- 7 months ago
Visit our website:
http://www.france24.com
Like us on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/FRANCE24.English
Follow us on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/France24_en
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:00Welcome to the programme. Good to have you with us for today's programme. It is, of course,
00:16one year after Donald Trump was sworn into office for his second term. And in our programme
00:23today will be focusing on the tumultuous, astonishing, dangerous year it has been. The
00:3047th US president has transformed the United States and turned the wider world upside down.
00:38Well, there are simply so many facets to the Donald Trump presidency. On the international stage,
00:45he deliberately projects ambiguity and he approaches peace deals like business deals.
00:51He insults allies and displays utter contempt for international order. On the domestic front
00:58in the US, he has sent masked agents from ICE, that's the Illegal Immigration Enforcement Unit,
01:05to Democrat cities in the US in a dramatic implementation of his promise to deport
01:11illegal immigrants. He's also extended the reach of the presidency. He has packed institutions with
01:18loyalists. He's pursued enemies using the state apparatus and gone to war with academia and with
01:26the media. And he has openly blurred the line between personal financial gain and the office of the
01:32presidency. That is a lot. Well, joining me on set to discuss all this is Reid Brody, who is a human
01:41rights lawyer and a former New York state assistant attorney general. He has decades of experience in
01:48international litigation and advocacy and has worked with the victims of some of the world's most brutal
01:55tyrants. Well, thank you for joining us here on set, Mr. Brody. Very good to have you with us.
02:00You know, where to begin? Such a lot has happened in one year. You famously predicted a lot of this
02:11in an article you wrote, some of our readers can find it in Le Monde. You predicted how different
02:18Trump's second term might be to his first term. Tell us why it is so different.
02:26Well, the first time he was elected, it was a surprise to everybody, but also to him. And so
02:32he came to the presidency really unprepared without a program. And he surrounded himself by people from
02:39the, you know, the Republican establishment. And they were able to kind of curtail his his worst
02:47instincts so that when, you know, when he wanted to send troops onto the streets to put down the Black
02:54Lives Matter protest, the his secretary of defense and no, Mr. President, you can't do that.
03:00You know, when he tried to overturn the elections, he had there was his vice president,
03:08Mike Pence said, no, Mr. President, we can't do that. You know, the secretary of state of Georgia
03:16said, no, I can't find you 12,000 votes. This time he was, you know, he had four years to think
03:24about this, to ruminate and to prepare. And this time, and of course, he was, he was reelected
03:32despite having, you know, despite the riots of the six of January six. So he felt emboldened. And this
03:39time he had an army of people and a program ready to implement, you know, from day one. And now,
03:47you know, I mean, when we, you know, we talk about sending troops to places. Now he's chosen people
03:53like the secretary of defense or the secretary of war, as he likes to call himself, Peter Hegseth,
03:58who is not going to say, no, Mr. President, you can't do it. I mean, these people are only chosen
04:03for their loyalty to the president. And they're not going to resign on principle as many people did in
04:09the first term. And so all of the things that he said he, that he wanted to do in the first term,
04:15and that he said he was going to do, I mean, he, he, sending troops onto the streets, he said he was
04:21going to do that. Using the Department of Justice to go after his political enemies, you know, he said
04:27he was going to do that. You know, rounding up immigrants and deporting them, he said he was going
04:32to do that. So, I mean, many people didn't take him at his word. And of course, you know, there was a lot
04:38of disillusionment with Joe Biden. But much of his program were things that he's wanted to do since
04:46his first term. And I remember in the campaign, there were people who said, Donald Trump says he's
04:53going to do this, but you have to take it with a pinch of salt. And they very much appeared to rely
04:57on those checks and balances, the Supreme Court, Congress. Why are they proving so ineffective in
05:06curtailing Donald Trump's activities?
05:08Well, I think that's, that's been a big story of the first term, of this term is, is the failure
05:14of those traditional counterweights. I mean, we have a Congress, which is totally silent. I mean,
05:20you basically, because of the Republic, I mean, his total control over the Republican Party,
05:28Congress has not played its role. You know, the founding fathers expected that who had come,
05:33the founding fathers who had come out of the, you know, the experience with the King of England
05:37had expected that if somebody, you know, behaved like a King, Congress would step in and exercise
05:43its prerogatives. But when you have a president who totally controls the party that, you know,
05:49controls Congress, that doesn't happen. The Supreme Court has been, you know, manipulated
05:54by, by previous Republican Congresses so that there is, you know, a six to three built-in majority.
06:02What we're seeing as well in the media, I mean, a lot of, we're learning in America how dangerous it
06:09is when media, when, when, when newspapers and television stations are owned by big conglomerates
06:16that have more important, you know, political and business interests. So, you know, whether it's
06:22the Washington Post, which is owned by Amazon, or whether, you know, just a few weeks ago, the,
06:29the, you know, 60 Minutes, the leading investigative program in the United States, you know, pulled a,
06:36a, a segment on the gulag in, in El Salvador, to which prisoner, to which immigrants are sent,
06:42um, because now CBS is owned by friends of Trump. And, and we're looking, we're staring at, at the
06:48possibility that CNN will be owned by friends of Trump. Um, so all of these traditional counterweights,
06:54um, you know, and, and, and what we saw in the first, I would say, half year, eight months, is
06:59everybody feeling like appeasement and flattery and giving Trump presence and telling him how great
07:06was, was, was the way to deal with him. Um, and, you know, we're seeing that his appetite doesn't
07:12stop, you know, with the first concession. I mean, universities who made one concession,
07:17law firms who made one concession, they're finding they have to make more and more concessions.
07:21I have to say that that, I think that's changing. I mean, I just came back from four months in New
07:26York. Um, and I got, I, I, I feel that people are taking stock of what is happening more and more
07:33people. I mean, obviously the election of Zoran Mandani in New York, which was a, you know, a
07:39massive, uh, uh, citizen kind of revolt, you know, which had a hundred thousand people going door to
07:45door. Um, on no King's day, there were 7 million people out on the streets. Um, you know, we're seeing,
07:52I mean, there are hundreds of thousands of us who have whistles to, you know, to anti-ice whistles
07:58to alert, to alert when ice is coming. And I'm, I'm, I mean, I'm, I'm kind of hoping this is a
08:03tragedy in, in, in Minneapolis with the, with the, you know, with the murder of Renee Good is,
08:10you know, uh, uh, an inflection point where people are, are, you know, even many MAGA people,
08:16even many Republicans are very uncomfortable with the deliberate cruelty, uh, of, you know,
08:22these men are, you know, these armed and, and, and, and masked men on the streets of,
08:28of democratic cities. You, you know, in just a few minutes there have outlined numerous ways
08:34in which Trump has flouted, uh, uh, the normal way of doing things. And in many cases,
08:41has outright flouted the rule of law in the United States. If you had to pick, uh, one thing,
08:47you know, you talked about controlling the media, controlling academia, uh, packing institutions
08:52with Trump loyalists. We haven't yet mentioned the blurring of the lines between his own financial
08:58gain and the presidency. Uh, if you had to put, pick one area, what is it that worries you most
09:04about the way he operates? I think that the erosion of the rule of law, the erosion of checks,
09:11you know, I mean, you, we talked about the masked ice, you know, heavily militarized soldiers,
09:18soldiers, and actually soldiers, um, going on the streets of, of cities. But what they're talking
09:24about now is that these people have, according to, to, to the administration, absolute immunity.
09:29Now that is not a concept in America. Uh, uh, J.D. Vance came out and said, whatever you do,
09:36you're immune. I mean, you know, that is, that is fascism. Um, you know, the idea that you can't
09:43ask questions, the idea that, that people can, can, can kill with impunity. Um, I mean, we are,
09:49we are on a very, you know, I think the only thing that separates us really from, from total fascism
09:55in the United States is resistance, resistance by people, resistance by cities, resistance by
10:00governors, uh, resistance by neighbors. Um, because this is a real, we are living very dangerous
10:06moment in the United States. And the Democrats during the campaign warned of that. They talked
10:12a lot. Some people said they should have spent more time talking about other issues and not these
10:17more abstract ideas of, uh, threat to democracy, threat to democratic institutions. Now that it appears
10:24to be happening in reality, uh, do you think some of those who voted Trump are now worried by that
10:32before they tended to take it a pinch of salt? Do you think that more and more people are beginning
10:37to be worried by this? I think so. I mean, uh, you know, the polls show that even Republicans,
10:43even people who are still in favor of Trump, um, are, are, are uncomfortable at the cruelty. Um,
10:51I mean, maybe one of the things that is, is, is the worst here is, is how he has pitted Americans
10:58against Americans, how he has pitted people against their neighbors, um, for his political
11:05gain, how he's sown division and hatred. And he doesn't see himself as president of all the
11:11Americans. I mean, he, he, he outright says that he wishes the worst for his enemies. He,
11:16he deliberately and overtly takes funding away from democratic states. He says that, um, he sends
11:25troops into democratic run cities. Um, this idea that, you know, of, of just a total breakdown of
11:33a civil discourse is, is, and I think it's, it's, it's worrisome to many people, even Republicans.
11:39I mean, obviously, you know, there is, and, and, you know, people who watch Fox news, who watch the
11:47right wing programs are getting a very different version of what's happening. But look, 80% of
11:52Americans watch that video of Renee good. They can see with their own eyes, what happens. And when,
12:00when Trump and, and Pam Bondi, you know, who was only put there because she was his personal lawyer,
12:05um, uh, you know, come out and say, tell people that what they saw is not real. It's kind of like
12:11when the Democrats were all saying, no, Joe Biden, he's okay, but people can see, I mean,
12:15Americans maybe are not as educated as they should be. Maybe they don't get the best information they
12:21could, but there's certain point. You can't fool all the people all the time.
12:25Just to push back on, on a couple of, uh, points you've made there, you know, the, uh, Trump trying
12:32to control the media and academic institutions. I've spoken to Trump supporters who say, you know,
12:38hang on, don't pretend that before the media and, uh, academic institutions were places of free
12:45speech. There was much too much cancelling, uh, and, uh, throttling of people's real opinions.
12:50On the ICE, uh, implementation, the very heavy handed implementation of trying to get illegal
12:57immigrants out, people say, well, how do you do it? You know, what would you say to people who make
13:03those criticisms? Well, those are very different issues. Um, you know, certainly, I mean, you know,
13:08academic freedom is a bedrock of, uh, of free speech of American society. I mean, we know, I mean,
13:17J.D. Vance before, you know, years ago said, we have to go after the universities. I mean,
13:23it is an attempt to, uh, you know, attack, uh, freedom of thought. Now, certainly, I mean, you,
13:29you have, you have progressive universities, you have less, and you have conservative universities.
13:34Um, you know, in terms of, of, of immigration, obviously, you know, one of the reasons that Trump
13:42was elected was this feeling that there was chaos at the border. Um, but I don't think anybody,
13:48I mean, I have gone, I, every two weeks when I was in New York, I went with immigrants to
13:53immigration court. I walked them past masked, iced men standing in the hallways. Now, the, the,
14:01the people I was talking to, you know, these were people who came to America for the same reason my
14:06parents came to America for the same reason Donald Trump's grandparents came to America for freedom
14:12and for a better life. These are not people looking for a handout. Okay. There needs to be
14:16control of immigration, but the deliberate cruelty with which it is being done, the demonstrative
14:22cruelty is something that I think appalls almost all Americans. You're going to stay with us,
14:29uh, Reed Brodie. Uh, but we were going to take a look now. We're going to take a look at
14:33some of the foreign policy, uh, initiatives under Trump. Let's get a sense of those, uh,
14:39with the actions abroad and tensions have been building of course, for months between
14:44the European union and the U S Trump has had a seemingly warm face to face encounters with
14:50some European leaders, but he's also been very vocal in his criticism of Europe. Charlotte
14:56Hughes has a story.
14:57It's a message that appears to ramp up tensions over Greenland between Washington and some
15:05of its closest allies. Over the weekend, Donald Trump sent this text to Norway's prime minister.
15:13Considering your country decided not to give me the Nobel peace prize, I no longer feel an
15:18obligation to think purely of peace. The world is not secure unless we have complete and total
15:23control of Greenland. As well as his ominous remarks, the U S president has threatened
15:29several European countries with tariffs in his bid to rest sovereignty over Greenland.
15:36When he's met with certain European leaders in the past, Trump has struck a warmer tone.
15:41She's become a friend and we really have a great relationship.
15:46In this interview though, Trump did not hold back in his criticism of Europe.
15:50It's very hard for them. I think they're weak, but I also think that they want to be so
15:56politically correct. I think they don't know what to do.
16:00So how does Trump want Europe to behave? This analyst explains his theory.
16:06What the White House wants to do is to replace the current European elites with whom they don't
16:10think they can work. Elites who they view as liberal both left and right, with other European
16:14populists who align with their agenda. U S vice president J.D. Vance has voiced multiple
16:25criticisms of Europe. The threat that I worry the most about vis-a-vis Europe is not Russia,
16:31it's not China, it's not any other external actor. And what I worry about is the threat from within.
16:39The retreat of Europe from some of its most fundamental values, values shared with the
16:44United States of America. According to this analyst, Washington is hoping
16:49for a certain outcome in the 2027 French presidential election.
16:55France was criticized during Marine Le Pen's first trial,
16:58and were expecting criticism during the appeal trial. Here in West Virginia, some 70% of residents
17:06voted for Trump in the 2024 election. Some support his stance on Europe.
17:11Europe has kind of lost its way, in my opinion, for the most part. It's like woke,
17:16like extremely woke, which is problematic. Others are more critical of the U S president.
17:22Europeans as our partners. I don't think that we need to have any enemies in Europe.
17:33You just don't take over Greenland. I mean, please.
17:37According to a CNN poll, 75% of Americans are opposed to the U S trying to take control of Greenland.
17:44So, Reid Brody, that was a quick look at some of the action on the international stage. You know,
17:52might is right, insulting allies. How should the outside world handle Donald
18:00Trump? You can't handle the whole world. How should Europe handle Donald Trump?
18:04Donald Trump. I think Europe needs to stand up to Donald Trump. I mean, what we've seen in the
18:09United States is that Trump pushes and pushes, um, and he will do what he says, unless he is met
18:17with force, um, with, with an equal force. And then he, then he can back down. I mean,
18:22the Trump always chickens out, um, when he's met with force. And I think, you know, internationally,
18:28we see that, you know, he, he tried to impose huge tariffs on Brazil because of the former
18:35president Jair Bolsonaro. Lula stood up to him and he backed down. China stood up to him and he
18:40backed down. Europe has been, you know, trying to flatter him and appease him. I mean, the trade deal
18:48in which they agreed to 15% tariffs in exchange for nothing was humiliating. And Trump sees that.
18:53He sees weakness and he pushes. And I think Greenland may be, I mean, in a sense, the international
19:01equivalent of the killing of Rene Good. It's the moment when Europeans see that appeasement
19:06and flattery doesn't work with Donald Trump. And of the range of options Europe has,
19:13what sort of leverage should it use to stand up to Donald Trump? I mean, I think, you know, we've
19:20talked to, you've in Europe, I, I hear a lot talking about the anti-coercion bazooka, you know,
19:27taking, uh, retaliation against American companies, uh, which, you know, need to be regulated anyway,
19:34because, you know, Trump is, is, is trying to prevent Europe, um, from regulating the digital
19:41companies in ways, um, that, that harm, that, that, that protect European social welfare. So I think
19:46it's a, it's, it's a double benefit to Europe, um, to use these, these, these anti-coercion measures.
19:54I think Europe needs to show, it needs to become autonomous in terms of defense, um, not to rely,
20:01I mean, clearly a lot of the pandering that Europe is doing is because they want to keep the United
20:06States on side for the protection of Ukraine. Europe should be able to protect Europe, uh, fully.
20:13Um, and Europe needs to stand for international law. Um, I mean, it should have stood for international
20:20law in Venezuela, which it did not. It should be standing for international law in Gaza, which it
20:28has not. Doesn't it have to pick its battles, you know, Venezuela? No, I don't. You know, you either,
20:33you, you, you, you're either for international law or you're against it. I mean, double standards
20:38standards is precisely, um, what undermines international law. Um, you know, you can't
20:45say, okay, we agree that Trump bombed, uh, Iran cause we don't like the Ayatollahs. And we agree
20:51that he took out Maduro cause we don't like Maduro, but here internet, when it comes to our, you know,
20:57our hide, we care about international law. No, I mean, I think that, um, you know, the, the United
21:05Nations was established, you know, in, uh, 60, 80 years ago, um, in order to, you know, to, to, to,
21:16to save the world from the scourge of war. And it's actually done a pretty good job with the basic
21:21rules that you can't invade another country just cause you want to. And, um, you know,
21:27that rule should apply to, I mean, you know, as, as, as somebody who's worked with victims,
21:31uh, uh, of, of brutal regimes all over the world, I very happy to see Nicolas Maduro in handcuffs,
21:38um, but not this way. We don't have a lot of time, time for one more question though. This, uh,
21:44board of peace, uh, which on Friday when it was announced, people thought it was as it had been in the
21:51beginning, uh, to oversee the transition in Gaza to stability, to, uh, proper governance. It is now,
22:00it seems morphing into something which might undermine the United Nations, where Trump would
22:06have a veto, where you'd have to pay to join up. Macron has said, uh, no, thank you. What do you make
22:12about, what do you make of this? Good for Macron. I mean, Trump wants to replace the United Nations
22:18with Trump. He'll, he'll put, he'll put his name on the building. You know, he'll put his name on
22:24Greenland. He'll put his name on the building. Um, you know, the United Nations needs to be reformed.
22:29The Security Council composition is outdated, but you know, just let's not hand over the keys to
22:35the world to Donald Trump, please. Good place to end. Thank you so much, uh, Reed Brodie for your
22:41time. We really do appreciate it. It's a great to hear your, your insights on all of that. Reed Brodie there.
Comments