Inside JeM’s Digital Ter**r Arsenal | Expert Soumya Awasthi EXCLUSIVE

Watch ORF fellow Soumya Awasthi as she unpacks how Jaish-e-Mohammad has evolved its ter**r infrastructure using digital means -- leveraging social media, online gaming, cryptocurrencies, AI, and more. She draws attention to the lethal potential of AI in indoctrination, misinformation, and terror financing amid the backdrop of the Delhi Red Fort blast. Find out about the shifting radicalization process, funding methods, and the urgent need for a cohesive counter-strategy to combat these new-age threats.

#JeMTerror #DigitalFunding #DelhiRedFortBlast #AIThreat #SoumyaAwasthi #ORF #CounterTerrorism #IndiaSecurity #India

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Transcript

00:00So with us today is Soumya Vasti. She's a fellow at the Center for Security Strategy and Technology

00:15at the ORF Think Tank. Her work focuses on counter-terrorism, technology-driven threats

00:20and India's national security. Thank you so much, Soumya, for speaking with AsiaNet News

00:25on the Delhi Red Port blast incident and giving us a perspective on how technology is actually

00:32helping these terrorist organizations to fund themselves to have a greater influence

00:39in other countries as well. So first of all, I want to begin by talking about the shift in

00:45radicalization process. Earlier, we used to hear a lot about how people are getting radicalized

00:50in brick-and-mortar infrastructure like Madarsars or different other infrastructures.

00:55But now it is shifting more and more on digital platforms. If you can talk about that.

01:02Thank you, Heena, for having me on your show.

01:06Yes, radicalization methods have changed. It has become a little more, you know, expanded

01:13in its methods. Earlier, we used to hear about how Madrasas and Mosques are only responsible

01:20for radicalization. But now I am seeing a trend in last few years, maybe five years or six

01:27years when more and more people are getting radicalized through digital space. Now, if I

01:34talk about digital space, there are two broadly, two ways. One is through the, of course, use

01:39of social media. Because we, as the youth who is getting radicalized, and otherwise as well,

01:47youth is spending a lot of time on social media. And we go through those in short videos of

01:53politics from YouTube, or we go through Instagram Reels, and TikTok and Snapchat, I'm talking globally.

02:00So yes, these are some of the ways in which we are accessing information. Some of them are biased,

02:07you know, not aware completely about the background, history and story and facts, but they are picking

02:14up a small political issue and creating a story around it. So that has become a little bit of a

02:22challenge that people are listening to them and then also getting influenced ideologically.

02:28But that is one way. Then of course, in social media, there are other means you forward images,

02:35videos, doctored videos, fake voice notes, and you talk about all those ways in which people get

02:44attracted to your information. And then the third way that is slowly looking like a big challenge for

02:51India, especially is the use of online gaming platforms. So I keep talking about it at all

02:57platforms that how gaming, online gaming at the moment looks more like a financial scam portal, but it has

03:07more to it. It doesn't have only financial impact, but also people are using it for extremist ideologies,

03:16propaganda, they're using it for communication with the people who are looking like potential recruits.

03:23They are also creating these bots and modified mods, mod games in which people are only playing games,

03:33keeping in mind the conflict scenario in mind. So if jihad activities, they are doing a gun weapon training

03:42on online gaming platforms. A lot of these platforms are also helping people raise funds for terrorist activities.

03:49So these are some of the ways in which radicalization has taken a new shape in the world.

03:56Now, Samia, coming to funds, which you just mentioned, we all know that Jaisi Muhammad is being financially

04:03backed by Pakistan, but it is also sourcing its funds from diaspora and other people who actually

04:09support that kind of ideology after they are influenced by these training modules. So if you can talk about the

04:15funding of Jaisi Muhammad, how it is happening on a large scale with legitimate applications.

04:21Yeah, so we all know that the first one in this scheme of games was basically ISKP, which came up with a QR code

04:30on their magazine asking for zakat. So in the name of zakat, people are using these online platforms to make payments

04:40in the name of zakat. And sometimes Havala channel is also used in donations. So there are these small value

04:51wallet transfers, then there are informal remitters, and then charitable campaigns which happen. So Jaisi Muhammad

04:57has been one of the first one in the South Asian scenario or the Pakistani based terror group, which has been openly

05:07asking for donations on digital wallet, they have used SadaPay and other other platforms for, you know,

05:17collection of money. So because it helps them the plausibility of deniability. So if I am getting money,

05:26I can't say or you know, I will say that I just made a donation to a charitable fund, but I'm not making a

05:32terror funding. So that deniability exists, it makes things easy for people to move forward with terror

05:40financing. Other than the digital wallets, they are also coming up with methods like using dark web for

05:50exchange of, you know, your bank account details and extortion through dark web for the stolen credit

05:58card details. Again, taking you back to a little bit of gaming online gaming platform. There also

06:05sometimes people are asking for donations with regard to so they will make a story, a sorry story

06:12about themselves that I have cancer, for example, and I need money for treatment. And this is how the other

06:18player who is a potential recruiter, recruitee can be, you know, can get money out of this, this process.

06:29Another way in which they do is use of drug trafficking and combining it with cryptocurrencies

06:36and digital wallet. So a lot of times the drug becomes a source of earning rather than just,

06:45you know, doing drugs for indoctrination purposes. They are using drugs for selling and earning out of

06:52it. And then of course, drugs are illegal substance. So when you are purchasing something, you need to be

07:00discreet. And hence again, cryptocurrencies become easy way to do the transactions.

07:06Of course, most of it is being done digitally in order to evade the scrutiny of FATF. How can India, along

07:14with other partner countries of India, who India has close ties with, how can these countries come

07:20together to actually nab these terror operatives, these OGWs, these handlers, who are linked with

07:27Jaishu Mohamed?

07:28So, of course, there are multiple things that already are in place. And that is why we don't have

07:35legal permission of dealing in cryptocurrencies. That is why India has not legalized cryptocurrency

07:42business. And one of the reasons is because of the anonymity and the deniability that comes with

07:48transactions or via crypto. So that is one way then second is all these countries who are allied and

07:57bilateral partners with India, they have from time to time a working group, which exchanges data on how

08:04the transactions are taking place. And that is why when you see a lot of terror groups are busted or the

08:11operations where the kills happen. There also they are able to get support from the countries and friendly

08:19countries who are sharing their information and data intelligence with us. Apart from that, there are

08:27more strict laws which have come up with KYC procedures. So there it's not that it is not happening. The

08:34CERT team in India, which is the Computer Emergency Response Team, and the I4C team, they are all working

08:44on the ways in which cyber crime can be reduced. And that is why the Online Gaming Bill Act was also

08:53passed this year. Because a lot of financial crimes were happening via that, and gaming apps for betting,

09:00and then there was all these chit fund kind of scams which were running online. And sometimes we found

09:11the hands of the Chinese in these scams also. So that is why if you look at any act, it doesn't have

09:18only one reason behind it, it has multiple reasons. Now you must be hearing that Aadhar card is no more valid

09:26only as your identity proof. It's because in all the border areas, it has been observed that

09:33people are getting fake Aadhar cards made by paying sheer 100 rupees or 200 or less than 500 rupees.

09:40So to stop that, and if you have Aadhar card, you can open a bank account. If you have Aadhar card,

09:46you can open your digital wallet account. So to stop all these things, now slowly Government of India

09:52India is deciding that Aadhar card cannot be the only way to identify yourself. So yes,

09:57these are the ways in which we are working with the partner countries as well as within our country.

10:02Earlier we used to see cross-border terrorism, cross-border indoctrination, but now it is happening

10:08homegrown. And that is becoming an even more bigger challenge for us. People inside of our country are

10:15getting radicalized and then carrying out all of these terror attacks and linkages with the handlers,

10:22sitting in Turkey, sitting in Pakistan, Afghanistan. Yeah, so like I said that because Aadhar card is one

10:30document which was getting fake, so even ChatGPT is helping you make your own Aadhar card.

10:36And this is where people have used AI to create your Aadhar cards, fake Aadhar cards. And similarly,

10:45when you talk about the handlers, even if the terrorists are coming from outside, and in this

10:51case, we know that Pakistan has been sponsoring terrorism in Kashmir and in India. So the handlers

10:57who are presently in India, they are getting a lot of money in return for doing, supporting them.

11:04And they help people get these Aadhar cards made, the voter ID cards made or the PAN card. So that

11:11becomes a big challenge. You talked about Turkey, it's very important because a lot of people from

11:17India go to study in Turkey. And especially from Kashmir and from the southern part of India,

11:25it has been found that a lot of people are going and studying in Turkey, whether it is medical science

11:31or higher education in the humanities. So it is becoming a hub for education,

11:37for especially for, you know, Muslims, Muslim community. So that is one of the reasons to worry

11:46about that why they are choosing Turkey, because even in the Red Fort case, it was found that these

11:52suspects had gone to Turkey for education. And one of the suspects also had Chinese medical degree.

12:04Yes. So these countries are sheltering people who are more radicalized and have, you know,

12:12ideologically extreme views. So it becomes easy for them to go there. Because in India,

12:18people cannot exist in a democratic system with extreme ideologies, there can be challenges,

12:25people can suspect you for wrongdoings. So it becomes easy for them to travel to Turkey or to China

12:31to carry out their education. And hence, I would use your platform to recommend that why not ban certain

12:39countries degree as invalid, even if they want to go and study, but they can't get a job in India if they

12:45have degree from certain countries like Turkey in this case or Bangladesh or, you know, like you said,

12:54Chinese degree. So I think we have a list where we do list out countries and the degrees which are not valid

13:02from certain places. And we need to add Turkey in that list as well. Just mentioned creating, you know,

13:08some of these people creating Aadhaar cards from chat GPT. How much dangerous is AI in today's age?

13:15Because now we are seeing social media flooded with AI generated videos, images, most of them,

13:21majority of them are misleading.

13:23Yeah, AI is a big challenge. And every technology has goods and bads. And so does AI.

13:32Because even it is becoming a tool for a lot of misinformation and disinformation campaign.

13:39The information propaganda, information warfare is taking place through the use of AI.

13:44If you remember going back a little to of Sindhu period, when the operation was on, there was so

13:51many bots on Twitter, which were doing amplification of propaganda. There was a doctored video which was

13:59created of our foreign minister or of our Northern Army commander and of Prime Minister Modi, who are

14:07quarreling with each other. And they are saying that we will not do, you know, basically a sort of

14:12rejection to the idea of fighting against Pakistan. Similarly, a week or so back, our Vice Chief,

14:22Deputy Vice Chief General Ghai's video also came out where his audio was doctored. And interestingly,

14:28I was sitting in that conference where he was speaking and I know he did not say any of these

14:34words. So, you know, that's how AI is being used for doctoring and fabricating the videos,

14:40audios as well as sometimes you may be getting these random calls from people that your consignment

14:47has been caught on at the airport or somebody will fake as a police and say your son has been caught

14:56for drug peddling. And then they will make you speak to your son. And that son has a voice like your

15:03own son, but it's not actually your son. So that kind of deep fake voices are being used. Again,

15:10like I said, the propaganda part is playing a major role in indoctrination of the youth today. And that

15:18is why we need to be very vigilant on what kind of content we are consuming through social media,

15:25because AI for the terrorist organization is as scary as a nuclear weapon, I would say.

15:39Right.

15:39That, you know, they can do so much with AI that can be equivalent to a nuclear weapon.

15:45When you talk about information warfare, there is, and you have also written about it,

15:50there is an asymmetry between India and Pakistan in terms of information warfare. Do you think that

15:57India lacks this kind of strategic strength to counter narratives right after a major incident

16:06has occurred? And how can we improve on that?

16:11I think we don't lack strategic strength at all. We have that strategic strength,

16:16but it's just that we do not use it to the right cause or right way. We don't use it enough

16:24to counter these propagandas. So you know that we have these different, different ministries who have

16:31a strategic communication departments, but none of them are working in collusion. The need of the

16:38hour is that all these ministries communication department work together towards disseminate,

16:45you know, towards countering the dissemination of propaganda. And that has to be a regular process

16:53and not be asymmetric. Like everybody's working in their silos, not thinking that how it can impact.

16:59And given the fact that we live in this digital world, nothing can be done in silos. Everything is

17:06transnational, transboundary. So if a task for MEA is related to foreign affairs, you can't say that IB or

17:15you know, information broadcasting ministries role is restricted internally. It's going outward.

17:23So you have an overlap in the ministries. And hence, we need to have a fusion cell. That's what I call

17:30a fusion cell where all these ministries combine their team, make one strong team, which is regularly

17:37working 24-7 rather than being in event based and more reactive. Now it is time that you become more

17:44proactive, more, you know, practical and realist that this is what is more, you know, more challenging

17:54than just a conflict at the border. Like I say that today, if winning a war is enough to win a war,

18:02it is important to win your story as well. So perception management is something which becomes very

18:07important through countering of misinformation.

Inside JeM’s Digital Ter**r Arsenal | Expert Soumya Awasthi EXCLUSIVE | Delhi Red Fort Blast

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