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In an exclusive interview with India Today, Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva outlined his agenda for the Brazil-India relationship, multipolar global order, emphasising the role of the Global South and the BRICS alliance.
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00:10In a world of unilateral pressure and dominance, Brazil chooses a different path, that of
00:18multipolarity.
00:19Despite sanctions and tariffs by Trump administration, this man has held the line, protecting Brazil's
00:27sovereignty.
00:28He is somebody who is now charting a new course and changing how the rules of engagement of
00:35the world should be.
00:37He has visited India six times and has been awarded with two of India's prestigious awards,
00:44the Indira Gandhi Peace Award as also the Jawaharlal Nehru Award for International Understanding.
00:52We are being joined in an exclusive conversation with the President of Brazil.
00:57President Luis Inacio Lula de Silva, thank you so much.
01:02President Lula stands as the unyielding voice of our fractured times.
01:09He is the champion of the marginalized, survivor of prison and multiple political storms.
01:18His comeback is legendary.
01:20His message uncompromising.
01:23And the message is the global south will not be silenced.
01:28Mr. President, welcome to India today.
01:33Thank you so much, President, for doing this.
01:35You're here for the India AI Impact Summit.
01:39And you have warned the world about the fact that AI should not become a privilege for a
01:46few, nor a tool of manipulation.
01:49How do you think that this summit, and what do you think the summit has achieved for the
01:54global south?
01:59Well, I believe that first of all, just for the fact of Prime Minister Modi have called
02:06for the summit to discuss artificial intelligence, this is already something very positive, very
02:14important.
02:15Because in politics, if you don't make debates, discussions, if you don't have meetings, if
02:22you don't have a mix of people in these debates, you can't manage to build a policy that will
02:29reach consensus to benefit the majority of the people.
02:32It's very important to take in account that artificial intelligence is something very important
02:41for humanity, but it should be the surface of civil society, and that it could make that
02:50the people could improve their living standards.
02:53On the healthcare, artificial intelligence will play a very important role in the education
02:59that can also play a very important role.
03:01But we have to be very careful so that artificial intelligence should not replace the human work,
03:09the human being work, because the bottom line is that Prime Minister Modi governs a country
03:15of 1,400,000,000 inhabitants that have to create jobs, that have to generate income, better
03:22quality of life for the people.
03:23So artificial intelligence has to be at the service of this, at the service of the growth
03:28of the country, of the improvement of the public and private services, and above all, with
03:34the perspective to improve the working conditions of all humanity.
03:40We cannot allow that artificial intelligence will have one owner only, or two owners.
03:48Who has to take over the artificial intelligence is civil society.
03:52And so that's why that this debate here in India was extremely important.
03:57Mr. President, would you then say that AI is more of an enabler rather than a disruptor?
04:05And what are your views on what Prime Minister Modi says with regards to artificial intelligence,
04:10intelligence, that it has to be, have some kind of safety, particularly for the children.
04:18And there has to be artificial intelligence which is guided by the families.
04:27Well, first of all, yes, we have to regulate very rigid regulation, and we believe that this
04:35regulation has to be done through a multilateral institution that will have the size of the
04:42United Nations.
04:44And it has to be regulated to protect, above all, children, adolescents, and women.
04:52Because we cannot allow that artificial intelligence could be used for things that are negative,
05:01that will cause harm and damage to the intimate lives of people, to provoke violence against
05:07people.
05:08So we have to have a regulation.
05:10Obviously that you have two or three owners of platforms that do not wish regulation.
05:17But if we don't regulate and we lose control, I believe that it would not be good for humanity.
05:25It could be profitable for one or other person, but for humanity it will not be good.
05:32So that's why we, rulers, we have to have a clear idea to protect society against this extraordinary
05:41thing that is artificial intelligence.
05:44It's present, sir, the fact that let's get to what we've been talking about just a while
05:51ago, about BRICS, about the alternatives, about strengthening forums in a multipolar world.
05:58How do you realistically see BRICS, which many are now envious of or question the whole block,
06:08how do you see it realistically function as a force to reckon with?
06:16Well, the BRICS was one of the most important things that were created in the last three
06:22decades.
06:24It's important for you to remember that we have the G7 that's been working in the defense
06:30of the richest countries and defending their policies.
06:34You have the G20 that was created on the occasion of the economic global financial crisis of 2008,
06:39that was created in the heart of the U.S., and then you have the BRICS that is representing
06:46global south.
06:48So it's something new because of the global south and having countries like India and China.
06:55just these two countries carry half of the population of the world, if you include Indonesia.
07:04More than half of humanity is participating at the BRICS.
07:07You're going to have a good percentage of those that participate in the BRICS, and then you can
07:11establish new dynamics of trade policy, cultural policy, and in the relationship between the
07:19United States.
07:19So that's why I advocate for multilateralism, because after the Second World War, multilateralism
07:26allowed that we could have the quest of a harmony between the nations so that we can avoid conflicts,
07:33because every war starts with a trade war.
07:37And so we don't need trade wars.
07:40Brazil does not wish a second Cold War.
07:43If the first Cold War was between the U.S. and the Soviet Union, we don't want another
07:49Cold War between China and the U.S.
07:51Brazil wants to trade with the U.S., wants trade with China, with India, with Russia, with Bolivia,
07:59and with all countries in the world.
08:03And I am in favor of free trade, multilateralism, and harmony between the nations.
08:08It's necessary that we should learn to respect the sovereignty of the territory, the cultural
08:15sovereignty of the peoples, of the countries.
08:18And so that's why I am a very strong advocate for BRICS.
08:25BRICS is something new, and it established a relationship between new nations.
08:32We created a bank, the new development bank of the BRICS, that has to work in a different
08:36way from other international institutions like the IMF or World Bank.
08:41We don't need to continue to copycat everything that happened in the 20th century.
08:45We can innovate due to the 21st century, due to the needs of civil society and the advances
08:53of society.
08:54The BRICS is this hope, this is the expectation that we have.
09:00And if everything goes well, I will be here once again in India to participate in the BRICS
09:07summit that is being organized by the Indian government.
09:10But given the differences which are there within this grouping, how do you plan to bridge
09:15it?
09:16How do you propose to bridge it?
09:22The BRICS will strengthen itself and making the right decisions.
09:28For example, when President Trump imposed universal tariffs to all countries, I had a BRICS meeting
09:37through teleconference so that we can make a statement that it was not correct the behavior
09:42of the – behavior of the President of the Republic, like the U.S. President, to impose unilateral
09:49tariffs.
09:52And I think that the BRICS made it clear about Gaza, too.
09:58The BRICS also made a statement about Russia and Ukraine.
10:03Because we condemn the invasion, the territorial invasion of Ukraine.
10:08We condemn very strongly all the killings that happened and genocide in the Gaza Strip.
10:15And that's why it serves the government – BRICS serves for the – besides increasing trade,
10:21we had the IPSA before BRICS.
10:24IPSA was India, Brazil, and South Africa.
10:28IPSA.
10:28Right.
10:29IPSA.
10:29But –
10:30For example, I said already to Prime Minister Modi that the relationship between Brazil and
10:40India, it has to be very strong.
10:44I was the – made the first strategic agreement between Brazil and India in my first term.
10:50And now, in this trip here, I want to reinforce my relations with India.
10:55We're bringing 300 businessmen and women from Brazil.
11:00There's more than 300 businessmen and women from India in the business forum tomorrow that
11:07will meet.
11:08Our cultural, political, trade, and economic relationship should be very strong.
11:12We want to learn with India, and we want to teach what we can ever teach to India.
11:19We want to sell and buy.
11:21We want to show our experience of our companies with the Indian companies to make joint ventures
11:30and partnerships.
11:31Brazil can have only $15 billion of foreign trade with India.
11:36We need to get to 30, $40 billion of trade because of the size of our countries and the
11:41economy.
11:42Are you saying, and are you quantifying it, that this is the amount that will come with
11:45the business delegation that has come?
11:54Well, no one cannot buy what it does not know.
11:59So when I decided to see – come to India and bring a big business delegation, strong delegation,
12:08which is because we are highly interested to learn with the evolution that India is having
12:13on the space industry, on the defense industry, on the pharmaceutical industry.
12:20India has a lot to teach us, and we want to learn and exchange experiences.
12:26And Brazil – because Brazil is also a great consumer market.
12:31Brazil is the only country in the world that has more than 100 million inhabitants and it
12:35has a single national health system that has a purchasing power that is extraordinary
12:40for medication and pharmaceuticals to treat the health of the people, the government
12:46procurement.
12:46And we want India to get to know our potential so that the business sector of India could
12:52feel comfortable to make investments in Brazil or to build partnerships.
12:58Our Embraer aircraft manufacturing company is going to open a manufacturing aircraft plant
13:05in India.
13:06This is what has to happen between Brazil and India.
13:08We just can't rely on the U.S. or rely only on China.
13:12We want that our economies grow because if they grow, the trade flow will also grow, and it's
13:20going to be good for India and it's going to be good for Brazil.
13:23And so we're the two largest democracies of the global south.
13:28And so we have to give good examples.
13:31And since my relationship with Prime Minister Modi is a very good relationship, it's very
13:36good, and I respect tremendously the governance of his administration.
13:43And I am sure that he also respects my governance in Brazil.
13:46And so we have to take advantage of this moment to make things happen, make it happen.
13:52So, Mr. President, let's be more specific.
13:54Can BRICS then de-dollarize the global economy?
14:03Well, let me say something to you.
14:08I respect very much the decisions that are made by the countries.
14:14I advocated that it's not necessary that a trade agreement between Brazil and India would
14:22not have to be done with U.S. dollars.
14:27What I defend is that we can use our own currencies.
14:34It's difficult.
14:35Yes, it is difficult, but we can try.
14:38No one has to rely on the dollar, but you can't also undo this system overnight.
14:44You have to take into account the difficulties of each nation.
14:48What I believe in concrete terms is that many goods not – I'm not thinking about this now.
14:53For a long time, I've been thinking about this.
14:55My first term in Brazil, we established with Argentina the purchase from small enterprises
15:01in Brazilian currency and Argentinian currency.
15:05This is a process that we have to discuss.
15:07What is more advantageous for a country, for Brazil?
15:10And what is more advantageous for each country that negotiates with other countries?
15:13Obviously, I understand the reasons of the Americas that they don't want to create other currencies
15:21because the dollar is the world's currency, the strongest currency that we have in the world.
15:26And so I understand their concern.
15:28The bottom line is that they took over the strength of the dollar, and they created international currency
15:35that impacts any country.
15:37So we have also to take into account how we're going to do this.
15:40It's not a fantasy.
15:43It's not something that you can do overnight.
15:46But it's something that we have to start to think it over, and that Brazil and India could make their
15:53trade.
15:54Do we need the dollar?
15:55That's the question that we have to ask.
15:57Or can we exchange the trade with our own currencies?
16:03And so our business sector, everybody has to think about that, and let's see what is the best for us.
16:08We do not have to be locked of things to the past.
16:13Let's try to innovate and move to the future to see if it improves the living standards of our people.
16:18If it's not to improve the living standard, we won't do anything, but I believe it can improve our living
16:23standards.
16:24Okay.
16:24That's a very important one.
16:26But you're talking national currencies and not a BRICS currency, something India has not been very keen on or has
16:32been rather reluctant about.
16:39No one proposed to create the BRICS currency.
16:42This is not the proposal.
16:44In no moments we said that we were going to create a currency.
16:46But I think it was the Americans that mentioned that during President Biden's administration.
16:52What we want is to see is it possible to negotiate with China with Brazilian currency and with the Chinese
17:00currency?
17:00Is it possible to negotiate with Europe using European currency as a reference?
17:09That's it.
17:10If it is possible, and if our central banks, our federal reserves, and our finance ministries understand that this is
17:18possible and it could bring an advantage to the countries,
17:21and then you start to put in practice to see if this works.
17:26Only that.
17:27But there's no debates within the BRICS to create a new currency, the BRICS currency.
17:31Okay.
17:33Mr. President, we'll shift focus now to Donald Trump, U.S. President.
17:39Absolutely.
17:41But just before that, Maria, I'd like to just go back to your part of the world, your region.
17:47Known as a very peaceful region, now looking at a bit of trouble.
17:53Your backyard is being threatened.
17:55Your country has been threatened by Trump administration, by President Trump himself.
18:00How do you see the action of America in Venezuela?
18:05You have interests there?
18:06Are you looking at going back with oil in Venezuela?
18:12How do you look at what has happened in your backyard?
18:16Well, Brazil's position is very clear.
18:24It was clear in our position when Russia invaded Ukraine, which we condemned, as in Gaza, and it is very
18:33clear now for Venezuela, too.
18:34We cannot accept that a head of state of one country could invade another country and capture the President.
18:43This is unacceptable.
18:45There's no explanation for this, and it's not acceptable.
18:50Now, Maduro is arrested, and now let's see to consolidate the democratic process in Venezuela, that this is the interest
19:00of what matters now, is to reestablish democracy in Venezuela.
19:04That's the most important thing.
19:05And I believe that if Maduro has to be trialed, he has to be trialed in his country, not a
19:11trialed abroad.
19:13It's not acceptable, the interference of one nation over another nation.
19:19In the 60s, Latin America suffered many military coups d'etat, Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Brazil.
19:29All of them suffered military coups.
19:32And those that had influence was the American embassies of these countries in Latin America that had a lot of
19:37influence.
19:39There was no tradition of demilitarization.
19:43So Venezuela was a negative experience, and I hope that the issue in Venezuela could be solved by the people
19:51of Venezuela,
19:52and not by foreign interference of any other country.
19:56It has to be solved by the people of Venezuela.
19:58So, Mr. President, how serious do you evaluate this threat?
20:03Who do you think could be next?
20:05Cuba?
20:06Colombia?
20:07Arabia?
20:08Korea?
20:08Is this threat real?
20:10Or Brazil, for that matter?
20:12Because he's threatened you too.
20:18Well, Brazil, we do not want a confrontation with the U.S., neither with Uruguay.
20:31That's the smallest country in South America.
20:33And even with the smallest island in the world, what we want is to establish a relationship
20:41in a very civilized way, respecting the sovereignty of each country, respecting the culture and
20:49the way of being of each country, and that we should have a negotiation where the two
20:56could win, could be a win-win game for both sides.
21:00And that's how I see President Trump.
21:03That's how I see him.
21:05Brazil does not feel threatened.
21:10And so when Brazil received the tariffs, imposed tariffs, we answered and I wrote an article
21:18for the New York Times showing the mistake of those tariffs that were imposed on Brazil.
21:23And now I am scheduling a person-to-person conversation with President Trump so we can look eye to eye.
21:31And settle the matters between Brazil and the U.S. Brazil is willing to negotiate with
21:36all the countries in the world.
21:43I want to treat the U.S. as I treat India, as I treat China, as I treat any country
21:48in
21:48the world.
21:49I have no preference.
21:52I want to negotiate the interests of my state, my country, respecting the interests of the
21:57other state or the other government.
22:00So in my conversation with Trump, I want to negotiate the issue of fight organized crime
22:06and drug trafficking.
22:08That's what I want to discuss with him.
22:09That's one thing.
22:10And I'm going to take a proposal to President Trump on this issue.
22:13I also want to negotiate with him the critical minerals and rare earth issue.
22:19Brazil has a lot of critical minerals and rare earth.
22:24But we don't want to transfer Brazilian territory into a sanctuary of humanity.
22:29I want to prefer to negotiate in a sovereign way that the transformation process of these
22:36critical minerals should be processed and exported in our country, inside our country, and not
22:43outside our country, and we'll sell it to whoever we wish to sell.
22:49We do not accept to be imposed in position.
22:52These things can only be solved around the negotiation table.
22:57And it's not by the bureaucracy that we'll solve this.
23:01There has to be two heads of state have to sit closely, look to the eye, each one looking
23:08eye to eye, person to person, and say whatever they think.
23:12This is what's going to happen between me and Trump.
23:14We're free to say, I respect everybody.
23:18And I enjoy to be respected too.
23:20That's a very strong message, not just to President Trump, to the world, but to your
23:25people as well, that you want critical minerals to be produced and to finally be manufactured
23:32into a final product within Brazil.
23:35Having said that, let's then talk about President Trump and your relationship with him.
23:40From, I have no relationship with Trump, to a meeting, to now you're headed to the United
23:46States of America probably next month.
23:49How do you define your relationship with Trump?
23:51How do you define President Trump?
23:58Well, I would like to say something that is very serious.
24:04I got along very well with President Bush.
24:09I got along very well with President Obama.
24:13I got along very well with President Biden.
24:15And now I want to get along also very well with President Trump.
24:20The relationship between Brazil and the U.S. has more than 200 years of existence, diplomatic
24:27relations.
24:28And I want to continue to be a strong relationship – that's what I want – with the freedom
24:35that the U.S. wants for them and the freedom that I wish for Brazil.
24:40Brazil has a trade with the U.S. of $80 billion, $40 billion that Brazil exports and $40 billion
24:51that we import from the U.S.
24:54And there's a surplus in the trade for the U.S.
24:56The U.S. represents only 12 percent of the Brazilian trade balance.
25:03Of these 12 percent, 22 percent received the tariffs from Trump.
25:09It's not the end of the world.
25:13And we did not apply the reciprocity law because we believe in the capacity to negotiate from
25:20the Brazilian side.
25:21I have my chancellor with me, I have my finance minister, and I have the vice president of
25:26the republic that are negotiating with the U.S. Trump administration.
25:31And I propose to him a meeting person-to-person in March – let's see what will be the date
25:37– so that we can put things on the table, the issues on the table, and reach the agreement
25:43that we have to make.
25:44At any level, there's nothing forbidding issue to discuss with President Trump on trade matters.
25:52What I cannot put in discussion is my sovereignty and the democracy in Brazil.
25:56This is something that belongs to me and my people.
26:00But from the trade viewpoint, I'm willing to negotiate with the U.S. as I'm going to
26:07negotiate tomorrow with Prime Minister Modi.
26:10I came here to discuss with Prime Minister Modi what is good for Brazil and for India in our
26:16relation.
26:17What can Brazil can buy from India and sell to India?
26:21What can our business sector can build partnerships?
26:26Because this is what's important for the people.
26:29What will the people gain with all this, with these things?
26:34It's not just coming from the U.S.
26:37Can not only the U.S. win to be the winner only alone?
26:41What we want, and that's why we advocate multilateralism.
26:47MS.
26:47Mr. President, one sense is certainly that there is some kind of weaponization of tariffs
26:53by the U.S. president.
26:55You said that you had great equations with former President Bush.
27:01Is it difficult to negotiate with Donald Trump?
27:08I haven't started a negotiation with him yet.
27:12We had two phone calls, conversations, and we have a person-to-person conversation in Malaysia.
27:20Now, I want to go to the U.S. because since he started in Venezuela saying that he wanted
27:31to fight organized crime, drug trafficking very well, I also want to fight it.
27:40And I sent it to him a relationship of Brazilians that were smuggling gasoline to Brazil.
27:51And this citizen, this criminal, lives in Miami.
27:54And I even took a photograph of the house of this criminal that lives in Miami.
28:00If we're going to fight drug trafficking, send it back to Brazil, these criminals, Brazilian
28:05criminals that are living in the states back to Brazil, so that they could be put on trial
28:09in Brazil.
28:11We have a federal police that is very specialized.
28:15We have an internal tax revenue service that is very well prepared.
28:20And we want to sit down with the DOJ, with the revenue authority, tax revenue authority
28:26in the U.S., and let's fight drug trafficking.
28:29And we're saying, yes, let's do it together.
28:32And so this proposal, I want to take it in written, in writing form, to President Trump
28:40because I'm afraid that the wind can blow the words.
28:44So I'm going to take it in writing.
28:46Everything that I'm going to talk with President Trump, I'll take it in writing.
28:50I'm optimistic with this conversation with President Trump.
28:53President, sir, the fact that when we interviewed President Putin, he said that President Trump is
28:58very different when he's in his private space and talking to a leader and very different
29:03when he is talking to the world.
29:08What's your experience?
29:14President Trump, President Trump, President Trump, President Trump, President Trump, President
29:15I had already the opportunity to watch Trump as an expert in marketing.
29:26He is an expert of the digital and social media.
29:32It's very clear that he does this like a TV show, and in the personal meeting, he's much more calm
29:44and shows great tranquility.
29:48So I want to benefit from this personal moment, this person-to-person, the tranquility that
29:55two heads of state should have when they're together.
29:58I'm 80 years old, and he's going to be 80 now, next June.
30:04So two men of 80 years of age do not need to fight.
30:10We don't have to put up a showcase.
30:14We have to deal seriously that the age that we have imposes on us.
30:18And to reach an agreement that could be a show as a role model to the world.
30:24We are the two largest democracies of that part of the world.
30:29And so we have to give an example at all levels.
30:35The only thing that I know is that I don't want war.
30:38My theory is the theory of Mahatma Gandhi that managed to win and achieve independence of
30:50this giant called India through the example, showing an example, motivating the people that
31:01India would have to be free.
31:04This is the example, the role model of my life is Gandhi.
31:08This is the example of things that have to happen.
31:16Brazil has no vocation to go to war.
31:23We have already many domestic issues.
31:25When I took office in 2003, President Bush invited me to participate in the war on Iraq.
31:37And I told President Bush that I never met Saddam Hussein.
31:43Iraq was located 14,000 kilometers away from Brazil and that my war was against hunger.
31:51We had 54 million Brazilians in hunger in Brazil.
31:56We ended with the hunger in Brazil.
31:59I stayed 15 years out of power.
32:01When I came back now, we had again 34 million people in hunger in Brazil.
32:07Again, in two and a half years of my third term now, we ended with the hunger again in Brazil.
32:14This is my war that I want to wage against inequality, inequality of race, of economic inequality, gender inequality.
32:23And now, another fight I picked up now, another fight that I'm going to pick up, that is to fight
32:30against murders of women, female murders, and violence against women.
32:37I'm going to fight against that.
32:39And I've been saying that the priest has to start at mass talking about that there should be no violence
32:49against women.
32:51The pastor in his church has to start the service talking about against violence.
32:56The trade union leader will go to the plant gate, demand more wages.
33:01He also has to talk about the violence against women because we, the men, are the ones that practice violence
33:07against women.
33:09And the women will not be made to be beaten by men and not can be treated as an object.
33:18Women in the 21st century, they demand respect.
33:23They want equality.
33:24They want to participate in the political life of the country, and they're not inferior to, vis-a-vis to
33:31anyone else.
33:32So, this is my fight against inequality, any kind of inequality.
33:40Mr. President, we will talk about your legacy in just a bit during the course of this interview.
33:46You have invoked Mahatma Gandhi.
33:49He's the father of our nation, and you've also said that there's need for mutual respect.
33:54Do you get the sense that, given the uncertain times that we are living in, a lot of announcements
34:01are coming on social media?
34:03Truth social, to be specific, in case of President Trump.
34:11Well, I believe that what we call social media is something that has not much social that we see.
34:23In the digital networks, there's a negative side on the digital networks that are people with bad faith, that not
34:32good will, that use that media.
34:34And the lies prevail.
34:36Evil stuff prevail.
34:39And that's why we defend the regulation, the platforms.
34:44And the platform, when they publicize something of violence against any person, it has to be punished and put on
34:53trial by regulatory framework.
34:56Otherwise, we won't manage to deal with the problem.
34:59We now, in Brazil, have forbidden mobile phones in the schools for the kids.
35:05It was an extraordinary gain for education.
35:09The children now started to talk with each other.
35:13They started to play again.
35:15The school played soccer again in the school because it's meaningless for a classroom to have children using mobile phones.
35:25Neither the teacher will manage to teach.
35:27Neither the student will manage to learn.
35:29So we have this strong decision that was made in Brazil that we want that democracy should be exercised in
35:39the real world and also in the digital world.
35:44So that's why we advocate for regulating the social media.
35:49So would you want, perhaps, President Trump to speak to leaders in person and if the talks are ongoing, no
35:58announcement should be made on Truth Social?
36:07Well, I believe that the behavior of two heads of state – I would never communicate an action on my
36:18side with India through a Twitter.
36:24I would call Prime Minister Modi first.
36:28I would talk with Prime Minister Modi first before making any announcement or statement.
36:34That's the most civilized way for you to build harmony.
36:42It's the most civilized way.
36:44You can't be caught by surprise with unexpected news because someone made a decision against your country.
36:52What the correct is, is to set up a meeting and for you – send your foreign affairs ministers to
36:59talk first because the world is very nervous.
37:03And there's an absence of leadership in many parts of the world.
37:09We lack leaders.
37:11We see that we should guarantee the democratic process and their – these institutions are being discredited because they don't
37:19guarantee – the UN is being discredited.
37:21For more than 20 years that Brazil created the G4, we defended that Brazil, India, Germany, and Japan should be
37:33permanent members of the UN Security Council.
37:36Now, never – no one made any move for other countries to participate.
37:46So the UN now is weakened.
37:49And even the permanent members of the UN Security Council – Trump, Xi Jinping, Putin, Macron, and the UK –
37:58they don't talk between themselves, amongst themselves.
38:04There was no heads of state meeting to end with a war in Russia and Ukraine.
38:12You discuss at the ambassador level at the Security Council.
38:17And so it would be necessary that the UN should be strengthened again so that the UN could coordinate any
38:26kind of conflict existing around the world.
38:29President, sir, we'll come to the UN reforms.
38:32It's very important.
38:33You've picked up a very important subject.
38:35But before that, I'd just like to go back and say that the relationship between Brazil and U.S.
38:41saw problems in the beginning between you and President Trump was because of your better noire, Bolsonaro,
38:46Yair Bolsonaro, the trial, and him being put behind bars.
38:51Is that something that will be a problem when you meet President Trump?
38:56Again?
39:00We're not older.
39:06You know what I think?
39:08That I can't manage to avoid the years that have been passing.
39:15There's no way to avoid that, bypass that, pass that.
39:18But I don't want to get old.
39:20I'm not aging.
39:22Because it only gets aging those that have no cause to fight for.
39:28Those that have a cause to fight for will never age.
39:32I wake up every day in the morning with the same willingness to fight as I had when I woke
39:39up at 30 years of age.
39:41Every day.
39:43Because I have a cause for my life that I have to fight for.
39:47I want to prove that it's not normal the world spend $2 trillion and $400 billion in weapons, in arms.
39:58And they could spend only 10% of what they spend manufacturing weapons to end the hunger in the world.
40:04I want to prove that it's not normal an increase of violence against women and children.
40:12I also want to prove that it's not normal stimuli of violence to children in the digital network and the
40:22social media.
40:22Every day I wake up motivated to fight against all these issues.
40:27So I'm not aging.
40:29Every day I wake up with the same motivation, the same trend.
40:33And this is what I want to talk with President Trump.
40:38A country of the size of the U.S. from the military technological viewpoint cannot threaten everybody every day.
40:50It has to have the peace because the world is in need of peace.
40:57And the world needs tranquility and peace.
41:01We have millions and millions of human beings that still don't have electricity.
41:06And we're talking about wars?
41:09No, I want peace.
41:12I want that India's economy grow and it's possible to make the Brazilian economy grow.
41:20And we can only grow if we have peace.
41:22Peace to study, peace to raise your family, peace to create jobs, and peace to build new agreements.
41:30But how will you navigate the Bolsonaro question with President Trump?
41:40The issue with Bolsonaro is resolved.
41:43He was convicted for 27 years and three months in jail.
41:48And he's going to be blocked in prison for a while, for a good time period.
41:54Because besides trying a coup d'etat, he also had planned to murder me, to murder my Vice President and
42:05the Chief Justice of the Electoral Supreme Court.
42:10This is all documented.
42:12There's evidence of this, this murder attempt.
42:17Brazil has a constitution and a Supreme Court.
42:24And the Supreme Court has abide to the constitution.
42:30And if he was convicted on evidence, and that's how these people were convicted.
42:35The due process was followed and there was proof against them.
42:38I'm not in concern what is Trump's relationship with Bolsonaro.
42:43I am concerned to know how can we establish the relationship, democratic relationship, in a respectful way between Brazil and
42:54the U.S.
42:55that already exists for more than 200 years.
42:59This is what I want.
43:00And that's what I'm fighting for.
43:02Okay.
43:03We're being told that we're running out of time, Maria.
43:05Yes.
43:06So, our last few questions.
43:07Yes.
43:08Mr. President, you have said firmly that Amazon is not for sale.
43:13But critics often argue that enforcement remains weak and deforestation persists.
43:25Well, I'm going to invite you two to visit the Amazon region, Tropical Forest.
43:32First of all, when I organized the COP30 meeting in the Amazon, I wanted that the world to get to
43:41know the Amazon.
43:42That's why I was held there.
43:44Because there's a lot of people that talk about the Amazon, but they know nothing about the Amazon, never been
43:48there.
43:49So, it's important to know that the Amazon region, 30 million people live there.
43:54These 30 million people want to live, that want to work, that want to have access to consumer goods that
44:02the people in the cities enjoy.
44:04People don't want to be locked in the tropical forest.
44:07That's one point that we have to take care of.
44:10The other issue that we have to take care of is that only in three years of my new term,
44:15we're diminishing more than 50 percent deforestation in the Amazon.
44:20And now we're proving that keeping the trees standing is worth more than when you cut down a tree.
44:28We're proving that now.
44:30So, that's why we created the Tropical Forest Fund forever, that it's a new way to finance, a way to
44:40preserve the Amazon tropical forest.
44:42It's not donation of money, it's an investment fund.
44:46It's an investment fund.
44:48And I think this will manage for us to take care of our problems of deforestation.
44:55We have six biomes in Brazil, and we want to preserve all these six biomes.
45:01And this is a titanic struggle.
45:04This is a titanic struggle because there are people that want to preserve and other people that want to end
45:10with the forest.
45:11The people that have the awareness because they are scientists and they study the issue and prove that there's being
45:19a climate change frost very strong in the world.
45:22And others that don't believe in climate change.
45:26Some that did not follow the Kyoto Protocol.
45:29Others that did not want to fulfill the Paris Agreement.
45:32And so, instead of fighting with the others, I'm going to do my share of the work.
45:37So, I committed myself to have zero deforestation in the Amazon until 2030.
45:44Okay.
45:45Right.
45:46But before we close, just the fact that you said climate change, there can be no fight without the international
45:54community coming together.
45:55And here's where I want to ask you about the United Nations reforms, strengthening them.
46:02Russia-Ukraine war, the world was divided.
46:05Nobody understood.
46:06India was penalized by the United States of America.
46:10And now we're looking at the Gaza war.
46:13Nothing.
46:14Children have been killed.
46:15Nothing from the international community.
46:18Where do you stand?
46:25That's why, Gita, that we are working to change the UN Charter and to make it more representative.
46:38The UN from 2026 cannot follow the same standard that it followed when it was created in 1945.
46:47What is the explanation for you not have three or four African countries or India or Brazil or Mexico in
46:56the UN Security Council as permanent members?
46:59And you don't have Egypt and you don't have Germany.
47:01You don't have Japan.
47:02You don't have Indonesia in that council.
47:04So, you have to put in more people to give more representation so that we can avoid in this way
47:11to avoid what happened in Gaza.
47:14That what's going on now in dozens of countries in the African continent, coup d'etat, wars in the African
47:22continent.
47:23So, it's necessary that the UN should be more representative.
47:28And today, it is not.
47:30Today, the UN is not more representative.
47:34So, we want to change the UN.
47:36But instead of criticizing the UN, as Trump says, there's only bureaucrats in the UN.
47:42It's true what he says.
47:44And how can we solve the UN issue?
47:47Changing the way it functions.
47:50And who goes to war?
47:53Other countries that are members of the UN Security Council.
47:57The U.S. invaded Iraq.
48:01France and England invaded Libya.
48:06The United States threatens everybody every day.
48:12And they're all members of the UN – permanent members of the UN Security Council.
48:17Russia invaded Ukraine and is also a permanent member of the UN Security Council.
48:22So, if the head of the family does not respect the family that he raised, who's going to respect it?
48:35So, we have to do with great force – Prime Minister Modi, myself, and all the others – that want
48:43changes at the UN so that the UN could be reformed and that should get a better representation.
48:52Not to allow that Trump will invade Venezuela and not to allow that Israel invade the Gaza Strip and that
49:00Russia invades Ukraine.
49:01If the UN was strong, it could have avoided all these conflicts.
49:06But it's not strong anymore.
49:08So, I believe that we are experiencing very delicate times in the world.
49:16And above all, with the lack.
49:20Okay.
49:20Mr. President.
49:21One last question.
49:22Last question.
49:23Now, since you spoke about your age twice during the course of this interview, you are 80.
49:29You say that you have purpose of a 30-year-old.
49:32What's your purpose?
49:33And what, according to you, is your legacy?
49:40My purpose is the first.
49:42First of all is, what time did you wake up today in the morning?
49:46I woke up at 5.30.
49:50And what did you do at 5.30 in the morning?
49:52Because I'm fasting, I read namaz.
49:58I woke up also 5.30 in the morning.
50:01I walked 6,000, 6 kilometers.
50:05Wow.
50:06In Delhi?
50:08And I do this every day.
50:10Outside?
50:15In the fitness, at the hotel, there's a fitness center.
50:21And I also walk in Brazil every day, 5.30 in the morning.
50:25I wake up to work out one hour of gymnastics and one hour of muscle building.
50:33Because I don't want to age.
50:37I want to be strong.
50:40I have a pact with God that I'll live to 120 years.
50:46Wow.
50:47And I heard the news in the newspaper that a man, the man that is going to live up to
50:54120 years of age has been already born.
50:58Maybe I'm that man.
51:00Who knows?
51:01Why can't it be me?
51:02Maybe you are.
51:03Maybe you are.
51:04It is lovely to have you on our network, President Sir.
51:08There are so many other questions we would love to ask you, but we know you're running
51:12out of time.
51:13You have important meetings ahead of you.
51:15But it was indeed a pleasure to know somebody, a president, who has spoken to us exclusively
51:21today, speaking about a lot of fight that's left in him.
51:25He's just 30 or going on 40.
51:29And he has also spoken about a lot of issues, which includes the fact that he's not going
51:35to compromise on Brazil's sovereignty.
51:39Thank you so much, President Sir, for joining us here.
51:41Thank you for this conversation.
51:44Well, Maida and Gita, thank you very much.
51:49I want to say to you that I have high hopes that Brazil and India transform themselves in
52:02superpowers, economic superpowers in the world.
52:06And we're working for that, towards that direction.
52:09I have an extraordinary relationship with Prime Minister Modi.
52:12And I want all the best for India, and he also wants all the best for Brazil.
52:20And if we continue to work with seriousness, I believe that we'll change for the better the
52:28history of India and the history of Brazil.
52:30So thank you very much for this interview.
52:33Thank you so much.
52:35Thank you so much.
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