural,
00:16:05truth teller and underminer at the same time.
00:16:08Yeah, thank you.
00:16:08So you say something, and then you whip it, you destroy it again. So that, and that's not a,
00:16:14that seems effortless. That seems like a natural way for you.
00:16:18I'm really proud of the past two shows that I've done. People have gone, there's so many gags,
00:16:23and I'm like, yeah, because I intentionally, well, I intentionally wanted to say some, like,
00:16:29it was like the story I had, it was all about, like, do you know what it was all about?
00:16:33The show
00:16:34called Wet, and it was about, like, aquaerobics, and sexual coercion, and it was going to be like,
00:16:39it's just observational comedy. I, I just.
00:16:42Yeah, but it was craft that I didn't know I could do.
00:16:49Hmm. You're fearless, Alison, you're,
00:16:54and there's a wildness, and an honesty, and a charm,
00:16:58um, to your stand-up, and I'm delighted to hear that you're committed to the craft of writing jokes,
00:17:07because that coupled with your perceptions and your fearlessness is an unusual and
00:17:20exciting combination of things. So, so power on, like, do you know what I mean?
00:17:25Thank you, man. That's such a lovely, yeah. Are you touring Ireland soon?
00:17:30Yeah, I am doing Vicar Street. Good woman, wow. Yeah. What's the name of the show?
00:17:34It's, well, it was originally going to be called Fat Bitch. I wanted to call it Fat Bitch,
00:17:40but the Edinburgh Fringe were like, we can't put that on a poster, and I was like, well,
00:17:43what about fat? And they were like, no. And the parents of me were like, no.
00:17:53And so I've got it big. So it's a euphemistic thing, but it's all about like,
00:17:58uh. It's called, I've got it big. I've called, it's called big. Just big. Big. Okay. Yeah.
00:18:01Big. Nice, nice euphemism. It's a cute little thing. Yeah, yeah.
00:18:05Uh, thank you so much for coming on to the show. It's been such a pleasure talking to you.
00:18:09Ah, no matter. It's been great. It's been great. Oh my God. And I only cried a few times.
00:18:14Thanks so much. Thanks, Alison.
00:18:29Well, welcome back to the second half, everybody. Freddie, who's next?
00:18:34Tommy. Our next guest is Joe Kerrigan.
00:18:48You're walking on like a cowboy. I have something to tell you. Do you?
00:18:58Or I should say, perhaps I am here on behalf of themselves. The good people. The other world.
00:19:05Sit down there now. I will. Now I know where I know your name from.
00:19:12I have some books. Have you? I think at home that you've written.
00:19:17And I can't remember what they are. There would have been Old Ways, Old Secrets,
00:19:24Brehon Laws, Irish Fairy Forts, Portals to the Past. Yeah. A few others as well,
00:19:30but those were the ones mostly that were in the field I'm chasing at the moment,
00:19:33which is bringing back our old culture, our old beliefs, our old ways. The way we were for thousands,
00:19:41millennia, when we had our own beliefs, our own druids, our own spirits.
00:19:46Tell us about the Brehon Laws. We should never have got rid of them. Yeah. Tommy,
00:19:51we should never have got rid of these. They were evolved out of nature. They were created by the
00:19:57people for the people. They weren't imposed on us by somebody on high who said, this is the book and
00:20:01you're going to follow us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We started when we were communities in Ireland back
00:20:05in ancient times. We got together in our little community in our village and somebody did something
00:20:10bad. He, you know, you let your pig out of the garden and you trampled my garden and the people
00:20:14that shouldn't happen. So they worked out a plan that if you did that, then you would have to pay
00:20:20recompense to me. You might have to give me one of your pigs. Or, and then they would make a
00:20:24rule
00:20:24that it didn't happen again. And you had to mend your fences also. So everything that happened,
00:20:29that went wrong or that went well, you made a law to go with it. So it evolved out of
00:20:34natural,
00:20:34normal living. So stuff like, say we go to the extreme now, say for murder, if you killed your
00:20:42brother or a neighbour. We did not go in for killing in return. I mean, when you think about it,
00:20:49what sense is there? I mean, you kill my husband and I immediately have you killed. What's that
00:20:55going to do? What good is that going to do to anybody? There am I, without bereft, without
00:20:59anything. So you would punish, you would have to pay the honour price for my husband, which would be
00:21:04hefty. And you would also have to pay recompense and you would probably be ruined. And you would in
00:21:10future be at the lowest level, having to work your way to just to live. There was a punishment for
00:21:16people who had really not only had you killed my husband, but you weren't even sorry for it,
00:21:20and refused to be sorry. You would be put beyond the ninth wave. You're put into a boat without
00:21:26oars or provisions. And you're sent beyond the ninth wave, which is further than the tide could
00:21:32bring you back in. And you were left to the gods to decide what to do with you. If you
00:21:38came ashore
00:21:38in another land, they could kill you. Oh, God, they might put you there, but you could not come back.
00:21:44And it would be up to the gods to decide what to do with you, because we believed in our
00:21:48nature
00:21:49spirits being stronger than we were. And they would decide. It was not for us to take, you might have
00:21:55decided to take someone's life. But it is not for us to decide to take it from you. We had
00:21:59so many
00:22:01sensible laws. Tell me about laws in terms of marriage, like was there? Oh, that was great.
00:22:07And divorce and stuff. Yes. Women were a lot better off, as you probably know, in ancient Ireland,
00:22:12before we had these rather more stringent rules coming from other countries. Women were equally,
00:22:18if not more important than men. They were honoured for what they could do. They had the miracle of
00:22:22bringing forth children. They were also considered to be rather more sensible in argument.
00:22:28This is probably something you wouldn't agree with me about. But the women, when people got married,
00:22:34they couldn't get married for a year and a day, which is sensible when you think of it, Tommy.
00:22:38Yeah. I mean, how do you know if you're going to like someone in a year's time? There might be
00:22:41great lust or great ideas, but you don't know if you're going to like them or not. You would vow
00:22:46to try it for a year and a day. And if it didn't work out, you came back and you
00:22:50unfasted. And no
00:22:52problem, nothing at all. If children had occurred in the meantime, there was no shame to that. The children
00:22:57went with the mother and there was none of this nonsense. Ah, right. Okay. Okay. And I heard this
00:23:01beautiful phrase as well in one of the old Irish stories, um, about a couple who were pledging
00:23:07themselves to one another. And the man said to the woman, which I think should replace the
00:23:15Catholic wedding vows. He said, for as long as you want me, I'm yours.
00:23:22Oh, I like that. Isn't that beautiful? I think that's a beautiful way of putting it.
00:23:27Um, I don't know. Christianity has a lot to answer with its rules and its regulations.
00:23:31It wasn't the one we had when we had our own people, but you could get divorced also,
00:23:35even if you've been married for years. Yeah. And there were some strict rules against men.
00:23:40I'm not sure I can put it on the show here. Go on. Of all the shows, you can put
00:23:45it on this one.
00:23:45All right. Well, if you became rather too gross and fat for, um, indulging in normal,
00:23:54happily connubial bliss, I could divorce you. Wow. Well, you could. It was practical.
00:24:01Yeah. It sounds, any of the laws that I hear about this, this, they seem to have more soul
00:24:06in them or something or more sense. They had more reality in them, more practicality.
00:24:10They were laws were to care for everybody. And there were strict rules governing how you could work.
00:24:15The thing was, you didn't take more out of the earth. Yeah.
00:24:20Then you gave back to it.
00:24:23Does, does our connection now with those old laws and those old ways of seeing our relations to one another,
00:24:33does the link seem quite weak?
00:24:35It seems desperately weak. We've got so used to English laws and the way things are done,
00:24:41imposed on us, that we don't go with the old ones. I mean, women's role, for example,
00:24:46has never been the same since, since Nick. No, we don't have the link we did, but we should.
00:24:51We're all like having old religions or old beliefs. The very least we could do is know about our Brehon
00:24:57laws,
00:24:57because they were ours and they came naturally from our people and they make sense of our life and our
00:25:03world.
00:25:05But was there opposition to Brehon law from the church, do you think?
00:25:11Yes. When Christianity came galloping over here from Rome and it was Roman Catholicism,
00:25:17it was not, its original founder, I imagine, was a very gentle man who wanted people to love each other.
00:25:21By the time it got to Rome and they got their hands and it had turned into a pretty vicious
00:25:25religion.
00:25:25And naturally they wanted to get rid of it. They didn't want the power of the Brehans at saying things.
00:25:30They wanted the priests to be, the priests were to be the new Druids, the new Brehans.
00:25:34But of course, priests don't know anything except the liturgy and the church. They don't know anything about it.
00:25:38The Druids would have spent dozens of years, 20 or 30 years, learning all the different things,
00:25:44all the old ways, all the old legends, all the old laws and they would have known about the stars
00:25:49and the moon and exactly when the solstice was going to happen and the weather, well,
00:25:53the weather was going to change and they could foretell things by using a wren.
00:25:57It was lovely using a wren to foretell things. You didn't slaughter them. The Romans used to do that.
00:26:02They'd cut a bird in half and look at his entrails. I mean, how helpful is that?
00:26:05So what was the thing with the wren then? The wren, the king of all birds, he could foretell.
00:26:12They would watch a wren. Maybe they kept tame ones. They'd bring him out and they'd put him somewhere on
00:26:16a stone
00:26:16and they'd see what he did. You know a wren, they're very active. He would jump one way, he would
00:26:21jump another.
00:26:22He'd put his beak up this way, he'd put his beak that way. He'd fly over there and they would
00:26:25say,
00:26:26aha, there's an enemy coming from the west or you can expect bad weather coming from the east tomorrow.
00:26:32They would use the wren to tell things. The raven also was a foreteller of things.
00:26:36In the same way that they'd watch which way? They'd watch what they were doing because then
00:26:40we all could have been able, you know, Tommy, to tell what the weather was going to do without
00:26:44watching some nice girl in a studio. Yeah. We would have been able to tell. Animals still can.
00:26:49Have you not noticed how dogs and cats know when it's going to rain or when there's a storm coming?
00:26:52Absolutely, yeah, yeah. Well, we would still have this if we had developed our skills more or...
00:26:59In the bits of old Irish mythology that I've read where, say, the Romans are talking about the Celts,
00:27:08they say one of the things is that, I mean, they're mad for arguments, mad for fighting,
00:27:15mad for singing and not afraid to die.
00:27:19No, you wouldn't. It's rather like the Vikings going into Valhalla. You went into another world,
00:27:25a more beautiful world than this one, where there is no, where falls not rain or hail nor any snow,
00:27:31nor ever wind blows loudly. A place where everyone is young and happy. People often wanted to go there,
00:27:36and that's what you get in some of the old legends. People who do go there, but they can't always
00:27:40come back.
00:27:41Yeah.
00:27:47I have a sense now that we're so afraid of death and we're so panicked about dying.
00:27:56It's the natural progression on from this world. It's the next stage, the most natural thing going on.
00:28:02You move through this phase, through that phase, and then you move on and go through the curtain and on
00:28:06to the next world. It's nature is what I mean. If you spend your life watching Facebook and Twitter,
00:28:14and just looking at television, you don't think, you can't think there could be anything else.
00:28:18It's also, isn't it, that if you open your eyes to what's around you, you see how much death there
00:28:23is?
00:28:24Yes. In the sense of birds or insects or whatever, and that it's so, it becomes much more normalized.
00:28:30Yes. And natural. It's natural. Natural is the word. It's nature. It's what's there,
00:28:35and what does happen. What do you have great respect for?
00:28:43Nature. The power of nature, the power of, call it a nature of gods if you like,
00:28:48but I have a huge respect for nature and how nature at times, particularly nowadays,
00:28:53is showing anger. Because one of the strongest beliefs of our old ways with the old gods
00:28:58is that they cared for Ireland. You know the tradition of the two of the Don and how the Celts
00:29:02came and
00:29:02cheated them and they went underground rather than leaving their land. They stayed and they looked
00:29:06after it and they come forth to see that we're looking after our land and our way, for God's sake,
00:29:11are we? They come out at, particularly at the times of the year when everything is thinnest,
00:29:16the veil is thinnest. You get it at Samhain, you get it at Bealtaine, you get it at the solstices,
00:29:21you get it at Lunasa. They come out and come around and see what it is that we're doing.
00:29:26Yeah. And if we're not caring for the earth and the sea and the water around us, they get angry
00:29:31and
00:29:32then they throw a strop and they throw a large storm at us. Now, so people can hear that and
00:29:42think that
00:29:42all these things are defined and separate, that the two of the Don are a separate thing from
00:29:53us who are a separate thing from the land. But my sense of it is that those images are just
00:30:03ways of
00:30:03talking about a spirit that moves between the three. Between the three, because it's in us too.
00:30:11Yeah. Have you not gone out into a wood and stood there at night and felt part of it? You
00:30:16know,
00:30:16people laugh about tree huggers and things, but there's a tree that's standing there that's been
00:30:20there for generations. There's a spirit in the wood also and there's you. You can let it into yourself
00:30:25and feel it and be part of it and never ever again break a branch off a tree casually. Yeah.
00:30:32Yeah. What's your favourite thing to be doing?
00:30:37Wandering around by a fairy fort, I think. And thinking of the stories and legends that have gone
00:30:43around it. What's your sense of behaviour around a fairy fort? Respect. You would not charge into
00:30:50someone's palace or into Oros and Oedrion, come to that and say, hi, I've come for tea. Where's the sugar?
00:30:54You would stand outside and wait to be admitted. So, so from an irrational way, that,
00:31:01that's not a rational belief in terms of... It's irrational if you wish,
00:31:06but I would hate to be rational all the time. Is there no side to our brain? Yeah, there is,
00:31:11but what I'm asking is that, so you're there in front of this fairy fort. Yeah. And
00:31:20like, your sense of decorum, your sense of what is proper behaviour and what is not.
00:31:28Who are you, do you think, like what's happening?
00:31:33What's happening is that I'm entering another presence, a place that has been powerful. And
00:31:39I ask, if I think I have a good reason for going into a fairy fort, then I will. I
00:31:43always said,
00:31:44people don't go into fairy forts. But if I think I have a good reason, there might be a lost
00:31:47child
00:31:47in there, a lost animal, and you need to go in to get it. Or you may say, may I
00:31:51come and share your
00:31:52space for a little while. And you just ask politely, is it so difficult to be polite to the old
00:31:58ways?
00:31:59What are the fairies, do you think? What are the fairy people?
00:32:03What are the fairies? What are... Do you... The good people. The fairies is the word put on by the
00:32:07English in the 1890s. It's a sort of denigrating way. Now, yeah, the little things, like, you know,
00:32:11little leprechauns, little things. But ours are very real gods, the nature gods of Ireland, who are in
00:32:17charge of everything that is to the well-being of our country. The wells, every form of water,
00:32:23springs are magic, water is magic wherever it goes, to our seas, to our mountains, to our caves, to our
00:32:29hills, to our land. And to think that we're so important in our day and age that we can ride
00:32:34roughshod over everything else. It's asking for trouble. I mean, it's in from one, no, it's not that
00:32:41different to praying to a god and asking for something. No. It's praying to a god. It is
00:32:48praying to a god. It's just not the Christian god whom they've turned into some cruel, vengeful
00:32:55creature. That Augustine fella, who should not be called Saint Augustine, who decided that women
00:33:01weren't worth anything except maybe to produce children, but not much good. And he was the one who
00:33:05started that awful, awful custom of not allowing unbaptised babies to be buried in it. And I
00:33:12cried then when I discovered about the use of the fairy forts. I cried when I heard that. That
00:33:17people who weren't allowed to bury their babies. I mean, isn't it enough to have lost your baby?
00:33:22Yeah. When they weren't allowed to bury them in consecrated churchyard, they would take them to a
00:33:26fairy fort and bury them there because the good people would look after them.
00:33:32They thought, you know, and they believed that the old gods would look after them if the new god
00:33:36wouldn't. And I loved that. And it still moves me deeply.
00:33:44Years ago, I was down in County Clare and I was at this retreat, kind of a meditation retreat,
00:33:54you know, that included walking meditations. And you found a stretch of road or Bohrin or something,
00:34:03and you would do a walking meditation there twice a day. And at the end of the retreat,
00:34:10the guy said, now I want you to go down to the place where you did your walking meditation.
00:34:16And in this particular Buddhist tradition, they were called Devas, I think it's D-E-V-A apostrophe S.
00:34:25We'd know them as the good people. And he said, they're in the bushes.
00:34:31Yep. And I want you to go down there and thank them for the insights that you received
00:34:38while you were walking up and down beside them. And I went down to this little place where I was
00:34:46walking up and down and I gave encouragement to the part of myself that said, do it. And it felt
00:34:55really natural. I think that is lovely that you were talking about that. I have a lot of time for
00:35:00the
00:35:00Buddhists, a lot of time. But even just for the idea of thanking
00:35:06the spirit or whatever, I don't know, it all crumbles when you try to put words and definitions
00:35:10on it. I know. Where do you reckon, where do you think we're going?
00:35:18I think we're, I hope, I think there are signs that we are moving back to more of a belief
00:35:23in nature,
00:35:24in our old ways and old beliefs, because people are nauseated, I think, by the way we seem to be
00:35:30going
00:35:30in the world. We're going too fast in one direction. And your instincts will tell you.
00:35:35Sometimes your brain has been so shut off by all the other things you have to do. You're thinking,
00:35:39I've got to be there, I've got to be there, I've got to do this. But if you just let
00:35:41it,
00:35:42like you did when you talked to a bush and said, thank you, and thank you for giving me this
00:35:46insight,
00:35:47like you get when you're in a forest, like you get at the top of a mountain.
00:35:51Do you sing? I do, I do. I would sing the old songs, all of us, yes.
00:36:01You're not going to have me asking to sing now, are you? Yeah, come on. Do you have a song
00:36:06on you?
00:36:08My young love said to me, oh my mother won't mind, and my father won't slight you,
00:36:15for your lack of kind. Then he stepped away from me, and this he did say,
00:36:24it will not be long, love, till our wedding day. He stepped away from me, and he moved through the
00:36:34fair. Oh, how fondly I watched him move here and move there. And then he went homeward,
00:36:43with one star awake, as a swan in the evening moves over the lake.
00:36:52Last night he came to me, oh my dead love, he did come in. So softly he came that his
00:37:01feet made no din,
00:37:03and he laid his hand on me, and this he did say, it will not be long, love, till our
00:37:13wedding day.
00:37:16Oh, damn you're turning. Oh, Jesus. For God's sake.
00:37:23I think there's magic, and we've got to allow our eyes to open a bit wider.
00:37:32Jo, it's been a wild ride. Thank you very much. You were lovely to talk to Tommy.
00:37:38And you're halfway there yourself already, for heaven's sake. Thank you.
00:37:55Welcome back to the third half, everybody. Freddie, who's next?
00:37:58Tommy, our next guest is Timothy Chow.
00:38:12Timothy, how are you?
00:38:16I'm quite nervous and exciting.
00:38:19Sit down.
00:38:21Why would you be nervous?
00:38:24I've never said with a comedian...
00:38:28The comedy is only a small part of my imagination.
00:38:32I mightn't use it at all.
00:38:35So, what do you work at? What's your...
00:38:40How do you spend your time?
00:38:43So, I am Timothy Chow, and I was born in North Korea,
00:38:50and escaped twice, and when I was 17, and I was imprisoned three times in China,
00:39:00and one time in North Korea during my escape, and arrived in the UK in 2008,
00:39:06which I started to learn English from having new life, settle down, and now I'm a father of two
00:39:16children. So, I have two stages of stories. One story back in North Korea, how I escaped,
00:39:24or even between that journey, and now where I am in the UK, as in my life, democratic citizen.
00:39:29Can you tell me whereabouts in North Korea you were born, who you were born to,
00:39:36and what was it like growing up there?
00:39:38So, born in a teacher's family, I was given a lot of love, respect to it,
00:39:45until that moment when my parents first escaped to China, as I was turning age 10.
00:39:54So, this was a life starting off, upside down.
00:40:01Why did your parents want to escape?
00:40:04Um, due to political persecution, they had to make that choice, leaving me behind.
00:40:11So, I came home from school, and opened the door, while I had breakfast with them.
00:40:19But in the afternoon, coming home, I realized that as soon as I opened the door,
00:40:24you could feel the frozen wind was hitting your face, and realized something was happening in my heart.
00:40:32And I realized my parents were gone.
00:40:35So, I fast ran to the train station, and that's how my parents were gone.
00:40:42And, um, and I sat down and cried.
00:40:50And, um, and ran to my grandmother's house, so, holding her hand.
00:41:01Cried, and grandmother told me,
00:41:04they might come back, you know, it's not what they wanted.
00:41:08It was very difficult decision.
00:41:09Later, my mother, uh, of course, asked me to forgive her, uh,
00:41:14and several years ago, before she passed away.
00:41:16So, they, they, they managed to escape?
00:41:18They did.
00:41:20So, two things. Did you know why your parents left?
00:41:24And one thing I knew, it was a dangerous moment.
00:41:27Something they had to make that decision.
00:41:30If they didn't.
00:41:30How, how old were you when they, when they left?
00:41:32I was 10.
00:41:3310.
00:41:33So, at 10?
00:41:3410 into 10.
00:41:34So, even age 10, you still, you still had an awareness that it's dangerous?
00:41:38Great details, but what I knew, we called, um, um, enforced disappearance.
00:41:47This is a time, kind of, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, those generations.
00:41:52Families disappeared, taken to prison camp.
00:41:55North Korea has that culture, very common.
00:41:57All of a sudden, government car arrives at your door,
00:42:01forcefully put whole family into car and gone somewhere.
00:42:04We know where they're gone, but we don't talk about.
00:42:07We shut our mouth, we close our eyes, we block our ears.
00:42:11And although I didn't completely understand the situation in North Korea's 10,
00:42:15but I knew if they didn't make that choice,
00:42:19whole our family could have been taken away to a concentration camp,
00:42:23then you wouldn't be able to come out forever.
00:42:26Can I ask you, um, now living in the UK,
00:42:33what differences do you see between there and North Korea in terms of daily life,
00:42:41say for a child or something like that?
00:42:43Or...
00:42:43There aren't any choices in North Korea from the day you are born,
00:42:47you are being controlled to do what you need to do.
00:42:51And you are being brainwashed from very young age to think, act, speak,
00:42:59song, and sing for the Kim family as the regime dictated.
00:43:05And I genuinely thought Kims were my god when I was a boy.
00:43:11We were brainwashed deeply.
00:43:13At what age...
00:43:15So then you lived with your grandmother?
00:43:16Um, it was a difficult time. Millions of people died of starvation in 1990s.
00:43:22At least 3.5 million people died of starvation.
00:43:26Any relatives' families were struggling.
00:43:28I was going to live with her, but I couldn't because
00:43:34most of the families struggled without enough food.
00:43:37So for a few years, I lived on the street,
00:43:40begging food and sleeping at the stations, in train containers, under bridges.
00:43:48Yeah.
00:43:49We sometimes had to eat grass.
00:43:53So this was a kind of a...
00:44:00I call a survivor.
00:44:12And later, I was able to go back to my grandmother's house.
00:44:16After millions of people died of starvation, people started to
00:44:21grow food in every available space.
00:44:28But it's still in isolation, the hunger story going on in this country.
00:44:34It's still in isolation.
00:44:35Why do you think the Kim family allowed people to die like that?
00:44:44North Korea did not exist in history until 1945.
00:44:49There was only one Korea who was there.
00:44:52South Korea, same national flag, same national anthem.
00:44:56I was the first Kim who was given the power by Stalin
00:45:00to set up communist dictatorship.
00:45:04And he established his own history.
00:45:07But then he distorted all history.
00:45:10The truth now gone into upside down.
00:45:14And we thought it was the best equal society in the world, classless.
00:45:21We were wearing same shoes, same shirts, eating same food.
00:45:27After my parents escaped, they called me.
00:45:30When I was a son of traitor, I was categorized in the enemy class.
00:45:3430% of total population in the enemy class.
00:45:38You get discriminated against everything.
00:45:41We call apartheid systems in North Korea.
00:45:44And I wasn't able to go to school from age 10 because I was given the son of traitors, the
00:45:51enemy class tag.
00:45:56What is the plan to escape when you were 17?
00:46:01I had no idea.
00:46:04All I thought, just run away from that country.
00:46:12And all I heard, some people who previously escaped, talk about,
00:46:17Oh, China have plenty of food, wherever you go, maybe you can get a job.
00:46:21So it was my plan.
00:46:24Prepared some of these emergency food myself.
00:46:30And so there were four people of us.
00:46:34And we crossed the border at night time.
00:46:37We walked.
00:46:38It was not deep enough, the Tumen River, called Tumen River, between China and North Korea.
00:46:45And it didn't take us long.
00:46:47It only took us half an hour to cross the border.
00:46:51And we arrived.
00:46:54It was very, I felt feeling quite sad after I crossed the border.
00:46:59And I was thinking, would I ever, ever go back to that place I was born?
00:47:04Ugly hometown, but I still miss it.
00:47:06How did you, when you were in China, how did you, did you get caught?
00:47:10So China is not safe for us.
00:47:12So I went to the Mongolian border and meant to cross the border into Mongolia.
00:47:17So I met 17 people at the border, other North Korean refugees.
00:47:22So we were 18 of us.
00:47:24And we planned to cross the border into Mongolia.
00:47:27But there we were arrested at the border by the Chinese military.
00:47:32And in our group, the youngest were four and six year olds.
00:47:37And they were shooting in our way when we didn't stop towards the border, kept on running.
00:47:45And Chinese were chasing us and shooting in our way.
00:47:48And kids were screaming and crying.
00:47:51We couldn't run anymore.
00:47:54And we all stopped and we were arrested, sent us back to North Korea.
00:48:01And now taken to a prison detention, it was what they call detention center.
00:48:08But there were prison cells on the ground, many cells.
00:48:13And it was the same prison cells actually I saw when I visited the Auschwitz prison camp.
00:48:21I had the opportunity to visit.
00:48:24And I saw the gas chambers and how people tortured and killed there.
00:48:29And I saw the gas chambers and how people tortured and killed there.
00:48:31This was exactly what was happening in North Korea.
00:48:37And everyone looked depressed, in fear.
00:48:44No one did want to make eye contact with one another.
00:48:47We were given numbers.
00:48:49We were not allowed to call our names each other.
00:48:54And in my cell, tiny room cell, we were about 50 inmates, cramped.
00:49:02And we didn't have enough space to lie down.
00:49:07And woke up in the morning, early in the morning.
00:49:09I realised the man who was leaning against me, he died.
00:49:13He was so heavy.
00:49:15He was leaning against me to hold the body.
00:49:18He was already tortured before I arrived.
00:49:22We were given two scoops of noodle soup.
00:49:24No medical treatment.
00:49:30This man, what he looked like, I can still see him.
00:49:37And I was treated terribly there.
00:49:41And it was very surprising when they decided to
00:49:46send me to my grandmother's house, which I didn't expect.
00:49:50I was the only one who actually left that prison cell.
00:49:56All these 17 of them who we tried together, I left them behind.
00:50:01Or hundreds of men and women whom I saw there.
00:50:06And I left with huge scars, which I still have on my body.
00:50:12So I managed the second escape.
00:50:15And I went to international school.
00:50:19They call American school in Shanghai.
00:50:22And through all the perseverance, we managed to get into the school.
00:50:27And we had one paper.
00:50:29We're North Korean refugees.
00:50:30Please help us.
00:50:32And all these little kids, primary school students, they were panicking.
00:50:36They never had this situation and screaming.
00:50:39And the school principal came and said to us, unfortunately, we cannot help you.
00:50:45Because this is a public school, not a diplomatic government center.
00:50:50So soon, many Chinese police arrived there.
00:50:55And nine of us, we made human chains.
00:50:58We didn't want to be drugged out of the school.
00:51:00We knew what was going to happen, second repatriation to North Korea.
00:51:06But obviously, they were forcibly drugged us into police vans.
00:51:11And kids were standing there crying.
00:51:14They couldn't help us.
00:51:16And so we were now sent to Shanghai International Detention Center.
00:51:23And that was my fourth imprisonment.
00:51:33And there was no hope.
00:51:37But then, second night in the prison cell, one of the inmates, I had seven inmates in my cell.
00:51:48He came to me and introduced himself to me that he was a South Korean gangster.
00:51:55Of course, we speak Korean language, so we were able to communicate.
00:51:59And he asked me, perhaps you could start to pray to God for your survival.
00:52:04If God is there, you never know.
00:52:07And I looked at him and I was thinking, what a crazy, mentally unstable gangster I met.
00:52:14I just told him I would be killed.
00:52:16And he was telling me to pray to God for my survival, even after I worshipped the Kim family for
00:52:2117 years.
00:52:25But then, first time I made my own decision there, first time I made my own decision in the darkest
00:52:32prison cell,
00:52:33I decided to pray to God because there was nothing else I could do.
00:52:38And I genuinely was holding hope into that, what I was wishing for, because I didn't want to be killed.
00:52:47It was so scary.
00:52:51And I was holding the prison gate off, I don't know how many days I did, watching over and looking
00:53:00over.
00:53:01The birds were flying outside of the prison cell, was hoping I could fly like the bird.
00:53:06Or how many times I cried while I was born into this world.
00:53:25Oh, before I come to this interview, I was determined that I was not going to cry.
00:53:32Everybody says that.
00:53:36Oh, Tommy.
00:53:42I was going to cry.
00:53:43Two men visited me in the prison, two diplomats.
00:53:47One guy was a South Korean diplomat, the other guy was a Westerner.
00:53:51And they said to me, Timothy, we have good news.
00:53:55That China made a very unusual decision to deport UNU group to the Philippines
00:54:01with diplomatic passports, not to North Korea.
00:54:05This was the first ever case and last happened, never happened before.
00:54:12And the story behind was among those hundreds of school students, 13-year-old girl,
00:54:20she wrote an email to a journalist, broken her English grammar as well.
00:54:26I read the email on internet later.
00:54:29It's still there.
00:54:30She asked the journalist, we were traumatized watching the arrest.
00:54:37We were young and powerless.
00:54:38We couldn't do anything.
00:54:39They would be killed if they sent back to North Korea.
00:54:42Could you please do something?
00:54:44This journalist who was placed in Japan during those days,
00:54:48and she moved after receiving her email and an email to CNN, Washington Post.
00:54:57The articles are still there and BBC and dozens of international media to stand up.
00:55:03And they so pressured on the Chinese government to not send them back to North Korea.
00:55:08So I was able to come to the UK via another country in 2008.
00:55:16I mean...
00:55:28What do you feel is your work now?
00:55:32I never thought I was going to tell the people I was born in North Korea,
00:55:39or to do this work, speak out against.
00:55:44When I first arrived in the UK, I didn't even want to talk Korean language.
00:55:50I was so heavily traumatized.
00:55:53Then I learned later, it was the hatred I was holding in my heart,
00:55:58that putting me into darkest corner.
00:56:01And I was able to learn how to forgive.
00:56:07So my mom actually rang me a few years ago before she passed away.
00:56:12She died in a care home.
00:56:14She had a stroke.
00:56:16Her body, half-body paralysed for years.
00:56:20And I received her phone call on a bus in Manchester.
00:56:24She couldn't talk.
00:56:25The doctor said, your mom has one question.
00:56:28The question was, son, could you forgive me?
00:56:32She lived or suffered many years.
00:56:39And it was the final moment she asked me.
00:56:41And I asked, I told my mom,
00:56:43mom, I have already forgiven you.
00:56:46And I have a different story, life in the UK.
00:56:49I learned English, got my high school certificates, A-levels.
00:56:54And I went to universities, studied in politics.
00:56:58And I was expecting to work in parliament in 2018.
00:57:04And she always wanted to give me the best education as she was a teacher.
00:57:08And always wanted me to wear nice clothes.
00:57:11And she was crying and crying.
00:57:15And I am very lucky and I'm very blessed.
00:57:21But I do believe there must be a reason why I survived.
00:57:28And while I am in your studio, I will commit my life to speak against injustice.
00:57:38Especially around this time of the world.
00:57:40So much hatred, wars and conflict, refugees, persecution, war is going.
00:57:48I have spoken to millions of people around the world over the past few years.
00:57:53Very grateful that someone who can have a passport, I now have a British passport,
00:57:58they can travel around.
00:57:59And that I can come and share this of my experience freely.
00:58:10Um, thank you.
00:58:12And thank you.
00:58:15I have to say thank you.
00:58:19Thank you, Timothy.
00:58:20OK, that was, I could have listened and listened and listened and listened.
00:58:26But we're slightly bound by time here.
00:58:30But thank you.
00:58:39And now, ladies and gentlemen, would you please welcome Aoife Nivreen and Cormark McCarthy
00:58:44performing Crowley's from their new album, Cuss on Costa.
00:58:53Please join me.
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