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NewsTranscript
00:00Hello and welcome.
00:05You are watching Middle East Matters live here on France 24.
00:08I'm Nadia Massey.
00:10In this week's programme, we discuss Iraq's once-thriving Jewish community.
00:15Now all but consigned to the history books.
00:18During the First World War...
00:20About a third of the population of Baghdad was Jewish, but in the 1940s...
00:25Everything changed.
00:26Anti-Semitic attacks, pogroms, Jewish men publicly...
00:30Hung this in the context of anti-Semitism in Europe, Nazism and...
00:35...establishment of Israel in 1948.
00:38Well, we will in a moment look more closely...
00:40...at Iraq's Jewish history and what efforts there are to preserve...
00:45...what remains.
00:46But first, France 24's Shirley Sitbon is with me here in this...
00:50...studio.
00:50Hi, Shirley.
00:51Hello.
00:51Look, you've been looking at a trial that is...
00:55...happening here in Paris at the moment.
00:56It's a case brought by the descendants of Iraqi...
01:00...Jews against the French government.
01:01Now they argue France has been using their...
01:05...home in Baghdad and as an embassy for 50...
01:10...years and they say actually France hasn't been paying them...
01:13...the proper amount of rent.
01:15It's a rather complicated story.
01:16Just explain to us then what it's all about.
01:18Yes, and actually France...
01:20...agrees on this part.
01:21They are living in their...
01:22...in their home in Baghdad and they are not paying...
01:25...them any rent, but France says it has reasons to do so.
01:27So let's start by looking at...
01:30...the images of the French embassy in Baghdad.
01:33The images have been shown...
01:35...and you can see them here.
01:36There's a French flag.
01:37It's written on the poster.
01:39This is the French...
01:40...embassy in Baghdad...
01:42...when there are holiday greetings.
01:44This is...
01:45...what you see.
01:46This home, this house...
01:48...but in fact...
01:49...this home...
01:50...is a loot at home.
01:51It was taken.
01:52Well, there was a family who used to live there.
01:55And who still officially owns the house.
01:57And you can see these images of the time, the date...
02:00...when this house was built.
02:01Like frozen in time.
02:03The 1930s, 19...
02:05...that's when the family built and lived there.
02:08But then they had to flee.
02:10Like 135,000 other Iraqis who have...
02:15...had to flee.
02:15Why?
02:15Because there was growing antisemitism.
02:18There was violence persecution.
02:20And the Farhoud.
02:21You can see on these images...
02:23...the family who had to leave the Laoi...
02:25...two brothers, Ezra and Qaduri.
02:28And these are the images...
02:30...of the embassy today.
02:31We'll go back to that.
02:32Let's look at the images.
02:34There are just two pictures.
02:35Not many images of the attack of the Farhoud.
02:38Pogroms carried out in...
02:40...June 1941.
02:41This image was taken before the Farhoud.
02:44It's...
02:45It's an antisemitic riot.
02:46At the time Nazi Germany had an influence in Iraq...
02:49...they spread...
02:50...Nazi propaganda, antisemitic propaganda.
02:52And this image we're seeing now is after the...
02:55...the Farhoud.
02:55This is a mass grave.
02:58179 Jews were killed.
03:00In those attacks just two days.
03:03And then...
03:05...in 1940s.
03:05Years later, Israel was created.
03:07Some people had already fled Iraq.
03:09And now...
03:10...in 1948, when Israel was created, Iraq said to the Jewish people...
03:13...there was growing discrimination and said...
03:15...you have a year to leave our country...
03:17...but you'll no longer be Iraq...
03:20...and you'll leave your belongings behind.
03:22And after that, Iraq passed another law...
03:25...saying that all the belongings of the people who left...
03:27...were now state belongings.
03:29Do not belong...
03:30...to those families and they can never return.
03:33But the Laoi family...
03:35...it still had family in Iraq living in the house.
03:37So the house was still theirs.
03:39That's...
03:40That's why they were able to rent the house...
03:42...to France...
03:43...for the embassy.
03:45The ideal tenant for them...
03:47...because they believed they would pay rent...
03:49...the house would be...
03:50...but in fact, after a decade, France stopped paying rent...
03:54...because the Ba...
03:55...the South Party came to power...
03:57...and at that time, Saddam Hussein...
04:00...and officials in Iraq told France...
04:01...you don't have to pay rent to this family...
04:03...it's ours now...
04:04...all these...
04:05...the belongings of Jews...
04:06...no longer belong to the Jews...
04:07...and so France accepted...
04:10...to pay just 10% of its rent...
04:12...and no longer pay the family...
04:14...and...
04:15...and that's why...
04:16...50 years later...
04:17...this has been taken to court...
04:18...of course the family brought this up...
04:20...with France many times...
04:22...but there was no response...
04:23...so now they're taking it to court.
04:24Okay.
04:25So this is a court case...
04:26...happening here in France...
04:28...at Shirley...
04:29...and look, the French...
04:30...the foreign ministry says...
04:31...to the family...
04:32...well the argument...
04:33...that they're going to make in court...
04:34...is...
04:35...you shouldn't be...
04:37...accusing us of a problem here...
04:39...actually...
04:40...this trial should be taking place...
04:42...in...
04:43...Iraq.
04:44Yes, that's what there are...
04:45...arguing...
04:46...and actually...
04:47...there was no lawyer...
04:48...for the foreign ministry...
04:49...in court last week...
04:50...it was the advisor of the court...
04:52...who said...
04:53...well...
04:54...this house...
04:55...is in a...
04:55...Iraq...
04:56...this is Iraqi law...
04:58...it doesn't apply...
04:59...I mean...
05:00...he advised...
05:00...the court...
05:01...to say...
05:02...to say it's...
05:03...not responsible...
05:04...for this case...
05:05...and that...
05:05...this should be argued...
05:06...in Iraq...
05:07...and he said...
05:08...it's not impossible...
05:09...that an Iraqi court...
05:10...will take this...
05:11...and give a decision...
05:12...on this matter...
05:13...now what was the reaction...
05:14...of the family...
05:15...and its lawyer...
05:16...when this happened...
05:17...it's several lawyers...
05:18...well...
05:19...that's just...
05:20...propos...
05:20...monstrous...
05:21...ridiculous...
05:22...to put it mildly...
05:23...the lawyer explained...
05:24...that the family...
05:25...can't even...
05:25...go to Iraq...
05:26...it's illegal...
05:27...for Jews to go there...
05:28...they cannot do it...
05:29...it will be anyway...
05:30...too dangerous...
05:30...even if it was possible...
05:31...and...
05:32...no lawyer...
05:33...they contacted...
05:34...which were suggested...
05:35...by...
05:35...and the French...
05:36...embassy...
05:37...and the French...
05:38...foreign minister...
05:39...foreign office...
05:40...accepted...
05:40...to take this case...
05:42...so...
05:43...we can listen...
05:44...to what...
05:45...and actually...
05:46...now it's getting...
05:47...momentum...
05:48...and...
05:49...the Figaro...
05:50...newspaper said...
05:50...was quoting...
05:51...the lawyer of the family...
05:52...saying that...
05:53...stealing Jewish property...
05:54...is now made possible...
05:55...and done...
05:56...with the complacency...
05:57...la complaisance...
05:58...the...
05:59...you know...
06:00...it's done...
06:00...with the green light...
06:01...of the French...
06:02...foreign office...
06:03...that's what his quote...
06:05...now let's listen...
06:06...to...
06:07...the grandson...
06:08...of Ezra...
06:09...Lowy...
06:10...who talked to us...
06:11...about what he thought...
06:12...of this situation...
06:13...his name is...
06:14...Philip...
06:15...and...
06:16...some...
06:17...france...
06:19...is using...
06:20...
06:20...an Iraqi law...
06:22...passed...
06:23...specifically...
06:24...to punish Jews...
06:26...to justify...
06:27...using a house...
06:28...owned by Jews...
06:29...
06:30without paying the owners, there's shameless.
06:35What's depravity here?
06:36This is the government position.
06:39It doesn't...
06:40Feel shame and humiliation.
06:42A G7 nation, it stands for human rights.
06:45That uses Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité as a national...
06:50Motto.
06:51This is what we call in English, gaslighting.
06:54Deliberately twisted...
06:55Reality.
06:56To create an insane reality.
06:59That's exactly...
07:00What the French government is trying to do here.
07:03It's...
07:04It's...
07:05It does not make any sense.
07:07So, of course, Delawi and the Kazan...
07:10We'll be following this next week when the court decides whether it's competent to...
07:15handle this case.
07:16Everyone's waiting.
07:17It's also watched by the descendants of many...
07:20Iraqi Jews.
07:21And also, you know that at the time, from the 30s to the 70s...
07:25800,000 Jews had to flee and leave Arab countries...
07:30And many of them, their descendants, are looking at the decision next week.
07:34All right.
07:35Thank you very much, Shirley Sitbon, for us there.
07:36And as I said a bit earlier on, we are now going to zoom out.
07:40And look at Iraq's rich Jewish history more broadly.
07:43And for that, I'm pleased to welcome...
07:45Welcome to the programme, Dr Omar Mohamed.
07:47He's a professor of Middle East History at Science...
07:50Du Bois University here in Paris.
07:51Hello to you, and thanks for speaking to us.
07:55Thank you for having me, and it's really important that...
08:00We are talking about this topic.
08:02One of the forgotten topics of Iraq...
08:05But I'm glad it's back to the surface.
08:07Yeah, and I'm really pleased that we're inviting you on to talk about it there.
08:10And you're something of an expert on the Jewish history of Iraq.
08:13And I mentioned that statistic earlier on that...
08:15A third of the population of Baghdad during the First World War was Jewish.
08:20And not something that I don't think many people knew.
08:22I certainly didn't know that until I looked into this story.
08:24So just...
08:25Paint a picture for us first of all.
08:27What did that Jewish community look like at that time when it...
08:30It was flourishing.
08:31What kind of sectors did people work in?
08:34How integrated were...
08:35How are they with the Arab Muslim population of the city?
08:40Well, to start with, the Jewish community in Iraq is one of the most...
08:45Ancient communities in the country.
08:47Iraq is a very important...
08:50A space for Judaism.
08:52The Babylonian diaspora...
08:54The Babylonian diaspora...
08:55Is one of the most important in the region.
08:58Jewish community...
09:00Americans in Baghdad...
09:01Let's pray.
09:02Please...
09:03Let's draw out...
09:05of over 40% of the population of Baghdad, they contributed.
09:10To the music, daily life, culture, economy.
09:15In politics, Iraq had its first ever appointed Jewish minister.
09:20For finance, many other personalities in fact created.
09:25Or established the Iraqi trade with India, we still have until now.
09:30The Sasan family in Kalakuta in India, thanks to the Iraqi Jewish.
09:35Family.
09:36Others were in schools, they established.
09:40In fact, the earliest systematic schools were established.
09:45By Rima Khaddouri and the Khaddouri family.
09:50In Baghdad, in Mosul, we had a Jewish community in.
09:55Southern Iraq in Basra as well.
09:57We also had probably people never here.
10:00Of the existence of the Jewish community in a city that is often known.
10:05Just when we talk about the rise of terrorism in Iraq, which is the city of.
10:10Al-Lujah still has one of the oldest synagogues in Iraq.
10:13We have in Ambar.
10:15There was an ancient Jewish community.
10:20Unfortunately, all of that almost all of a sudden disappeared.
10:25from the country after the rise of anti-Semitism.
10:30We have been talking about the pogroms and the systematic attacks against the Jewish community.
10:35in Iraq.
10:36Right.
10:37That was the 1940s, wasn't it?
10:38That was the 1940s when things began to change.
10:40in Iraq.
10:41So just give us a sense, a picture of what was happening in the.
10:451940s, the geopolitical context and the Iraqi context.
10:49Well.
10:50Since the rise of Nazi and Nazis in Germany.
10:55the Iraqi government at that time began.
11:00We are establishing connections with the Nazis and the Nazis have been.
11:04We are establishing connections with the Nazis and the Nazis have been.
11:05have had influence over the way the Iraqi government at that time began.
11:10The king himself had interactions with Hitler.
11:13It started growing.
11:14It started growing.
11:15The Israeli kind of sense of the Jew and the anti-Semitism.
11:20It was also through the Germans who worked in Iraq.
11:24There were.
11:25many attempts before even the pogrom itself took place against the.
11:30Jews.
11:31Many of the.
11:32senior.
11:33members of the Jewish community.
11:35of Iraq, whom I met with.
11:36I recorded their testimonies.
11:38Except.
11:39You.
11:40You.
11:41You.
11:42You.
11:43You.
11:44You.
11:45You.
11:46You.
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11:57You.
11:58You.
11:59You.
12:00You.
12:01You.
12:02You.
12:03You.
12:04You.
12:05You.
12:06You.
12:07You.
12:08You.
12:09You.
12:10You.
12:11You.
12:12You.
12:13You.
12:14You.
12:15You.
12:16You.
12:17You.
12:18You.
12:19You.
12:20You.
12:21You.
12:22Well, to be honest, it's a very sad reality, and it's often very sad.
12:27We have to talk about numbers when it comes to Iraqi Jews.
12:30As the number suggests...
12:32Only in Baghdad, there were over 159.
12:371,000 in Baghdad.
12:39We have probably...
12:42Probably now less than three to four Iraqi Jews who are very old.
12:47There is no one left of the Iraqi Jewish community.
12:52Of Iraq, unfortunately.
12:53And that is due to all that systematic...
12:57...deportation that happened.
12:59This is something that...
13:02...must be also discussed in light of...
13:04There were many attempts, many requests...
13:07...of Iraqi Jews who wanted to reclaim their Iraqi nationality.
13:11But there is...
13:12There is no law in Iraq...
13:13...a grant or cancel the revocation of the Iraqi...
13:17...of Iraqi citizenship again.
13:18There are...
13:19There were many attempts to also revive the Iraqi...
13:22...Jewish heritage in Iraq.
13:25But it always is...
13:27with political difficulties, political instability in the country.
13:32Which makes it really very difficult to even discuss this topic in...
13:37In real life.
13:37And look, if I can just ask you a personal question, you're from most...
13:42That's a city in Iraq, you know, associated really tragically now with the Islamic State group.
13:47In fact, you used to publish anonymously about what was happening in Mosul at the time under this...
13:52The pseudonym, the Mosul I.
13:54Today, though, as you've been talking about today...
13:57One of your big focuses is on the Jewish heritage of Mosul.
14:02You're not of Jewish descent yourself.
14:04Can I just ask why this is a particular...
14:07Well, I mean, I don't have to be Jewish to care about...
14:12In fact, it is very important to...
14:16When we discuss...
14:17When we discuss diversity, we also discuss inclusion.
14:20In Iraq, we have diversity.
14:22It's very beautiful, but diversity without inclusion is not complete.
14:27But Iraq's Jewish history and heritage is integral to the Iraqi identity.
14:32Without which we cannot create a collective narrative of co-existence.
14:37Existence and tolerance.
14:38And it's very important that the...
14:42The coming generations of Iraq will know about the Jewish heritage.
14:46I did not know...
14:47I did not even know that there were Jews in Iraq until...
14:52I found out on my own many, many, many years later.
14:57It is very important also to establish, especially in a country like Iraq...
15:02that experienced the devastation of radicalization and terrorism to...
15:07this time tolerate each other and to accept.
15:12the existence of the other.
15:15We have communities that represent...
15:17the Christianity.
15:18Very ancient.
15:19We have Muslims.
15:20We have...
15:21Sabians.
15:22We have the Yazidis who experienced the terrifying...
15:27genocide by ISIS...
15:29by Daesh.
15:30I think it's...
15:32time that we bring every element of our society together.
15:36And this is why...
15:37we...
15:38back in...
15:392021...
15:402022...
15:412023...
15:42launched the project to revive the Jewish heritage of Mosul...
15:45where we documented...
15:47the testimonies...
15:48the testimonies of the living members of that community...
15:52collected...
15:54archives...
15:55documentation...
15:56in order to bring...
15:57back...
15:58a thriving...
15:59society...
16:00and community...
16:01where...
16:02how...
16:02harmony...
16:03and tolerance...
16:04are the...
16:05identity...
16:06identity...
16:07of...
16:07this community.
16:08Dr Omar Mohamed...
16:09there's so much more I'd like to ask you about...
16:11about...
16:12the Jewish community of Iraq...
16:13but unfortunately...
16:14we are out of time.
16:15I appreciate...
16:16you though.
16:17speaking to us today...
16:18here on Middle East Matters.
16:19Thank you very much.
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