- 5 hours ago
In an exclusive interview with India Today TV, Brazilian President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva spoke about ties with India, AI Summit, his equations with US President Trump and on a wide range of issues.
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00:13I got along very well with President Obama, I got along very well with President Biden,
00:20and now I want to get along also very well with President Trump.
00:27The relationship between Brazil and India, it has to be very strong.
00:35My theory is the theory of Mohammed Gandhi, the role model of my life is Gandhi.
00:50Hello and welcome.
00:51This is a special broadcast, and on 5 Live today, we are taking a bit of a break from
00:57regular programming to bring you a glimpse of an extremely fascinating conversation that
01:03India today has secured.
01:05At a time when the world order seems to be shifting almost by the hour.
01:09Every day brings a new war, a new trade deal, a new tariff.
01:14And then also, there is churn.
01:16Our equations with every nation, big or small, matters more than ever now.
01:24One such significant nation is actually Brazil.
01:27The largest economy in Latin America, a founding voice of BRICS.
01:33A country that believes that Global South must shape the next chapter of global power.
01:39Just like India.
01:41And at the helm of it all is one man.
01:45That man on your screen over there in the hot seat.
01:48Louise Inasio Lula da Silva, for India Lula, President Lula as we say, is not a distinct figure.
01:57He worked closely with former Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in shaping the early BRICS vision.
02:03He has backed India's claim for a permanent seat at the UN Security Council.
02:09He sees New Delhi not just as a co-author of a more multipolar world, but for energy, agriculture, to
02:19defence and climate diplomacy.
02:22India-Brazil ties are no longer just peripheral, they are strategic.
02:27As great power rivalries intensify, as supply chains are redrawn, as Global South demands a stronger voice,
02:36the conversation between Brazil and New Delhi becomes even more critical.
02:43Now with that context, let us bring to you a world-exclusive chat with the President there of Brazil.
02:54President Lula has had a 52-minute candid, direct, no-holds-barred conversation with India today.
03:02And in it, he spoke on BRICS, on Trump, on Gandhi, the capture of, you know, the so-called Venezuelan,
03:12you know, as well.
03:13And also, one of my favourite parts of that interview over there, it's not just Putin and Kim Jong-un.
03:20Lula also has plans to live till 120 years and just might with this very regimented fitness routine that he
03:30has spoken about in detail in that conversation.
03:34So, all that and much more is what we are going to unfold on the programme today.
03:41And that, of course, cannot be had without our brilliant reporters and editors.
03:46I am joined now in this conversation with Geeta Mohan. Hello!
03:51Have you recovered?
03:53Still reeling under the fact that we are not meeting world leaders, these are statesmen.
03:58Yes.
03:58Putin, Lula, they are statesmen.
04:00Yeah.
04:01And, you know, Geeta, when we are chatting about this interview in the newsroom and firstly, congratulations.
04:07What an interview it is.
04:08I heard the whole 52 minutes over there.
04:11And you described to me that it is not just meaty, consequential, it's packed with headlines.
04:18Yes.
04:18You want to go with what was your favourite line out of the interview?
04:23Well, we thought he would be speaking over a lot of people, a lot of things, a lot of leaders,
04:28but when he said Mahatma Gandhi and non-violence, that really stuck.
04:32You know, that's a man who's seen the world, has lived through, he said, I've grown with the ideas of
04:38Mahatma Gandhi and that Mahatma Gandhi is his inspiration.
04:41So talking about non-violence and he actually said that when I go meet Trump, I'd like to take that.
04:47I'd like to take Gandhi with me.
04:49You know, that was significant.
04:51Yeah.
04:51Comes from India, sitting on Indian soil, talking about Mahatma Gandhi.
04:54Is it a good time for me to ask if your Brazilian has been brushed up after that interview?
04:59Oh, well, no.
05:02Not at all.
05:03Although it was brilliant because to have somebody who is over 80 and that alert, look at him, how sharp
05:13and how fit.
05:15Fitness is something I paid specific importance to when I heard that entire interview, we'll come to that as well.
05:22But I think for me, the headline was clearly what he said on Trump.
05:25He was very categorical about it.
05:28And, you know, how do we even start that?
05:31He you know now that, you know, Brazil and United States have had this kind of complicated relationship, just like
05:39India has also had.
05:40But he handled it rather well.
05:42You want to give us the exact question you asked and then we'll go play an excerpt of that.
05:47Well, yes, the fact that it's a very difficult.
05:50So I said, OK, let's talk about Trump. It's a very difficult relationship.
05:53How are you handling it? Navigating that space with Trump.
05:56And what do you think of Trump? Define Trump for us.
05:59Yeah. And he had a very candid.
06:01In fact, he was very candid, Sonal.
06:03He was not like most of the leaders who are very guarded these days about Trump.
06:08He was rather candid. I did not expect the answers to be this fiery.
06:11Yeah. We'll get to the answers and let the suspense brew for a little bit more.
06:16But it's not just Trump that he spoke about. He spoke about Prime Minister Modi as well.
06:22What was the big highlight on that front?
06:23The fact that he sees what Prime Minister Modi wants to do and what Prime Minister Modi's vision is.
06:30So when you're talking about the West and the Global South, he now makes a clear distinction.
06:37Most of the leaders from the Global South make that distinction, Sonal, where they say that this is an alternative.
06:42And that's why he spoke at length about BRICS. This is an alternative.
06:45And in that alternative realm, as is Brazil, so is the Premier of India. Very, very important.
06:54So he says that if the world needs a better, brighter future, it comes with better, greater partnership with Prime
07:02Minister Modi.
07:03So that's the importance he's attaching to Prime Minister Modi.
07:06And this is just before his bilateral meeting with Prime Minister Modi.
07:10And he's come with a massive delegation, Sonal, about 30, 40 business leaders at the business forum today.
07:17And they're looking at changing the numbers, the number game in trade between India and Brazil.
07:24So that, again, you know, the significance Brazil attaches to India today, as opposed to in the past,
07:30but also looking at how they want to be part of the growth story.
07:34And India is the growth story.
07:37So he says it all.
07:38Indeed.
07:38He says it all.
07:39Yeah, he's not minced his words at all.
07:41Not at all.
07:41But let's try and give our viewers a bit of a teaser at this point.
07:45Let's try and show you a little bit of a snippet of how President Lula actually responded
07:52when India today asked him on his relationship with Donald Trump and his straight ties with the United States.
08:00Listen in.
08:03And I enjoyed to be respected, too.
08:05That's a very strong message, not just to President Trump, to the world, but to your people as well,
08:11that you want critical minerals to be produced and to finally be manufactured into a final product within Brazil.
08:19Having said that, let's then talk about President Trump and your relationship with him.
08:25From I have no relationship with Trump, to a meeting, to now you're headed to the United States of America
08:32probably next month.
08:34How do you define your relationship with Trump?
08:36How do you define President Trump?
08:43Well, I would like to say something that is very serious.
08:49I got along very well with President Bush.
08:54I got along very well with President Obama.
08:58I got along very well with President Biden.
09:01And now I want to get along also very well with President Trump.
09:05The relationship between Brazil and the U.S. has more than 200 years of existence, diplomatic relations.
09:13And I want to continue to be a strong relationship.
09:17That's what I want.
09:19With the freedom that the U.S. wants for them and the freedom that I wish for Brazil.
09:26Brazil has a trade with the U.S. of 80 billion dollars, 40 billion that Brazil exports and 40 billion
09:37that we import from the U.S.
09:39And there's a surplus in the trade for the U.S.
09:41The U.S. represents only 12 percent of the Brazilian trade balance.
09:47Of these 12 percent, 22 percent received the tariffs from Trump.
09:54It's not the end of the world.
09:58And we did not apply the reciprocity law because we believe in the capacity to negotiate from the Brazilian side.
10:06I have my chancellor with me.
10:08I have my finance minister.
10:10And I have the vice president of the republic that are negotiating with the U.S. Trump administration.
10:16And I propose to him a meeting person-to-person in March.
10:21Let's see what will be the date so that we can put things on the table, the issues on the
10:27table, and reach the agreement that we have to make.
10:29At any level, I – there's nothing forbidden issue to discuss with President Trump on trade matters.
10:37What I cannot discuss – put in discussion is my sovereignty and the democracy in Brazil.
10:41This is something that is – belongs to me and my people.
10:45But from the trade viewpoint, I'm willing to negotiate with the U.S.
10:51As I'm going to negotiate tomorrow with Prime Minister Modi.
10:55I came here to discuss with Prime Minister Modi what is good for Brazil and for India in our relation.
11:02What can Brazil can buy from India and sell to India?
11:06What can our business sector can build partnerships?
11:11Because this is what's important for the people.
11:14What will the people gain with all this – with these things?
11:19It's not just coming from the U.S.
11:22It can not only the U.S. win to be the winner only alone.
11:27What we want – and that's why we advocate multilateralism.
11:34Very clear words, no? Very, very. He's not mincing his words.
11:37And you see that very clearly, right?
11:39You see that U.S. is one of Brazil's largest trading partners as well.
11:44We understand it's a major investor.
11:45And I like how his approach with Trump is very strategic.
11:50You know, despite the tariffs, despite the threats.
11:53And you made sure you pointed that out as well in your question.
11:56He still is saying, no, let's make it win-win.
12:00Let's make it happen.
12:01He's very strategic. He's passionate, but he's strategic.
12:04That's what I noticed.
12:05Because he's explaining it. He's saying that Brazil is one of those rare countries with which Brazil has a deficit
12:11of trade.
12:12With India, India has a huge advantage. America is in deficit.
12:17With most countries, America is in deficit.
12:19But with Brazil, it's the other way around.
12:21No reason why Trump should be complaining and yet look at the complaints and the problems.
12:26There's a time, and I had asked him this, that you once said you have no relationship with Trump.
12:33But soon realizing that you need to engage the man, you have engaged him, and now you're headed to America.
12:39And he says that very clearly, Sonal.
12:41He says that, yes, we are there to negotiate because the fear of a destabilized South America and the Caribbean
12:50is too much for Brazil.
12:52Too much for any country with a recession setting in or economy not really doing very well anywhere in the
13:00world.
13:01Wars are not a great idea.
13:03Instability is not a great idea.
13:05The realization, the understanding and being pragmatic about it and saying, well, I need to go.
13:11Negotiations have not started yet because Maria asked.
13:13And he said, no, we've not started talking yet, but we will.
13:17And when negotiations begin, we're going to make sure that we negotiate for...
13:21That's a strong signaling, right?
13:22That's a very, very strong signaling.
13:23But a lot of leaders you meet also tell you, right, that Trump is very different on-camera versus off
13:29-camera.
13:31I want viewers to take a glimpse of this, and this is why programs like these are important.
13:36It's not just about what the camera captures.
13:39It's about what the reporter really captures, which is what I want to understand from you, Geeta.
13:44What was his sense on Trump?
13:46We hear wild stories from different people, but what did you gauge?
13:50I think he's going in with his eyes open.
13:54But I could sense what we all sense when we talk to most of the leaders today is the unpredictability.
14:02So if you ask him, when I said that, you know, what are you going in with?
14:05Because it is Trump we're talking about.
14:07And is he very different?
14:09He was candid about it.
14:11Most of the leaders are very guarded about talking and discussing Trump.
14:15He said...
14:15Everybody is guarded except Trump.
14:17Except Trump.
14:18That's so true.
14:20But he also was not.
14:22He was not very guarded.
14:23He was candid but careful.
14:24Where he actually went ahead and said that he's very different.
14:28Trump is very different when you're engaging him in a closed room without cameras.
14:32He's very different.
14:33And the moment he's out there, he's different.
14:37And he defined it and described it as somebody who is a marketing person,
14:42who takes to marketing when he needs to sell something, an idea, a narrative.
14:48But when he's in a closed room, he's discussing and he's talking.
14:52So I think he's going into that conversation with Trump, meaning business.
14:58And the stakes are very high.
15:01Stakes are high, but nobody seems to have cracked it with Trump.
15:03We'll see how this one goes.
15:05We're all hit in trial, as they say at the moment.
15:08And waiting to see what the agreements really are.
15:10Because we have signed one and we're waiting to get the fine print.
15:14Yes, the fine print there, that's where all the devil is.
15:17But let's move on now to the other burning question of the hour.
15:21And, you know, talking about Trump, it takes me to the next question that you guys hit upon in the
15:26interview.
15:27And it was on Venezuela.
15:28Yes.
15:29How do other world leaders respond is absolutely critical.
15:33I loved his answer.
15:34He was just bang on.
15:36He did not mince his words.
15:37We'll play that in a bit.
15:38But how significant is his response to Venezuela on the day when Trump has just released a one-week deadline
15:47of sorts for Iran as well?
15:49On a day like this, how significant do you think these responses are?
15:53Very significant.
15:54Because he mentioned all these uncertainties in most parts of the world, including Israel, the Russia-Ukraine situation, so on
16:03and so forth.
16:04But Venezuela took them by surprise because they all knew that, you know, there is going to be some action,
16:10some movement.
16:12And they're not really very great friends with Maduro, especially after the recently held elections where it was closed door
16:19and Maduro did not allow observers to enter.
16:22Brazil wanted observers, all of that.
16:24So they were not very happy with the situation, right?
16:26And they really wanted to ensure that there's transparency.
16:30So they do want elections in Venezuela.
16:35They want free and fair elections in Venezuela.
16:38But impingement on sovereignty is something that Brazil does not accept.
16:43And he said that very clearly there can be no violation of sovereignty.
16:47And he says that is because, and he says there's going to be no tolerance on interference.
16:52And that is to the next one, which is Bolsonaro.
16:55His own country where Trump has been advocating that Bolsonaro, the former president, be released.
17:02And he said he was on trial.
17:04He's in jail and he's going to be there for a very long time.
17:08And with Maduro, the fact that the capture happened, he said it's unacceptable.
17:13These are not ways.
17:14Don't give in all the details just yet.
17:17We're trying to keep the suspense going.
17:18We're trying to give you snippets of that interview because the full interview plays out in the second half of
17:24this evening.
17:25But for now, take a little bit of understanding on what he said on Venezuela.
17:31Here's it.
17:34Known as a very peaceful region.
17:37Now looking at a bit of trouble.
17:40Your backyard is being threatened.
17:42Your country has been threatened by Trump administration, by President Trump himself.
17:47How do you see the action of America in Venezuela?
17:52You have interests there?
17:53Are you looking at going back with oil in Venezuela?
17:58How do you look at what has happened in your backyard?
18:03Well, Venezuela, Brazil's position is very clear.
18:12It was clear in our position when Russia invaded Ukraine, which we condemned, as in Gaza.
18:19And it is very clear now for Venezuela, too.
18:22We cannot accept that a head of state of one country could invade another country and capture the president.
18:30This is unacceptable.
18:32There's no explanation for this.
18:34And it's not acceptable.
18:37Now, Maduro is arrested.
18:39And now, let's see, to consolidate the democratic process in Venezuela.
18:45That this is the interest of what matters now is to reestablish democracy in Venezuela.
18:51That's the most important thing.
18:52And I believe that if Maduro has to be trialed, he has to be trialed in his country, not a
18:58trialed abroad.
19:00It's not acceptable, the interference of one nation over the nation of another nation.
19:07In the 60s, Latin America suffered many military coups d'etat, Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil.
19:17All of them suffered military coups.
19:19And those that had influence was the American embassies of these countries in Latin America.
19:24They had a lot of influence.
19:27There was no tradition of demilitarization.
19:30So Venezuela was a negative experience.
19:33And I hope that the issue in Venezuela could be solved by the people of Venezuela,
19:39and not by foreign interference of any other country.
19:43It has to be solved by the people of Venezuela.
19:47Simple, straightforward, his take is very, very simple.
19:50Maria is also with us, both of them were there.
19:52So, Maria, quick thoughts that I was trying to get from Geeta before this was,
19:56for me, the sharpest answer.
19:58Maria, first don't miss the set.
19:58First don't miss the set.
20:00It's a replica.
20:02We are sitting exactly there.
20:04We were not, this was not meant to be,
20:06this was not meant to be revealed that this will be a replica.
20:09But okay then, now that Geeta has decided to, you know, get the...
20:13We just saw snippets on it.
20:15We've got to switch their seats though.
20:17Oh my God.
20:18Now I'm getting into, you know, all my production hat is on.
20:20The final detour that I was sitting here and Maria was sitting here.
20:23Yes, the production hat is on and I can see that there's a bit of a switch,
20:25but we live with that.
20:26We live with that because content is king.
20:28Let's remember that.
20:29Okay.
20:30So let me come back to Venezuela on this one.
20:32His answer really was bang on.
20:35What did you make of it?
20:37So I'll talk about the larger AI summit and what India has managed to do.
20:42And in that context, we should look at this interview,
20:46which Geeta has managed for the channel.
20:50The message is very clear that India's moment is here
20:53and the world is watching India.
20:55You have top heads of state right here,
21:00President Macron, President Lula.
21:01You have the best minds in AI world right here in India.
21:07You have had, you know, Sam Altman to Qualcomm CEO.
21:11All of them have given interviews to India today as well.
21:15So I'm coming back after interviewing Qualcomm CEO.
21:18Christiana Amon will be on shortly as well.
21:21Look, the fact that the president has chosen to speak in India
21:26is also his message that is going about his equation with Prime Minister Modi.
21:31And I think towards the later part of the interview,
21:33which is very, very fascinating,
21:35where he sums up the equations and relationship with Prime Minister Modi.
21:38And he speaks about the future of India and Brazil.
21:41He says that India and Brazil are on the path of becoming economic superpowers.
21:49While he acknowledges that in present times,
21:52there are a lot of trade deals which are happening between India and Brazil.
21:55And to give you some numbers, because he has given that,
21:58Brazil can have only $15 billion of foreign trade with India.
22:03We need to get it to, right now it is around $15 billion.
22:06It has to go up to $30 to $40 billion of trade.
22:09That is the size of the economy and the two countries.
22:11So there's a lot of mutual respect here.
22:14And a lot of praise on Prime Minister Modi's governance model,
22:17what he has said and achieved in the context of AI in the global south.
22:21And at the same time, Sonal, there's a lot of convergence of ideas between the two leaders,
22:28is what was on display as much.
22:30When we spoke specifically in the context of what Prime Minister Modi has said,
22:35that AI should be child safe and should also have protection from families,
22:42they should have a say in AI that the children use.
22:45He said that yes, that is indeed the way forward and there is a need for having a young generation
22:51which stands protected from the other side of AI, the negative side of AI.
22:58Specifically to the Brazil-India relationship.
23:00I think India and Brazil do not have a very contentious relationship, right?
23:06There has been no major sort of bilateral dispute either.
23:09The relationship is pretty pragmatic.
23:12It's very complementary in how we are geographically set up as well.
23:15And it's increasingly strategic.
23:18Before we go forward with understanding that in a little bit more detail,
23:21let's play out a bit of an excerpt there for our viewers
23:23to see what exactly did President Lula say on India and relationship with India,
23:28when we come back for reactions. Take a look.
23:33The relationship between Brazil and India, it has to be very strong.
23:38I was the- made the first strategic agreement between Brazil and India in my first term.
23:45And now in this trip here, I want to reinforce my relations with India.
23:50We're bringing 300 business men and women from Brazil.
23:55There's more than 300 business men and women from India in the business forum tomorrow that will meet.
24:03Our cultural, political, trade and economic relationship to be very strong.
24:08We want to learn with India and we want to teach what we can ever teach to India.
24:13We want to sell and buy.
24:16We want to show our experience of our companies with the Indian companies to make joint ventures and partnerships.
24:26Brazil can have only 15 billion dollars of foreign trade with India.
24:31We need to get to 30, 40 billion dollars of trade because of the size of our countries and the
24:36economy.
24:36Are you saying, and are you quantifying it, that this is the amount that will come with the business delegation
24:41that has come?
24:49Well, no one cannot buy what it does not know.
24:53So, when I decided to see, come to India and bring a big business delegation, strong delegation,
25:03it's because we are highly interested to learn with the evolution that India is having on the space industry,
25:10on the defense industry, on the pharmaceutical industry.
25:14India has a lot to teach us and we want to learn and exchange experiences because Brazil is also a
25:24great consumer market.
25:26Brazil is the only country in the world that has more than 100 million inhabitants
25:30and it has a single national health system that has a purchasing power that is extraordinary for medication
25:36and pharmaceuticals to treat the health of the people, the government procurement.
25:41And we want India to get to know our potential so that the business sector of India could feel comfortable
25:47to make investments in Brazil
25:49or to build partnerships.
25:53Our Embraer aircraft manufacturing company is going to open a manufacturing aircraft plant in India.
26:00This is what has to happen between Brazil and India.
26:03We just can't rely on the U.S. or rely only on China.
26:07We want that our economies grow because if they grow, the trade flow will also grow and it's going to
26:15be good for India
26:16and it's going to be good for Brazil.
26:18And so, we're the two largest democracies of the global south.
26:22And so, we have to give good examples.
26:26And since my relationship with Prime Minister Modi is a very good relationship, it's very good.
26:32And I respect tremendously the governance of his administration.
26:37I am sure that he also respects my governance in Brazil.
26:41And so, we have to take advantage of this moment to make things happen, make it happen.
26:48I respect his governance and I hope he respects mine as well.
26:51I'm pretty sure that he respects mine.
26:53So, those are the big words there coming in.
26:55As importantly, Maria and Geeta were also pointing out earlier.
26:57But I want to move on to another chapter now, which was really interesting.
27:01And I love that you guys picked it up, which was on the conversation of currency and de-dollarization.
27:08You know, this is so important, so significant.
27:11Because one of the biggest conversations at the moment has been around Brazil and BRICS.
27:15BRICS is creating, apparently creating, on way to creating, will be creating very soon.
27:20He dismissed it.
27:21When all of it's all suspense, let me tell you, Maria.
27:24Wait for it, right? Let me build up.
27:26Wait for it.
27:27What I'm building up for this. This is not happening, guys.
27:30Wait for it. Wait for it.
27:31It's BRICS creating a new currency.
27:34See what happens is, as reporters, we know so much about the story.
27:36And we just assume that our viewers also do.
27:39So, I'm just trying to bring our viewers up to speed with what's happening on the currency issue.
27:43Okay.
27:44Now, is BRICS creating a new common currency?
27:47Is the common currency that will replace US dollar?
27:50That has been a massive debate.
27:52Now, as Maria has already told you, he has dismissed that completely in this interview.
27:58Were you surprised by that?
28:00Were you guys surprised by that at all?
28:01Were you expecting to say that?
28:02Okay, so he framed it a little differently.
28:04He said, Wiley believes that when India and Brazil are doing trade, they should do in their respective currencies.
28:11And similarly, if there are trade happening between various countries, that should happen between those currencies.
28:16But to imagine or think that there can be a world where dollar will not be in circulation as much
28:24as it is now, that's not happening.
28:25And to the specific question that Gita asked.
28:28Yes.
28:29Right?
28:30On BRICS currency.
28:54On BRICS currency.
28:55That's important.
28:56Before meeting Trump, if he says, no, we should look at a currency, would be bad.
29:00But he did not shy away from talking about de-dollarization.
29:03He said, we should go to our national currencies and trade in national currency.
29:08Why not?
29:08Why not strengthen your own currency?
29:11But BRICS currency right now, which is a very sensitive matter for President Trump.
29:15He's been talking about it.
29:16Yeah.
29:17And he's headed to Washington DC.
29:18And in fact, he went on to say that no one proposed to create the BRICS currency.
29:24There's been no such proposal also.
29:26There's no such proposal.
29:27He's discussing it to the extent that there should be no problem on that when he meets Trump.
29:31Yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:31But clearly, we all know there's no smoke without fire.
29:34We know where it comes from.
29:36We now know it's been dismissed.
29:37But here is the dismissal on camera.
29:40You can see it for yourself.
29:53Can BRICS then de-dollarize the global economy?
29:59She means the US dollar.
30:03Well, let me say something to you.
30:07I respect very much the decisions that are made by the countries.
30:12I advocated that it's not necessary that a trade agreement between Brazil and India
30:20would have to be done with US dollars.
30:25What I defend is that we can use our own currencies.
30:32It's difficult.
30:33Yes, it is difficult, but we can try.
30:36No one has to rely on the dollar.
30:39But you can't also undo this system overnight.
30:43You have to take into account the difficulties of each nation.
30:46What I believe in concrete terms is that many goods not – I'm not thinking about this now.
30:52For a long time, I've been thinking about this.
30:53My first term in Brazil, we established with Argentina the purchase from small enterprises
31:00in Brazilian currency and Argentinian currency.
31:03This is a process that we have to discuss.
31:05What is more advantageous for a country, for Brazil, and what is more advantageous for each country
31:10that negotiates with other countries?
31:12Obviously, I understand the reasons of the Americas that they don't want to create other currencies
31:20because the dollar is the world currency, the strongest currency that we have in the world.
31:24And so I understand their concern.
31:26The bottom line is that they took over the strength of the dollar, and they created an international
31:32currency that impacts any country.
31:35So we have also to take into account how we're going to do this.
31:39It's not – it's not a fantasy.
31:42It's not something that you can do overnight.
31:45But it's something that we have to start to think it over, and that Brazil and India
31:50could make their trade.
31:53Do we need the dollar?
31:54That's the question that we have to ask.
31:55Or can we exchange the trade with our own currencies?
32:01And so our business sector – everybody has to think about that.
32:05And let's see what is the best for us.
32:07We do not have to be locked of things to the past.
32:11Let's try to innovate and move to the future to see if it improves the living standards of our people.
32:17If it's not to improve the living standards, we won't do anything.
32:20But I believe it can improve our living standards.
32:23Time.
32:24Okay, so those were a few glimpses.
32:26But can we move to off-camp chats now for a bit?
32:29Can I get both of your perspective on what the dynamics was like?
32:34How big was the team?
32:35And I'm very curious about how this live translation happens.
32:39I know Geeta has prior sort of experience in this.
32:42She had that with Putin as well.
32:44And a few other leaders.
32:45And a few other leaders.
32:46But how exactly does it happen?
32:48Is there a translator there?
32:49And are you all also wearing earpieces when this happens?
32:52Yeah.
32:53So it's very interesting because when he's speaking,
32:55the interpreter can't be in the same room.
32:58Because otherwise the noise will travel and his mic will pick up the noise.
33:02It is simultaneous translation, interpretation.
33:05Which means he's sitting.
33:07We have our earpieces.
33:08The interpreter is sitting in the other room.
33:10There's another room with all our switchers
33:13and all the production team sitting over there.
33:15He's sitting there.
33:17And when I'm asking the question,
33:20it is real-time interpreter to the president in Portuguese.
33:24And when he's responding, it's real-time interpreted to us in our ear.
33:29So if we have a counter, we can also, you know, do a counter question.
33:32Yeah, because it seemed like it was absolutely seamless.
33:35Which is why Sonal, a lot of people say,
33:36are these all questions scripted and prepared?
33:38No.
33:39Yeah.
33:40We had a brief informal interaction with him.
33:43And it was absolutely off the record.
33:46But there's one thing that I can say on the record, which he said.
33:50He held us and he said, you know, you can ask me anything you want.
33:55What are you saying?
33:57Yes.
33:58What are you saying?
33:59We don't meet world leaders like that very often.
34:02Putin.
34:03Yeah.
34:03No questions given in advance.
34:06Wow.
34:07These are statesmen.
34:08That's why I said when I began, they're not just leaders.
34:11They're statesmen.
34:12They've stayed in power.
34:13They've seen global politics.
34:15They've seen the world change in front of them.
34:17They are prepared.
34:18He's over 80 and look how alert he is.
34:20Yeah.
34:21He knew what he wanted to say, how he wanted.
34:23And he said, I'm okay with the comfortable questions and with the uncomfortable ones.
34:28Damn.
34:28You ask whatever you want.
34:29This is like a reporter's dream interview, you know?
34:32It is.
34:32When somebody says, hand up and say.
34:34Any question.
34:36And again, a lot of people say, oh, this is also fake, you know.
34:39No.
34:40Every president needs to be prepared.
34:42Yeah.
34:42So we send them themes that we would be focusing on.
34:46Yeah.
34:46Areas we'd be focusing on, but not specifics.
34:49So I could do a counter on Bolsonaro.
34:51He did not answer the first time.
34:52I counted.
34:53I said, no.
34:54Let's go back.
34:55So is Bolsonaro going to be a part of your conversation with Trump or not?
34:59Yeah.
34:59And that's when he responded.
35:00He did not respond the first time around.
35:02Yeah.
35:03Similarly on the social media question.
35:06Hmm.
35:06We persisted.
35:07Hmm.
35:08And there was a follow up on.
35:10What was the question?
35:11So there was a question that I, we had asked about social media and the communication
35:16which happens on social media.
35:17Should the world leaders.
35:19You asked.
35:19Speaking over phone perhaps.
35:21Oh, okay.
35:21Rather than making big policy announcements on social media.
35:25Oh, we may know a man who does that.
35:27We may know somebody.
35:28So first he started talking about the negatives of social media and everything.
35:33And then I went back to it and I said that we are talking about, do you think that's the
35:38right thing to do?
35:39And then he said that leaders should have the ability of, you know, picking up the phone
35:43and speaking to each other.
35:44That he would not do it.
35:45He would not do it.
35:47Yeah.
35:47He would not basically go on X and make an announcement.
35:51He would not do it.
35:51He was saying leaders should be able to pick up the phone and talk.
35:54Pick up the phone and talk.
35:55Yeah.
35:55Yeah.
35:55And in terms of the team, Sonu.
35:57You know, we think that.
35:58But what?
35:59Yeah.
35:59I thought we're in the midst of AI summit, you'll tell me some AI bot was like translating
36:03for you all and all.
36:04This is like human.
36:05Huh?
36:05This is the big story.
36:07There's a human who's been with him over 30 years.
36:09Ah.
36:10He almost, I think, can finish the president's sentence without the president having to
36:14do it.
36:15Yes, he knows his mind.
36:15Just about.
36:16Yeah, yeah.
36:17And you spoke about how alert he was.
36:20Yeah.
36:20He's given tips, I understand.
36:23And he quizzed Maria on what time she wakes up, what is she doing.
36:27But that is not the thing.
36:29In the newsroom when Sonal and I were discussing, she jumped out of her seat.
36:33She said, really?
36:34He said this?
36:35So, yes, Sonal.
36:36What did he say?
36:37Oh, yeah.
36:37We'll tell you what he said and I'll tell you why I jumped out of my seat.
36:40Because I get very excited about conversations on health and this one particularly was on
36:45longevity.
36:46So, there was a time we reported here on India Today as well that, you know, this is basically
36:50in this conversation, President Lula has said, move aside Putin, move aside King John
36:56Un.
36:56I am going to live till 120 and this is the reason why.
37:01I'm sure.
37:02I have a pact with God.
37:03I am?
37:03I have a pact with God that I'll have life till 120 and I'm strong and I will be strong.
37:11So, what exactly was that pact with God and this strong sense?
37:16Where does it come from?
37:18All those details in this excerpt.
37:20Check it out.
37:22You are 80.
37:24You say that you have purpose of a 30-year-old.
37:27What's your purpose and what, according to you, is your legacy?
37:35My purpose is the first.
37:36First of all is, what time did you wake up today in the morning?
37:41I woke up at 5.30.
37:435.30.
37:44And what did you do at 5.30 in the morning?
37:47Because I'm fasting, I read namaz.
37:56Wow.
37:57Wow.
38:00Wow.
38:01In Delhi.
38:02And I do this every day.
38:04Outside?
38:05In Delhi?
38:05For fora de Delhi?
38:06Como é que se fez na academia?
38:08Onde se fez andou isso?
38:10In the fitness.
38:12At the hotel, there's a fitness center.
38:15And I also walk in Brazil every day.
38:195.30 in the morning, I wake up to work out one hour of gymnastics and one hour of muscle
38:26building because I don't want to age.
38:32I want to be strong.
38:35I have a pact with God that I'll live till 120 years.
38:40Wow.
38:42And I heard a news in the newspaper that a man, the man that was going to live up to
38:48120 years of age has been already born.
38:53Maybe I'm that man.
38:54Who knows?
38:56Maybe you are.
38:57Maybe you are.
39:00Alright, so are you both getting inspired by that?
39:03Geeta, are you getting up at 5.30 now to do your treadmill walks?
39:06Because that's the key.
39:07Not 5.30 for sure.
39:09I do a 10.30 p.m. bulletin.
39:12So not 5.30 for sure.
39:13But yes, inspiring.
39:15It's a life goal to have somebody sit across you so alert at his age and so fit at his
39:21age.
39:22So yes, it's a life goal.
39:23I remember this conversation once that we had in the newsroom in one of the news meetings
39:27and we were talking about whether or not politicians in India are fit.
39:31And Maria and I were sort of sparring over the fact that I said, oh, politicians also have a tough
39:36life.
39:36And she said, yeah, yeah.
39:37I said, it's so stressful.
39:38And there were others like, no, come on.
39:40What do you mean politicians' life is tough?
39:42They have all the perks in the world.
39:44But this is a stressful life.
39:46This is the way to handle it as well.
39:48And Sonan, he is in India.
39:49He's traveling.
39:50He's in another country.
39:51Yeah.
39:52And he's following the routine that he does in Brazil.
39:54Yeah.
39:54He woke up here at 5.30.
39:56He should be jet lagged.
39:57I mean, that's kind of some kind of discipline.
40:00Yeah.
40:01And that's the reason why he says that he has the purpose of a 30-year-old.
40:06Yeah.
40:07And some kind of path that he has with God.
40:10Yeah.
40:10No, I'm sure.
40:11One way to look at it is that a lot of politicians would like it, right?
40:15They would like to feel that they are young.
40:17They would also like to feel that they're doing everything in their capacity.
40:20But what was your sense?
40:21Did it actually come across that he could like walk a mile and just do your thing?
40:25Oh, yes.
40:26Yes.
40:26Absolutely fit.
40:27But it's not just that.
40:29A lot of politicians might want to be that.
40:32But living this life and being this is because you're holding a very important position.
40:37You ought to be this.
40:38Of course.
40:38You better be fit.
40:40You better be alert if you're in that position.
40:43The controversy in America, Sonal, over Joe Biden's health and the last stage of his
40:48presidency, last phase of his presidency was questionable not because he was unhealthy or unwell only.
40:56The fact that he was not mentally alert.
40:58And for that also you need some discipline.
41:01And that exercise, that discipline really helps.
41:04You ought to be alert if you're leading a nation.
41:06But there's so much more that the leaders do that we will decode later that they don't tell on cameras,
41:12on the bills that they are on, on the regime they are on, on how they are, you know, taking,
41:18keeping track of everything, including their poops that go in a suitcase.
41:21Right.
41:22All of that information is there.
41:23But that's perhaps the story for another day.
41:25I want to end on this one.
41:26And this is the one where he speaks about Mahatma Gandhi.
41:30Quick word, Maria, before we go into that chunk on how that conversation even came about.
41:36Him quoting Mahatma Gandhi and saying that I will carry that with me in my conversation with Donald Trump.
41:42Yes.
41:43So when we started discussing particularly his visit now, because it's impending, it's going to happen soon.
41:51And that's where Gita started asking that question.
41:55And then we were talking more about Donald Trump.
41:57And I think he understands that that meeting is a stage of massive negotiations.
42:06And there has to be some guiding principles.
42:09So the more you speak to these leaders or read about them, in my case, I've been reading about them.
42:17Gita gets to interview them as well.
42:18So does Maria.
42:19So, you know, you realize that they have some guiding principles and they turn to Mahatma Gandhi.
42:27Yeah, yeah.
42:28Almost like an eternal presence in their life, integral to their life, guiding them through tough times,
42:37realizing that how Mahatma reacted to particular events, and then they draw inspiration from it.
42:44Also, Maria, at a time when we're looking at conflicts and war everywhere, the fact that he invoked Gandhi and
42:49he said non-violence, that was my highlight.
42:52It's more than just a gesture. You're right about that.
42:54But let's, in fact, listen in to what he said exactly.
42:59The only thing that I know is that I don't want war.
43:02My theory is the theory of Mahatma Gandhi that managed to win and achieve independence of this giant called India
43:16through the example, showing an example, motivating the people that India would have to be free.
43:28This is the example.
43:29This is the example, the role model of my life is Gandhi.
43:32This is the example of things that have to happen.
43:40Brazil has no vocation to go to war.
43:46We have already many domestic issues.
43:49When I took office in 2003, President Bush invited me to participate in the war on Iraq.
44:00And I told President Bush that I never met Saddam Hussein.
44:07Iraq was located 14,000 kilometers away from Brazil, and that my war was against hunger.
44:15We had 54 million Brazilians in hunger in Brazil.
44:19We ended with the hunger in Brazil.
44:22I stayed 15 years out of power.
44:25When I came back now, we had, again, 34 million people in hunger in Brazil.
44:31Again.
44:34All right.
44:35Talking about legacy, talking about what he leaves behind, how long he lives, his relationship with Narendra Modi and Donald
44:42Trump.
44:42This has been a power packed interview and I have to thank both of you for sharing all those excerpts
44:47with us in the behind the scene bits also with us.
44:50Let's remind you now that what you've seen at the moment are just little pieces and bits of that massive
44:5552 minute interview that India Today has got for you.
44:58It's a world exclusive and we play out that entire bit at eight o'clock tonight.
45:03Good night.
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