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00:00:16Welcome to the show, everybody.
00:00:18I hope you enjoy what happens here over the next hour or so.
00:00:21To find out who our first guest is,
00:00:23let me hand you over to our MC for the evening,
00:00:25the beautiful Fred Cook.
00:00:27Thank you, Tommy.
00:00:28Well, our first guest is Charlotte Church.
00:00:37Hello.
00:00:38Hello.
00:00:41Hello, my lovely.
00:00:42I'm very, very happy to meet you.
00:00:44It's good to meet you too, Tommy.
00:00:48I saw you in the newspaper recently
00:00:56talking about being an earth mother
00:00:58or something.
00:00:59Yes.
00:00:59I've always liked you.
00:01:02And I'm curious about that adventure that you're going on.
00:01:05Yeah.
00:01:06Oh, well, I mean, I suppose it's been
00:01:11much like these things in life do sort of organically grow.
00:01:15Yeah.
00:01:16It's just been a sort of a very natural journey for me of an awakening to nature,
00:01:24an awakening to the interconnected relationships that this existence is.
00:01:30And just, yeah, a growing awareness of all of the beauty and complexity and delight in really living a life
00:01:41more aligned with nature.
00:01:43Can you remind us of how you first came into the public eye?
00:01:50Yeah, sure.
00:01:51And what happened?
00:01:55So, I first came into the public eye when I was 12.
00:01:59My first album was called Voice of an Angel.
00:02:02And I sort of sang a lot of religious Celtic music.
00:02:13Samaria's, you know, sort of classical crossover.
00:02:16And it just went mental for me overnight.
00:02:19I feel like, you know, literally I was plucked from obscurity.
00:02:26Like, it was like a proper fairy tale in a way.
00:02:29So, somebody saw you somewhere and said, that girl...
00:02:33Somebody saw me somewhere and one thing led to another, led to another, led to another.
00:02:37And I got signed to Sony.
00:02:39And so, and then I had a period of four years of, like, hardcore commercialisation where I was properly commodified
00:02:49and, like, absolutely in the centre, like, right in the beating heart of the capitalist machine.
00:02:57And, and, and we were really green and naive.
00:03:02And, uh, this was totally beyond any, like, mine or my parents, obviously mine, but my parents as well,
00:03:09who would live normal working class lives in South Wales.
00:03:12My mother worked for the council and my dad put up screens on council properties that weren't, um, uh, occupied.
00:03:21Yeah.
00:03:22And, yeah, so it was, um, wow.
00:03:25It was a very, very different sort of lifestyle for us then.
00:03:30And we went on a very extreme learning journey, I would say.
00:03:35Even, you know, to, to dealing with, uh, cultural differences around working, um, and children working in different places.
00:03:43Like, I remember when we were in Japan and, um, like, the, the schedule that they had for me to
00:03:48do.
00:03:48My mother was like, that's insane.
00:03:50There's no way she can work that much.
00:03:53And, do you know what I mean?
00:03:54So whether it was, like, cultural of us, like, going all over the world, um, but then also, you know,
00:04:03trying to figure out the boundaries,
00:04:05the boundaries with press, the boundaries with a conglomerate corporation.
00:04:08Like, my parents had this almost impossible task of trying to protect me and trying to advise me in the
00:04:18situation they had no idea about either.
00:04:21What, what do you think was being sold?
00:04:23Um, oh, interesting.
00:04:25What was being sold?
00:04:26I'm not sure if that's for me really to, well, maybe it is.
00:04:31I suppose that, that version, that, that, Innocence, Innocence was being sold.
00:04:37Oh.
00:04:41What are you thinking, Tommy?
00:04:42I'm thinking fucking hell, like.
00:04:48That's one of the most shocking things.
00:04:51Mm.
00:04:51Innocence was being sold.
00:04:53Because it was, wasn't it?
00:04:54It was just beautiful young girl with this voice and, uh,
00:04:59uh, pre-sexual, or something, whatever that, whatever that phrase is, or whatever, uh.
00:05:11Wow.
00:05:11Mm.
00:05:12Wow.
00:05:13Mm.
00:05:15But also, like, there was a whole narrative in the ways of, of how they treated my mother.
00:05:20Um, and so when I was 14, I, I was embroiled in a really big court case with my manager
00:05:25at the time.
00:05:27Yeah.
00:05:27And then everything changed, and my mother became the Welsh dragon.
00:05:30My mother became, like, the evil woman who was greedy, who was trying to control everything.
00:05:36And, um, and then when I was 16, and then started to behave like a normal teenager, go out with
00:05:42my friends, experiment, um, have boyfriends, then that was the, the whole, sort of, angelic fall from grace.
00:05:50So, so when the, when you started to kind of, um, develop your kind of teenage musculature, I don't mean
00:06:01physically, but I mean, you're kind of your, well, that probably as well, but I mean, you're kind of, you
00:06:05know, the search for adventure as a teenager, real adventure with people your own age.
00:06:10Yeah.
00:06:10What, what stopped business-wise then?
00:06:14What stopped business-wise was my, uh, the, the, the, all I wanted to do was be relevant to my
00:06:22peers.
00:06:23And I wasn't interested, or at least it felt like embarrassing then for me to be doing this sort of
00:06:29music that I didn't connect with anymore.
00:06:32And, um, for me, I was like, just obsessed with black music.
00:06:37Like, I loved gospel and D'Angelo and Jill Scott and, um, all the music that was coming out of
00:06:43Philadelphia and, um, and I, but I, and I also loved indie.
00:06:47I loved lots of different genres, but really it was all of that new soul movement at the time that
00:06:52I was absolutely in love with.
00:06:53And so, uh, then that was the music that I was then going to try and make.
00:06:58Um, but it didn't really work because then...
00:07:00Were you able to push it all away and say, leave me alone for a few years now, um, there's
00:07:07some money saved or whatever, leave me alone?
00:07:11Yeah, I suppose that what happened then was that I, um, hmm, I took myself away and had babies.
00:07:21So I had my first baby at 21.
00:07:24You know, once I'd done the pop stuff and then I had, then I'd sort of started going into more...
00:07:29Was it like, were you thinking, I'd love some babies?
00:07:31No, I just met, I met a specimen of a human who was a rugby player and literally something in
00:07:38my body went, let's procreate immediately.
00:07:39Oh, you, you're incredibly, incredible looking.
00:07:44And, uh, and I followed my body.
00:07:48Good woman, wow.
00:07:49And, um, had two beautiful babies.
00:07:51Yeah.
00:07:52And, and, and, and so it was a beautiful time.
00:07:56I was high.
00:07:57I was high as balls when I, when I was in, in, in that early mother world.
00:08:02I mean, I just loved it.
00:08:03Yeah.
00:08:04That's a great phrase.
00:08:04We've never heard it before.
00:08:05Yeah.
00:08:06High as balls.
00:08:08Haven't you?
00:08:09I was, I was totally just wandering around, like, just absolutely on a cloud, on cloud nine, just like, my,
00:08:17my pupil, you know, your pupil, because there's literally so much oxytocin, the love hormone.
00:08:21Yeah.
00:08:22When a baby is born, the, you know, your pupils are dilated and such, you know, it's mental, like everybody
00:08:28looks like they're on drugs.
00:08:29Wow. Um, did you become a character as far as the British media were concerned?
00:08:36Yes. For some reason, it was in their interest to present me like a, like an airheaded Welsh.
00:08:44It's really interesting, actually. I've, it's only through, through going through the Leveson inquiry and reflecting on it again more
00:08:51recently, you know, so many of the slurs and such that came from the British press were around my Welshness.
00:08:57And, well, people were told, what, she's crazy, she's a drunk, she's a druggie, she's...
00:09:03Yeah, she's out of control, like, she's, um, uh, I don't know, I, I, I suppose the things that, for
00:09:12me, the messaging that, that I feel that were, that people had about me was that I, um, was a
00:09:20party girl, that I was an airhead, um, that I was just, like, really thick and stupid and should just
00:09:26stick to singing.
00:09:27Um, or just, like, getting my kit off, um, and, uh, like, not, like, not be commenting on anything else,
00:09:36like, like, who, who would ever listen to her?
00:09:38She's like a tart, who is, um, uh, yeah, only, who is, who is this, like, has-been singer.
00:09:47So, I felt like the whole has-been narrative as well was, was around from when I was quite young,
00:09:55too.
00:09:56So, was there, like, paparazzi stuff for the people selling videos and photos they're taking of you?
00:10:01Yeah, absolutely, so, and, and, you know, my, my mother, particularly, has and continues to be so horrendously, um, uh,
00:10:15affected by that, affected by what she went through at the hands of the press, um.
00:10:21Because they're a force that's bigger than the individual, and if they turn on you, you-
00:10:25Oh, my gosh, I mean-
00:10:26You will suffer.
00:10:27You will. I mean, I'm, it, it, it is, I've, I've called it a psychological grinder in the past, and
00:10:33that's what it is.
00:10:33Like, it is really, you are psychologically just put through the mill.
00:10:39I mean, and there's all sorts of, like, and so much of it is built on shame.
00:10:46And so, you know, I cannot tell you the feeling of, um, certainly for me, I can't speak from my
00:10:54mother,
00:10:54but for me, having, uh, being a teenager and having just found out that your first boyfriend has been paid
00:11:05£100,000 to sell a sex story on you, you know?
00:11:09And I was 17, maybe, maybe 18, maybe 18 by that point.
00:11:15And, and getting that phone call that that's what's going to be out on, on a, on the next Sunday,
00:11:21even now, as I, as I'm thinking about it, I feel sick to my stomach.
00:11:25Um, and then, you know, there was other stories.
00:11:28My father had an affair.
00:11:29That was how my mother found out.
00:11:31Um, and it was, uh, you know, um, uh, the, the woman who we'd had an affair with.
00:11:37It was her story.
00:11:38And that, my mother's mental health was already on the floor.
00:11:42And, um, so I, yeah, I just, I cannot tell you how, um, how awful that is.
00:11:51And, and it's, there's something so unique in the experience of having all of that pain and all of that
00:11:59shame made so public.
00:12:02It's, um, it's really intense.
00:12:05It's really intense and it's deeply damaging.
00:12:08Um, so.
00:12:10Can you remember what was happening to you physically while it was going on?
00:12:13Like, with your, how did your body cope with that?
00:12:17I think my body cope with it in defiance, you know, like actually, um, we've Irish ancestry.
00:12:25Like, we are all from Wicklow, came over in the potato famine, lived in Newtown, in a place called Newtown
00:12:32in, in Cardiff.
00:12:33Five streets of Irish Catholics.
00:12:36And, um, and the female line of my family are fierce.
00:12:41And they always have been, like, um, fearsome and brilliant and outspoken and strong, you know?
00:12:52And, and I do think that, um, part of that is from our ancestry, from our Irish roots.
00:13:00It's genetic.
00:13:01It's absolutely genetic.
00:13:02And, um, but I, yes, I think that my sense of perspective, my sense of the understanding of the injustice
00:13:12of it.
00:13:12So I didn't internalise it.
00:13:14I didn't internalise it.
00:13:16I just knew it was fucking wrong.
00:13:19Yeah.
00:13:19You know?
00:13:20Did you, did you, did you marry the fellow with his straight up hair?
00:13:25I did.
00:13:26I didn't marry him.
00:13:27I didn't marry him.
00:13:28Just had his babies.
00:13:31Oh, is it Jonathan something?
00:13:33No, no.
00:13:34So Johnny, he is my husband now.
00:13:36So I've been, I've been married to Johnny.
00:13:38How have I been married since 2017?
00:13:39But we've been together for 15 years.
00:13:42Okay, lovely.
00:13:42Um, and I've got a baby with him too.
00:13:45So I've got a little four-year-old.
00:13:47Two teenagers and a four-year-old.
00:13:49So that is amazing and complex and beautiful.
00:13:54Um, tell me about the, um, the creative stuff then.
00:13:58Mm.
00:13:59When the, the, the, the first two babies were, are they all boys?
00:14:04Girl, boy, girl.
00:14:05So, so when the, the, your first daughter and your first son, can you tell me about the,
00:14:11your creative desires as they're growing up and what you wanted to do?
00:14:17Yeah, I think that I've always been a curious cat.
00:14:21And so, um, and, and also just very trusting of my intuition.
00:14:25Good.
00:14:25And so, um, I would just follow what, what, what, my interests, I suppose.
00:14:30And, and, and, and then also through my relationship with my husband and, of course, through having children,
00:14:37um, I became much more politically active.
00:14:41Um, you know, my husband was, is an absolute, like, anarcho-communist, communist and, uh, radical.
00:14:48And, uh, and before then I had been, I suppose, just not very politicised at all.
00:14:54Um, and, um, yeah, I've just been getting myself into loads of trouble ever since.
00:14:59What kind of, what kind of trouble?
00:15:01I mean, just all sorts of trouble, really.
00:15:04Just, um, I think, obviously, with, uh, Palestine.
00:15:09Yeah.
00:15:09Palestine seems to me to be, uh, the biggest sort of spiritual awakening of our time.
00:15:15At the catalyst for this enormous world change, which seems to be just going faster and faster, like this, the
00:15:23speed of, of what I would consider this sort of fascistic takeover, that feels like it's global, is, um, is,
00:15:33is deeply unsettling.
00:15:35Um, and, but, yeah, I mean, whether, I've been, um, a climate activist for a number of years now.
00:15:44Um, and I suppose in ways that was, again, whilst I was just really starting to educate myself and allow
00:15:53myself to be educated by others, um, around the polycrisis that we face, um, whether it's the excesses and the,
00:16:04uh, the human rights abuses of late-stage capitalism, um, whether it's the, the war machine, whether it's the grip
00:16:13of big pharma.
00:16:14Whether it's the education system.
00:16:16I mean, whether it's the, the, the pollution of the rivers.
00:16:20Take your pick.
00:16:22So, so, so how do you live then?
00:16:25How do I live?
00:16:26I mean, I, I mean, those things are real, um, and you can feel a bit powerless.
00:16:35Yeah.
00:16:36Um, so on a day-to-day level then, what do you do, how do you live?
00:16:42I, I manage, I cope by, um, I have set up a charity which has been running for six or
00:16:50seven years now called the Awen Project, which is a free-to-attend democratic school in the forest.
00:16:57We've only got one community so far, but we hope to have many, many more communities, um, and that is
00:17:03all around young people's agency and autonomy and creativity and having much more of a say over their education, a
00:17:11much more soulful education.
00:17:13Like, is it a, is it a physical school?
00:17:15It's a physical school.
00:17:16We've got 15 kids at the moment.
00:17:18And at the moment, the way that it's staying open, because we are quite radical and so funding isn't easy
00:17:24to come by.
00:17:25Uh, I'm doing celebrity game shows.
00:17:30Yeah, anyway, so that's a different way.
00:17:33And also, I've set up a...
00:17:35Do you mean like, um, I'm in the jungle, help me, those sort of things?
00:17:37No, like, uh, the chase.
00:17:41A catchphrase.
00:17:44Tipping point.
00:17:45Tipping point.
00:17:46Have I done tipping point?
00:17:47Yes, I have done tipping points.
00:17:49I've done loads of them.
00:17:51Um, and so, yeah, so, so that's one way.
00:17:54Do you enjoy doing them?
00:17:56Not particularly, no.
00:17:59That's not my general way.
00:18:01And also, like, as much as possible, I do try and keep myself out of the limelight.
00:18:04Yeah.
00:18:05Unless it is people like yourself who have integrity and who, um, a point of view and, um, you know,
00:18:14is not so caught up in this mess of media and, yes, anyway.
00:18:20So, I only, I only pop out of my little hidey hole, um, uh, when I need to.
00:18:27Um, how's your voice?
00:18:30Good.
00:18:32Do you want me to have a little sing?
00:18:35Oh, okay.
00:18:37Um, hmm, hmm.
00:18:39Shall I sing a little Irish air?
00:18:41Whatever you like.
00:18:42Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah.
00:18:44Okay, so, when, uh, when I was younger, I used to sing a lot of Irish music.
00:18:49And again, at the time, I didn't, they were always, it was always my favourite music to sing.
00:18:54Um, you know, the Parnass Angelicos and the this, that and the other.
00:18:58Um, it was always the Irish airs that I loved.
00:19:00So, I'm going to sing my Lag and Love.
00:19:02Ah, ah, ah, ah.
00:19:07Where lag and stream sings a lullaby
00:19:16There blows a lily fair
00:19:24The twilight gleam
00:19:29Is in her eye
00:19:33The night
00:19:37Is on her head
00:19:42And like a lovesick land
00:19:47And she
00:19:48She hath my heart enthralled
00:19:57Nor life I owe
00:20:01Nor liberty
00:20:05For love
00:20:09Is Lord all
00:20:16There you go
00:20:22Charlotte, thank you so much
00:20:24Thank you for having me, Tommy, this has been lovely
00:20:27I wanted to meet you for a long time
00:20:29I always had a sense you were
00:20:34There was good fun in you
00:20:35Thank you very much for coming on to the show
00:20:37Thank you for having me, it's been absolutely wonderful to be here
00:20:41Yeah
00:20:41Yes
00:20:42Flash
00:20:42Beautiful to be here
00:20:43Definitely as well
00:20:56Welcome back to the second half, everybody
00:20:57Freddy, who's next?
00:20:59Tommy, our next guest is
00:21:01Mr. Davey Russell
00:21:09How are you man, of course, good now.
00:21:16How's the body?
00:21:17The body is glued together, still there.
00:21:20Nuts and bolts just tighten them every now and now.
00:21:22Yeah, so for those people who don't know you, you're a phenomenal jockey.
00:21:26Used to be, used to be, yeah.
00:21:28The last time I was talking about you, you'd fallen off a tree.
00:21:34Oh God, oh Ginny, yeah.
00:21:36I had my first experience of ketamine.
00:21:41Jesus, erm, yeah, that was an experience.
00:21:45Oh sorry, this is after the fall.
00:21:50I didn't take the ketamine and then go on the tree, no.
00:21:54I went on the tree, got the fall, then took the ketamine.
00:22:00Oh, stop the light.
00:22:01I'd visions of you up with the branches going, this was not a great idea.
00:22:04I think you would have gone.
00:22:07What happened to you?
00:22:09The ambulance came and I was sitting, I was in pain now, it was sore,
00:22:15and he gave me the ketamine.
00:22:17Oh, they couldn't find the vein, that's right.
00:22:18They couldn't find the vein and next thing he puffed the ketamine.
00:22:21And I said, God, there's some stuff.
00:22:25And, er, and I went off then on my pinky and a corner up into the sky.
00:22:29And, er.
00:22:30Was it trippy?
00:22:31Oh, it was, I could have drove the ambulance.
00:22:35So I could, erm, it was an experience anyway.
00:22:39And I'm not, and, and, you know, drugs never drink, never, I never drank.
00:22:44Er, drugs never interested me, you know.
00:22:48Yeah.
00:22:48Because when I got a fall, you know, a normal fall, you got a bit of a kick in and
00:22:53you were sore.
00:22:55I wasn't, I hated taking painkillers.
00:22:57OK, yeah, yeah.
00:22:57Because I didn't want to mask something.
00:23:01I wanted to go through the pain.
00:23:03I had no problem with pain.
00:23:04I actually sometimes kind of used to pat myself on the back a little bit when you go through the
00:23:10pain barrier.
00:23:11Do you know what I mean?
00:23:11I enjoyed going through the pain barrier.
00:23:13Yeah.
00:23:14So with that relationship to pain, could you, could you have hurled or something?
00:23:17Or was there, were you only ever going to become a jockey?
00:23:20No, actually I'd done everything.
00:23:21OK.
00:23:21I'd done everything.
00:23:22I ran as a chap.
00:23:24I, I, I, I, I hurled.
00:23:26I played football.
00:23:27To no level now.
00:23:29Do you know what I mean?
00:23:29I was, what I was, if, if they had the full 15, I was an umpire.
00:23:35And if they didn't have the full 15, I'd fill a gap.
00:23:38Do you know what I mean?
00:23:39Erm, but I loved it.
00:23:41I just loved going to training and I loved being in the hurling pitch.
00:23:47And I, as I remember back now when I was a chap, every pursuit that my dad enjoyed, I enjoyed.
00:23:58I was a shadow of him.
00:24:00Everything he'd done.
00:24:02Erm, because I would see the joy when he'd go to a hurling match and the excitement.
00:24:10And, even to this day and now, the rearing that I got with my father, I was, I was an
00:24:16extra limb on him now.
00:24:18I must have been an awful nuisance to him.
00:24:20But, no matter where he was going, I wanted to go there.
00:24:25And, after that then, I went into them, I liked hurling matches, I liked football matches, I liked hunting, I
00:24:34liked riding horses and going to point of points.
00:24:36And, the actual race course didn't excite me as much as the joy of going to point of points.
00:24:46Sure, yeah, yeah.
00:24:47And, but then that progressed into, you know, that just developed into what it developed into.
00:24:52Can you tell me about your career then and the races won and lost and all that and the shape
00:24:58of it?
00:24:59The races won and lost were brilliant.
00:25:02And, and, and I had a marvellous career because I never expected to do what I'd done or I don't
00:25:10think anybody does.
00:25:11Yeah.
00:25:12But, so I started off in pint of pints.
00:25:15Then I had the look of, I rode for very good people, Arthur Moore, you know, real, fantastic people.
00:25:21I had a good association with a trainer called Charles Burns and I rode a lot of winners for him.
00:25:25And then I met up with Michael O'Leary.
00:25:29And I was riding loads of winners but I could, I just couldn't get over the line to be champion
00:25:33jockey.
00:25:34I have, I rode the most amount of winners in a season and still finished second.
00:25:40Ruby rode maybe four or five more than me. We broke the record for the amount of winners.
00:25:44You were the Liverpool of jockeys.
00:25:45Yeah.
00:25:48And then I was lucky enough to meet Michael O'Leary and he was building a team of horses.
00:25:54Yeah.
00:25:54And I became champion jockey and then I became champion jockey again.
00:26:00And everything was going and I was winning all these races.
00:26:03You know, grade one races where you like to be in Leopardstown and Cheltenham and Aintree and all these places.
00:26:08And, and yeah, it just went on from there.
00:26:11I just had rode some very, very good horses for some great people.
00:26:14What's the most scared you've ever been on a racetrack?
00:26:17I'm never scared on a racetrack, no.
00:26:19No, I have no fear whatsoever of riding a horse.
00:26:22Falling and the thunder of other horses going over you.
00:26:25No fear, no.
00:26:26Yeah, well, the only time you'd be afraid is when you're hit the ground and waiting for the fingers and
00:26:34the toes to move.
00:26:35Once they move, then, but I did break my neck.
00:26:39No, I broke my, that was, it was scary, but then very, I got over very quick.
00:26:46I felt like there was a firework just exploded in my finger.
00:26:50I was very lucky they ordered Malta came and I explained it.
00:26:53Where was the fall?
00:26:54In Limerick at the first fence in the Munster National.
00:26:58And then the doctor, and we're very lucky.
00:27:00So an ambulance, so within seconds, there was a very qualified doctor with us.
00:27:06With all the equipment.
00:27:08Now, but the race is still going on?
00:27:10Oh, don't mind the races, everybody and the punters and everybody's cheering for their horse.
00:27:14And that's, they'll worry about that.
00:27:15Don't mind Davey.
00:27:16Don't mind him once he's, yeah.
00:27:19Ketamine, get that lads of ketamine.
00:27:20Yeah, get him quick.
00:27:22And so when you're lying, you cannot move and it's really uncomfortable.
00:27:28It's the most uncomfortable thing to be lying there strapped in and no movement.
00:27:32And you're seeing all these faces and shoulders.
00:27:36You're only barely seeing a shoulder go by, you know.
00:27:39And there was a lovely doctor and my head names came and he just came over and stuck his face
00:27:50over that I recognised.
00:27:51And I got quite emotional that I saw a face that I recognised and he could talk to me.
00:27:58And he just said, look, you're in a bit of bother.
00:28:01You're going to have to go to Dublin.
00:28:03You're going to have to break your neck.
00:28:05You're seeing three vertebraes anyway.
00:28:08And I dislocated one.
00:28:10And then the William Wallace torture chamber came into play.
00:28:17This was brilliant altogether.
00:28:19So they had to stretch me to pop in the vertebrae.
00:28:24And that was grand.
00:28:25So I was lying in the bed again looking at the ceiling.
00:28:28Are you conscious while they're doing this?
00:28:29Yes.
00:28:29I am.
00:28:30Very conscious.
00:28:31How do they stretch you?
00:28:32So, bolts into your head.
00:28:35A string off a, off a, there's a little arc going across here with a string on a pulley down
00:28:46with a bag full of water.
00:28:49And every so often they'd add weight to the bag to pull.
00:28:53So anyway, they popped in the yoke and he went in and he operated and, oh, it was brilliant.
00:28:58Yeah, it was fantastic.
00:28:59And he said, I said, will I be able to ride again?
00:29:03And he said, you will?
00:29:06He said, why wouldn't you?
00:29:07No, I just broke my neck.
00:29:08And he said, your neck will be stronger after I operate on it than it was before.
00:29:14So that put me at ease.
00:29:15And then I had a huge journey then.
00:29:18Yeah.
00:29:18To get to recovery.
00:29:20And I imagine you fell again.
00:29:22Oh God, I did over and over and over.
00:29:24Yeah.
00:29:25Yeah.
00:29:25Yeah, I did.
00:29:26Not too bad.
00:29:27I never really fell that much.
00:29:28I actually broke bones in my back after that.
00:29:32It was the last injury I got.
00:29:35Just there's transverse processes on the bottom of your back off the wings of your vertebrae.
00:29:41And I damaged them and they kind of just put a right scupper to the end of me.
00:29:45And who's watching the television getting upset when you fall?
00:29:49I sure.
00:29:50Adele, I suppose.
00:29:52And dad, mum, obviously, mum was a gas woman.
00:29:56Yeah.
00:29:56She was a Kells woman.
00:29:58She was a brilliant woman.
00:29:59And dad would be at home and he'd say, geez, would you not give it up altogether?
00:30:03Do you know what I mean?
00:30:04You know, you give it up.
00:30:06And that would drive me on more.
00:30:09And Adele then would be at home and she'd hear I'd get a fall.
00:30:13Do you know, even the likes of Limerick.
00:30:15Yeah.
00:30:15So in the wear room, when I got to fall in Limerick or if I had seen someone else get
00:30:19a fall,
00:30:20they'd get your phone and they'd find Adele's number or my dad's number.
00:30:25And they'd ring and say, look, David's gone to hospital.
00:30:27He's fine.
00:30:27He's after breaking his leg, but he's fine.
00:30:29Or, you know, David's in a small bit of bother now.
00:30:32You know, you might just need to...
00:30:34Make arrangements.
00:30:35Yeah.
00:30:37And things like that.
00:30:38Do you have accessibility wraps at the house?
00:30:40Yeah.
00:30:41Yeah.
00:30:41It was into that sort of territory at the time, but it was over and done very quick now.
00:30:47Do you know what I mean?
00:30:48And we were...
00:30:49Look, it's a tough sport now and we've had a tough couple of weeks in our sport.
00:30:53Yeah.
00:30:53It was very easy.
00:30:55I was the lucky one.
00:30:57But, you know, some people just...
00:30:59Who died recently?
00:31:03Ah, it's a tough one.
00:31:05It's still a bit raw.
00:31:06And Michael O'Sullivan.
00:31:07He was a beautiful chap.
00:31:09Beautiful chap.
00:31:10And I suppose, as I said at the time, the only compliment I could...
00:31:14Or the best compliment I could give is if I could rear my kids like Michael O'Sullivan,
00:31:18to be a version of Michael O'Sullivan, then I'd be after doing a good job of rearing him.
00:31:24You know, he was a beautiful chap.
00:31:26And he got one of them falls down to the last five or six horses in with a shout.
00:31:35Three of them fell.
00:31:37Two lads got up and whistled their way back into the air.
00:31:40How old was he?
00:31:42He was 20...
00:31:43Just shy of his 25th birthday.
00:31:46Just shy of his 25th birthday, yeah.
00:31:50Yeah.
00:31:50Yeah.
00:31:50For people who are watching who think that horse racing is cruel, specifically...
00:31:56I'm not talking about the jockeys, I'm talking about the treatment of the horses.
00:31:59Now, I would always defend it saying nobody loves the horses as much as the jockeys.
00:32:04But they would be kind of going, no, it can't be...
00:32:07They don't want to jump.
00:32:08They don't want to be doing that kind of thing.
00:32:10Oh, Jesus, I wouldn't...
00:32:12I'd be very much disagreeing with that, you know.
00:32:15Yeah.
00:32:17Because...
00:32:18You must remember they're a huge unit of an animal.
00:32:22Mm.
00:32:22And there are horses there that won't...
00:32:25If they don't want to do it, they won't do it.
00:32:27Do you know what I mean?
00:32:27No matter what you say or do to them, you will not make them, that's it.
00:32:31But the ones that do want to do it, they really love it.
00:32:34And they're on springs and you get a feeling off them.
00:32:37And it's all feeling because they can't talk.
00:32:39And I can only go from the feeling that I'm getting.
00:32:41Mm.
00:32:42I'll put it to you this way.
00:32:43If I can get a feeling of negativity from a horse, it's going to come into me.
00:32:48And that means that this is not right.
00:32:52It doesn't feel right, I can't do it if it's not right.
00:32:54I can't do anything if it's not right.
00:32:56Mm.
00:32:57I don't ever get that feeling.
00:32:59And if they get a little spot on him or a pimple on him, you're wondering,
00:33:05I need to change this because that's not right.
00:33:07He's healthy.
00:33:08Yeah, yeah.
00:33:08He's not healthy, you know.
00:33:09So we take their bloods to make sure they're of pure and utter 100% health.
00:33:17And if they have an ache or a pain, you just wait until that ache or pain goes.
00:33:22Or you call the physio or you call the dentist.
00:33:24Yeah, yeah.
00:33:25They're all these professionals.
00:33:27They're the same way they are for humans.
00:33:29And what happens then is until you're getting the feeling that he's right
00:33:33and he's ready to go, then you go.
00:33:37Do you know?
00:33:38And not until you get that, do horses, do the people that look after him
00:33:44and care for him, allow them to go to the races.
00:33:46You know what I mean?
00:33:47It's just...
00:33:48What's the most exciting race you've ever been in?
00:33:50Oh, the Grand National is the one that gets the...
00:33:55You'd feel it.
00:33:56Can you describe that one to me?
00:34:00So nobody thinks they're going to win it.
00:34:04But everybody is going out to win it, if you know what I mean.
00:34:07Yeah.
00:34:08So, you know, in a gold cup you'd say, you know, there's three or four of them, you know,
00:34:16five of them could win it and four of them may not, but anybody could.
00:34:19Anybody could win the Grand National. Anybody.
00:34:22All 36 of them, they line up at the tape, any one of them, because you just don't know what's
00:34:28going to happen.
00:34:29Yeah.
00:34:31It's situated in a special place in Liverpool.
00:34:33Yeah.
00:34:34Special fences and a special designed course that you have to jump one fence that way.
00:34:40Who decides when the horse jumps?
00:34:42He does.
00:34:44He makes up.
00:34:45You send the signals.
00:34:48You send the signals.
00:34:50You send the signals.
00:34:52But it's all feeling.
00:34:54You're not going to send a signal unless you're getting a reaction from him.
00:34:58Yeah.
00:34:58You know what I mean?
00:34:59So it's all feeling.
00:35:01So the signal is...
00:35:02Will we get ready?
00:35:03The signal is...
00:35:07Nothing is nearly always the best thing.
00:35:10Just don't do anything.
00:35:11Just sit there.
00:35:13Hold on to him.
00:35:15And just squeeze, squeeze, squeeze.
00:35:17And he will do the rest.
00:35:18He'll love doing it.
00:35:19Squeeze with your legs.
00:35:20Legs.
00:35:20Just squeeze with your legs or encourage him to go forward.
00:35:23Go on.
00:35:24Go on.
00:35:26And...
00:35:27Hup.
00:35:27Do you go hup?
00:35:28No.
00:35:28Leave the huping and the guans and all that.
00:35:30Leave that...
00:35:31No.
00:35:31Leave that...
00:35:32That's cowboy stuff.
00:35:34Leave that behind.
00:35:35Whoa!
00:35:36Yeah.
00:35:36Well, a whoa now.
00:35:37You would say a whoa.
00:35:38You say, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
00:35:41Some lads are verbal and some lads aren't very quiet.
00:35:45Yeah, yeah.
00:35:46Yeah.
00:35:47You could hear lads giving an old scream out of them and things like that.
00:35:50You could hear another lad singing a song.
00:35:53Do you know what I mean?
00:35:53It's great crack.
00:35:54Like, it's...
00:35:55Yeah.
00:35:56And you're done with it now.
00:35:57You're retired.
00:35:58Yeah.
00:35:59Retired and at home with the lads, the kids and pawnees and horses.
00:36:03Yeah.
00:36:03The horses are always there, you know.
00:36:05Yeah.
00:36:05Yeah.
00:36:06What are you excited about nowadays?
00:36:08My children.
00:36:10They excite me something wicked and I have...
00:36:14Oh, Jesus, I love them.
00:36:16I never thought I could love anything as much as I love them all, yeah.
00:36:20Yeah.
00:36:21What is it about them that excites you?
00:36:27Ah, just the way they can do things.
00:36:31Things that I could never...
00:36:34They can do things on a pony that I couldn't do when I was 14.
00:36:41Yeah.
00:36:42And they're that age now.
00:36:44Like, they're extraordinary.
00:36:46And does Adele ever kind of...
00:36:48She's not too bothered.
00:36:49She's a great woman.
00:36:51She's...
00:36:51Once...
00:36:52Everything is rolling away.
00:36:54And she...
00:36:54Would she be okay for them to get involved with...
00:36:57With...
00:36:58Riding, like, do you think?
00:36:59Ah, she will, but she's like...
00:37:00She sees the joy in them.
00:37:01Yeah.
00:37:02She sees the joy in...
00:37:03What they're doing and...
00:37:05And they're outside.
00:37:06And they're getting dirty and manky.
00:37:08And she'd leave a back out of her...
00:37:10That the clothes are all over the place.
00:37:12And we'd all say sorry and...
00:37:15We'd go up and we'd clean the tack and we'd brush the pawnees
00:37:17And we'd ride them and we'd go out in the rain and the snow...
00:37:20The snow and the sleet and the sunshine.
00:37:22Yeah.
00:37:24When I...
00:37:24Before I met you, I remember...
00:37:27Hector would always be talking about you.
00:37:29Oh, he's a mad bastard.
00:37:30Oh, Davey Russell's a mad bastard.
00:37:32Jesus, he's a mad bastard.
00:37:33And then, you know, he'd be laughing, thinking about you.
00:37:36Yeah.
00:37:36And then I met you at Loretta's wedding.
00:37:39Yeah.
00:37:39And I was thinking, I'm going to meet this mad bastard now.
00:37:42I know.
00:37:42I was surprised that you didn't drink.
00:37:44Yeah.
00:37:45And I was surprised with how delighted you seemed to be out dancing.
00:37:48Oh, I love dancing, yeah.
00:37:50I love dancing and I love the crack.
00:37:52And I love, I love when everybody is going and you kind of can just slip in and in around
00:38:00where everybody is dancing.
00:38:02Yeah.
00:38:02You know, and I love, I love that and the sweat dripping off and the rip off and the shirt
00:38:06and the wildness.
00:38:08Oh, jeez, I love that.
00:38:09And then another day I could go out and I could enjoy myself just as much, but I could sit
00:38:13in the corner.
00:38:13Yeah.
00:38:14And I might need to dance.
00:38:17And I'd be having the same amount of fun as I would if I was dancing.
00:38:21And you're not self-conscious at all when you're dancing.
00:38:23I couldn't care less.
00:38:25I was on television for four or five years.
00:38:27Oh, did you do this?
00:38:27I did, I did.
00:38:29I did do it.
00:38:30Like an eejit.
00:38:32Yeah.
00:38:33And I learned a quick step and everything, yeah.
00:38:36And that was a challenge.
00:38:37That was a challenge.
00:38:39Yeah.
00:38:39You're young enough as well.
00:38:40Are you late forties?
00:38:4245.
00:38:4245.
00:38:43Yeah.
00:38:43I think.
00:38:44Yeah.
00:38:4545, yeah.
00:38:461979, the last year they made men.
00:38:48Yeah, was it?
00:38:50It was after the Pope.
00:38:52Yeah.
00:38:52Oh, he was in Galway the same year, yeah.
00:38:54Yeah.
00:38:56Yeah.
00:38:57How many races would you say that you rode?
00:39:00Oh, rode?
00:39:00Oh, man.
00:39:02Thousands upon thousands.
00:39:03I won, I won over, over one, over 1500, well over 1500 races.
00:39:12Maybe, maybe, I don't know, 1600 or 1700 races I won.
00:39:18So I rode thousands upon thousands.
00:39:21Broke a lot of bones and had so much fun.
00:39:29That's great, isn't it?
00:39:30Oh, it's so much fun.
00:39:31I look back on it now with the greatest, oh, it's so much fun.
00:39:35And great people and crack and wildness.
00:39:39Jesus, I love the wildness of it, like, do you know?
00:39:42It's inspirational stuff, David.
00:39:43Actually, it is great.
00:39:44Just...
00:39:44Thanks for talking to me, fella.
00:39:46No worries.
00:39:46Thanks for having me.
00:39:47Brilliant.
00:39:47Yeah.
00:40:01Welcome back to the third half, everybody.
00:40:04Freddie, who's next?
00:40:05Tommy.
00:40:06Our next guest is...
00:40:13How are you?
00:40:13How are you?
00:40:14Good, good.
00:40:15Right now.
00:40:16Thanks, Bill.
00:40:17Cheers.
00:40:21What do you go at?
00:40:23Sorry there, Tommy?
00:40:24What did you say?
00:40:25I said, what do you do?
00:40:26Oh, what do I do?
00:40:27Oh, God.
00:40:27I do a few things.
00:40:29I'm a writer.
00:40:30I'm a collector of Irish Traverse folk tales.
00:40:33And I'm also an inclusive curator of Traveller History at the National Museum.
00:40:37Oh, wow.
00:40:38Yeah, I know.
00:40:38I'm blessed.
00:40:39How did you get into all that?
00:40:40I grew up a traveller.
00:40:41I love stories.
00:40:42You know there are people who are born with curiosity.
00:40:44I'm born with nosiness.
00:40:45So I love the idea that we have this whole collection of lore and understanding that we've inherited
00:40:51from people around us that just makes sense of the world.
00:40:53Isn't it funny now because in terms of our encounters with, in terms of the encounters
00:41:01of the settled people, with the travelled people, people would say, you don't sound like a traveller.
00:41:05I love that.
00:41:06Because I'd go, what do travellers sound like?
00:41:08You know?
00:41:09But there's a kind of an awfully accent.
00:41:11That's kind of, hussgunder.
00:41:13Yeah.
00:41:14That's very awfully.
00:41:15But there's 47,000 of us.
00:41:16So it'd be a bit boring if we all sounded the same.
00:41:18Totally.
00:41:19Where did you grow up?
00:41:20I grew up in Turboy on the edge of Chum in Galway.
00:41:24That's a good traveller town.
00:41:25Oh yeah.
00:41:26One of the Shams, one of the Shams.
00:41:27Yeah.
00:41:29Navin was a good traveller town.
00:41:30Oh, still is.
00:41:31You know.
00:41:33But is there a thing of ultimately a settled person will feel, I like this traveller fella,
00:41:40I get on with him, but at the end of the day, I can't trust him.
00:41:45And is there the same coming back the other way?
00:41:47Oh, I'm not sure entirely about trust.
00:41:49There's something that can be undermined, definitely.
00:41:51Yeah.
00:41:52But also there's different perceptions.
00:41:53Like I'm with my partner, Dan, on our 19th year.
00:41:55He's from the wider community.
00:41:57Yeah.
00:41:57And there's stuff in his life that I go,
00:41:59Settle people are mad.
00:42:01Yeah.
00:42:01You know?
00:42:02Margarine haters.
00:42:02Yeah.
00:42:04And all sorts of things.
00:42:05And it can be as well as how it's the, your wider community's kind of,
00:42:09and there's a wide, obviously, spectrum of like understandings of how they've been in culture to live their lives.
00:42:14Like one of them, like I often talk about it, is that Dan had a grandmother who he's absolutely adored
00:42:20and loved.
00:42:20And she's lived a very long life when she was cherished.
00:42:22And when she died, I think I was visibly the most upset person in the church.
00:42:27And so much so on the way home, I'm like going, if I die, you better throw yourself into the
00:42:31grave.
00:42:31Because they were going for sandwiches, you know?
00:42:33Yeah.
00:42:34And I had time to process that of all, rather than going, I saw that a lack of passion and
00:42:38connection,
00:42:38rather than it was their way of going through grief.
00:42:40And I, in my opinion, I was like, oh, no, our grief needs to live on the surface.
00:42:43If you love that person, you need to, everybody knows.
00:42:46It's out there.
00:42:46It's out there because you love that person.
00:42:48So I think engaging with that, and sometimes as well, I think that because her history of being nomadic,
00:42:53we were reliant on, again, on each other and the wider community, we can also risk being very more honest.
00:42:58We're like going, I'm gone tomorrow.
00:43:00I can tell you exactly how I feel, you know?
00:43:02You mightn't see me for a few years.
00:43:04So I think that gives people the sense of, we can live more on the surface.
00:43:08Okay.
00:43:08And I love that while some people...
00:43:11Yeah. Oh God, we all love the drama.
00:43:13So tell me then about the extravagant tombstones and graveyard stuff.
00:43:19Like, they're entertaining.
00:43:21Yeah.
00:43:22But what's the...
00:43:23Expression of endearment and love.
00:43:26But also a lot of them are like, they're funded collectively.
00:43:28It's not like it comes from one person's pocket.
00:43:30If someone dies, there's a huge gathering of them.
00:43:32But also as a way of manifesting a trauma of a loss.
00:43:35The idea of, traditionally we moved.
00:43:37We don't, we have low object history.
00:43:39Because again, if you're either deeply practical or deeply emotionally connected,
00:43:44you don't bring it with you because you're moving around.
00:43:46So having something permanent, the idea would be, we create that.
00:43:49And we want to fill that with our love and respect of things.
00:43:51Now, when I'm, when I'm dead and gone, I don't want one.
00:43:54No. Yeah.
00:43:55I mean, throw me out a hole and put a little sign I was there.
00:43:57But I don't understand where it comes from.
00:43:59Yeah.
00:43:59And you don't really care what anybody else thinks about it in terms of it being classy or obvious.
00:44:03I'm not sure it's like.
00:44:03Yeah.
00:44:04Like you'd be in a graveyard and you'd see the ordinary tight little Christian settled crosses.
00:44:10Yeah.
00:44:10And next thing you see there's like, there's like a granite box of fags.
00:44:14There's a kind of a, you know, there's sculpted cans.
00:44:17There's, there's.
00:44:18All connected to the person.
00:44:19Sure.
00:44:19Kind of going like, some of them all remind me almost of the ancient tombs.
00:44:22They're kind of going like, they love the cigarettes.
00:44:23They get one of those.
00:44:24Love the drink.
00:44:25Get one of those.
00:44:26Love the music.
00:44:26Everyone loves the Elvis.
00:44:27Get one of those.
00:44:28Yeah.
00:44:28You know, and it's a way of building.
00:44:30So when you're coming around going, oh, these things are connected to those people.
00:44:33There's part of their lives, their history.
00:44:34Yeah.
00:44:34And they're, they're not just a thing in a box on the ground.
00:44:37They're a living connection because they're still a part of us.
00:44:39Yeah.
00:44:40It's all, and I think it's just a different, when people moved a lot, there was a different
00:44:43way of carrying people with you.
00:44:45Because if you were in a settled environment, sedentary, they'd be around you in different
00:44:48ways.
00:44:49That would be their chair.
00:44:50Yeah.
00:44:50That's the window they used to stand beside.
00:44:51Yeah.
00:44:51Yeah.
00:44:52So when you moved, you'd have a different way of carrying them.
00:44:54And so I think that how that's manifested in the world is it's different, but it's beautiful.
00:44:59Tommy, it really is beautiful.
00:45:02Um, I'm curious about the way, uh, social occasions for travelers.
00:45:09Uh, and not just kind of funerals and stuff like that, but just how you engage with one
00:45:18another and, um, like the, what part is the horse fair and balance a slow play compared
00:45:25to other things?
00:45:25I'm very curious about that.
00:45:26Well, if you think about it.
00:45:27Social engagement.
00:45:28Like socially, to be honest, we don't actually get together very often.
00:45:31So when we get together, we like to make a big.
00:45:33Cause they kind of go like, how many times are you going to get together?
00:45:35And then there's really unusual things where the majority of travelers never send wedding
00:45:39invitations.
00:45:40It's almost seen as insulting.
00:45:41Cause if we're friends, I'm, you know, I'm getting married.
00:45:43I'm expecting you there.
00:45:45It's up to you to tell me you're not going to come.
00:45:46So if I'm giving you a letter going, are you going to come to mine?
00:45:49Suddenly you're like going, are we not getting on?
00:45:51You know?
00:45:52So there's different ways.
00:45:53Just rock up.
00:45:53Yeah.
00:45:54You'd be expected.
00:45:55We work out kind of going, how many people do we know?
00:45:57And you know, are going to return.
00:45:58But it's a different way of, of community celebrating.
00:46:00So when we have opportunities to get together, we get together.
00:46:03Yeah.
00:46:03And we say Band of So, I've been to Band of So Fair about three times.
00:46:07Um, but it is, it is seen as one of those gatherings.
00:46:09Same thing with Puk Fair.
00:46:10Oh yeah.
00:46:10It's seen as one of those gathering, gathering points.
00:46:12Yeah.
00:46:12Yeah.
00:46:12And there's different areas and different families traditionally have different routes.
00:46:15Like my family's route would be Connemara at loan to Faris Kerry.
00:46:19So, you know, it wasn't that we traveled every corner.
00:46:20So that was the kind of, I would attract, um, seasonal work, which
00:46:23would attract different kind of festivals that would happen, different markets that would
00:46:26happen.
00:46:27Um, but also people have a desire to move and be in different spaces and open.
00:46:33Like for instance, I was very, very blessed myself and Dan, we were able to purchase a
00:46:37home together in Dublin.
00:46:39And when my parents heard about this, my father said, I have to go up.
00:46:42I come up to kick the ball.
00:46:43Everything was fine.
00:46:44And his interpretation was like going, you're off for making, you're stuck here now.
00:46:48Rather than going, we're delighted.
00:46:49You were able to afford something.
00:46:50Yeah.
00:46:50It was a very different landscape.
00:46:51You're almost shackled to the place.
00:46:52Yeah.
00:46:52It's like you're stuck here.
00:46:53And then after a while it was like, Oh, you can come back here.
00:46:56Oh, that's fine.
00:46:56You can come back here.
00:46:57The idea of like, I wasn't going to be taken to the hills next morning, but it was a sense
00:47:00of, Oh, you can't go anywhere now.
00:47:02Like this is where you are.
00:47:03This is where you stay.
00:47:04And, um, I just thought that was really, really interesting.
00:47:08In terms of coming out.
00:47:09Yeah.
00:47:10As a gay man.
00:47:11Well over 20 years ago, I grew up in a glass closet, right?
00:47:14So people weren't surprised.
00:47:16I was gay.
00:47:16People were surprised.
00:47:17I came out.
00:47:18Yeah.
00:47:19They almost started going, no one, no one in anywhere in the corner of the room did
00:47:22not know I was gay.
00:47:23The more like going, Oh Jesus, he stole people.
00:47:25Yeah.
00:47:26And, um, and the, I think my experiences would be very typical of what most people coming out
00:47:32would have had.
00:47:32So there'd be, there'd be love and engagement to be rejected, you know, as like anyone from
00:47:36the wider community.
00:47:37Yeah.
00:47:37But my parents always deeply loved me and again, want to wrap me in this kind of a sense of
00:47:42protection and care.
00:47:44Um, but I've anything, it's been a huge benefit for me.
00:47:47There's a lot of, a lot of people, you've almost said the, in society, because being anyone
00:47:52can be LGBT.
00:47:53And because of that, there's a wider sense of connection.
00:47:56So it's, and for people, the most peculiar thing happens is that being gay seems to cancel out
00:48:00the travel thing for people.
00:48:02I find it fascinating.
00:48:03Cause I think in my mind and most travel, all travelers, cause I've never been not a traveler.
00:48:06No, it's be, no, who I am.
00:48:08But when these combine, a lot of people kind of going, I know that doesn't work.
00:48:11This is something, something peculiar, something queer.
00:48:13You know, literally.
00:48:15And, um,
00:48:15You have to, you have to choose one.
00:48:16Yeah.
00:48:17Pick one rather than going, I don't know how to pick one.
00:48:18I'm me.
00:48:19But the, but you know, the people, there's this cognitive distance and stuff like going,
00:48:22these two things don't meet when we, we know in reality, of course they do.
00:48:25They've always have.
00:48:26What do you work at?
00:48:28Like what's the, what's the, how do you spend the week?
00:48:30No, like at the moment I'm working on 18 different oral history collections.
00:48:34They're all based around objects.
00:48:36And that's lovely.
00:48:36I know kind of saying that sounds like a huge stretch.
00:48:38Yeah.
00:48:38It's passion and it's love.
00:48:40I'm rediscovering part of my own history and working with people in our histories.
00:48:44I love our own histories.
00:48:45I love our own version of histories.
00:48:46Even at the most like wonderfully creative things, it's what people remember or respond to.
00:48:51And they can be so different than the establishment histories.
00:48:54I think they, they're, they're equally valid.
00:48:56Um, and people just don't get to share those.
00:49:00And what happens is because of the high levels of trauma and really serious high levels of trauma.
00:49:04I mean, the life expectancy for the average driver man is 61.
00:49:08And the medium age has been, which means 50% died before the age of 38.
00:49:11Which means half our people, 19, is, is middle aged.
00:49:15Do you know?
00:49:15One 11 people at a rate conservative remember passed by suicide.
00:49:19We believe it's much higher.
00:49:21Um, so why, what is the cause of the suicide?
00:49:24Each case is individual.
00:49:25But what do you think is the...
00:49:26Um, to be honest, I do think it's a, it's, it's, it's systemic discrimination racism.
00:49:33Do you know?
00:49:33I mean, we can always fall back and we all go to the points of individual cases.
00:49:37But when we're so widespread, and it's such a small population, we're less than one percentage
00:49:41of the general population.
00:49:42When it's so widespread, it's so consistent, that we kind of can't just be blaming the people themselves.
00:49:47We need to look at the environment we've been forced into, the situation we've been forced into,
00:49:50the lack of services and supports that are there.
00:49:54What are some of the things that travellers want?
00:49:57Oh, I think, I think what we want is what everybody else wants.
00:49:59Like we want peace, we want safety, we want some accommodation,
00:50:03we want to be able to prosper, good education, health.
00:50:06Like it's nothing unusual.
00:50:08Do you know, I mean, like when we were saying what travellers want is,
00:50:09what do people want to need?
00:50:11Do you know, like, kind of going, the, like, it's, it's what everybody else wants.
00:50:15We all want to be able to, to live the best lives that we can live
00:50:18and be in the spaces that we can be as the, the most beautiful, enriched people that we are
00:50:25and to be able to celebrate and grow that.
00:50:26Like, there's nothing unusual.
00:50:28You know, it's not, it's not a mystery.
00:50:29Well, in terms of, kind of practical, in terms of hotels, I say,
00:50:33they need to be well-serviced.
00:50:35Well-serviced.
00:50:36They need to be safe to live there.
00:50:37Safe to live in.
00:50:37And also in spaces where you have local amenities, transport, crèches,
00:50:43you know, the basics of life.
00:50:45Yeah.
00:50:45It's nothing, it's nothing.
00:50:48Sometimes people talk about it as almost as people are requesting something extraordinary.
00:50:52People just want to be able to live and live in a way that is respectful for their identity
00:50:56in the ways that they've been able to hold on to themselves.
00:50:58Yeah.
00:51:01I've had travellers come to the show.
00:51:04Yeah.
00:51:05Oh, I heard about that.
00:51:07And their favourite bit is when I do material about travellers.
00:51:11Oh, I've heard mixed responses.
00:51:13Okay.
00:51:14Very mixed.
00:51:14I love your confidence, Sammy.
00:51:16I love your confidence.
00:51:17Yeah.
00:51:18But there's always going to be mixed responses.
00:51:19Yeah, okay.
00:51:20Because sometimes people are going, are you connecting?
00:51:23Are you, like, taking the kind of, literally taking the piss out of people?
00:51:26And sometimes we don't know.
00:51:27Yeah.
00:51:28I'll be taking the piss out of people.
00:51:29So chances are I might be embraced at the high levels.
00:51:34Yeah, no, but I think sometimes there's just anxiety.
00:51:36Are people playing on pain or people just being the satire of going, look how ridiculous
00:51:41the entire situation is, or just having fun as a person.
00:51:44Having fun.
00:51:44Yeah, that moves.
00:51:45It would never be playing on pain.
00:51:47That wouldn't be.
00:51:48Oh, no, but it doesn't mean people don't see it as that.
00:51:49Yeah, yeah.
00:51:50It doesn't mean, like, only if you're used to being ridiculed and at the butt of jokes
00:51:53and being kind of othered all the time, if you hear it, even though it might
00:51:56be meant a different way, you might generally respond that way.
00:51:58You go, oh, another one.
00:51:59Yeah, yeah.
00:52:00And then sometimes when people laugh, you're going, are you laughing at the joke?
00:52:04Are you laughing at the people the joke's about?
00:52:06Do you know?
00:52:06And then that can be difficult to navigate.
00:52:08It can be done in a very honest way, in a very legitimate way.
00:52:11But for people who are so used to certain common thread or pattern of the hits and hits and
00:52:16hits, it can be, it can be far more chewier subjects.
00:52:20It can be unhelpful.
00:52:21Yeah.
00:52:22Can you tell me about your name?
00:52:23Yeah.
00:52:24Oh, do you want to tell me?
00:52:25Yeah.
00:52:26So I love it.
00:52:26So I am great and passionately involved with our language, which is Gammon Cant, which
00:52:31most people realise is like, people call it a secret language, which I think is amazing.
00:52:35And it's more of a private use because the first dictionary of it was done by a gentleman
00:52:40called Leyland in the 1882.
00:52:44And it was kind of, he discovered the language of course, you know, the secret language of
00:52:47Ireland.
00:52:47And so it's the, my father is also very engaged with it.
00:52:50So my family people would be wards, which is a bard.
00:52:54Dune is one interpretation of a clan.
00:52:57And I'll say D, which would be like a descendant off or a member off.
00:53:00So I'm a member of the ward family, you know, and it's a way that I find for myself is
00:53:03very
00:53:03important for me to pull in my identity and kind of going, this is actually who I am.
00:53:06So that's, it's in cant, is it?
00:53:09And it's own?
00:53:10Yeah, Dibardun.
00:53:11Own Dibardun.
00:53:12Yeah, which is again, it's just, our cant, our gammon cant is just a variation of Irish
00:53:16in Excel, but also the syntax is very different.
00:53:18It's an English syntax.
00:53:19So it's grown very differently.
00:53:21Like one of the earliest, one of my favourite words actually, is a word called Olami, which
00:53:25means the darkness of the night, that's found in Oum script.
00:53:28Now like Oum itself is just, is just an alphabet in itself.
00:53:31It wasn't a linguistic form.
00:53:32So we know that these languages that we've carried parts of an ancient language that members
00:53:36of our own.
00:53:37And then there's parts of, like you know yourself, how some of our language has become a part
00:53:41of the wider language.
00:53:42Then who has ever heard Bjor, and Fien, and Gammy, and Monica, you're kind of going
00:53:46to talk in our talk.
00:53:47It's very Toome.
00:53:48Yeah.
00:53:49But also it's wider.
00:53:50And it's usually, it's based around, as well as if you have an area that's traditionally
00:53:54a market town, a lot of people would have had opportunities to meet from far more travelers.
00:53:58It would be a part of the linguistic flow.
00:54:00And even things like tome.
00:54:01I love it.
00:54:02I grew up with tome.
00:54:03Now it's a bit confusing.
00:54:03It wouldn't be how I'd spell it, because it comes across as tommy.
00:54:06But it is.
00:54:07Budgie tome.
00:54:07What does that mean?
00:54:08No, sorry, Budgie tome?
00:54:09Yeah, is that it?
00:54:10No.
00:54:10Well, you have Mooney tome, which is really good.
00:54:13The tome is good.
00:54:14Yeah.
00:54:14Mooney is very good, or something that's blessed.
00:54:17And then you'd say, yeah, so that's just, any other words.
00:54:19Trum, trum, trum.
00:54:20Trum.
00:54:21Krush na tobra narse.
00:54:22Yeah, which means, krush on down the road.
00:54:25It's all I know.
00:54:26Yeah, yeah.
00:54:26But it's there.
00:54:27Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:54:28And then there's the sayings, and proverbs, and songs, and witticisms, and just, like,
00:54:33gestures that exist within it, that it's a part of the wider Irish tradition, which
00:54:38is part of the wider, like, I mean, of the island, of the nation, of the wider people,
00:54:41that, like, it just isn't funded, researched properly, shared, taught in a way.
00:54:46I wish there was something practical that we could do in terms of healthcare funding,
00:54:55and healthcare intervention, and the provisions of healthcare, and...
00:55:01Sounds like you're signing up now, Tommy.
00:55:03Signing up.
00:55:04And there are always ways, and there are templates that have been working, and they're
00:55:08not in any way perfect, but have provided, like, powerful impacts.
00:55:11Like, it's not about finding the perfect solutions, it's about working with people
00:55:15as best we can.
00:55:16Yeah.
00:55:17Yeah.
00:55:18No, Tommy, thank you.
00:55:19Thanks for coming on.
00:55:21Appreciate that.
00:55:21Thanks very much.
00:55:21Thanks for talking to me.
00:55:22And I appreciate that.
00:55:26And now, ladies and gentlemen, would you please welcome, all the way from County Cork,
00:55:30it's Cardinals performing Roseland from their debut EP.
00:55:38I went down to a curtain street station, where I first said my last goodbye.
00:55:46If love was there, it was sin in the air, it only came here to die.
00:56:06I was only sixteen when I found her, still wrapped up in my pride.
00:56:14At night and God guards you forever, write to me and say goodbye.
00:56:20So softly I didn't touch your face, was the first time like the last.
00:56:28I don't know why I treat you so kind, when you're always putting me around.
00:56:35In war of desperation, I cross upon my wall.
00:56:41Tired religious vocation, and across the end of it all.
00:57:05Tired religious vocation, and across the end of it all.
00:57:11But it was sin in the air, it only came here to die.
00:57:30Now I'm sick as a dog when I found her
00:57:34Still wrapped up in my pride
00:57:37At night and God nudged you forever
00:57:41Write to me and let you goodbye
00:57:44So softly I didn't kiss the face
00:57:47Was the first time I'd blast
00:57:51I don't know why I'd treat you so kind
00:57:54When you're always putting me last
00:57:59A warm desperation
00:58:01That I cross upon my wall
00:58:05A tireless justification
00:58:08And a cross at the end of it all
00:58:36So softly I then kissed her palest
00:58:39Was the first time I'd blast
00:58:42I don't know why I'd treat you so kind
00:58:46See you're always putting me
00:58:50Fast and war of desperation
00:58:53I cross upon my wall
00:58:57A tireless religious vocation
00:59:00And a cross at the end of it all
00:59:18And a cross at the end of it all
00:59:22And a cross at the end of it all
00:59:22Fire at the end of it all
00:59:24I don't know why I'm not going to die
00:59:24But it's a lie
00:59:24And a cross at the end of it all
00:59:27But it's still so kind of
00:59:27It's still so kind of
00:59:32I will not fight
00:59:33Can't wait
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