- 2 hours ago
Category
📺
TVTranscript
00:00This is Dark Allergy, which I consider the most important work of my life.
00:30Over time, it occurred to me what a magnificent thing it would be if as many of the mothers would participate in portraying themselves at the moment that they learned of their loved one's death.
00:48My baby.
00:55There is a hole in a mother's heart when her child is gone.
01:00Because they are part of our physical being.
01:07If it's a war, or if it's Pan Am 103, or if it's September 11, the picture, the aftermath is always the same.
01:16This.
01:20Pan Am Flight 103 crashed into the Scottish village of Lockerbie.
01:24270 people, most of them Americans.
01:27It was the worst terrorist attack on an airline ever.
01:30We have no knowledge of how this happened.
01:34We're trying to find out.
01:36It was an attack on America.
01:37Watch crime scene in history.
01:39There were a thousand pieces of evidence.
01:40My daughter hadn't just died in an accident, but had been brutally murdered.
01:44They killed our children.
01:45To be lied to for 30 years.
01:47I think the U.S. government had an agenda.
01:49Reagan is the biggest terrorist in the world.
01:52If it's up to our government, we might not ever know the truth.
01:56Nothing is what it seems in the Lockerbie story.
02:02This particular phase of our search for the truth is almost complete.
02:20That is a tremendous relief.
02:21And that's the upside of the decision by the judges to deliver their verdicts so soon.
02:27The court that has heard 84 days and 3 million words of evidence
02:32is ready for the final day of Britain's biggest mass murder trial.
02:37Abdul Basset Ali Al-Megrahi, 48, and Laman Khalifa Fima, 44,
02:42were both accused of planting the fatal bomb in a series of luggage transfers.
02:47The prosecution over nine months called over 200 witnesses
02:49with 10,000 pages of testimony pressing its case that these men were Libyan terrorists.
02:57The evidence, even though it was circumstantial,
03:02we thought it was very convincing.
03:07The key issues in evidence were Mr. McGrahi's role in the security services in Libya,
03:14his use of false identities and his presence in the airport in Malta in the morning
03:24that the suitcase containing the bomb was ingested in the flight.
03:29And Mr. McGrahi's connections with Mr. Bollier, the owner of Mabel Limited,
03:35who the court concluded had manufactured the timing device that detonated the bomb.
03:41As far as FEMA was concerned,
03:46he was the Libyan Arab Airlines manager in Malta.
03:53FEMA supposedly provided him with a luggage tag
03:56that McGrahi put on a suitcase aboard a flight to Frankfurt
04:01to go on to London and Pan Am 103.
04:04McGrahi couldn't have gotten that suitcase in the system without FEMA's help.
04:15The prosecution admits its case is entirely circumstantial.
04:20It claims it is tight enough to prove murder beyond reasonable doubt.
04:25However, some of the evidence was contentious.
04:28Bollier appeared to recant his previous testimony.
04:33Now, he's not so sure.
04:35A fragment of circuit board was from the time, as he said,
04:39he sold to the Libyan intelligence service.
04:41He just seemed untrustworthy.
04:45Tony Gauchy, the man who had a clothing store in Malta,
04:49is significant because he is the one who can identify McGrahi.
04:53But he had changing recollections of the suspect.
04:58His testimony just didn't seem to stand up.
05:03But we also came up with critical evidence
05:08from a double agent working at the airport.
05:14Abdel-Majid Jaka is the Supergrass,
05:16billed as the Lockerbie trial's star witness.
05:19Abdel-Majid told the court
05:23how Libyan intelligence planned the bombing
05:26and that the two accused were fully involved.
05:29Today, he was a poor witness for the prosecution.
05:34I remember there being quite a laugh
05:37amongst the people that were watching the evidence
05:39just because he was just so, he just seemed to be crazy.
05:42It was like just watching a fantasist
05:44being given 20 minutes to speak in an uncontrolled way
05:50about their fantasies.
05:57The lack of credible evidence
06:00was what converted me to realizing
06:02the two accused men
06:04clearly could have had nothing to do with it.
06:06I felt very apprehensive before their verdict.
06:11But based on the evidence I heard,
06:13I believed we had the right guys.
06:16We waited for the judges
06:18to come onto the bench
06:20to deliver their verdict.
06:23We had absolutely no idea
06:24what was going to happen.
06:26I believed the evidence
06:28in its totality
06:30made it so compelling
06:32even though there was no smoking gun.
06:36I can remember
06:37holding Phil Reid's hand.
06:39We were sitting next to each other
06:40and I can remember just
06:42we probably squeezed each other extra hard.
06:46At 11 a.m.,
06:47the judges in their robes
06:48sat behind the bench.
06:50As they pronounced
06:50Abdel Bassett al-Megrahi
06:52guilty of murder,
06:53there was a sudden gasp.
06:58Then, as they announced
06:59Lamine Fima was not guilty,
07:01a second gasp.
07:02I thought they would both
07:11be sent home not guilty.
07:13The shock of the verdict initially
07:16was so great,
07:17I collapsed.
07:24Many people are left to wonder
07:25how one of the accused
07:27could be guilty
07:28and the other not.
07:31Tahima's lawyer declared
07:32there was no evidence
07:33he was at Malta Airport
07:34on the day the bomb
07:35was allegedly loaded
07:36and still less
07:38that he was aware
07:38of being part of a bomb plot.
07:41The judges apparently agreed.
07:43It seemed odd the case
07:47was against both men
07:48that one of them
07:50should not be proven
07:52to have been involved.
07:54I think that shocked
07:55a lot of people.
07:58My heart broke
07:59when Mr. Fima
08:00was allowed to leave
08:01the courtroom
08:02because clearly
08:03that bomb could not
08:04have gotten on the plane
08:05without his assistance.
08:09And in the case of McGrahi,
08:11the judges obviously felt
08:13that despite some
08:14of the inconsistencies
08:15in the evidence,
08:17he could still be convicted.
08:18It's been a day
08:21of conflicting emotions,
08:23delight at seeing
08:24at least one conviction,
08:25but anger
08:26that the sentence
08:27isn't longer.
08:29It was such a short sentence
08:31because a life sentence
08:32in Scotland
08:32is 20 years.
08:34And it's 20 years
08:36for all of your victims.
08:37So we were horrified
08:39that this was supposed
08:40to bring justice
08:41to our loved ones.
08:43The verdict had a whiff
08:46of diplomatic compromise
08:48about it.
08:50That's the taint
08:51that hangs over
08:53everyone's minds
08:54about this case.
09:13By finding McGrahi guilty,
09:17we believe
09:18that vindicated
09:19our findings
09:20that this was
09:21a Libyan government operation.
09:25This to me meant
09:26this was ordered
09:28by Gaddafi.
09:29Even though
09:29that never came to court,
09:31it vindicated us.
09:35This evening,
09:36Khalifa FEMA
09:36headed for Libya.
09:38Al-McGrahi
09:38stayed behind bars
09:40and the quest
09:41for the truth
09:42goes on.
09:43This case is
09:47very polarised.
09:49I worked as a researcher
09:50with McGrahi's lawyers.
09:53I've been involved
09:53in the case
09:54for about 30 years.
09:56There's very much
09:56two different camps.
09:59One camp believes
10:01that justice was done
10:02at Camp Zeist
10:03to the extent
10:04that McGrahi
10:05was convicted.
10:07And then there are others
10:08who are very sceptical
10:09of the McGrahi conviction,
10:10in fact, believe
10:11that he was wrongly convicted.
10:13and believe
10:13that the suspects
10:15actually lie outside
10:17of Libya,
10:19in Iran,
10:21and a radical
10:23Palestinian group.
10:28Do you feel
10:29McGrahi is guilty?
10:31That's a very difficult question
10:36to answer.
10:37I have a lot of unease
10:40about information
10:41that I know
10:42is out there,
10:43but I'm not able
10:44to get sight of it
10:45for reasons
10:45of national security.
10:48Until access
10:49to those
10:49can be gained,
10:51I think the controversy
10:52will continue.
10:53So for many people
10:55after the trial,
10:56there are even more
10:57questions
10:58rather than less.
11:00of the people
11:16This is the infamous
11:17filing cabinet
11:17you were talking about?
11:18That's the infamous
11:18filing cabinet.
11:19It's all full of
11:20Lockerbie stuff.
11:22So this is 35 years
11:24of work?
11:24Yes.
11:26Sadly,
11:27many of the people
11:27who have helped
11:28so much
11:28over 35 years
11:29are no longer with us.
11:34The FBI in America
11:36said publicly
11:37that there could have been
11:39no case brought
11:40against the Libyans
11:41had it not been
11:43for a fragment
11:44of circuit board
11:45that was recovered
11:46from the wreckage.
11:50PT35B
11:50was discovered
11:52in the scattered debris,
11:54quite some time
11:55after Pan Am 103
11:56came down
11:57and quite a long
11:59distance from Lockerbie.
12:01For a lot of people
12:02that already flagged
12:03question marks
12:04about its provenance.
12:08When I was working
12:09on the McGrahi Appeal
12:12as a researcher,
12:14I developed the evidence
12:15on the circuit board.
12:16I spoke to the relevant
12:17experts.
12:19There are a number
12:20of anomalies
12:21concerning PT35B
12:24concerning its provenance
12:25that strongly suggest
12:28that it was a plant.
12:33PT35B
12:34is a perfect optical copy
12:37of a Meebo circuit board,
12:39but it was made
12:40by a different technology.
12:44The copper was coated
12:45with pure tin,
12:47not with tin-lead mixture.
12:49We have material prepared
12:55by bona fide academic institutions,
12:58two of them,
12:59who reviewed the technology
13:01used to make the fragment
13:02called PT35B,
13:04and they confirmed
13:05that it was plated
13:06with pure tin,
13:08not with tin-lead mixture.
13:09And therefore,
13:14if it was made
13:14in any commercial
13:16enterprise at all,
13:17must have been made
13:19after 1988.
13:21Nobody in the industry
13:23was using pure tin
13:24back in 88.
13:28So do you believe
13:29that PT35B
13:30is a fake?
13:31Yes.
13:33Who planted it?
13:34I don't know.
13:40That piece of evidence
13:41has been under scrutiny
13:42by the trial,
13:44by the Criminal Cases
13:45Review Commission
13:46on a number of occasions.
13:48And the conclusion
13:49at the end
13:50is that there is not
13:51any weight
13:52to attach
13:53to the conspiracy theories
13:55around the fragment
13:56having been planted.
14:02We all have a set of beliefs.
14:04based on our observations
14:06of the available evidence.
14:09And people reach
14:10different conclusions
14:11on the basis of that.
14:14If you're looking
14:15for a clean answer,
14:17you're not going to get it.
14:18It's not going to get
14:19tied up in a nice little bow.
14:24There are people
14:25that doubt
14:26what I think
14:28the facts are.
14:29They don't want to believe
14:30that anybody in government
14:31can tell the truth.
14:32And I will say this,
14:35the people
14:36who worked on this case,
14:38top to bottom,
14:39were honest,
14:40forthright,
14:41believe in justice,
14:43wanted to do
14:44the right thing.
14:44The key item
14:48upon which
14:48the whole case
14:49depends
14:50is not correct.
14:54The evidence
14:55that was used
14:56in the court
14:56to convict a Libyan
14:58was in fact
15:00false.
15:03We became
15:04very friendly
15:04with Jim.
15:06Then at some point,
15:07Jim veered off
15:08into a direction
15:09that we couldn't agree with.
15:11he believed
15:12that the truth
15:13is not known
15:14and we feel
15:15that the truth
15:16has become known.
15:18So that kind of
15:19brought us apart.
15:21Yeah.
15:22Obviously,
15:22we are all entitled
15:23to our beliefs,
15:25but we don't
15:26necessarily share them.
15:27I am 100% convinced
15:48Pan Am 103
15:49was brought down
15:50by a timer
15:51built in a shop
15:52in Zurich, Switzerland
15:53by Mebo.
15:54Absolutely convinced
15:55of that.
15:57That fragment,
16:07which was found,
16:08is not
16:10from a
16:11MST-13-timer,
16:14which was sold to Libyan
16:15to be sold.
16:17That fragment,
16:19that
16:21entscheidest
16:22that Libyan
16:25in this
16:26was on the
16:30time.
16:31I was
16:32back to the
16:32office office
16:33from the FBI
16:34office office,
16:34and I was
16:36back to the office,
16:37and I was
16:38back to the office,
16:39I showed a prospect with two coffers, with full dollars.
16:50And I was offered,
16:53I could, if I'm a protocol,
16:57that this fragment
17:00from a libyshire timer
17:03can be organized,
17:06that I can get these four million dollars
17:09and I can come with my family to America
17:13and live in America.
17:22Edwin Baudier suggested I offered him four million dollars.
17:26Did you?
17:27No, God no.
17:29Initially he said a man by the name of Buck Revell offered it to him.
17:33He never met Buck Revell.
17:35All of a sudden he remembers he met me, so I offered him the money.
17:38No, I did not offer him one cent.
17:42The only thing I can tell you that I did tell him,
17:45you need to tell us everything you know.
17:48You need to tell the truth.
17:50That's the problem.
17:51His story kept changing.
17:53It changed at the trial
17:55and it's changed subsequent to that.
18:00Edwin Baudier is someone who's shrouded in a lot of mystery.
18:04We've never known which side of the fence he's playing,
18:07probably both.
18:11I can remember Mr. McGrawhee has an office in Meibo.
18:15Okay, that's another circumstance.
18:19All the circumstances to me amount to a pile, a big pile.
18:23I have the three white roses, Christopher, Matthew, and Ashley.
18:43My red rose, as always.
18:45If John had to fall out of the sky,
18:50this couldn't have been a better place for him to come down.
18:55He was a very proud American of Scottish descent.
19:02You ever find yourself looking over to the field?
19:04Oh, yes.
19:05Yes, because that's where John died.
19:07He was in the nose cone of the plane.
19:15You know, through the years, you don't get over a loss of this type or this magnitude.
19:22You just learn how to live with it.
19:25And knowing that he is where he is here at Tundragarth in Scotland,
19:33among this most beautiful countryside and setting,
19:36you know, it's such a peaceful and serene place.
19:40When I got John back and I viewed him,
19:47I promised to him that I would try to find out who did this
19:51and hold people accountable.
19:53Because I know that if I had been on that flight,
19:55he would have done the same thing.
20:01When Al McGrawhee was found guilty as a Libyan official
20:04of bringing down Pan Am 103,
20:07the Libyans created a no-fault settlement offer
20:11saying that Libya was not taking responsibility
20:15but was offering $10 million.
20:19And that the family members had to sign off
20:22on ever trying to pursue Libya ever again.
20:37Does Libya accept responsibility for the attack on Lockerbie?
20:54So, to be very clear on this,
20:55what you're saying is that you accept responsibility
20:58but you're not admitting that you did it?
21:00Of course.
21:01I felt that if Libya didn't do it,
21:06they didn't owe me a penny.
21:08And if they did do it,
21:10they shouldn't be forcing us to sign a no-fault settlement deal.
21:17Some of the families of the victims
21:19wanted Gaddafi to be on trial at Camp Zeiss in the Netherlands.
21:23So, the idea that Muammar Gaddafi could later come round
21:27and dictate terms for them,
21:28yeah, that's going to stick in people's throats.
21:30There are people who'd say,
21:45if Libya had nothing to do with bombing Pan Am 103,
21:49why did they pay all this compensation?
21:51I think that's a question that's fairly easily answered.
21:56Gaddafi's son, Saif Gaddafi, told me,
22:00yeah, we've decided to pay compensation
22:02because that's the only way we can get the ball rolling,
22:05get our old industry back on stream
22:08and get the money coming in again.
22:14Libya desperately wanted and needed
22:17to get its relationship with the West back on track.
22:22In order to do that,
22:23they had to admit responsibility for the bombing,
22:26whether or not they did it,
22:28and pay compensation, whether or not they did it.
22:31Whichever camp you fall into,
22:33whether you believe the Libyans did it or not,
22:36you've always been thwarted by politics.
22:38Britain's needs of Libya and access to oil revenues
22:48were greater than the United States.
22:50They didn't need to make the compromises
22:52the British government were, it appears, prepared to do.
22:59Prime Minister Tony Blair met with Muammar Gaddafi,
23:03and during this meeting, there were two documents signed.
23:08One was a very large British petroleum deal.
23:16And the second was a prisoner transfer agreement.
23:22In Libya, there were no UK prisoners,
23:25and there was only one Libyan prisoner in all of the UK,
23:30Al McGrachy.
23:36McGrachy was diagnosed with terminal cancer in 2008.
23:43At that point, a lot was going on in the background.
23:47Tony Blair had done his deal in the desert a year earlier.
23:50There was a very strong push to normalize relations with Libya.
23:58And as far as the Libyans were concerned,
24:01if they were going to do any deal about oil,
24:04that deal had to involve McGrachy coming home.
24:08We have been in contact with the Scottish government,
24:21indicating that we objected to this.
24:24We thought it was a mistake.
24:25We're now in contact with the Libyan government
24:28and want to make sure that he's not welcomed back.
24:33How did you feel when McGrachy was released?
24:37Pissed.
24:38And I'd had nothing to drink.
24:40I was angry.
24:44I'm not a big believer in the death penalty,
24:46but I think you need to sit in prison the rest of your life
24:48and think about what you did.
24:52Abdel Bassett Al McGrachy had been sentenced to life,
24:55but because he has cancer and is believed to have only three months to live,
25:01he was released and returned to Libya today.
25:10To me, I thought, well, I guess this is Scottish justice and everything,
25:15but I found that all pretty appalling.
25:20Hundreds of people were bussed in for the event.
25:25Scottish flags were provided.
25:27It was a decision taken by the Scottish legal system,
25:31but it's clear the return of the bomber suits many people.
25:35Out of all the things that have happened since December 21st, 1988,
25:41I would say McGrachy's release was probably one of the hardest things.
25:45It really made me know for sure for the rest of my life that there is no justice.
26:02Because I knew he was innocent.
26:04I wanted him to go home so he could die with his family.
26:08His release on compassionate leave was very hard to stomach,
26:17because my father and none of the people on the plane or on the ground
26:21had been treated with any compassion.
26:24So it was a very, very difficult moment.
26:31Why was he let go?
26:32The answer simply is so that the UK can go and drill for oil.
26:39I mean, thousands and thousands of people die in prison of cancer.
26:44It was tit for tat.
26:52I think I know who was responsible for killing my daughter Flora.
26:57And the truth is actually very simple.
27:00But the consequences of trying to conceal the truth are incredibly complex.
27:08I think she was killed by a bomb,
27:11which was ordained by the Iranian authorities.
27:15The motive they had was that they had had an airbus destroyed by an American missile.
27:27290 people killed.
27:29And therefore they were lusting for revenge.
27:36Where was Iran's revenge for that?
27:40Does Iran not revenge every attack?
27:45I have no doubt it was Iran.
27:52I don't say the Iranians personally went and blew up Pan Am.
27:55They used the PFLPGC, one of their client states.
28:00We knew the Iranians were behind all the American and British hostages in Lebanon.
28:05They had been held for the last eight years or more.
28:09I worked on that. I was in Lebanon. I worked on that case.
28:11I think we cut a deal with Iran and said, you give us back all the hostages, we will drop the focus on you for Pan Am.
28:22Because we knew we were guilty of why the Iranians did it.
28:24They did it in retaliation for us killing 250 of their people.
28:27So, uh, we'll go after Libya, because we always wanted to go after Libya.
28:32I'm not saying, I'm not defending Qaddafi. I'm not saying he's a clean character.
28:36He's got a lot of blood on his hands.
28:37But not the Pan Am blood.
28:43This was state-sponsored terrorism. That's the only thing we definitely know about Lockerbie.
28:47But the full extent of that state-sponsored terrorism remains under a veil of secrecy.
29:00I believe, as a Libyan citizen, that Megrahi was used on behalf of Qaddafi to take part in that horrendous crime, but play a small part.
29:25I think it was a three-way operation.
29:33Iran paid the money.
29:36The French-Palestinian group in Syria provided the technology and the planning.
29:44And I think Qaddafi provided the facilitation to use the Malta route.
29:49It is not inconceivable. I mean, look at the terrorist contacts Qaddafi had established that could have allowed something like that to happen.
30:01Maybe he wanted to ingratiate himself with the Iranians.
30:05It's not impossible that this is the case, but we don't have evidence to show it.
30:11The Lockerbie disaster was probably closest, out of any other sort of legal event, to the assassination of John Kennedy.
30:23Because the questions over JFK's death have never been answered.
30:31And indeed, the individual that's presented as having caused this, caused the death, for many people, they're a small pin in a much bigger picture.
30:41Big, bigger picture.
30:42So, Megrahi's the Lee Harvey Oswald?
30:44Yeah.
30:50We found Abdul Basid al-Megrahi's villa in an upmarket part of town.
30:55We're gonna knock on the door, see if we can get any answer.
30:58I saw him on his deathbed in Tripoli, and he was hooked up to oxygen.
31:04The family passionately telling you he wasn't responsible.
31:09But part of you feels, surely this must be true.
31:15But the circumstantial evidence speaks very strongly for his involvement,
31:20and the Libyan government's willingness to sacrifice him, absolutely.
31:24A major breakthrough in the decades-long investigation into the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103,
31:42the man accused of making the explosive device is now in U.S. custody.
31:46The man accused of building the bomb that blew up Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland in 1988,
31:52making his first appearance in a U.S. court.
31:55What do you name of the latest development in the story?
31:58Mr. Massoud?
32:00We got his name about the same time as we got Megrahi's name from the CIA.
32:07Massoud allegedly was a longtime Libyan intelligence officer
32:12who had the skill set to build the bomb that brought down Pan Am 103.
32:19There's also evidence that locates him in Malta Airport on the day when the bomb was placed on the aircraft.
32:29When the Scottish police went to Libya in 1999, they asked questions.
32:34We want to see the passport records for Megrahi.
32:37We want FEMA.
32:38We want Massoud.
32:39We don't know who Massoud is.
32:41We can't identify him.
32:42Don't know who he is.
32:44Then, years later, Massoud confessed to a Libyan police officer
32:49that he built an M-103 bomb and put it on the plane along with FEMA and Megrahi.
32:58But Massoud's confession is probably not worth the paper it was written on
33:01because it was given to Libyan security forces after the downfall of Gaddafi.
33:06They were effectively militias.
33:09This was not a confession that was given under circumstances
33:13that would give you confidence in its authenticity.
33:19The U.S. apprehension and arrest of Libyan terrorist suspect Abu Aguila Mohamed Massoud
33:26is the first tangible step made by the U.S. Department of Justice in 34 years
33:32to hold any suspect accountable in U.S. courts.
33:38After 35 years, it's like...
33:41I have friends that actually say,
33:43when is it going to end?
33:44I said, it never ends.
33:47He was the bomb maker, so he was part of the puzzle.
33:52We have him, so try him.
33:55And I hope we have a different experience in trying him
33:59and incarcerating him and keeping him there.
34:08Lockerbie was a huge tragedy.
34:22Nothing had happened on a scale like this before.
34:27The biggest terrorist attack in the sky is targeting mostly Americans.
34:33This was unimaginable.
34:35Back in the late 80s, terrorism had just not reached that type of level.
34:41When you've seen the aftermath of something like that,
34:44you just can't get it out of your head.
34:46I was terrified every time I got on a plane.
34:48It was a constant and real threat.
34:56Pan Am 103 was one of those terrorist attacks on commercial aviation
35:00that drove Pan Am, Pan American Airways.
35:03The stellar carrier in the United States drove it out of business.
35:07This was a wake-up call about the new terrorism that was on the horizon.
35:16It made people realize that perhaps their lives weren't as safe as they thought they were.
35:25It wasn't long until 9-11.
35:30They were proven right.
35:31The level of terrorism that the world faces today is quantifiably much greater.
35:42It's not going away.
35:48After 20 years of the war on terror,
35:51there are at least five times as many Salafi jihadi terrorist groups
35:56on the U.S. State Department's list than there were on September 12, 2001.
36:03Do we reap what we sow as the West meddling in these other countries?
36:09We have to understand, just like in physics, every action has a reaction.
36:13Everything we do to counter terrorism is not game over.
36:17It's just another move on the chessboard.
36:26The last time we were here, we talked about the body that you found still in his seat in the field over there.
36:36Yes.
36:37And Hugh, you talked about how you guys developed a relationship with him.
36:41Right from the start, I think, we called him our boy, you know.
36:46Because he just looked so young.
36:48You know, we felt responsible for him, really.
36:50And we knew he'd be relative somewhere.
36:55And saddened by what had happened.
36:57But you did eventually find out, didn't you?
37:00Yes, it took quite a while.
37:02And what was his name?
37:03Frank Tula.
37:05Yeah.
37:06As I say, we thought he was just a boy.
37:09He was actually 40, I think.
37:1145.
37:13And there was a wife called Mary Lou.
37:16We were just keeping, hoping they would come, you know.
37:18And then it was arranged, she was coming for these ashes.
37:22And that would be her first visit.
37:24So how often have you kept in contact over the last 30 years?
37:28All the time.
37:29Mary Lou always felt it was such a beautiful place for Frank to fall.
37:33I don't know what she'll think today, mind you.
37:36She's never been here on a day like this.
37:44It's cleared a bit right enough.
37:46Hi!
37:47Hey, hello!
37:49How are you?
37:51I was just saying, I have to show you.
37:53Good to see you.
37:54I have to show you all the pictures from the last few days.
37:56We've had a busy, a busy few days.
37:59Michelle.
38:01How are you doing?
38:03Good.
38:05Tell me, you guys have obviously built this relationship now.
38:08But what was it like the first time you came here?
38:11When I first met them, I felt like I knew them already.
38:14I mean, really, they were warm and we hugged and it was okay.
38:19What happened felt so inhumane and felt so violent and horrific.
38:25Yes.
38:26Oh, and it was.
38:28And it was.
38:29It was.
38:30It was.
38:31Yes.
38:32But then coming here and seeing this other side of the story, the humanity came back.
38:37I felt that he was alone somewhere and yet when I came here, he wasn't alone.
38:42So that kind of really helped me a lot because he was with them.
38:46Yeah.
38:47I was a different person when I came and a different person when I left.
38:51Mine was actually, and I don't even have to say, a nice story.
38:55I just will never forget how you walked to the spot.
38:59You were so confident where to go.
39:02And it was that like feeling like how important that place was for you too.
39:08And the spot where his life ended, like that's a major part of the story.
39:14And we know where he came to this earth, where he was found and we can stand there.
39:20It's like, it's stunning.
39:29They all have their own very important story to tell.
39:52It took me 15 years.
39:55This is my contribution to keeping the memory of what was lost alive.
40:01Because as long as this exists and people see it, Penn and Mano III will not be forgotten.
40:12I want so desperately to help Alex live on.
40:16Because what happened to him is so unfair.
40:19The fact that I see him in one of my kids really brings great pleasure to me.
40:26And my youngest son is named Alex also.
40:31And so it's his namesake.
40:34It's nice.
40:36It's very nice.
40:40This is John's boarding pass.
40:42It says, Panama 103, 21st December.
40:44His seat was 3A.
40:46I always felt guilty that I didn't go with him because I thought that maybe if we had gone, we would have come back the following day together.
40:58But then again, who knows, right?
41:01Who knows?
41:02It's a lovely spot.
41:07It looks out over the sea.
41:09My father and my mother's graves are here.
41:15And a memorial to poor Flora.
41:20Facing theirs.
41:26You've spent the last 35 years living this.
41:30No regrets doing that?
41:32Infinite regrets.
41:34The only regret that really matters, of course, is the loss of Flora.
41:36And the loss of Flora.
41:38We are left with a legacy of loss, but also of good memories of a beautiful and beloved child.
Comments