- 9 months ago
Last week, Bajrang Dal activists attacked a birthday party in Bareilly and singled out the Muslim youths who were attending the party. The Bajrang Dal claimed this was love jihad.
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00:00But tonight, our top focus, a focus on a disturbing trend that is becoming all too familiar, especially in towns and cities of North India.
00:12It seems that for the last few weeks, not a day has passed without one hardline Hindutva right-wing group or the other spreading hate in the name of religion, often targeting Muslims and even Christians.
00:24Today, an outfit called the Hindu Raksha Dal was found distributing swords in Ghaziabad, forcing the police to make arrests only after the videos went viral.
00:34Just a couple of days ago, over the weekend, Bajrang Dal workers attacked a birthday party in Bareli and singled out the Muslim youth who were attending the party.
00:45The Bajrang Dal claimed this was love jihad.
00:47Only last week, we saw the Bajrang Dal once again resorting to violence, targeting Christmas celebrations in many parts of the country.
00:56Tonight, I want to ask the question, has the time come now for tough action on Bajrang Dal?
01:03Should the group be banned or at least exemplary punishment be given so that a firm message is sent out?
01:10That's the question we are going to raise tonight.
01:14But before that, take a look at this report on a birthday party in Bareli that was targeted by the Bajrang Dal in an absolutely despicable display of violent behavior.
01:27Take a look.
01:28What was to be a birthday party to cherish turned into a nightmare for a young nursing student in Bareli.
01:49Just moments after she cut the cake in the company of her friends, suspected Bajrang Dal workers barged into the cafe.
01:55They picked up on two people, Muslim college mates of the woman.
02:03What followed was thuggery.
02:06The group led by Rishab Thakur accused the men of love jihad and assaulted them.
02:25All the while, they took videos, which they later posted on social media.
02:30The police arrived and acted promptly, slapping fines on the victims of the salt and the cafe owner for disturbing the peace.
02:37The next day, following an outrage on social media, the police filed an FIR against the assailants.
02:42The next day, the police arrived at Bajrang Dalai.
03:12The leader of the group, Rishab Thakur, is at large, but he posted a video on Tuesday defending his actions.
03:42The nursing student, shaken by the incident, is seeking firm action.
04:04Congress leader Shama Mohammed called for a ban on the Bajrangdan.
04:12The bazaar was not a person, or a person who said it would be a person today.
04:19The leader of the council, the leader of the group, the leader of the group, the leader of the group, the leader of the group, and the leader of the group.
04:29People are crying for Gaza and the leader of the group, and in Bangladesh, the leader of the group.
04:33People have to think that their question is a problem with their question.
04:37The hate attack has triggered outrage across the country.
04:55The question remains, why are Bajrang Dal and its affiliates getting a free run?
05:01Krishan Gopal Raj in Bareilly, Bureau Report, India Today.
05:07So let's raise that big question. Are the Bajrang Dal and its affiliates getting a free run at the moment?
05:14Are the law enforcement agencies still much too soft on groups like the Bajrang Dal?
05:19Is stronger action needed to check hate? Is banning the Bajrang Dal a solution?
05:25That's an additional question that I'm going to pose tonight.
05:28Joining me now, Dushan Dave, Senior Advocate of the Supreme Court.
05:31Yashu Vardhan Azad, former IPS officer. Rahul Ishwar is author and Hindu activist.
05:37I appreciate all of you joining me.
05:40Dushan Dave, purely first in legal terms.
05:44Do you believe that a ban on Bajrang Dal is legally tenable?
05:49That you can ban an outfit based on what we've seen particularly in the last few days
05:55but also over the history of the Bajrang Dal?
05:57Because attempts have been made to ban them in the past. They've never worked.
06:01See, first and foremost, Rajdeep, it is very difficult to pinpoint only on the Bajrang Dal.
06:09There are today across the country all kinds of outfits who have decided to take law into their own hands.
06:16And they are fringe elements. They just spring up from nowhere and they go, as you have shown on your show just now,
06:26they go and disrupt all kinds of functions, all kinds of programs, everything at their will.
06:33You know, for example, cow vigilantes.
06:37This, you know, attacks on so-called love jihad, you know, people have taken upon themselves now,
06:43stopping a Muslim boy, you know, being with a Hindu girl and attacking the family.
06:48There are, you know, across the country, I would say hundreds and hundreds of such groups which have sprung up like mushrooms.
06:56And it is impossible, therefore, to really control them unless the country or nation decides that enough is enough.
07:05We cannot permit this nonsense to go on any longer.
07:09What you showed, for example, in Ahmedabad, it just happened that there's a very well-known mall there.
07:15And at that mall, there were, you know, Christmas, you know, decorations made.
07:20And this group of people calling themselves Hindu outfit went there and, you know, destroyed all that.
07:27Now, you know, this is something which is very difficult to stop unless, you know, a very heavy hand of law takes over.
07:36There is no point identifying Bajarandan alone. Bajarandan may be one of them, you know.
07:42But there are, Vishwa Hindu Parishad has been openly, you know, advocating about it.
07:46So, you're saying a ban is not feasible? I'm sorry, you're saying a ban is not feasible because there are hundreds of outfits and they will metamorphose in different forms.
07:58Am I correct? Banning them is not an option. Use the existing legal provisions.
08:04I feel that ban won't really be sustained in a court of law because it would be very difficult, you know, to prohibition to ban.
08:13You require an extraordinary material and these isolated instances really will not call for.
08:19They are not a terrorist organization on which you can impose a ban.
08:23They are an organization which indulges in unlawful activities and law.
08:27Ordinary law should take care of that.
08:30So, I don't think ban will really work.
08:32And what really needs is a message from the top.
08:37The prime minister, the home minister and the chief ministers of the state should, you know, ensure that a message goes from them.
08:44Unless they give the message, it is very difficult for us to really control these people.
08:49Now, the division and the divide in society is so complete.
08:53And this, you know, aggressive form of Hinduism which has now, you know, come up, that face is very difficult to control.
09:01I mean, you see it even in our drawing rooms, people talking about things which were unheard of 20 years ago.
09:09And today people talk openly about targeting certain sections of the society and feeling proud about it.
09:16So, what do you do?
09:17The mindset has changed.
09:18You know, the whole approach has changed.
09:20You know, religion is being weaponized today.
09:23So, what do you do about it?
09:24Unless people at the top and the religious leaders, the civic society leaders, the other leaders, you know, spiritual leaders and political leaders all should come out and do something together.
09:36You are calling it a leadership challenge.
09:38You are saying people at the top have to speak out and speak out strongly.
09:42I will come back to you in a moment.
09:43I just want to bring you Yashi Azad because the Supreme Court in a case, Tahseen Punawala versus Union of India 2018, said it is the state's responsibility to prevent mob violence, protect targeted communities, arrest perpetrators and discipline officers.
10:00Now, in the case of Bareli, the police say we have arrested the people involved.
10:05Today, when swords were being distributed by Hindu Raksha Dal, the police says we have acted against them.
10:12Do you believe the police act strongly enough, puts the right provisions of the law so that there is exemplary punishment?
10:20Or is the kid glove treatment given to these vigilante groups?
10:24Whenever you have incidents of this kind, you know, it's a simple failure of law enforcement.
10:31There is nothing because banning is certainly not a practical idea because there are many fringe elements who in the name of Hindu outfits create this kind of a gundagardi and lumpenization.
10:43You know, even in the case of Bareli, you were asking me a very important question.
10:48Did the police take action?
10:49If you heard correctly, the policeman said that an FIR was registered the next day and that is when the FIR was registered and the arrests were made.
11:03If the police gets an information in a cafe that this kind of a gundagardi is going on,
11:09they are supposed to reach the spot immediately and arrest those people right there and then, get the FIR registered and from the victims.
11:20So, yes, the law enforcement has been weak.
11:23Now, in various other states, you know, Assam, Rajasthan, Chhattisgarh, Uttar Pradesh, Haryana,
11:29where these incidents have taken place in the last week of December.
11:35Mind you, Rajdeep, when incidents like this have happened before and the law enforcement knows,
11:43the collector or the ASP or the police commissioner, that this is the time you have to be extra sensitive,
11:49then that's the time when you watch over the main troublemakers.
11:54And therefore, I would say that it is definitely the state's responsibility.
11:59It is definitely the responsibility of the law enforcement.
12:02And it is because you have weak, supine law enforcement officers that these kinds of incidents are allowed.
12:10Because once the message...
12:11You are saying, you are saying in Bareilly, for example, the police need not have waited for an FIR.
12:16They should have moved in immediately.
12:18They should have had enough information in Bareilly to know that in a cafe this was happening.
12:22Am I correct?
12:23Absolutely.
12:24Absolutely.
12:25And they should have gone immediately and they should have arrested those people.
12:29And if there was no FIR, book them under 151.
12:34Because this kind of a serious law and order situation, no gundas should be allowed to create.
12:39Whether it is a bajrang dal or whatever name they carry.
12:43And therefore, it is absolutely the responsibility of the law enforcement officers who are weak and supine.
12:51Okay.
12:51I know this is from a former IPS officer.
12:53We will come to the police.
12:54What the police can do, apart from, of course, acting after an FIR is filed.
12:59But Rahul Ishwar, what is interesting, what I find interesting, and I will get my producer to put the instances of targeted attacks.
13:06You are seeing some of them at the bottom of the screen.
13:08Almost all of them, almost all of them are in North and Central India.
13:13This doesn't seem to happen in Southern India.
13:15It is largely, largely Odisha or BJP ruled states.
13:19This is not happening in the South, which leads many to believe that the bajrang dal believes it has got the impunity now.
13:25Because political Hindutva has grown in North and Central India.
13:29So, they believe that we have political patronage here.
13:32How do you respond?
13:33The South does not see the kind of incidents involving the bajrang dal that we see in the North and Central part of this country.
13:41That's it, sir.
13:42Two submissions.
13:43As you know, I am a Hindu right-wing activist fighting for Hindu temple causes for the past 20 years.
13:47As a practicing proud Hindu, I would like to start by apologizing to our Christian and Muslim brothers.
13:53For, you know, they have felt bad, they have wounded, and there is a sense of insecurity that many people have.
13:58I empathize, I accept, and I respect that.
14:01Second, there is a deeper issue at work.
14:03Unless we address that, mere banning or anything won't suffice.
14:07The reason is, Hindu community, because of so many things, including WhatsApp universities, have been injected with an idea that our population is declining in a very fast rate, our girls are being stolen.
14:19We all know that these are not facts.
14:21But unfortunately, such propaganda has taken root, mainly because of so many socio-cultural issues.
14:26Even in Kerala, one instance happened where one right-wing or ultra-right-wing related person was arrested for attacking Christmas Kerala.
14:34Now, what is the solution?
14:35The solution is Gandhiji and Vivekananda.
14:38See, it is beyond a political problem.
14:40It is a spiritual problem.
14:41For example, one of the best Christmas celebration in India happens on December 24th.
14:45Vivekananda's Belur Madh, where Hindu saints in Saffron do Arathi of Jesus Christ and Mother Mary.
14:51Unless we point this out and teach, we will never be able to solve problems.
14:55Our father of the nation, Mahatma Gandhi...
14:57It's politicization of religion.
14:59Mr. Rahul Ishwar, let's cut the chase.
15:01You mentioned the spiritual traditions and the great spiritual traditions of India.
15:05But now religion has been consumerized and politicized.
15:09That's the problem.
15:10The Bajrang Dal would not dare to do that if there was a strong political leadership committed to the spiritual traditions of Hinduism, not this militancy.
15:21Can I offer a one-line counter?
15:23The solution to politicization of religion is spiritualization of politics.
15:28The solution to politicization of religion is the spiritualization of politics.
15:32Rajiv Sarwil, no.
15:33In Shabarimala, for the past thousand years, we religiously and ritualistically go to a mosque and a church before going to Shabarimala Hindu temple.
15:42There are no votes in that.
15:43There are no votes in that.
15:44The votes are in this.
15:46The votes are in showing your aggression, your muscle flexing.
15:50That's the reason why we need...
15:51And we lost the father of the nation because of this hardline Islamophobia.
15:55God say, kill Mahatma Gandhi because God say, believed Mahatma Gandhi was leaning too much towards our Muslim brothers.
16:01See, that's the reason why we need a sense of balance.
16:04You know, I'm a supporter of Modiji.
16:05I respect Modiji.
16:06That Sabka Sat, Sabka Vigas or pluralism or secularism or whatever name you want to call, we should educate, create awareness regarding communal harmony and unity.
16:16And banning won't suffice because in one name or the other, it is going to come.
16:19And let us also point out...
16:20Sir, we don't want slogans.
16:21Sir, this country has seen slogans.
16:23Slogans are not the answer.
16:25We want action on the ground.
16:26And Dushyanda, you see, I come back to it.
16:28You said at the outset, banning is not a solution.
16:31I take your point because the fact is that today, this is the Hindu Rakhshak Dal, an organization called Hindu Rakhshak Dal, which was found in Ghaziabad distributing swords.
16:40How many such organizations will mushroom in different forms?
16:43They can change their name every now and then.
16:45You will recall a few, several years ago, Shriram Sene in Karnataka would go to a Mangalore pub.
16:52They attacked the people inside.
16:55So, there are across the country, these various organizations.
16:58Now, they claim they are reacting to radical Islam.
17:02So, their argument when I talk to some of them is we are trying to save the country.
17:06What will you tell them?
17:07That we are the Rakhshak.
17:09I think the real issue is, besides political will, there is something which is troubling me for a long, long time, at least in the last two decades.
17:23And that is the approach of the judiciary.
17:26The judiciary, to my mind, is not fair.
17:29And, you know, if this kind of behavior was done by people belonging to the minority community, they would have found it impossible to get a bail for even a year or two.
17:40But these, you know, people will be released on bail maybe in 24 hours or maybe in a couple of days' time.
17:46So, you know, judiciary today is also to be blamed to what is happening.
17:53The National Human Rights Commission is completely silent.
17:56I mean, what do they do?
17:57I don't understand.
17:58We are spending hundreds of crores of rupees creating these institutions.
18:02And they are not doing a damn thing about protecting human rights of, you know, citizens.
18:06These are gross violations of human rights, basic human values.
18:10So, judiciary law, as was pointed out, the police has failed completely across the country.
18:17We know that police officers cannot act independently.
18:20If any officer acts independently and sternly against this kind of rowdism, he will be transferred tomorrow.
18:27But judiciary is untouchable, at least supposed to be.
18:30Why are judges so lenient?
18:32Why are judges not taking this situation seriously?
18:36You know, if you send, if you send maybe a hundred people...
18:39Tell me a provision that you can use.
18:41You are saying most of these provisions are instantly bailable.
18:44What would you do?
18:45Which are the provisions that can be applied?
18:47These are very...
18:49To my mind, they invoke provisions which are lenient.
18:53According to me, these assaults are almost murderous assaults.
18:57Why should they attempt to murder me, not levied on them?
19:00Why should they not be picked up for that?
19:03Ultimately, you know, people are...
19:05Cow vigilantes are killing across the country.
19:07We know that.
19:08So, you know, judiciary, even in these kind of offences, judge has a duty to say that these offences which you are charging them are very light.
19:16And I suggest that they should be charged with graver offences.
19:21The judge has the right to do so.
19:22But how will you respond, Mr. Davey, when you say this, like cow vigilantes are doing this across the country, there'll be those, I have heard them say this, and I'm only playing devil's advocate, who say these are isolated, stray instances.
19:33Please do not damn an entire community, do not spread fear among minorities, majority Indians do not approve of the actions of the Bajrang Dal.
19:41How will you respond to those?
19:42The Bajrang Dal should not be made larger than life, that only gives them even, they want this publicity.
19:48In fact, they put up videos of their actions so that they get wider publicity.
19:52Look, as I said, Bajrang Dal is only one of the hundreds of outfits today functioning in the country.
20:00And they spring up like this.
20:02They just need a spark.
20:03And the moment there is a spark, 100, 200 people for the sake of publicity, you know, and they do it deliberately.
20:11They like publicity.
20:12They put everything on, you know, social media.
20:15These kind of attacks are put on social media deliberately, which itself is a very serious, you know, issue to be dealt with by law enforcing agencies and the judiciary.
20:25So, according to me, you know, unless you, everybody works together, the executive, the police, the judiciary, and of course, the other society leaders, religious leaders, we can't stop.
20:39For example, RSS today, Mr. Bhagwat again and again talks about, you know, that we should be one nation, we should be united.
20:47Why does Mr. Bhagwat not condemn these incidents?
20:49Why does Mr. Modi not condemn Mr. Modi's, you know, very open to tweeting on birthdays of the Bollywood stars?
20:57But he doesn't want to tweet on these kind of incidents and condemn them publicly.
21:01He goes to a church, you know, to attend the mass and praises the Christian community and Christianity's message, but then doesn't say a word about these attacks against the Christians or against Christmas celebrations.
21:14What's wrong about all these?
21:15The fact also, of course, is you're saying that there needs to be stronger messages from those at the very top.
21:23Silence is not an answer, nor are slogans.
21:26But Yashu Vardhan Azad, at the end of the day, this has to be solved on the ground.
21:31In a country of 1.4 billion people, you expect law and order enforcement is the police's primary duty.
21:37Yes, political leadership has to show the will, has to send out strong messages, but the police itself, is the police weak-kneed or is it getting messaging from the top?
21:48Why is the police?
21:49Because there are professional police officers and surely there are those who say enough is enough, even within the police, who will want to take tough action.
21:57First of all, Rajdi, I differ completely with those who say that, you know, the messaging or that the chief ministers, no chief minister wants that this kind of a Gundagardi should happen in a cafe or anywhere.
22:14Another thing I'll tell you, if the SP takes action, and I'm telling you from my own experience, if it's a tough SP and takes action, he's not transferred every time.
22:25In fact, suppose he takes action against a tough action.
22:28In fact, 80% of the times, nothing will happen to him.
22:33There are odd few cases where this thing happens.
22:35So it is a weak enforcement of law.
22:39And the second thing is that, you know, whenever you are talking about the judges, you're absolutely right.
22:47When you take up a case, it is the judges who set the people on bail.
22:53So judges, I agree with Mr. Daved that they should also not be excused.
22:57So these are, you know, the question is that this is...
23:00No, no, you say weak law enforcement.
23:02No, no, why is there weak law enforcement?
23:05When you say weak, is that systemic?
23:07Is it up to individuals?
23:10Or is it that, you know, there is a fear that if you act against some of these vigilante groups, do they fear retribution?
23:20What is it that they fear?
23:21Nothing.
23:22I don't know what they fear.
23:23That's exactly the point which I'm telling you.
23:26But if the selection and the posting of thanedars and the SPs are done on different considerations than merit, then this is what happens.
23:35If you have a supine leadership, whether at the level of a chief secretary or a DGP or a SP or a collector, this is exactly what you face.
23:45And why they are posted like that is also very well known because of political considerations.
23:50What I'm saying is, if the SP takes a straight and square action, the chief minister or the home minister doesn't tell him, that don't do this, don't do this, don't do this.
23:59So you're saying it is for the officers on the ground to send out the firm message above all else.
24:07You know, Rahul Ishwar, I come back to it.
24:09You are speaking about the spiritual traditions of Hinduism.
24:11Isn't all of this bringing disgrace to Hinduism?
24:14I mean, the Bajrang Dal surely needs to be called out by those who claim to be spiritual Hindus.
24:22They also stay silent.
24:24They need to say that this militancy has no place in Hindutva.
24:27Why don't they say it?
24:28What are they scared of?
24:31Radhi, sir, we should remember how Mahatma Gandhi engaged with RSS.
24:35He went to the Varda camp again in 1947.
24:37He positively appreciated the sankh for the positive Hindu things that they have done.
24:42That point of time, untouchability was an issue.
24:44And Bhagandad ji was honest in saying that we should have Hindu-Muslim unity.
24:47We need such honesty.
24:49I would use pluralism instead of secularism for differentiating it.
24:53We should not toe a Nehruvian secularist line.
24:55We should have active social awareness.
24:57Why don't Hindu spiritual leaders call out the violence?
25:02Why don't all these leaders, why don't they call out the violence?
25:05The Shankaracharyans, the various people who are seen as the symbols ambassadors of Hinduism.
25:11Why don't they call out the violence?
25:12What are they scared of?
25:13People like Srisri Ravishankarji or Sadhguru have time and again.
25:17Or Mata Amradananda Devi has time and again spoken the importance of harmony.
25:21See, hate is a social phenomenon.
25:23In order to defeat hate, we need more harmony.
25:26We need more inclusion.
25:27We need to convince our ultra-righteous brothers.
25:29I haven't heard any of these gurus calling out the bhajarang dal.
25:32I haven't heard them.
25:32Sorry.
25:33I haven't heard them.
25:34You must have heard them.
25:35I haven't heard them.
25:35Calling out them by name.
25:37They have to be named and shame.
25:38I mean, rather, we should cleanse them and get them back from hate.
25:44That was the Gandhian method where he engaged with them and point out that Hindu-Muslim unity is needed and hated is not there.
25:50See, this is a social issue and we have to address it socially.
25:53It's a community issue and we have to address this community.
25:56I agree with you.
25:57More and more Hindu leaders should come out and say hate is not the way.
26:00We need more inclusion and social awareness is the way and not the strong law of the hand.
26:05Of course, they should work.
26:06Okay, I'll leave it there.
26:08I'll leave it there.
26:09I'll leave it there.
26:10I've heard various points of view.
26:11I appreciate my guests joining us.
26:13It's time for my take.
26:15For all the muscle flexing it does, the bhajarang dal is in reality a bunch of cowards.
26:21Cowards, cowards, C-O-W-A-R-D-S, who often target the weak and helpless.
26:27The bhajarang dal isn't going to join the country's fight against cross-border terrorism.
26:30That the army will do.
26:32But what will the bhajarang dal do?
26:33Terrorize common, ordinary people who hold contrarian religious beliefs.
26:38That's their only crime.
26:39This is plain and simple gundagardi that brings disgrace to the great traditions of an inclusive plural Hinduism.
26:46One of the objectives of the bhajarang dal when it was formed through the Vishwa Hindu Parishad
26:50in 1984 was to protect Hindus from anti-social elements.
26:55Now, we need protection from the bhajarang dal.
26:58As part of a wider pariwar, sang pariwar, the bhajarang dal and other Hindutva affiliates
27:03have been emboldened by the growing acceptance and normalization of political Hindutva.
27:09Truth is, the activities of the bhajarang dal are starkly unconstitutional.
27:13Banning the organization won't work since it will resurface in another avatar.
27:18What is needed is strict, even implementation of the law and a political will.
27:25Someone needs to remind the political leadership that appeasing the bhajarang dal is going to
27:30boomerang on them one day.
27:32Any slogan like,
27:33Sapka Saat will sound hollow as long as the goon squads get away with impunity each time.
27:39Think about it.
27:41Think about it.