The Game-Changing Lesson from Operation Sindoor for Indian Defence Drone Tech | Venkatesh Sai

The deployment of 34 drones in Operation Sindoor delivered a game-changing lesson for Indian defence tech.
In S1E5 of Mic’d Up With, Venkatesh Sai, founder of Zuppa Geo Navigation Technologies, tells Asianet News’ Adith Charlie how that frontline experience forced a radical rethink.

He shares how they solved the "disparate computing problem" with a brain-inspired autopilot, why a "cooling fan for a cooling fan" defines defence standards, and how over 3,000 failures built 1,500 successes. The future? Quantum sensors and self-contained systems for unhackable drones, built on the founding principle: "We only sell what we make."

#OperationSindoor #ZuppaDrones #DefenceTech #IndianArmy #AtmanirbharBharat #QuantumSensors #MadeInIndia #DefenceInnovation #MicdUpWith #AdithCharlie

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Transcript

00:00It's not very glamorous initially. As of today we have closed about 1250 successful deployments.

00:05We might have had about three, maybe two to three times of that as failures.

00:14We had about 34 units totally deployed.

00:1734 drones?

00:1834 drones.

00:26Totally deployed in and around the Patankot area.

00:29Okay.

00:30So this was primarily for just not intrusing, just going up to the LOC and seeing what's at least happening.

00:35We had a person stationed there, he was keeping on telling us, you know, what was the issue.

00:39Will it be truly possible to have a UAV, a drone, which is non-hackable?

00:44You know, if you go through our Yogas and Upanishads and others, you would realize that, you know, we have a magnetic center,

00:50but most of us, you know, are not able to utilize it.

00:53But birds have a, you know, kind of a method by which they give you Earth's magnetic field to navigate and understand where they are.

01:00So in a very similar way, we do this using quantum sensor.

01:04So once you have that kind of a self-sustained system, it's extremely tough to actually hack it.

01:10Hello everyone. Welcome again to Mic'd Up with India's Defence Premiers.

01:25This is where I bring you up close and personal with the men and women who are making Atmanirbar Bharat a reality in India's defence sector.

01:33My today's guest is Venkatesh Sai, founder and technical director of Zuppa Geo Navigation Systems.

01:41Venki, thank you so much for joining in. Welcome to the show.

01:44It's a wonderful opportunity because I think, you know, the general public really need to know what all is happening in this space, especially in the private sector.

01:53A lot of coverage goes towards IT and other areas, but this is something that is now emerging.

02:00Yeah, we were talking off-air and you did mention that probably 60-70% of stuff that actually happens never makes it, you know,

02:09Correct, into the newspaper columns to the public domain.

02:12Yes, in the newspaper, our websites, unfortunately we do a lot of cool things that we can't talk about.

02:18Right.

02:19Because of stuff that we have signed.

02:21So, but yeah, at least through this podcast, I will try to highlight things which we have maybe already done,

02:27which are in public domain, which we can, you know, use as examples to show how, you know, how challenging this space is.

02:34You know, that is, that is, I want to get out that technical challenge which exists within this space.

02:40It's unlike any other industry which exists, you know.

02:44I am going to start with that point which you just made about the technical challenges when it comes to solving for India's defense forces.

02:53What's the biggest pain point if I were to put you on the spot right away?

02:57Yeah.

02:58So, we have geography and, you know, it would have not been only me, the other people also before would have told you the same thing.

03:05See, we have, we are the only country which has deserts on one side and we have high altitude terrain on the other side.

03:13When it comes to any technology, typically if you take, you know, either Israeli technology or Russian technology or some,

03:21it's either built to operate in heat or cold.

03:24It doesn't need to take a huge variance of conditions into account.

03:31Like most of, you know, what we see in Russia, Ukraine is, you know, at temperatures may be from 0 to 25, maximum 30.

03:41And in Israel, we see it at about 45, 50, 60 plus.

03:45Whereas here we have operating temperatures at minus 20 on the eastern border and we have operating temperatures in excess of

03:5445, 50 degrees on the western border.

03:57So, that is the geographic variance of temperatures and situation presents the biggest challenge

04:07in technology.

04:08Because you need to make sure your system works as good in this environment as well as extremely,

04:14you know, diametrically opposite environment.

04:17It's also an opportunity, right?

04:18Yeah.

04:19Because you can now build products in India, which are hardwired and tested extensively that

04:27they can be deployed anywhere in the world.

04:29True.

04:30And that is the unique opportunity which India actually faces today because of the push from

04:36the government side, from the institutions.

04:41And the fact that, you know, export laws, taxes and methods have actually become easier now.

04:50Because of which we have that opportunity to actually export and we are having such enquiries also coming up.

04:56I see.

04:57Yeah.

04:58So, we are working with some countries on their requirements as of now.

05:04The name of the company, you said 2017 is when the name change happened.

05:09Yeah.

05:10Zuppa I think means soup in Italian.

05:12Yeah.

05:13Why would a defense tech company go with that name?

05:16Yeah, yeah.

05:17Great.

05:18So, as you can see I am a foodie.

05:19So, there is no doubt in that.

05:21So, I like this soup called Zuppa which is an Italian soup which has a lot of, which has

05:27all the ingredients that you could find locally, I mean within Italy.

05:32Of course, now it is all over the world.

05:34So, wherever you find local vegetables produce, it is basically used within one soup.

05:40Right.

05:41So, similar to that, we said that, you know, as a company, we have all the ingredients it

05:46takes to actually, you know, make a UAS or unmanned system in terms of chips, in terms

05:53of softwares, in terms of hardware, in terms of, you know, mechanical designs, etc.

05:59So, we said, okay, we are also like Zuppa.

06:02Yes.

06:03So, we have all the ingredients.

06:05So, and I also wanted to, you know, we have certain software development kits and all

06:10that, SDKs that we give.

06:12So, I wanted that Java kind of feel where, you know, you have the Java SDK, so here you

06:17have the Zuppa SDK.

06:18Interesting.

06:19Yeah.

06:20So, that's how it came.

06:21Very nice.

06:22If I want to take you to the very beginning of your journey, 2012 is when Zuppa as a company

06:29got incorporated under a very different name.

06:32Your LinkedIn profile tells me that 2012 is also when you started your engineering education.

06:38So, how did you juggle both being a full-time student and a full-time entrepreneur?

06:43So, in all its justification, I was not a full-time entrepreneur.

06:48Hmm.

06:49The idea is started off with the fact that I had, I possessed a unique skill set because

06:55from, you know, close to about 10, from 10 years of age around 2007, 8 itself, I used

07:02to do a lot of aero modeling and drone flying.

07:06For our viewers, what is aero modeling?

07:09Aero modeling is basically a hobby.

07:11It is anybody can take up aero modeling and it is called remote control, you know, RC flying,

07:17you know, it is a very colloquially called.

07:19You have these flying clubs where you can go on the weekend and, you know, fly around RC planes,

07:25you know, and there is no automation or any electronics of its sort.

07:29But it is quite a, you know, it is a very nice sport that people can take up.

07:34And it is a sport as well as it is a hobby which people can take up.

07:38And today a lot of people are doing that.

07:40Is it similar to being a glider pilot?

07:42No, not exactly a glider pilot.

07:45This is, this is very similar to, you know, what you would see, you know, your RC cars,

07:50guys, you know, driving on the track.

07:52So, this is the same thing in the air.

07:54So, you know, you remote control, you fly a aircraft and, and then, you know, visually

07:59you can do stunts with it.

08:01It is called F3A, there is a sport itself called F3A, they have an F3A Olympics also.

08:07I see.

08:08So, you know, it is a, it is a crazy domain on its own.

08:13So, you know, you might see these crazy videos where these helicopter RC helicopter pilots

08:19would do crazy stunts with the helicopter, you know, getting it inverted and all that.

08:24So, that kind of skill.

08:26So, I, I possessed those skills.

08:29And thankfully for me at that time also the UAB industry was just about taking off, people

08:36were putting together UABs.

08:38So, with, under the National Aerospace Laboratories NAL which is here in Bangalore itself, they

08:44had a project called man backpack 2 kg class UAB.

08:47Okay.

08:48So, under that I was a test pilot.

08:50So, the company started off with the fact that because I was a test pilot, you know,

08:55I had to work with them.

08:57I could not work as a student with them.

08:58So, we started and incorporated the company.

09:01But, going forward I then became a system integrator with them where just from instead of just flying

09:08the drone as such that they had built, I used to identify components that we could import

09:13from abroad, put it together and, you know, give it to them and then they could, you know,

09:18validate it and then we can test play.

09:20And it was from this aspect that we came to the realization that there is something which

09:28is of core within the drone and it constitutes close to 50 to 60 percent of the cost of the

09:35drone which is basically called the autopilot colloquially and in other words it is called

09:41the FCS flight control system.

09:43So, at that time when we started there were close to about 7 companies worldwide who are

09:49making these systems.

09:50As of today in terms of proprietary autopilots there are about only 12 companies still.

09:55So, globally.

09:56Globally.

09:57So, we are thankfully one among those 12 who have our own proven patented technology.

10:04So, it started off with saying, okay, let us instead of trying to, you know, completely

10:11only be putting together a system, there should be a way that we should be able to make this.

10:18It was very tough because, you know, when you talk about a flight control system, any kind

10:23of control system, you are actually taking an action based on data.

10:27Right.

10:28You know, many of the devices that we use like phones, televisions, laptops, etcetera,

10:34you are only presented the data then you have to take the action.

10:37Like, whether a call comes, you presented the call you have to take the action.

10:41Right.

10:42Like an app you are trading stocks, it would suggest you whether you want to buy and sell,

10:46but ultimately you have to take the action.

10:48Correct.

10:49Whereas in this case from real-time sensors, we have to compute it, analyze it and real-time

10:56take an action.

10:57So, that is where, you know, there were different types of requirements which came and then we

11:03identified autopilots are very core, then we started doing work in that.

11:09In 2014, we were recognized by Department of Science and Technology and 2015, they gave

11:15us a loan also to commercialize this.

11:182016, we commercialized it and 2017, it became Zuppa Geo Navigation and we actually begun operations

11:25from that time.

11:27So, then yeah, from then over that time, we have been scaling it horizontally.

11:32And as of last 2 to 3 years, you have also been scaling it vertically in terms of revenues.

11:36So, clearly, you know, being a student and a part entrepreneur or a part-time entrepreneur

11:41at the same time didn't really, didn't really impact you as much.

11:45It has its own challenges.

11:47I wouldn't say, you know, I had a big issue with attendance because attendance is very strict

11:52in colleges.

11:53But yeah, somehow I was able to get it through.

11:55So, I would really like to thank my college for that.

11:58I am sure they must be watching this.

12:01I was just going through your website the other day and I saw that a lot of your products

12:05have very indigenous Indian names, the Ajith drone for instance, the Drishya technology.

12:11Tell us a little more about these 2 products.

12:14Yeah.

12:15So, it actually, it all, the company, all, or the, the, and the entire technology within

12:20the company started off with the first product called Navgati, which is a core chipset, it's

12:27an autopilot.

12:28It's, it's like the motherboard of a drone.

12:30So, the autopilot is hardware plus software.

12:32Yeah, hardware plus software.

12:34So, it, it consists of the entire thing, it's called a cyber physical stack hardware,

12:40firmware, communication protocol, ground control station, the entire thing.

12:45So, that was our first product.

12:47Then we had certain software, we made a software for a ground control station that's called

12:53the Disha.

12:54Then we wrapped that into our Ajith series of drones.

12:58Okay.

12:59Where we have deployed close to over now around 400 plus drones within the armed forces.

13:03Mm-hm.

13:04And even within the Ajith, we have different series like we have the Hawk, we have the Eagle,

13:09Condor, Harrier, different types of drones.

13:14So, Ajith is the flagship.

13:15Yeah.

13:16Ajith is the flagship.

13:17It's the, it's the retail end of the business where we actually sell and work with direct

13:22end customers.

13:23So, our business is split in two ways where we also work with companies who supply drones

13:30to government institutions, enterprises, etc.

13:34To them we supply electronics, softwares and other things.

13:38We also sell our own drones in the market.

13:422025 has been earmarked by the Ministry of Defense as the year of reforms.

13:47I am wondering what does that mean for companies like yourselves who have been in this space

13:52for more than a decade.

13:54What are the kind of changes you are seeing on the ground?

13:57So, if you look at it, yes, it has, it has impacted us in a good way, in a very positive

14:06way.

14:07And that is primarily because today the political situation is such.

14:12Now, if you look at it, let us just leave our company or you know the industry everything,

14:18let us talk about geographically, geopolitically the situation.

14:21Today we have India which was previously highly dependent on Russian weapons and imports.

14:28Today Russia is fighting its own war.

14:30It is not, we are not able to get spares for Sukhoi-30, MK2.

14:35Then other ally was Israel, they are fighting their own war.

14:40US, we really, you know the technology doesn't work very well in our…

14:45Conditions.

14:46Harsh conditions.

14:47Yeah.

14:48And Turkey who is one of the number one companies and see, if you look at it in drone, let us

14:55look at the unmanned space, okay.

14:58Everybody thinks in an unmanned space, you have US, Israel which are you know one of the

15:03top countries, it is actually not the case.

15:06If you look at it, the top country in the world is China followed by Iran followed by Turkey.

15:12And this is primarily, why did Iran and Turkey come up as being drone powers?

15:18It was because of sanctions.

15:19Right.

15:20You know, because of sanctions they couldn't build their air force.

15:23Turkey also had sanctions.

15:24They had certain sanctions on engines.

15:27So, they had their own, you know that that is why they are, you know they have, they have

15:34started that close to 5 years back they have started that program to make their own engines.

15:40And they have recently also test flown 5th generation fighter with that engine.

15:44I see.

15:45So, their basic sanction was on engines.

15:48Got it.

15:49So, they could you know import an airframe and all that but you did not have an engine.

15:53Similar thing we are facing with the Kaveri engine on the Tejas.

15:56Yeah.

15:57Where G is you know taking time for them to actually supply the engine.

16:02So, because of which they came up you know in the drone space.

16:07So, similarly now there is a realization which has come within the Indian armed forces.

16:12That as such we do not have a very strong ally in terms of drone technology who is with us.

16:20Yeah.

16:21And going forward most of the war situations in terms of war scenarios are going to involve

16:29drones in a large way, unmanned systems not only drones, not only aerial even ground even

16:35surface vehicles.

16:36Yeah.

16:37So, there is a huge emphasis and even budgets given in terms of commands now have R and

16:43D budgets which was unheard of.

16:45Is it?

16:46Yeah commands have R and D budgets because you know unfortunately you know in our situation

16:51of defense R and D if the if a user wants a certain requirement today by the time it goes

16:58through the DRDO and the official channels it takes maybe 5, 6 years for the user if I state

17:03the requirement today by 2030 I get a product by then it is obsolete.

17:08So today the commands have been given power saying within 6 to 8 months you develop solutions

17:13that we need today.

17:14And that is why they are coming up with these test centers I think.

17:16Test centers, outreach centers as well as you know they are working heavily with private

17:23sector.

17:24Right.

17:25And you know in terms of their ability to also be able to work with them.

17:31So, previously that was quite curtailed.

17:33Correct.

17:34As a army institution you could as a defense institution you could only procure material,

17:41fully tested material from the forces.

17:44Any kind of R and D had to go to DRD only.

17:48Whereas today the army is saying you know we will take application field level R and D we

17:52will do directly with the company.

17:54I see.

17:55And get things done.

17:56Because we need solutions today.

17:58We cannot have solutions 5, 6 years from now.

18:01So, in that sense it has opened up a lot of things for us.

18:05But where could be the you know area of the improvement if you ask me.

18:10See today the the procedure unfortunately over the last 60 years has been set up in such

18:18a way in a such a cumbersome way that it becomes hard for them to actually release funds you know

18:24they might be able to sign a contract with you.

18:27But by the time the milestones get achieved the funds come in and then you use those funds

18:32to actually make something for them or products produce something for them.

18:37It becomes a burden on the company.

18:39So, that is where something they have to really look at because you know smaller companies

18:44for orders say about 3, 400 crore orders.

18:47We might not have the working capital to actually produce that material.

18:52And even if we do get it and today you can get it in terms of high interest debt.

18:56But if the payment cycle extends too long.

19:00Then it becomes a burden on the company again.

19:03So, those are a few things that they have to work out but they have realized it.

19:07I mean it is I think it is far beyond that we have operation Sindhuur has really opened

19:13everybody's eyes.

19:14And today we have realized what has to be done and they are working actively towards doing

19:19it.

19:20But yeah policy especially in terms of commercial outflows in terms of commercial policies need

19:26to be more friendlier for companies to work with them.

19:30Operation Sindhuur was also in many ways a test bed for electronic warfare.

19:35We kept reading stories of how some of the drones that are deployed would not work because

19:42they were getting jammed, they were getting hacked.

19:45Did your products also encounter something similar?

19:47Yes.

19:48So, I would say that every product encountered something similar because it was a real test

19:54as to see till now we have been only simulating situations.

19:58Right.

19:59We really never faced a situation for the product.

20:02You know previous to companies like us working used to normally have Israelis or you know the

20:10Russians solving the problem for the ministry.

20:14But now that they are working so much with companies, with many companies, we were the people

20:18who had to actually understand and create solutions like I will give you a basic anecdote.

20:22Sure.

20:23So, when we first sent the first few drones across the Ajith Hawk platforms, they got you know initially

20:32there was a lot of EW which was there at 200-300 meters AMSL altude because they were using

20:37what we call as mass spectrum gypsy jammers.

20:41Okay.

20:42This is for basically over the top kind of operations.

20:44Over the top.

20:45Not crossing the border.

20:46Not crossing the border.

20:47Even close to about 2 kilometers from the border we were facing these issues.

20:52I see.

20:53So, we are not able to reach the LOC to even see what is going on.

20:57So, what was the solution?

20:58We immediately said okay fine we are facing some issues here.

21:01Ones are getting affected they are not able to perform.

21:04So, we increase the altitude to which over which they fly.

21:09So that solved it temporarily.

21:11Then we saw that they were starting to use directed jamming.

21:14So then we had to switch frequencies to on the field.

21:18So it was a big learning experience and I would say this learning did not stop there.

21:22It has been continuously evolving both at the end users end as well as our end.

21:28So, we are all trying to solve this problem because we know what has been what was subjected

21:34in the field we realize it very clearly.

21:37How many of your units were deployed?

21:39So, we had about 34 units totally deployed.

21:4234 drones.

21:4334 drones totally deployed in and around the Patankot area.

21:46Okay.

21:47So, this is primarily for just not intrusing.

21:49Just going up to the LOC and seeing what is at least happening.

21:53So, that is what it was primarily used for.

21:55And this real time learning were you also part of that like?

21:59Yeah.

22:00Did you have team station first time?

22:01Yeah, we had a person stationed there.

22:03Okay.

22:04They had also given us certificate for of operation for that.

22:08I see.

22:09So, we had a person stationed there he was keeping on telling us you know what was the

22:12issue.

22:13Of course, our person couldn't go right up to the border.

22:16Because the people only who are operating it were going the you know the army personnel.

22:22But the feedback they were giving we were had to rework it understand okay they are doing

22:27something how do we counter this.

22:28Right.

22:29And real time with what we have will do it.

22:32But now we do realize we require more cutting edge technology we need to we need to not develop

22:39per say we need to adapt our systems to be a lot more you know robust in EW conditions.

22:47And it was it was it is a good test you know because I would say you know in the defense

22:54there are a lot there are very few companies who are genuine and lot of companies who are

22:59you know just trading.

23:00Right.

23:01And today it is only the genuine companies who have the technology who can adapt to this.

23:05Correct.

23:06So, it might be a small interim you know kind of thing till we catch up to that you know

23:13requirement but post that you know you have only the technology will dictate who would

23:19be able to continue to supply to the armed forces.

23:21So, what is that one big learning that you as a company and you as an entrepreneur have

23:26taken from operations in do that we can see reflections of in the you know next generation

23:31of your products.

23:32See one of the core things that we have understood is that any any kind of guidance or navigation

23:44function on the drone has to be he has to evolve to be self content.

23:49Okay.

23:50What I mean by this is it does not rely upon any external data source like a GPS or cell phone

23:59network or satellite communication to be able to pinpoint and guide itself.

24:06It needs to be able to do it self content.

24:08So, you have options in you have certain options which are there for that.

24:14Okay.

24:15Which are both in terms of vision in terms of quantum sensing which are there.

24:19AI machine learning powered.

24:20AI machine learning is what we will see today because those are the things that we can deploy

24:26today to be able to solve that problem.

24:28Okay.

24:29So, going forward it is going to most of the systems are going to be having quantum based

24:34solutions for the same.

24:38So, you know I do not I do not want to be very technical into how a quantum system plays

24:44into this.

24:45Okay.

24:46But a lot of the errors accumulated errors in navigation can be offset by quantum sensors.

24:51I see.

24:52So, that is the next generation of systems in fact we have also signed an MOU with a company

24:58who is working on that in Hyderabad.

25:00Okay.

25:01So, we see that in maybe next 3 to 4 years those are the systems which will come down in being

25:07operated.

25:08In the interim you would be having vision based solutions you know using AI and machine learning.

25:13For it going forward will it be truly possible to have a UAV a drone which is non-hackable

25:21which cannot be hacked.

25:22Yes.

25:23So, that is what I when I talked about a quantum sensing see actually are how quantum sensing

25:31works is is that you know you have different ways by which you can use quantum sensors to

25:38be able to pinpoint your location without any external cues.

25:44The biggest and the most common method which is now being looked at is called you know field

25:49magnetometry.

25:50Okay.

25:51See the earth's magnet it is it is basically going back to how the birds navigate.

25:56I see.

25:57See the birds have a very attuned sensitive magnetic and we also have it actually it is you know

26:03if you go I do not want to digress into other topics but you know if you go through

26:08our yogas and you know Upanishads and others you would realize that you know we have a magnetic

26:13center center but most of us you know are not able to utilize it.

26:18But birds have a you know kind of a method by which they give you earth's magnetic field

26:22to navigate and understand value.

26:25So in a very similar way we do this using quantum sensor.

26:29So once you have that kind of a self sustained system it is extremely tough to actually hack it

26:35you might be able to disrupt it in some way for a short time.

26:41But as such taking over and hacking will be a kind of an impossibility.

26:45I am curious to say whether this moniker would apply to you made in Chennai not made in China.

26:51Yeah made in Chennai definitely now I would say that close to around 90 percent of our components

27:00today are indigenous within the the SOM itself within within the chip itself.

27:09Okay.

27:10In terms of resistors capacitors we are getting it from Vishay semiconductors we are getting

27:14it from sources within India.

27:17Of course, as of now the core microprocessors are still imported.

27:22But still we are working with SEDAC on their new they have the Tejas 32 indigenous microcontroller.

27:31So we have been given access to that and we are currently in the process of adapting that.

27:37So that is you know made in Chennai made in India so that is something we are proud of and very

27:45consciously as a company we have avoided the easy route of trying to use something that

27:51is available.

27:52Right.

27:53We we only sell things that we make that is that something that is very clear we do not

27:59make it we do not sell it.

28:00Going beyond applications in defense tech we were talking about you know what else where else

28:05can UAVs be UAVs be used and he did mention that a lot of their drones are now being used

28:14to prevent human animal conflict and in his words this is what gives him maximum satisfaction.

28:20So I was curious apart from military applications are there other industrial or societal applications

28:27of your machines that you could tell us a little about.

28:32So we have we have used our products also for you know this your forest surveys and the and

28:43basically you know your wildlife count estimations.

28:48Right.

28:49Flora fauna estimations people have used it for that more than those industries what excites

28:57me is actually the it might seem very cliche but because I am more of a tech guy I actually

29:04get excited with the contribution to the educational aspect that as a company we can make and we

29:10are making.

29:11See today through our drone labs initiative we have partnered with close to around 35 institutions

29:17including IIT IIC and other top tier institutions.

29:24The reason being is see when I started off doing electronics I am an electronics communication

29:30engineer.

29:31When I started this field off we I realized that there is such a big gap in our education

29:37system today when it comes for making electronics and softwares for flying aerospace applications.

29:44Right.

29:45You know what we call as electronics for aerospace is called avionics you know avionics.

29:51So I have learnt it the hard way over nearly now 12 years in this industry and I have so

29:58many learnings in terms of modeling how mathematical modeling has to be done.

30:02Right.

30:03So I say those type of things I am imparting to various institutions and we know when when

30:09that day we were also speaking to one of the first year second year students from IITM and

30:16when we were training them they were like so this these these kind of things we even if

30:20I put it on AII I don't even if I put it on chat GPT I don't get a kind of perspective

30:23on this because.

30:24I see.

30:25There is some knowledge that somebody is you know has got and given so for me that piece

30:31if you look at our contribution to society what excites me is actually in the educational

30:37sector where things that we have learnt from the field in our experience of you know taking

30:44something that is why I told you totally radical and proving it and getting it to work that is

30:50something that really excites me and we are we are doing that in fact in the drone lamps

30:55program through our LMS we don't charge for any of the knowledge.

30:58And you partner with the educational institutions.

31:00Educational institutions.

31:01Okay.

31:02And the knowledge is free.

31:03I see.

31:04You know we I always believe that knowledge will grow only when shared you know just trying

31:09to keep it with us it doesn't work out.

31:11Yeah.

31:12So we are in that process so that that is something that I feel more than this and you know civilian applications

31:20because education is something that really drives me you know I mean the next generation

31:26of engineers the next generation of techno entrepreneurs who would work in this space you know which is a tough space.

31:34Yeah.

31:35Which requires a lot more ingenuity than working in many maybe something like software

31:39or something.

31:40Correct.

31:41This would get them excited because today you know they do not have that kind of exposure.

31:47When when you talk about avionics, when you talk about field systems, land systems these

31:52are very theoretical topics currently in the education system.

31:56Correct.

31:57And maybe in a top tier in university like IITM you might have some practical exposure but

32:02generally it is very you know theoretical still in nature.

32:05That is something that I want to change you know.

32:08Absolutely.

32:09So these are partnerships with campuses like colleges and stuff.

32:12Yeah.

32:13We are doing it both in the defense and civilian.

32:16Okay.

32:17So in the defense we are like we have an MOU with Madras Regiment Center.

32:20They are the largest regiment center in the Indian armed forces.

32:24They train the maximum number of Agni Veers and officers within the armed forces.

32:30Right.

32:31And these are all 8 to 12th you know standard people most of officers of course are graduates.

32:37Right.

32:38But most of the population are 8 to 12th.

32:42So, in the armed forces we are working with them, we have created modules specifically for

32:46them, for them to be able to understand how this system works and get them interested

32:52into at least operating, maintaining you know using these systems.

32:58And with the education institutions we have a module called innovation lab.

33:02Where we see we are even giving source codes like certain bits of source codes watered down

33:08versions of stuff we have developed for the defense.

33:10Watered down versions with approvals from defense we have given it to educational institutions.

33:18So that see unless a person sees something on the you know how it looks how it is supposed

33:23to look.

33:24You will not be able to build the next line of you know engineers.

33:30And we see we see that that has to be built today see every country see how did it go first

33:37it was all localization in the 60s and 70s then it became globalization now it's again

33:41becoming.

33:42It's all coming inward again.

33:44It's again coming inward.

33:45So we need to depend on our own strengths and we have good enough aptitude and brain power

33:50within the country.

33:51Right.

33:52The only thing is to be able to nurture it.

33:55Now when you when you only see something practical will you be able to get that interest to go

33:59into that field.

34:00Correct.

34:01And pursue it.

34:02So that's that's what we are doing.

34:03So we have different modules for defense we have different modules for civilian civilian

34:09focuses more on stuff like mathematical modeling flight dynamics flight control laws boundary

34:15conditions the actual core you know maths behind a control system and in defense we focus more

34:22on the operations maintenance serviceability minor upgrades on the field all this kind of

34:29things.

34:30Interesting.

34:31So what would be your top advice to the next line of engineers next line of entrepreneurs

34:38you know because in this space as you also pointed out solutions were needed as of yesterday.

34:44And this is now attracting a lot of young talent a lot of people from the consumer tech side

34:49are also moving into defense.

34:51What would be your top advice when it comes to building something sustainable for the long

34:54run.

34:55See my top advice is that don't ever try to take a shortcut there are especially in today's

35:04world we have a lot of enticements to take shortcuts.

35:08Yeah.

35:09To be able to quickly monetize things but they rarely turn out to be sustainable.

35:18Take the effort but and make something in your own niche which is core you know you have

35:24your entire you have the entire control over what you have made.

35:27Right.

35:28And it might take a slightly longer time or it might take more effort.

35:31Nowadays in fact with AI time has started as reduced it only takes more effort.

35:37True.

35:38So you go down that road then you build something sustainable.

35:44It's not very glamorous initially it in fact involves a lot of hard work and lot of failures.

35:50So we might be having close to about 300 successful as of today we have close to about 1250 successful

35:58deployments.

35:59We might have had about three maybe two to three times of that as failures.

36:03When you say failures these are failures at a deployment level or at a project level.

36:07At the starting level you know like you know when we started off we initially went piloted

36:12with the customer it didn't work.

36:15You know I can clearly say it didn't work I mean we I will give you give us an instance

36:19yeah.

36:20Like when you talk about the defense space people very rarely realize that there are something

36:26called standards.

36:28And these standards are required for a specific reason I will tell you the entire flow of standards.

36:33Please.

36:34So if you if you were to say take this phone yeah this phone has a standard for designing

36:41the chipset it is called IEEE 211 right now if you then once you design it you get the

36:47components you have to place these components correctly that is called IPC610A then once

36:52you have placed it you need to be having a quality certification like AS 9100 to be able

36:59to make sure that this thing will last.

37:02Then for the component itself you need to be able to have a component level certification like

37:07L461 and you need to be able to make sure that if I drop it it doesn't break and rough use that

37:13is comes under JSS Penta 5, 5855.

37:16When we started off I still remember the first PCB you know we were like put all kind of tracks

37:22together chipsets you know we didn't know anything about standards I knew that I need

37:26to make something but I didn't know much about standards so you know we put something together

37:33it worked maybe once then it didn't work okay so you're trying to figure out why it didn't work

37:37so then I realized you know you need to you need to be able to go through standards standards are

37:43not something that's oppressive many companies and startups especially young come young entrepreneurs

37:48today when they come out in this space they get bogged on saying why are there so many standards

37:55it's a common complaint that you would have maybe you know when you interact with many of the young guys

37:59yeah starting out you say the standardization is a major challenge for us the reason standards

38:06are present are because when your product has to work it has to work in this industry

38:11correct we do not have that option where say in banking or fintech or whatever I can

38:16say customer support is closed in the weekend we will come back on monday

38:21if your product has to work at that point it has to I will give you a very simple product it's not there

38:26but now it's come out in the open this thing so we can so we make something called laser designator for

38:33ballistic applications like guns guns basically you know for many of the gun oems within india one or

38:41two of the gun oems so that is a kind of product which basically it gets a range estimate to a target

38:48and then it lasers the target with a certain beam that beam can be used for your own aiming or it can be

38:55used for designating it with another you know overhead weapon a hyperbaric weapon or something

39:03now when that laser has to switch on and work you have to imagine the situation where i am close

39:10to the enemy the enemy say maybe already spotted me is firing something through a small hole i am

39:16trying to designate his i am trying to designate that target such that a hyperbaric weapon can come

39:21fall on i am pressing the button the laser doesn't switch on so i am under fire i cannot retreat

39:29you have to understand the situation in which it's worked so if i follow all the standards

39:35i have that at least a 99 percent probability my product will work when he presses the button

39:40correct so so that is why that is the main thing that standards are there for

39:44right so this was a hard learning curve and even for future entrepreneurs within this space i would

39:51you know the basic advice i would give is always look towards standard as something that will make

39:57your product better don't look at it something that i have to pass you might pass the standard if

40:03you don't implement it in your production your product anyway will not work when it is required to

40:07work so you had a real life instance of this i have had i have my multiple instances over two three

40:13products initially till now i have done maybe around close to 50 products i have designed and

40:20commercialized in the defense space all the way as a company you mean as a company and now as an

40:25individual you know innovator if you look at me as an innovator i have taken close to about 50 different

40:3145 different products till now which we have commercialized and deployed it in various applications

40:38within the armed force i see and the initial five to ten products were a big you know learning experience

40:45because you you would not even imagine such situations which might present itself like i will

40:51tell you a very another very simple example see what happened was that when we supplied a certain product

41:00to for one of the aviation air force applications you know all of us assume that typically you know

41:09any kind of cooling fan or anything would you know be able to like most of your laptops cameras everything

41:15cooling fans work very well yeah and there is no issue you can just put a kind of a sheet to obstruct

41:22that also dust dust gets obstructed it works fine you would never be able to understand that you know

41:29say if it if a cooling fan is subjected to 50 degrees of continuous heat so in some places like bikaner and

41:37others the the motor inside the fan gets damaged so you have to provide cooling for the motor within the cooling fan

41:47okay see you get the irony of the entire thing right so but there are ways to do it you know foreign

41:54systems have these things in place and that is the other thing that i would like to get out you know in

42:00this is that you know within the armed forces itself in terms of end users the armed forces end users they

42:11have a lot of knowledge as to what are the systems what are the imported systems or legacy systems

42:18currently using which you which they might not be able to express it in terms of a technical way

42:24but if you interact with them they will be able to get that information out it is very and that is very

42:30crucial because of the fact that that helps you bypass some of your own you know it shortens the learning

42:36curve especially in things like this i wanted to therefore ask how do you try and tap into this huge

42:43knowledge pool that's available do you consciously work with veterans uh is that a part of the hiring

42:49strategy correct so we have uh we have two veterans now in our organization uh one colonel ashwini who

42:57is there in delhi who is an eme officer uh electromechanical engineer and we have another person from

43:04iaf also joined us okay uh see the reason being is that uh these these learnings which are there on the

43:13field are very critical because neither do we we are never exposed to actual field conditions so the

43:20only way we are able to actually understand uh what is required for the end user is from the end user

43:26themselves right so uh that is how we interact and not only with the armed forces any time we go to

43:32any of the armed units we interact with them in a very technical very exhaustive way so that is another

43:38thing that you know people make a mistake is that uh they feel that they because they might have you

43:44know have an engineering degree and they might have done some things like even myself you know

43:50uh stuff from iit and all that you you feel that you know you are you are technically superior

43:58but that is one thing in the defense uh segment is that you need to be very humble when you especially

44:04go to the end user because though you know the exact operational requirement yeah the men in uniform

44:10would always be ahead of the curve yes they are ahead of the curve they might not be able to express it in

44:16your technical method but if you capture the right information you will be able to utilize it in

44:22your system when you started this company i think you were the sole entrepreneur uh along the way your

44:28father also joined in now the father-son duo sort of shepherds the company yeah it's very common in

44:34legacy indian businesses but not so much in deep tech so i have to ask you what's the best part about

44:42doing a startup with your dad and what's the not so good part and also what would your answer be

44:47so uh see that that's where you perfectly captured that because normally it works out in such a way

44:53that the earlier generation starts the business and then the second generation takes it forward

45:01in my case i started the business and i'm i'm a i'm thought you know of course now because of

45:07being exposed in business i have got commercial acumen but when i started it off i was

45:12only at very very very technocrat technocrat and that works within certain ecosystems but if you

45:19look at the general you know when you come out into the world definitely that does not you know stand

45:25you need to have a lot of commercial sense and acumen that's where you know i when in 2017

45:32before we got our seed funding we had to commercialize and show that this technology is viable i needed some

45:38poc use cases we were not able to find people who would even adopt this and utilize it so i i had to get

45:46an experience uh in terms of connections in terms of at least some somebody would can set up a deal

45:53those kind of things structure and somebody who would not take money from me because i didn't have

45:58money to pay them so the best alternative for me was my dad he had a lot of experience and today

46:06he is of course considered one of the thought leaders in the drone space but yeah so he has

46:12helped me out i mean this company would not have reached this level fascinating what's the challenge

46:18what's the challenge when you are working with a parent so the challenge is always you know i would

46:23say it is there in every business it's not only for father son but in father son duro it gets a little

46:32more amplified where because there is also a personal element associated with it most of the

46:41discussions within the company also go back to home so there is a very you know it's a very blurry

46:47line there's no delineation between personal and personal and professional so that is one of the

46:52things which is there and i think the second thing is the opinions you know so um i would say this in

47:01a very humble way because i've learned from it see typically as younger uh people i'm i might look

47:09very old but i'm about 30 only as of today uh you have certain ideas which actually might not be right

47:17because somebody has experienced tried those things and has failed in it but that creates a

47:23difference of opinion initially then over time it gets so i would say you know if you are ever doing

47:28this thing with um you know with a more much more experienced person always remember they have

47:36more experience in a domain that you don't have so take it as a learning that reduces the amount of

47:42conflicts which are there awesome well venki thank you so much this was a very uh engrossing and

47:49elucidating conversation i'm glad that we could make this happen and uh wish you all the very best

47:55for thank you all of zupa's initiatives going forward thanks all right folks this concludes the last

48:01episode of mic'd up with india's defense trainees season one has come to an end but we will be back

48:07soon with another season so stay tuned

The Game-Changing Lesson from Operation Sindoor for Indian Defence Drone Tech | Venkatesh Sai | MUW

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