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00:00there is nothing unique about playing a guitar or playing a distorted guitar or singing a melody
00:06there is only one thing inherently unique in all of that and that is me and my voice and my stories
00:12rock metal prog and everything in between welcome to this episode of talk and rock with meltdown
00:20don't forget to follow the audio only talking rock podcast on all podcast platforms and now
00:25it's time for today's conversation here's meltdown hey des good to see hopefully things are a little
00:31bit warmer and less snowy than uh than here where you are good to see you they're most certainly not
00:37i'll tell you that right now yeah where are you at i'm in new york okay yeah that's right you're
00:41you're from that whereabouts you're from in new york queens new york okay you're from right down
00:46in the city okay gotcha yeah i grew up in western new york and people always tell me they go uh you
00:51don't sound like you're from new york well western new york is like it's almost like a different
00:56country up there you know it's definitely a different different world yeah that is true
01:00did did you grow up going to a bunch of rock clubs and stuff in the city oh i most certainly did i grew
01:05up in the shadow of the city and that was just like my playground all the little venues at dot
01:10manhattan brooklyn queens long island everywhere that's where i lived now is cbgb's i never i was never
01:17able to get there was was that still open were you able to go there you know i closed when i was
01:21super super young but i actually did play there when i was 14 years old and i took the train to the
01:28city holding a marshall head in my hand and a guitar on the shoulder and i walked in there and i
01:34played at like 3 p.m in the afternoon and i was so young that i had to immediately leave the venue
01:40after i played oh yeah you couldn't i couldn't stay uh so i get to say i played it uh which is
01:46i guess fun yeah that's hysterical my my brother was 16 now it's like 22 or 23 and he was playing
01:52a bar same thing in buffalo and the owners wouldn't let him in the bar until they took to the stage you
01:56know i think that's just such like a weird legal fiction that we kind of all go along with that
02:02somehow you're allowed to be in a bar if you're a teenager but then you have to leave right when you're
02:07done playing music i think like someone just made this up 20 years ago and now we all abide by it
02:12yeah that's right so growing up in uh in new york like that um where did where did your influences
02:17come from did you uh did you grow up in a family that was musical did you discover it somewhere along
02:22the line no i was really like a lone wolf in the early days you know i i discovered music just by
02:27going to cd stores and browsing and looking at what was cool and whatever i brought home i brought home
02:32and that just sunk into my dna i was also very largely influenced by a very strong diy scene
02:38that was in new york city and long island at the times and musically i was really all over the place
02:43i was like a sponge i was taking it all in the one thing i know is that the music i always made was
02:48never the music that was uh trendy or that everybody else was doing very much to my detriment you know i
02:54wish i could have made music that people really went out to hear but whenever people showed up to shows
02:59i was playing they were there for a totally different reason so a lot of my uh early formative
03:04years have spent just kind of like striking out to nobody and you know um just listening to your
03:09music and stuff uh a few things come to mind uh you're gonna probably find this a little bit weird
03:14but uh there there's some aspect of dorothy in the stuff that you play and i don't know if you've
03:18ever heard that before i was listening to i'm like who does this remind me of dorothy but uh there's
03:23also some aspect of it uh being right here in the motor city of white stripes you know and so that's
03:28got to be that's got to be something that's in your wheelhouse correct for sure you know i think
03:32like those two artists represent things that are kind of immensely fuzzy and also intense
03:37and there's a sort of intensity that i always want to bring to the music and a certain personality
03:43that i hope always shines through yeah you say fuzzy that's that's interesting that that's kind
03:48of in your that that's in your dna and your music isn't it oh absolutely i think balancing walls of
03:53distortion in a way that's palatable that's a hard thing to do you know a lot of people can overdo it
03:58um but it's a fine line to walk to use to paint with that color but also have it come out and be
04:05like a very cohesive and beautiful song so who who does that well oh i mean the white stripes and
04:11jack white do that beautifully well uh queens the stone age does that beautifully well and then early
04:16days going as far back to like the who who had like immensely fuzzy tones or the kinks you know and
04:21they put it all in the context of really beautiful songs yeah and uh just when you say fuzzy i think
04:27of the fuzz lord scott holiday of course you know oh yeah for sure yeah i've seen those guys a bunch
04:32of times um but yeah i mean fuzz is kind of like a way of life there's many spectrums uh there's many
04:38colors on like the distortion spectrum you know what i mean and uh that's why i like to paint with a lot
04:42yeah and then of course your influence uh i mean obviously uh with your look and stuff it goes back to
04:48the 50s and 60s as well so you you're you're uh your musical tastes run the gamut doesn't it
04:52oh yeah for sure i love i love everything like it's so all over the place in a good way in a hard
04:59way when it comes to writing because you never know what's going to come out um i wish i could be a
05:03little bit more one though and focus sometimes but uh but no i really i'm just a music lover in every
05:09in every regard and are you one of these guys that uh i don't know you wake up in the middle of night
05:13and and and hum into your phone or pick up a guitar and just put something down that you thought
05:17of or how does that work yeah definitely i wake up in the middle of the night with like fully formed
05:22songs very often in my head and then you kind of have this struggle right you're like oh should i get
05:27out of bed and record this or will i remember it and you will never remember it you always think you
05:32have a chance of remembering it but you never will and you'll always regret it i also get a lot of
05:36ideas in the shower like i always say i think the shower deserves like 50 of publishing on every song
05:42ever written yeah that's great so so the the lightest song this land it was used in in borderlands
05:48four i think i'm explain this what is that oh borderlands four is a really big video game franchise
05:54um and they always have these giant opening cinematic sequences that feature a song so the
06:00very first one in 2009 was uh cage the elephants ain't no rest for the wicked and they always kind of
06:06look for things a little bit left of center that um played this like wild alien universe that they've
06:11created and it was a lot of fun to be tapped in to create the one for borderlands four so you don't
06:17strike me as a as a gaming guy do you play a lot of games no not at all oh uh yeah which is funny
06:23because like i think in a sense it gave me a little bit of a distance and an objectivity that i think was
06:28probably very helpful creatively and then uh you know i i i saw nobody too in the theaters but you
06:35covered uh johnny cash which seems like right in your wheelhouse and uh tell me tell me about that did
06:40you go watch that in the theaters no i haven't seen the movie yet actually really now see invite
06:45a song in a movie i'd be out there the first day i know it's so ridiculous i gotta i gotta go see it
06:50um but no they came to me and they said why don't you recover for the finale of this movie
06:54and they gave me two songs and they said they're gonna pick one one was like a frank sinatra song
06:59and the other was johnny cash and with both i had serious reservations because the frank sinatra song
07:04i was like how the hell can i des rockify this this is a real this is gonna be an uphill battle
07:10and then the second one was a song that's already been widely covered by rock bands like social
07:16distortion so it's been done before uh and it was very tough to figure out like how do i make it sound
07:23as if it was a des rock song written by johnny cash you know i mean that was really the goal and once i
07:28kind of figured out what that was then the seas just opened up and the whole thing poured out
07:33you know it's funny i don't know if you've seen this i've gotten this in my dms a lot but there's
07:37this band out there that that does uh i believe it's ring of fire and they they they mesh it up
07:41with uh with white zombie thunder kiss 65 have you seen that no i gotta check it out yeah i've gotten
07:47it in my dms a few times it's interesting when bands take that they were they were doing it live on
07:51stage in front of a crowd you know and then it's like and then they go into the ring of fire like
07:57it was but no no i i so so you don't even know where that was used in the movie i saw the movie like
08:02three or four months ago and i can't recall when it was used maybe in the credits or something i
08:06don't even know yeah they sent me like a rough cut of the scene of the movie uh that they wanted in
08:13to give me kind of a little bit of a inspiration um but no i haven't seen the final product yet
08:18yeah it was a good movie it was fun i i don't i don't think i ever saw nobody won and i kind of
08:22went in cold and i thought the movie was fun you know that's that's all you can ask for i suppose
08:26it's a wild ride man it's also crazy when you make a song like uh whether it's for borderlands
08:31four or for nobody too and you think wow this song just hits so hard there's nothing that can make
08:37this hit any harder and then you see it with the visual whether it's like a carnival shootout scene
08:42or like a crazy alien world and it's like wow this actually made this song hit harder when on the
08:49downbeat like an alien's head is blown off you know it's it's like pretty intense yeah so this year uh
08:55what do you have coming up i know you got you got the show april 18th here in uh ann arbor you'll
08:59be playing at the blind pig which by the way is kind of a historic place um man some some great
09:05bands have played there uh but what do you got going on besides that this year besides the touring
09:09yeah we got a tremendous amount of touring coming up we have the whole new album on deck as well for
09:14this year and yeah i've heard so many amazing things about that venue that i just really can't wait
09:19to get there and play there and the show is almost sold out so anybody who's listening make sure
09:23you grab your tickets yeah uh tell me about the record oh the record is one of the greatest
09:28things i've ever worked on uh i can't wait for everybody to hear it it is just brimming with so
09:34much passion and pathos and bringing it to life almost killed me in many different ways uh but i'm
09:41proud to say it's finally done mastered mixed everything off to the plant and now it's on its way out
09:47and so where did you record this record at we made it mostly at a place called mission sound in
09:53brooklyn new york and also a little bit at the power station in manhattan and uh we recorded it
09:58live as a band like really legit live no copy and pasting um nothing like that so that takes you here
10:05are the band playing it from beginning to end for better or for worse so when you do something like
10:11that and i always preface this by saying i'm not a musician you know i always hate when when these uh
10:16sports guys always talk about sports and they they get you know winded walking to the refrigerator
10:20i am not a musician so do you do you work with the band on these songs like dozens and dozens of
10:27times then you go into the studio and just do it yeah absolutely we workshop every element we'll play
10:32it over and over and over again and we'll get in there and we think we know exactly what we want to
10:36do and then for some reason it's just not working on tape like when you play it back it doesn't feel
10:41right and you're kind of adjusting and then before you know it you're on take 25 and everybody wants to
10:46kill each other and they want to leave and then that ends up being the magical take the one where
10:50everybody wanted to kill each other or the first take where you're kind of fumbling your way through
10:54the song ends up being the magical one yeah i think uh i want to say uh eric kretsch from stone temple
10:59pilots one time has told me that i think a creep was the second tape that second take that's what that
11:05was that was the one that you hear all the time wow yeah i mean there's just some magic to it and like
11:09you know you never know where that magic is going to come from and you can't even define it you know
11:14you can't even say what makes take two better than take seven it's just a gut feeling and that to me
11:20is also just like such an impressive statement about the power of music now is that where you
11:24kind of uh you kind of rely on the producer or maybe other people in the room because maybe you
11:29like take three and they like take seven how does that work well i mean at the end of the day it's kind
11:34of a creative dictatorship so i i enjoy that power very much you know and uh but no i have a lot of
11:40close and trusted confidants and friends and everybody does have a say especially when it
11:44comes to their performance but we worked with this amazing producer joe ciccarelli who funny
11:49enough you know did a lot of the white stripes albums that we were just kind of talking about
11:53and referencing and uh you know he's got an amazing trusted ear and i only brought him in the room
11:57because i immensely respect his opinion and what kind of stuff uh went into this record as far as
12:02like influences maybe life events uh anything like that i mean there's a lot of significant life
12:09events that are molded into the dma of this album but also it's very much just in the spirit of
12:15taking a giant step forward as an artist you know i feel like i've said and done a lot of things that
12:20i've wanted to say and do over the last couple years and now this is very much a step into a new
12:24era and to make the absolute best most compelling music i can possibly make in a landscape that i think
12:31is just like increasingly stale and generic yeah i was going to ask you it's like what do you think is
12:36the next step for you to to reach that next level and i guess dropping this record would be the first
12:41step i suppose definitely man i mean just to make something that i think is is undeniably real and
12:47undeniably authentic to who i am as an artist again for better or for worse you know i want you to hear
12:53this album and i want you to say you know i love it i love it so much or i hate it i want you to have
13:00any like middle ground like huh sounds like uh this other artist that i know that to me would be the
13:05worst case scenario and by the way earlier when i was talking because i know that you're really a
13:10guy who really wants to make your own path and sound like your own artist i just i heard elements
13:14of this kind of stuff and let's face it in 2026 rock and roll has been around for you know 75 years
13:19or something it's hard to find something that's completely new and different but you do take
13:24elements from other artists don't you oh absolutely i mean there is nothing unique about playing a guitar
13:30or playing a distorted guitar or singing a melody there is nothing inherently unique there is only
13:36one thing inherently unique in all of that and that is me and my voice and my stories there's no other
13:43person who's lived my life or who will sing with my vocal cords and that's the thing that i'm always
13:48kind of leaning into the most you know and using everything else as these beautiful tools like the
13:53guitar and the drums and everything you know i'm so standing on the shoulders of giants with respect to
13:59the instrumentation and the production so i want to take everything they've done and tap into that
14:03same energy without recreating it you know what do you what do your what do your parents think of
14:09your career uh i mean i think it's confusion mostly you know i think it's so foreign to them like
14:16we didn't know anybody in music growing up i didn't have anybody who i could talk to i just had to
14:22kind of figure out everything myself and just make every single mistake somebody could ever make uh
14:29in in the most embarrassing way as possible you know just kind of fumbling my way through having
14:34the final product in my head of who i wanted to be and what i wanted to do on stage but having no idea
14:40how to get there yeah it's kind of the same thing with me i didn't grow up in a musical family my dad went
14:45to work you know like everyone else's dad 40 hours a week and came home and my dad would have never done
14:50some of the things i've done in my life you know i just went and watched avatar a few weeks ago and
14:54i'm like my dad would have never done this 20 years you know uh you know before my age let alone
14:59at his age you know it's like it's just wild it's kind of like a different generation that we've grown
15:04up in oh for sure i mean i also had so many um just having accessibility to venues in new york city
15:11like i just had resources available to me that weren't available to my parents to pursue my passions
15:17and my dreams i'm very fortunate for that yeah you know growing up in new york city like i said
15:21i haven't spent much time in new york city but i did grow up in you know buffalo and i've lived 30
15:25years here in detroit and there's a there's a certain grittiness to it that um you know that
15:30new york has as well and it kind of bleeds through in your music doesn't it oh yeah man i mean
15:35i've had some crazy shows in buffalo i remember playing this one place maybe you know the name of
15:38it but it's like a complex with three different rooms and i was in the basement obviously the
15:43smallest possible room and they had a pipe up top a plumbing pipe and obviously that's like the
15:49lowest hanging fruit for somebody to grab onto and swing into the crowd but they kind of uh wanted to
15:55preempt that so they covered it in broken glass and it was it's like the most dangerous thing you
16:00could possibly do it's also the most buffalo thing you could possibly do and i remember jumping up
16:04during the show and slicing my head open on this broken glass and i was like there is a a grittiness
16:11to this part of the state that i think is very much mirrored in some of the places that i spent
16:15my time as a kid and uh yeah i mean like that's just such a crazy a crazy thing i even forgot where
16:22where we started with me telling the story but yeah buffalo is crazy no just the whole grittiness of
16:27like where you grew up where i grew up and stuff it's like you know there's certain parts of the
16:31country i probably couldn't live in because it just wouldn't it just wouldn't be me it just wouldn't
16:35be real and i think you're kind of the same way oh yeah 100 i mean i love seeing the whole
16:40country i love getting out there but like the tri-state area of new york city is my home and
16:44it always has been and it always will be yeah and um you know speaking of uh here in detroit though
16:49you you were you played riff fest a couple years ago that was a fun day a nice afternoon thousands
16:55of people watching you on stage i don't know if you even recall that show oh of course i remember
16:59it vividly because there was a ski slope next to the venue and my bass player and i decided that it
17:04would be a good idea to go for a hike before the show so we walked up this giant ski mount
17:08all the way to the top when we got to the top we realized we were on stage in like 35 minutes so
17:13we ran down this hill like very awkwardly and i was in leather pants and a leather jacket and then
17:17we ran right on the stage um so yeah i remember it very well by the way i i think that is that
17:22you're right it is a ski slope but i think it used to be a dump a garbage dump i think that's what
17:28happens here in michigan we make the dumps in the ski slopes that's also very new york and it's
17:32grittiness so i appreciate that well i'll tell you what des we'll let you fly here uh any word by the
17:37way when the record is going to drop uh soonish soonish when the weather gets a little less
17:44snowy and cold a new album will be on its way and that sounds like a riddle but it's not
17:49well i'll tell you what uh april 18th and ann arbor looking forward to seeing you at that uh historic
17:55venue and uh safe travels stay warm and thank you for your time thank you my man take care
18:00check out talking rock with meltdown on all podcast platforms and wrif.com
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