- 2 months ago
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00:00Chris Slavis and Maciek Szabowski, thank you so much for joining us to talk about The Girl Who Cried Pearls.
00:06There is so much to get into with this animated short.
00:11But I kind of wondered before we get into the exact story of this one,
00:15could you just talk briefly about whether there was anything from your past,
00:19obviously very accomplished work in stop motion animation?
00:22Was there something you kind of particularly wanted to do on this one going into it
00:26or something you kind of learned before that you wanted to try and explore in a different technique or a
00:31different way here?
00:33The challenge, let's say, on this one was to do something we've never done before.
00:37We usually try to do it. I think as silly as it may sound,
00:41we feel most comfortable when we are working on something which we don't yet know how to do.
00:48This one was, so far everything we've done, or so much of what we've done,
00:54has been a kind of surrealist form, dream logic almost.
01:00But this was the first time we attempted to write a proper script,
01:05make a film with actual structure and tell a story from beginning to end.
01:11So what was the first seed of story inspiration that came to you for this?
01:15We've talked about this now to a point where I don't even know if I believe myself anymore,
01:21but I think there was a moment where we had this image in our head of a girl lying on
01:31a bench,
01:32crying pearls every single night,
01:35and this boy living across from her,
01:39staring at her through this little hole in the wall.
01:44And there were a lot of variations of that idea.
01:47You know, there was an idea of some point like,
01:49oh, does he collect the,
01:50we had an idea that he collects the pearls every day with a little coffee can.
01:54Like he was collecting sap from a maple tree, for example.
01:58Yeah.
01:58And that over four years,
02:00he eventually makes enough money to leave and make his fortune elsewhere.
02:07And there were all these little variations that didn't quite work.
02:10And there was,
02:12they weren't emotionally satisfying.
02:14They weren't story satisfying.
02:15So we actually put it aside for over a decade.
02:19Sometimes you have an impulse for a story without a resolution.
02:23That doesn't necessarily mean that the impulse is invalid.
02:28It's just that sometimes it needs to sit on a shelf and wait until other ideas you place next to
02:34it become sympathetic
02:35and start having a conversation with each other.
02:37This actually is what happened.
02:39It's just that it took 15 years or so.
02:41Yeah.
02:42And we did other things.
02:43I mean,
02:43we didn't,
02:43we kept that process of,
02:45you know,
02:46what we talked about,
02:46like the challenge of this,
02:48we've dedicated our lives to puppets and puppets and cinema.
02:51And so we went in other venues.
02:53We tried other things.
02:55We tried virtual reality.
02:56We did stereoscopic.
02:58We did full scale puppets.
02:59We did live action,
03:01live action puppetry with marionettes.
03:03And with this film,
03:06once the,
03:06we,
03:06we had this idea to get back to maybe more of a traditional stop motion film.
03:11And part of that tradition was to challenge ourselves to make a,
03:15a real story.
03:17So we got,
03:17we took all those things that didn't work.
03:19And then there was a Eureka moment where we figured out the structure and,
03:22and we were off to the races for the next five years.
03:27Yeah.
03:28Having said that though,
03:29we did not set out to make a stop motion film.
03:32That's not exactly how that works.
03:34Even though,
03:35even though that's some,
03:37a skill that we,
03:39I guess,
03:39have or a medium that we work in this,
03:44it's very important to us whenever we begin a project to listen to the
03:48story itself.
03:49you don't start making a puppet film.
03:52You start writing a story.
03:53And then in some,
03:55some form of magic,
03:56the,
03:56the characters come alive in,
03:59in your imagination.
03:59They,
04:00they gain some kind of agency and they start speaking for themselves.
04:05And what the story dictated as form was actually a stop motion animation
04:13because it relied completely on,
04:18on a,
04:18on a,
04:19on a twist of making you believe in something fantastical and completely
04:24impossible.
04:25And the medium of stop motion animation is kind of perfectly suited for that.
04:30You,
04:30you tend to believe what's what you see on the screen because it actually
04:34exists.
04:35There are objects on the screen.
04:37They do catch sunlight and cast shadow.
04:40They exist in three-dimensional form.
04:43And therefore when you're,
04:45when you witness something happening,
04:47you don't,
04:47you don't doubt it.
04:48You don't think that this was confabulated in any way,
04:52or that you're being tricked.
04:54You,
04:54you buy it.
04:56And so it actually was a kind of the,
04:57the perfect form for this.
04:59I love that.
05:00There's so much to unpack in that already,
05:02but I love from the off that you were like,
05:04this is a great story,
05:05but hang on a minute.
05:07It's the puppets again.
05:08The puppets are speaking to us.
05:09It has to be told in this medium.
05:12Yeah.
05:13Well,
05:13they do.
05:14Yeah.
05:14I mean,
05:14yes.
05:15Well,
05:16puppets are like any actor.
05:17Do you know,
05:18you treat them with respect and,
05:19and love and they'll will,
05:21and they'll start collaborating.
05:22For sure.
05:23But also the light,
05:24I think is so fascinating in,
05:27in this and,
05:28you know,
05:28across all of your work,
05:29of course,
05:29but particularly the sort of moments of,
05:32where the light's coming from.
05:33And,
05:34you know,
05:34I'm assuming you're not making things easy for yourselves by opening curtains and,
05:38you know,
05:39changing the time of day multiple times throughout this as well.
05:45We did.
05:46No,
05:46I think if you were to describe our process,
05:48I would not describe it as making things easy for yourself.
05:52I'd say there is no part of the process,
05:55which is like that.
05:56I mean,
05:57you literally come into the studio when you close all the curtains air so that not a
06:01sliver of light can get in.
06:02That could ruin everything.
06:04You work in a kind of cathedral like silence and complete darkness for years.
06:09That's partially why we're so happy to be going,
06:13going someplace sunny for once.
06:16Yeah.
06:16Lighting a set is really one of the,
06:20I'd say enjoyable parts of the process for us.
06:23Like anything else,
06:24it gets frustrating,
06:25but having a dark set,
06:28of course,
06:29there's no natural light.
06:31There's nothing.
06:31It's all studio,
06:32of course.
06:33So setting up that one light and the fill light,
06:36and then setting up little mirrors and spots,
06:42talking about it,
06:44debating it.
06:45I mean,
06:46we,
06:46we can light a set,
06:47you know,
06:47the animation of a set could take sometimes two weeks.
06:50I mean,
06:50a shot,
06:51not a set,
06:52a shot can take two weeks.
06:53So if we give a set two,
06:55three days,
06:55that's,
06:56that's a pretty good indulgence.
06:58And it's really just like painting.
07:00We'll,
07:01we'll really do every little detail.
07:05And it's kind of the,
07:06it's,
07:07it's the most meditative part of the process.
07:10You,
07:10you just,
07:11and you'd go from one to the next and you talk about the time of day,
07:14but then of course there's a,
07:15it's stop motion and puppets.
07:17So there's a poetic realism to the time of day.
07:19Even we don't get too hung up on that.
07:22The ceilings in our studio are incredibly low.
07:26Which is one of the most annoying parts about this making this film.
07:29So it's often golden hour because you couldn't put the lights that high.
07:34I realize we've obviously kind of jumped quite into the,
07:37the technique of all of this,
07:39but could you just lay out how much you want to explain about the story and,
07:42and the themes that you wanted to get across with this?
07:46I think one of the central themes in it,
07:48at least how people,
07:50what people derive from it is it has to do with the,
07:53with a debate about value and what is it and where does it come from?
07:59To us,
08:00that was when we finally did resolve the,
08:03the ending of the story or what it was,
08:06or what those images were,
08:10were conveying when,
08:13when put together was that value is,
08:18debatable that it's,
08:19that it's something mysterious and it depends entirely on the story you create
08:25around it,
08:26the mythology that you wrap the object in for it to seem like it,
08:32like it's,
08:32like it has richness,
08:34like it has something of,
08:36of importance to it.
08:38Otherwise,
08:39I mean,
08:39otherwise it could be,
08:40you know,
08:42it could be an earring from a dollar store or it could be,
08:45you know,
08:46the earring of David Bowie from the last night of the Ziggy Stardust tour.
08:51You wonder if,
08:52if it's,
08:53if it has a story behind it,
08:55it,
08:55it starts,
08:57it comes alive in the public imagination and therefore it's covetable.
09:00Yeah.
09:01And faith is involved in that too.
09:03You know,
09:03the,
09:03the knuckle of a saint is priceless.
09:09So the knuckle of Joe Blow,
09:12who died anonymously is worthless.
09:16And so,
09:17and,
09:17and what's the difference between those knuckles?
09:20It's,
09:20it's the,
09:21it's the story of the life lived.
09:23It's the faith of the,
09:26of the people who are worshiping that object and how much,
09:33how much that affects our,
09:37how much objects actually affect our sense of,
09:39of faith and value.
09:41We thought was really an interesting idea to explore.
09:45Yeah.
09:45And does you say that kind of that interaction between viewer and the
09:49audience in this,
09:50as well as the,
09:51the narration and the way that you're kind of,
09:53of telling that story too,
09:54because yeah,
09:56it's like the,
09:57the knuckle of a saint obviously is priceless,
10:00but only if you believe in the saint,
10:02right?
10:03That's right.
10:04Yes,
10:04exactly.
10:05No,
10:05precisely.
10:06And that's,
10:06that's also fascinating.
10:08But for someone else,
10:10it might be,
10:10you know,
10:11there was a,
10:12there was a great trade in the bones of saints in,
10:16you know,
10:17in the 17th and 18th century,
10:19which means there are people making money off of that face.
10:23And so that intersection is a lot of what the movie is about actually,
10:30you know?
10:30And so it opens up a premise for a con.
10:34Yeah.
10:35Yeah.
10:36And,
10:36and a question about what do you value?
10:39What do you,
10:41and yeah,
10:42I think,
10:43and for us,
10:44the idea of stop motion as a medium and a fable as a,
10:49let's say structure was the perfect way to tell that kind of story.
10:53Stop motion is after all a lie.
10:55You are,
10:56it's a,
10:57it's a sorcerer's trick almost to make you believe that dead objects are,
11:01are moving in front of you.
11:03They're alive.
11:04And not only that,
11:06but you try to build them in a way where you,
11:09you try to take that light of the next level where people are not watching a
11:14puppet film as much as characters.
11:16This is,
11:17if you,
11:17if this discussion was about a movie where puppets do things,
11:21we would have completely failed.
11:22Just to talk about those kind of opening moments of any film,
11:26which are of course vital.
11:27There was so much detail in your set design and,
11:32you know,
11:32the first character that we see that can,
11:35I'm,
11:35I'm,
11:36I'm wary of spoilers,
11:36but because I've been talking about,
11:38you know,
11:38what you're and seeing into certain scenes or not,
11:41whether you believe them,
11:42so it was an unreliable narrator from the off.
11:45What did you want to say in those opening moments with what we kind of feast
11:49our eyes on?
11:51Well,
11:52I think we're just,
11:53we're,
11:54our ambition is to draw you into a universe,
11:58which you,
11:58which you believe in,
12:00where you don't think that you're looking at miniatures,
12:02where you don't think you're looking at,
12:04you know,
12:05things with foam heads,
12:06but that you're looking in through their eyes into a kind of soul and that
12:11the world around them is,
12:12has a consequence to it.
12:14Yeah.
12:14And I think,
12:15you know,
12:15we're trying to,
12:15we're showing this very rich old man and his office.
12:20And every detail in that office is supposed to emphasize his,
12:26his wealth,
12:28his power,
12:29this life he's led,
12:30and then set up this little mystery of,
12:34of a little stolen object that the most valuable thing in this room actually
12:38fits in the palm of your hand.
12:40It's,
12:40it's an interesting question because actually,
12:42as we're speaking,
12:43one of the things we're working on as a,
12:47as a idea that our composer had,
12:50what he wanted to are the,
12:52the person who made our soundtrack local musician named Patrick Watson
12:59decided that it would be fun to make a radio play of this,
13:03that he could maybe press on vinyl and sell on tour.
13:07So we actually kind of thought,
13:08well,
13:09that's something we've never done.
13:10And so again,
13:10a great chance for failure.
13:13So we of course jumped on it,
13:16but you know,
13:18the trying to wrap our heads around the,
13:20this new medium for us had to do with absorbing the wise lesson that in
13:29film you,
13:30you show,
13:31don't tell as a,
13:32as a rule,
13:33but in a radio play,
13:34there's nothing to show.
13:35So you have to tell,
13:36tell,
13:36tell,
13:37as they say.
13:38So our,
13:39what we're actually presently kind of dealing with as in our,
13:42in our whatever spare moments we have in trying to write this radio play is how
13:46do you replace the visuals?
13:48And that makes you intensely aware of how much information you have to replace.
13:55Meaning how much a visual actually says in,
13:59in the concept of world building.
14:01Yeah.
14:02Because as you say that,
14:02you know,
14:03we see in those opening moments,
14:07it's inside,
14:08nestled inside an apple,
14:09which means a lot.
14:11Yeah.
14:12Yeah,
14:13exactly.
14:13well,
14:14you throw it,
14:14you throw enough symbols at people and they'll start writing their own story because symbols
14:20have stored,
14:21symbols have pre-attached meaning.
14:24That's it.
14:25That's,
14:25I mean,
14:25that's,
14:26that's the departure on this project compared to before.
14:29We were,
14:30everything we used to do was layer symbiotics,
14:34one on top of another,
14:36hoping to some,
14:37that through some curation we were responsible guides and that it doesn't become complete
14:45confusion,
14:46but still open-ended,
14:48but that we're,
14:48that we do manage to take you responsibly from,
14:52from here to here.
14:55In this one,
14:56I'm afraid our,
14:57our,
14:57our habits still existed a little bit,
15:01even though we were trying to be formal,
15:02but yeah,
15:03once you start and you,
15:05but you,
15:05you do discover that once you start swimming in the,
15:07the waters of symbolism,
15:09you're bound to trigger ideas that you can't fully control,
15:15especially in combinations.
15:19Looking at the rinjo play that you'll,
15:22it's about how you're only assuming it's going to be a mistake in terms of you're going to learn so
15:26much along the way,
15:27but,
15:28you know,
15:28you learn so much that kind of almost came about as a happy accident.
15:32I guess you can look,
15:33back on it in hindsight with this.
15:35Could you talk about a couple of those moments?
15:37So I'm thinking about the weathering literally of your main thing that we have and also the size of the
15:45characters' heads.
15:46Well,
15:47yes,
15:47well,
15:48that was,
15:48that came about with COVID,
15:49of course,
15:50where we,
15:51we weren't able to work in the same room for the first,
15:57let's say,
15:57four or five months of production.
15:59And the government decided that we are a non-essential service,
16:04which is correct.
16:06So we were actually legally not allowed to be at the studio together.
16:11So,
16:11yeah,
16:11I,
16:12I worked on sculpting the heads first sort of first draft magic worked on the bodies and we came together
16:18after a couple months in an alleyway.
16:21I think I had the first head ready,
16:23which took weeks.
16:24Magic had the first body ready,
16:25which took weeks.
16:27And we stood close enough together to see how it looked.
16:30And,
16:30uh,
16:31the scale was ridiculous.
16:33Uh,
16:34I don't know.
16:34And we,
16:34we got our three to one or 3.5 to one wrong.
16:38Uh,
16:39and the heads were looked huge.
16:41And neither of us could really gather the courage to tell the other to start over.
16:46So,
16:47uh,
16:47we decided that we're stuck and that we're going to just going to have to live with it and make
16:51a film with really big heads.
16:53No one cares or noticed.
16:54Honestly,
16:55the story of the big heads is more of a thing than anyone noticing the big heads.
17:00No one's asked.
17:02No one.
17:02We've never told that story because someone said,
17:04why are the heads so big?
17:08Yeah.
17:09I mean,
17:09you have a question,
17:09don't you?
17:10Believe what's in front of you is there for a rules.
17:12And I trust in your filmmaking process.
17:16No,
17:16that,
17:16well,
17:17that's,
17:17that can be a mistake.
17:18That's a mistake that we,
17:19we,
17:19we work off of.
17:20Yes.
17:21Quite a lot.
17:21Sometimes you have to work with the accidents.
17:23That's okay.
17:24Actually,
17:24I think throughout our history,
17:26we've become totally okay with,
17:29uh,
17:30the concept we call,
17:31or that's,
17:32this is something we learned from John Cage doing music.
17:35The idea of,
17:36uh,
17:36of indeterminacy where you,
17:39you create such conditions that conditions loose enough that you're okay.
17:44Not having control of everything that you let some of the elements do their own,
17:48take their own adventure.
17:50Uh,
17:51hoping that trusting in the idea that they are your,
17:55uh,
17:55your collaborators after all,
17:57and this is their voice.
17:58And we call it the secret collaborator.
18:01I also love that the,
18:02with this,
18:03you know,
18:04the difference in scale between the heads and the bodies,
18:06it was almost out of politeness that you didn't want to offend.
18:09Maybe one of each other.
18:12There comes a moment when you can,
18:14when you're working together every day,
18:16you can make a change on the day.
18:19You can say,
18:19Hey,
18:19I'm not sure that head is a,
18:21that head might be a little big.
18:23Um,
18:24and it's not too late.
18:26If someone hasn't worked,
18:27you know,
18:27on the nostrils yet,
18:29there comes a moment when it's just,
18:31it's like,
18:31it is too late.
18:32And that's just the way it is.
18:33You know,
18:34that,
18:34and that's one of the reasons we do collaborate and not take months to see each other's work is to
18:40avoid just that kind of problem.
18:41Although in retrospect,
18:43maybe that it's an interesting experiment for a movie,
18:45but you know,
18:46it's also a celebration of the process.
18:48It's okay.
18:49That,
18:49that,
18:50you know,
18:50we had,
18:51uh,
18:51another,
18:52another fun thing that happened is that we were working on a set at some point,
18:55which we had built and painted.
18:57And then it was,
18:59um,
18:59it was wet and we,
19:00we decided to put it outside to dry in the sunlight,
19:03hoping that,
19:04you know,
19:05it will take about an hour or so.
19:07So we went off to the corner for a beer.
19:09And while we were at the bar,
19:10it's,
19:10it,
19:11there was a downpour,
19:13massive,
19:13massive rain.
19:15And we,
19:15we realized like,
19:16oh no,
19:17the sets outside,
19:17it's going to be ruined,
19:18but there was nothing we could do.
19:20We couldn't come home because it was just ridiculous outside.
19:23Uh,
19:23and by the time we did get home,
19:25the,
19:26the,
19:27the,
19:27the set had dilapidated.
19:29It had half collapsed.
19:30And that was another one of those moments where like,
19:32huh,
19:33you know,
19:33like there's a,
19:35that's not what we wanted,
19:36but like critically look at it.
19:39That's actually better.
19:40And at that point,
19:41you kind of realized that,
19:42that the,
19:43you know,
19:43at that moment,
19:44the rain was your secret collaborator.
19:47And now,
19:48um,
19:49how quickly are you able to make those transitions?
19:51Because I'm thinking for,
19:53you know,
19:53other creative people listening and watching this,
19:56there might be,
19:57do you have that initial moment of,
19:59oh,
19:59this is just ruined.
20:00I feel awful.
20:01I'm angry at myself.
20:02I'm angry at the process.
20:03And then how quickly do you have to wallow in that before we'll snap out and go,
20:06you know what?
20:07It's the magic.
20:08You know,
20:08for every time that the mistake,
20:12um,
20:13leads to something great,
20:15there are nine times that it leads to re redoing the thing,
20:20you know,
20:20because it's just not good enough.
20:22It's not interesting.
20:24Uh,
20:24you do wallow in the mistake you wallow in the process.
20:29Well,
20:29sometimes you create a,
20:30you build yourself these obstructions,
20:32like obstructions that,
20:34that remove you from complete control.
20:37That's actually,
20:38that's,
20:38there's a long artist standing artistic tradition of doing this where you,
20:43you know,
20:43like William Burroughs would shoot pellets at the,
20:46of paint at the,
20:48at a canvas.
20:49Not,
20:49there was no way of to predetermine what that would look like.
20:52Uh,
20:52I remember at some point we read an interview with Frank Gary,
20:55the architect who would throw his model out the window once he thought it was
21:00good enough and then go downstairs,
21:03pick up the pieces and reassemble them.
21:04And knowing that it would never come together properly again.
21:07And that was the,
21:10the magic of the final product actually came from having abandoned complete
21:18mastery of,
21:19of,
21:19of his elements that he actually,
21:21that he was working with something that he couldn't have controlled how it
21:24broke.
21:25And I think our process is not loose.
21:28It's not improvisational.
21:29So if you don't build in the possibility of that here and there,
21:34the end result is just completely structured and tight.
21:40Yeah.
21:40And some,
21:42and,
21:43uh,
21:44when any work of art just feels overthought and overstructured,
21:49overpainted,
21:51overproduced,
21:51uh,
21:52you can feel that.
21:53And so we try to allow for moments where chaos can seep in a little.
22:00It's also the,
22:01the fun part of the process,
22:02you know,
22:03the actual animation is you,
22:05you does not lend itself to,
22:08to,
22:09to,
22:09to much improvising to,
22:10to instinct.
22:11You actually,
22:12you,
22:12you,
22:12you do have to know where you're going from to where and how long that's
22:15going to take.
22:16And you can't,
22:17you can't go left in the middle.
22:19Um,
22:20so that we actually,
22:21so these,
22:22these moments when,
22:24when things go so wrong,
22:26um,
22:28become the,
22:28the,
22:28the only fun we get to have.
22:31You know,
22:31I'm thinking are there sort of times when you accidentally knock one of
22:36the characters or kind of like move an arm in a slightly different way
22:38that was not intended,
22:40but ends up sort of taking you emotionally in a slightly different way in
22:43scene.
22:44I would say that's the,
22:46the part that's not fun because if you knock the set or knock your
22:49character,
22:51or if the,
22:51if the wire starts getting loose while you're animating,
22:55it's very hard to,
22:57sometimes you,
22:58you just have to improvise that into something that works in the movie or
23:02start over or start over,
23:03but it's not,
23:04that's not fun.
23:05I have to say,
23:06um,
23:07maybe other animators have fun when they get in trouble,
23:09but it's a bit like,
23:11it's a bit like being your work,
23:14you know,
23:14it's like playing a sport and you're down 10,
23:16nothing.
23:16You know,
23:17it's not,
23:17maybe you'll tie or win,
23:19but that,
23:20and that feels great,
23:21but it's not fun being down 10,
23:23nothing like,
23:25and that's,
23:25and that's,
23:26yeah.
23:26So yeah,
23:28it's a funny,
23:29it is really an interesting balance between knowing when to enjoy it and
23:33embrace it and knowing when to start over.
23:36And in terms of that process,
23:38I know you were saying,
23:38so was it about five years in the making this one?
23:42Oh yeah.
23:43Embarrassingly.
23:44Yes.
23:44Five solid years for 17 minutes,
23:46which again,
23:48we should once again,
23:50thank the national film board of Canada for that trust and patience and
23:54support.
23:55There's nothing on the planet earth,
23:57like the national film board of Canada.
24:00Nobody would have indulged us like this.
24:02And not just us,
24:03but this incredible,
24:04you know,
24:04going back,
24:05you know,
24:06well over 50 years,
24:08uh,
24:08of indulging experiments like this.
24:13How old is that?
24:15Would you say to have that time and where does that time give you in the
24:20end result?
24:22Oh,
24:23it's,
24:23it's everything,
24:23you know,
24:24it allowed us to make a film that of course the producers are involved.
24:29It's not carte blanche.
24:30Um,
24:30and we don't have carte blanche with our budget or our time.
24:34However,
24:35we are allowed,
24:36we indulged every single detail in this film.
24:39There's not a frame that is not exactly the frame we wanted.
24:45And that is to present a film that,
24:48that way where the flaws,
24:50which are there are at least our flaws,
24:53you know,
24:54not,
24:54they're not based on schedule or time.
24:57They're based on our talent and where it's level high or low.
25:02And so,
25:03but,
25:04you know,
25:04deep bow to our producers for allowing,
25:06that we've had experiences when the film was yanked from us because of a
25:10deadline or,
25:11you know,
25:11just because we,
25:12we were too slow.
25:14Um,
25:15and then you,
25:16it hurts,
25:17it hurts forever,
25:18but this,
25:19um,
25:20there's a great pleasure with this one that we,
25:22we managed to complete it exactly like we wanted.
25:26It's if it's not good,
25:27that's because we're not good,
25:28you know,
25:29and that's,
25:29and that's good to know.
25:30It's,
25:31it's a,
25:31it's a moment in,
25:32it's a frozen moment in time showing exactly where we were at artistically.
25:37For five,
25:38for five,
25:39for five years.
25:41Obviously,
25:41I'm,
25:42I'm not asking you to read that for five years,
25:44but I wonder if just briefly,
25:46could you kind of talk through the,
25:47the stages that we go through from beginning to where we see it finally on screen?
25:53Oh,
25:54I think,
25:54you know,
25:55what's interesting about stop motion,
25:57let's say,
25:58unlike a lot of other kinds of animation,
26:02it's in some ways,
26:03it's just a very,
26:04very,
26:04very,
26:05very,
26:05very slow live action process.
26:08So,
26:09you know,
26:10we,
26:10it's like playing guitar solos with,
26:12you know,
26:12one note at a time.
26:14Yeah.
26:14Uh,
26:15so it's,
26:16it's,
26:17it's very similar to a live action process where we,
26:20we write a script,
26:21um,
26:22we get our,
26:24we have our script approved,
26:25uh,
26:26instead of using storyboards,
26:28we work with actors and we create a,
26:31so there's literally a live process.
26:33Yeah.
26:33We do a live action version of the entire film instead of storyboards or animatics.
26:39We create this video version of the film.
26:41Uh,
26:42we edit that for actually months to make sure that the film really works with actors at not just gestures,
26:50but camera and,
26:51and pace and everything but lighting and sets.
26:55And then we really just fill,
26:58we start filling that video move,
27:00that,
27:01that movie in scene by scene by scene.
27:04Uh,
27:04so we always know what's coming.
27:06We know what's up next month.
27:07We know what's up next year.
27:08And it's just the process of filling it,
27:11filling it in.
27:12And then once you fill it in,
27:14you edit it.
27:14And of course,
27:15that's a whole other different process of,
27:16of rewriting.
27:18Just like,
27:18again,
27:19like anyone who's ever made a live action movie,
27:21um,
27:22with the music and sound design.
27:25Uh,
27:26it's,
27:26yeah,
27:27it's,
27:28it's a,
27:28it's a minute.
27:29It's like a,
27:30a dollhouse excruciating version of making a live action film.
27:35And usually it works,
27:36but this time it kind of didn't.
27:39We,
27:39uh,
27:39we made a film that when,
27:42you know,
27:42it's,
27:43it's crazy that this keeps happening.
27:45I don't know what the laws of this is.
27:46I guess this must happen to other directors as well.
27:49But when you first make your assembly,
27:52when you put all the,
27:52when you have all the shots shot and you put them all in the order where you
27:55think they belong,
27:57and then you watch it the first time,
27:59it's always devastating.
28:01That's,
28:02that is no matter how much experience we've gotten it.
28:04The first time you watch it,
28:06just your heart sinks.
28:07Cause you know,
28:08you know,
28:09something's wrong.
28:10You don't exactly know where to,
28:11how to put your finger on it,
28:13but there's a problem with the flow.
28:15It is telling the story,
28:17but in a clumsy way,
28:18like a,
28:18like you're,
28:19you're telling a joke and you,
28:21you cut to the punchline to too late or something.
28:25And this one,
28:26actually the one thing we didn't have in our,
28:29in our actors version of the animatic is in the,
28:32in the live version is wasn't the music.
28:35So when we,
28:37when our composer started working on scoring the film,
28:40he had a,
28:41he,
28:41he actually kind of saved the movie by telling us as a complaint,
28:47really that we're not giving him enough time to,
28:50to,
28:51to fully cook,
28:52to develop the emotional arc that he needs to,
28:56to do with,
28:58with his instruments.
29:00So we actually ended up cutting something like two or three minutes of the film,
29:04which is like chopping out six months of your life with your,
29:10you're very reluctant to do,
29:11but it was our favorite shot.
29:13Our favorite shot was in that.
29:14Of course.
29:15Again,
29:15it was one of those things where you had to cut your favorite shot,
29:18but then it worked,
29:19you know,
29:19it actually,
29:20once,
29:21once we managed to,
29:23to work out a,
29:25a kind of symbiosis with our,
29:27with our composer and give him,
29:29and actually allow him,
29:30give him the timing he needed to,
29:35to,
29:36to,
29:36to fully realize the,
29:37the emotions he was building.
29:41It,
29:41it clicked and,
29:43and yeah,
29:43we're eternally grateful for his dissatisfaction with us on this one.
29:47It's quite still.
29:49Could you talk to me,
29:51to all of us about the,
29:53the visas and the,
29:55the lip syncing literally in this,
29:58because from what I've sort of read a little bit,
30:00I just find it fascinating the choices that you make on how to do that.
30:03And when you see lips move in real time with what we're hearing and what we
30:07don't.
30:09Well,
30:10I guess in terms of the,
30:11that starts with the voice actors we,
30:13we had,
30:14which is Colm Fior for the English version and James Heinemann for the French
30:21version.
30:22And because we wanted to have the French and the English version kind of equal
30:27versions of the movie,
30:29we,
30:29we couldn't do the man out of his life.
30:32So the characters,
30:33the characters who speak,
30:36it had to be a post-production effect.
30:38And that was,
30:39it had to be done twice.
30:40And that was a great challenge to us actually,
30:43because it was very,
30:46very important that it was not an effect.
30:50It's funny.
30:50We're talking about it now,
30:51but it at least it's,
30:53it's always the last thing we're talking about,
30:54which is good.
30:54We didn't want the first comment to be,
30:58how did you do those mouths?
31:01Because if you,
31:03if you didn't think a character was speaking,
31:05but you thought there was an effect happening,
31:08we,
31:08we would have been sunk.
31:09It would have been a complete,
31:11complete failure.
31:11In fact,
31:12all the work we did would have been a failure.
31:14So working with the NFB and ED Films,
31:20which is a local company,
31:21it was a,
31:22it was a real nightmare actually.
31:25But they were up to this challenge and never gave up until it looked
31:29great.
31:29So yeah,
31:32but it was,
31:34it's a difficult thing.
31:35You know,
31:36people have a romance about stop motion and we do too.
31:40And so any deviation from the pure art form actually tends to upset
31:48people,
31:48you know,
31:49because it's a,
31:51because in an age of AI and CG,
31:53people want this to be a,
31:56an outlier,
31:57a romantic medium from the past,
32:01but for us,
32:02it's not,
32:02it's a living,
32:04evolving medium and puppetry on film is for us a living,
32:09evolving medium.
32:10And so in every project,
32:11we're not,
32:12we're not looking for it,
32:13but we're,
32:13we're,
32:15we're not going to let the limitations of a puppet decide our
32:19storytelling.
32:21Yeah.
32:21I guess it's also,
32:22it's also not entirely true.
32:24It's a weird conceit.
32:26It's not really true that the romantic medium is always the work of
32:34Luddites,
32:34the word,
32:35the work of people who are afraid of technology,
32:37but are somehow,
32:38you know,
32:40have to honor traditionalism purely.
32:43We're not purists.
32:45And as,
32:46and,
32:46and I think the more you,
32:47the more you research the,
32:49who you think are purists,
32:50the more you realize that actually,
32:51these are very experimental people.
32:53At some point,
32:54I read a biography of Frederick Chopin,
32:58the pianist.
32:59And,
33:01you know,
33:01one of the,
33:02you would think that,
33:02you know,
33:03with the way I was raised,
33:04you know,
33:04my grandparents telling me that what I listened to is not music.
33:07Chopin is music.
33:08That's a,
33:08you know,
33:09that's how it should be.
33:10That is the traditional form and don't screw around.
33:13But it turns out that,
33:14you know,
33:15that guy was,
33:16he was friends with,
33:17with,
33:18for example,
33:19a piano builder who,
33:21the one who invented the pedals.
33:24And,
33:24and,
33:24and,
33:25you know,
33:25he was visiting a studio at some point and he went like,
33:27what are you up to here?
33:28And it's like,
33:28well,
33:28I'm building these.
33:29I just,
33:29I thought this would be interesting in a piano.
33:31And Chopin was right away like,
33:33Jesus,
33:33could I,
33:33like,
33:34as soon as you got one,
33:35can I have one?
33:35Can I,
33:36can I test fly this?
33:37And I think,
33:38you know,
33:38this is,
33:39this is poignant.
33:40I think,
33:42that's not traditionalism.
33:44That's actually exactly the idea of,
33:46of,
33:46of being open to innovation in a way that you trust that that will only raise your traditional ideas to
33:54the next level.
33:55And you have to want that.
33:57You,
33:57you know,
33:58you can't be,
33:58you can't resist that as,
34:00you know,
34:00at some point we were,
34:02when we started,
34:03we started working on eight millimeter.
34:05There was no,
34:06the digital technology was still far from being convenient.
34:10We didn't have a,
34:11really a computer.
34:13We didn't know Photoshop.
34:14We knew,
34:15we knew that it existed.
34:15People told us Photoshop is great.
34:17We should try it.
34:18But,
34:18you know,
34:20I guess we thought that it was a traditional medium and it,
34:24it wasn't exciting.
34:26It was,
34:27there was something where like,
34:28where we knew we were letting ourselves down by being scared of progress.
34:34And since then,
34:35that's been kind of our,
34:36like since,
34:37you know,
34:37when,
34:37when 3d happened,
34:39when the age of avatar came to us and we got funding for a film that our producer suggested that
34:45we should probably make this in,
34:47in 3d.
34:48And our first instinct was,
34:50well,
34:51why just because it exists that we,
34:53why would,
34:54do we have to move into the present constantly?
34:58Can't we just stay where we're comfortable?
35:01And we kind of said,
35:02listen,
35:03I don't think so,
35:03but let us think about it.
35:04And on our way home from that meeting,
35:06we kind of,
35:07we felt embarrassed of our instincts.
35:11We,
35:11we realized like,
35:12Oh my God,
35:13like,
35:13do we have,
35:13do we have an ideology?
35:15Are we ideologues?
35:17You know,
35:18this is that actually why we got into art?
35:21Is this,
35:21is this why we opened a studio?
35:24We kind of felt like we had to go home and write ourselves an essay as to why we want
35:29it to be artists in the first place.
35:31And so we thought like,
35:32well,
35:32I mean,
35:33there's,
35:33there's only really one thing to do.
35:34We have to do it this way.
35:36And,
35:36you know,
35:36since then we've done VR and all kinds of things,
35:40not because we ever had a natural curiosity about it,
35:44but just because it was,
35:45once it presented itself,
35:46we,
35:47we tried to wrap our heads around how that could work with our mission,
35:55let's say of furthering the language of puppets.
35:58Could that be done?
35:59Could this medium further the language of puppets?
36:01And usually,
36:03yes,
36:03you just have to think long enough.
36:06But was there a moment in,
36:08you know,
36:09the process of making this,
36:10I know we've spoken about various mistakes that happened in the moment that you then learned
36:14from and changed creative direction potentially,
36:17but was there a point or a couple of points you can think of where,
36:21you know,
36:22something spoke to you in a different way.
36:23So whether it was like something to do with the music,
36:25like you were saying,
36:25or like something you saw in the puppetry or in the sets that took you down a different path that
36:31you weren't necessarily thinking you'd be headed?
36:34Well,
36:35early on,
36:35you know,
36:36we're talking about the technology we used for the,
36:39for the speaking characters,
36:40which is CG.
36:42The truth is we only had the budget for three minutes of that technology out of 17.
36:4717.
36:49So the rest of the film,
36:51we had to think of something that actually is probably for us,
36:55at least felt more radical than CG mouths,
36:58which was we decided that for those scenes that were set in the past.
37:05So the grandfather is telling the story and he's narrating of this period in his life,
37:10which is like just before world war one.
37:13And we,
37:14we came up with an idea that we decided if we couldn't have moving mouths,
37:19we thought let's not have anything move.
37:21Let's have the face just be a,
37:23a completely blank mask.
37:29And that we wouldn't.
37:30It worked in Greek theater.
37:31Yeah.
37:31I mean,
37:32even more,
37:32we didn't even,
37:33we even painted the eyes,
37:35meaning like we painted the eyes.
37:37We even painted the highlight on the eyes,
37:38just like you know,
37:41marionettes have and puppets have been for the last,
37:43you know,
37:44million years.
37:47And in a way,
37:48what was interesting about that is that stop motion has had been kind of
37:53heading towards extreme motion and realism in faces and how far can you push
38:01expression?
38:02And we thought it would be interesting to go back to the,
38:06let's say in our medium,
38:08the era of Trinka and these other animators who just had,
38:12just had faces.
38:13And could we let,
38:13could the power of puppetry,
38:15the power of just the animator,
38:18the power of the expressions and the gestures get all the emotion across without
38:24even a blink.
38:26And.
38:26And well,
38:27we were at the same time raising young girls.
38:31And mine was,
38:33my daughter was five when this began and.
38:38Actively using her little dolls to whether Barbies or little stuff,
38:44bears or whatever,
38:45or little mice that she likes to kind of,
38:48I noticed that she's using the dolls in a way that isn't just playful,
38:54but also she's trying,
38:58she's using them as a,
38:59as tools to understand the heavier concepts of life that she's been,
39:04that,
39:04that are around her,
39:05that she's like death,
39:06that she doesn't quite understand.
39:08She's heard about it.
39:10She's aware that something like this exists,
39:11but couldn't quite internalize it.
39:14And so I,
39:15at some point I noticed her that she,
39:16there was a lot of the ways that she was playing with her little mice was that
39:20one would die.
39:22And the other was once would put her to bed,
39:25put her little blanket on her and stroke her forehead and tell her that it's
39:30okay.
39:31You know,
39:32and,
39:32and this is like,
39:33you're watching this and you're going like,
39:34Oh my God,
39:35like,
39:35you know,
39:36all of drama is happening right here.
39:38This is,
39:39this is some of the greatest puppetry you've ever seen.
39:42And no one's blinking.
39:44No,
39:44no lips are moving.
39:45It really doesn't matter.
39:47There is an inherent power.
39:51It works on adults too.
39:53It's not just for kids.
39:54We're,
39:54even though we've grown up and moved on and these are,
39:57this is now silliness to us,
39:59we're hardwired.
40:00We are,
40:01it's,
40:02what was it?
40:03Chris found an interesting quote by Orson Welles recently,
40:08which said that speaking about the power of puppets and how it doesn't just
40:14bring us back to the crib,
40:15which was my example,
40:16let's say,
40:18but also back to the cave,
40:21which means that this is actually eternal.
40:23We've been watching,
40:23you know,
40:25shadows on the side of the wall when there's a little campfire to keep warm
40:30since,
40:30since the beginning of humanity.
40:32And it's always worked.
40:34Why wouldn't it work now?
40:35In fact,
40:36shadows on the wall,
40:37maybe the first use of technology and storytelling.
40:40Sure.
40:41Yeah.
40:42Yeah.
40:42I think you're probably right.
40:43And also just kind of before we wrap things up,
40:46you know,
40:47we've talked so much about the eyes and,
40:49you know,
40:50what you see through these characters.
40:51And I wonder if you could just talk a little bit about how difficult or not
40:56some of those choices are,
40:58such as you can't help but notice that the grandfather has bright blue eyes
41:02when we first meet him and,
41:04you know,
41:05whatever that might bring with you in terms of where you think we're headed in
41:08this story,
41:09knowing that it's that particular time,
41:10sort of turn of the 20th century.
41:13You know,
41:14I think the movie is set very particularly at this moment just before the
41:22first world war.
41:23And this was our way of modernizing the story,
41:28the fable from,
41:29let's say the classic Hans Christian Anderson mold of storytelling,
41:32which are beautiful,
41:35which are beautiful,
41:35wonderful,
41:35timeless stories,
41:38yet very much set with the,
41:41in the sort of,
41:42let's say the faith and worldview of the mid 19th century when they were
41:45written.
41:45So to retell those stories in the 21st century without a post-modernism.
41:53Yeah.
41:54And modern or modernizing them in any way because it knows move in those stories.
41:59These,
42:00these little girls suffer and die and,
42:02but they get to go to heaven and the more they suffer.
42:05Yeah.
42:06The more reward there is in heaven.
42:07And to tell that story now was,
42:10was a dead end for us.
42:11It just wasn't,
42:12there was not,
42:13there was nothing interesting.
42:14There's no meat on that bone.
42:15Or at least we couldn't say it honestly.
42:16Yeah.
42:16And so we thought it would be interesting to set the story right at the edge
42:23of the cliff.
42:23The moment when the 19th century worldview is about to meet the 20th
42:30century and world war one and world war two and all the horrors and progress
42:37and science and questioning and the good and bad of that,
42:42that the whole world that,
42:44that let's say that birthed these fables was about to get Bologna into
42:50smithereens and in a way make the story about that transition between those
42:57two worlds.
42:58And so from the world of,
42:59you know,
42:59wood and magic to the world of synthetic materials and plastic that were the
43:05world we grew up in.
43:06And the old man who becomes this great businessman actually starts as a,
43:10without spoiling the story,
43:11he starts as a great businessman.
43:13He's the,
43:14he's one of those people who sees the future before anyone else does.
43:18And that's also what the story is about.
43:20That's his,
43:21it's about his,
43:22his foresight that he can take advantage of this moment where he knows
43:27something that no one else does yet.
43:30which is what I think I don't have this talent in finance,
43:35but it's a fascinating character,
43:39let's say to put in a story.
43:41Yeah.
43:41I think all the characters are fascinating.
43:44And again,
43:44without wishing to spoil it for people,
43:46I haven't seen it yet,
43:46but in terms of the fools that they'll carry and how they carry them with
43:51lightness or not.
43:52So just to end on,
43:53could you just talk a little bit about another,
43:56I assume I'm speaking to you from Montreal this morning.
43:59Yes,
44:00of course.
44:00So you've got like sort of early 1900s,
44:02Montreal skyline throughout a lot of this,
44:05which is just beautiful,
44:06but it's not something that I'm personally overly familiar with.
44:09How realistic,
44:10how much play could you put into that skyline and how much pride I guess is
44:14there in,
44:14in having that immortalized like this?
44:17Oh,
44:17interesting.
44:20Well,
44:20you know,
44:20we did,
44:21we,
44:21we did a lot of research on what the,
44:24what the city looked like a hundred years ago,
44:25but then that's not necessarily how we built it.
44:29We,
44:29we there's,
44:31there's a long river view,
44:32for example,
44:33at the,
44:33at the beginning where we should not have put the Jacques Cartier bridge into
44:39the distance.
44:39It wasn't built at that time.
44:41It came around,
44:41it happened 60 years later or something.
44:43And we thought like,
44:44there's somebody going to call us out on this.
44:46And like,
44:47actually that bridge was only built in the 1930s or something.
44:53But it,
44:53in a way,
44:54I think like we thought about it.
44:56We thought,
44:56we thought about the research we did as something that you,
45:01you load into your head and then dream on it for a little while and see
45:05what kind of hydraulic compression happens there inside of the head.
45:09And,
45:09and how,
45:09and,
45:10and put it out as a more of a intuitive way,
45:15a poetic way of addressing how the city feels to you rather than what it
45:21actually looked like.
45:22That,
45:22that was meaningless to us.
45:23Yeah.
45:25And anyway,
45:26the second part of your question had to do with whether we're fond of it
45:30or the pride of it.
45:32Like for,
45:32for sure,
45:33there's a,
45:33we've never seen Montreal done in miniature in a,
45:37in an animated film like this.
45:38It was,
45:38it was so fun to do,
45:40to be there in the studio and try to recreate the places where,
45:45where we actually live,
45:46you know,
45:47to,
45:48we were aware that in some,
45:50if,
45:50if that we're actually doing something that we have to be a little bit
45:53responsible with,
45:54that we are kind of romanticizing the city we live in and we can't lie
45:57about it.
45:58It had to,
45:59not to say that it's,
46:01that we try to be accurate.
46:02It's just that it had to feel correctly.
46:04You had to feel like there's,
46:08there's musicians in the city who make music that sounds like when you're
46:13walking through the streets,
46:14feeling like,
46:15you know,
46:19desperation and poverty and the darkness,
46:21but at the same time,
46:22you're in love with somebody that,
46:24that,
46:25that melancholy and,
46:27and sentimentality had to be in the air.
46:30So we,
46:32we worked just long enough to feel like that's actually there,
46:36that,
46:36that the air is,
46:37is thick with this kind of mood,
46:39you know?
46:41I think one of the great pleasures of having worked on this is to have
46:47maybe contributed.
46:48I mean,
46:49I'm,
46:50I hope I'm not wrong,
46:51but to have contributed a little bit to,
46:54to building a mythology for the neighborhoods that we live in,
47:01and are raising children.
47:02And we want them to have a romantic connection with the city.
47:08That's given them by art.
47:11You know,
47:11it's interesting.
47:12I was,
47:13so Montreal has not had streetcars for I think 60 or 70 years.
47:19Most people don't know that Montreal ever had streetcars.
47:22It exists only in the research.
47:25This summer,
47:26they were tearing up street Mount Royal.
47:30That's not far from here.
47:33And as part of the tearing up the street,
47:36they dug up all the old streetcar tracks and they were lying,
47:41all these old boards and the,
47:43the,
47:44the girders were just all twisted and before they were pulled away for,
47:48forever.
47:49And I was thinking like,
47:50Oh,
47:50that's interesting.
47:51I wonder,
47:52you know,
47:52the fact that I didn't even think about the streetcars much,
47:55but I had this,
47:57I got very excited when I saw the tracks only because we'd put that in our
48:01movie and we'd thought so much about them.
48:03And so,
48:04I mean,
48:04whether it works on no on anybody else,
48:06I don't know,
48:06but it allowed me to absolutely rethink the history of the city in a,
48:11in a new romantic way.
48:13Yeah.
48:14It's beautiful.
48:15And thank you both so much for taking the time to delve into so many
48:18aspects of the girl who cried pearls and Chris and magic.
48:22It's been,
48:22it's been a pleasure.
48:24It's been a great pleasure.
48:25Those were great questions.
48:27Thank you so much.
48:28It's it's beautiful that someone is so interested about this.
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