Proverbs 27 with CSBS (full version)

American Torah

Do not boast about tomorrow, for you do not know what a day may bring.  Proverbs 27:1 ESV  Ultimately, God is in charge. If there is anything good in you, it is because God created it in you, and telling everyone about it will only tarnish it. If you truly have something great to offer the world, it's better to act than to speak. Let God reveal it in his own time.  In this conversation, the Common Sense Bible Study crew discuss Proverbs 27, focusing on good and bad of personal interactions.  From Jay Carper at Common Sense Bible Study (https://CommonSenseBibleStudy.com) and American Torah (https://www.AmericanTorah.com).  This content is free, but I accept contributions via Paypal at https://jaycarper.com/paypal.  Follow me on X: https://jaycarper.com/twitter Follow me on Facebook: https://jaycarper.com/fbat

Transcript

00:00:00oh let's go to verse one do not boast about tomorrow for you do not know what a day may bring

00:00:08and seems pretty self-evident we make all our plans today we we say we're going to do such

00:00:17and such tomorrow and then life gets in the way and everything's a train wreck or god just

00:00:23changes your plans uh you know we were we're going through acts in our local study here

00:00:29and uh we just did act 16 last week right at the beginning of act 16 here it is paul and timothy

00:00:37they went through the region of phrygia and galatia having been forbidden by the holy spirit

00:00:42to speak the word in asia when they came to missia they were trying to proceed to bithynia

00:00:46but the spirit of yeshua would not allow them so you know paul planned out his missionary journeys

00:00:52he wasn't just wandering down the roads i get the impression that when yeshua sent out his 12

00:00:58disciples during his three-year or however long ministry when he sent them out two by two

00:01:05he just sent them in general directions and they just walked and you know whatever town they came

00:01:11to that's where they stayed and taught but here paul has a a specific itinerary he's going to go to

00:01:19this town and then this town and then this town but on the way there god stops him and says

00:01:24no don't go to that one you're not ready for that one yet and the place that god does send him that

00:01:31god does allow him to go he ends up being beaten he's beaten nearly to death and god interrupts our

00:01:39plans you know we like to think that you know god has something better in mind for us and he does

00:01:45but better doesn't always look the way that we expect it to sometimes god has something different

00:01:50in store for us and it's not going to be pleasant but it will be better in the end better for us or

00:01:56better for the people that we encounter or better for your community better for somebody better for

00:02:01the kingdom in any case we go back to proverbs anyone else have any thoughts on that verse well i'm not

00:02:09sure it's when saying do not boast i i think boast is a is a key word there um because you do you make

00:02:19your plans but it's it's almost i'm declaring that tomorrow is going to be sunny or i'm declaring that

00:02:29i'm going to be x or y tomorrow so it's almost like that declaration is a uh is a key factor in that

00:02:38that verse i think yeah i think you're right i mean it it's interesting that you use that word

00:02:45that it's going to be sunny or it's going to sunshine i can't remember exactly what you said

00:02:49um but at least strong's in the definition for the word it uses to shine as one of the possible

00:02:59meanings of the word uh where it says most yeah that's what brown driver big brown driver briggs

00:03:06says that's the primary meaning is to shine but also to praise yeah taking it in that literal sense

00:03:15it would be like saying this great thing is going to happen to me tomorrow or i've i've set all this

00:03:22stuff up to make sure that this great thing happens tomorrow but it's not necessarily going to be so

00:03:29right we can make all the preparations we want but sometimes god changes that the last verses are

00:03:36talking about preparing for the future and they're actually talking about good things that happen

00:03:41you know if you want if you want lasting wealth that's going to continually provide for you

00:03:47it takes time and planning to develop that uh you know the the person in this passage has

00:03:54they have lambs and goats and they have fields apparently they've got crops sown and all of

00:04:02those things take time it's not like you can go buy like a stock you can go buy a stock today and

00:04:09maybe it'll go up tomorrow and you sell it and you made a little bit of money in this case you're

00:04:14buying animals or seed and it could take months to years before you see a any kind of return on it

00:04:21and that first verse in an agrarian culture could really be talking about this kind of scenario

00:04:27saying yeah i planted you know so many acres of barley and three months from now i'm going to be rich

00:04:36maybe so maybe not we'll see what how the weather works out all right let's move on to verse two

00:04:44but another praise you and not your own mouth stranger not your own lips yeah so i'm on a stock

00:04:51website and uh i do a lot of interaction and i get the biggest kick when somebody makes a statement

00:05:00then they like their own statement it's just disingenuous as far as i'm concerned let somebody

00:05:07else toot your horn or speak well of you you know yeah i've done that on social media at times to see

00:05:14if that might you know tweak the algorithms a little bit but i'm pretty sure they're smarter than that so

00:05:19i gave up on it but honestly it reminds me of trump and how he talks about how great everything he does

00:05:27is and yeah i would certainly prefer a president trump over a president biden but he sure does praise

00:05:36himself a lot i mean biden does too of course but he's a little under more understated about it than

00:05:42trump is i was listening to trump talk about the uh the call that he had with somebody in ukraine i

00:05:51don't remember who it was and he was being criticized recently about that call that it sounded like he was

00:05:56trying to bribe somebody or like there was something shady going on and trump is saying you know that call

00:06:03was that was a perfect call nobody could find a flaw in that call it was perfect i don't even know

00:06:08what a perfect call means it just sounded a little silly i mean i know what he was trying to say that

00:06:13he didn't do anything wrong in the call and it was all above board but definitely a strange way to say

00:06:18it all right so verse three stone is heavy and sand is weighty but a fool's provocation is heavier than

00:06:26bull how is a fool's provocation heavy well the key word is fool the key word is fool i think it's

00:06:35so that implies that if somebody with wisdom is provocative then that's okay

00:06:39it's if you respond to provocation a fool is basically going to be taking a uh or making a

00:06:51a specious argument if you will whereas if you have somebody with wisdom their argument will have more

00:06:58more more credence so if you're responding to something that's not wise then um it's sort of

00:07:09reflecting on you sort of uh answer a fool according to his folly yeah yeah yeah lest he be wise in his

00:07:17own eyes and the opposite of course don't answer a fool according to his folly lest you be like him

00:07:23yeah there are two ways to interpret that heavier i mean there's the one sense where heavy means that

00:07:30it carries a lot of weight that it's meaningful or at least influential and the other side where

00:07:38heavy is burdensome and i think it can be both in this case i mean a fool's provocation can be very

00:07:45influential you know the world is run by fools people are motivated by fools they get the mob

00:07:53mentalities you can have a fool on television provoking a mob or on twitter or facebook or

00:07:59wherever provoking a mob into violence and so it becomes very heavy in that in that sense but it's

00:08:07also heavy because it's a burden it's a burden to have to listen to them it's a burden to have to

00:08:12refute them every time they they come up and make a mess it's a burden to have to clean up after them

00:08:18so people give a fool's word too much weight and it puts weight on the people who have to clean up

00:08:26after both of those make sense yeah jerry springer comes to mind yeah you know that's true if you

00:08:34realize it's a three ring circus then it's a three ring circus but if you're giving weight to what's

00:08:39being presented as legitimate wow wrestling hey there's another one yeah yeah or there was that

00:08:47person who i whose name i will not give that bud light made their spokesperson yeah and everybody

00:08:57not everybody of course everybody on a certain side of the culture is raving about this spokesperson

00:09:05and putting his picture up everywhere and like wow isn't this great but on the other hand putting

00:09:12this picture on their beer cans crushed bud light yeah their word carried a lot of weight with certain

00:09:20people but it put a lot of weight on their shoulders too and now they're really paying for it

00:09:26apparently uh some of the stock exchanges are downgrading their stock they're great now oh wow

00:09:33i haven't looked at what their stock values are but i don't know sometimes i doubt the efficacy of

00:09:41boycotts but you know apparently in this case it had an effect because somebody got fired and

00:09:48oh they did fire her yeah well they said that she was taking a an unpaid leave of absence but that

00:09:55sounds like being fired you know that okay okay wrath is cruel anger is overwhelming but who can

00:10:03stand before jealousy you know one thought i had about this is that you know at least you know

00:10:12some people just have a a wrathful nature they're always angry and i don't think that's really what's

00:10:17this is talking about here i think it's talking about an event that you get angry about you get angry

00:10:22for a moment but then that anger subsides and you know you move on you forget about it but jealousy

00:10:30if you get jealous about an event that can eat at you for a long time and it can grow bigger

00:10:36it just kind of seethes underneath the surface at least that's kind of my impression of what he's

00:10:43trying to say here yeah wrath and anger have a they're sort of a they have they typically have a

00:10:51an edge in other words there's a there's a point where anger and wrath just stop i'm angry at a certain

00:11:02thing and and my wrath is at a certain element jealousy has no bounds in other words it it affects

00:11:12other emotions whereas it seems to me wrath and anger yeah they can affect other emotions but i think

00:11:20that they are more more limited or pointed whereas jealousy is more expansive yeah it's uh it's like

00:11:31leaven yeah that's a good way of saying it okay uh verse five better is open rebuke than hidden love

00:11:39so what do you think this means hidden love is it's how do you know if it's not said or not

00:11:48if it's not expressed then how do you know it's love yeah exactly if it's hidden that means you

00:11:56you can't hear it you don't see it there's no evidence of it which means is it really love at all

00:12:03you you can have affection for somebody and not actually do anything good for them

00:12:08but what's the point of that it makes you feel good but it doesn't make the other person feel good

00:12:14it this reminded me let me let me pull it up here on another window i spelled it

00:12:21games two what good is it my brothers and sisters if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds

00:12:28can such faith save them save them suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food

00:12:33one of you says to them go in peace keep warm and well fed but does nothing about their physical

00:12:38needs what good is it in the same way faith by itself if it is not accompanied by action is dead

00:12:43i think that's really talking about the same thing but on the other side what is good about open

00:12:51rebuke well it's clarity it's do this or that you were wrong you're at least giving somebody a clear

00:13:02understanding of what you think yeah yeah and it can actually be helpful

00:13:09if you're giving somebody real constructive criticism it can actually help them improve their lives

00:13:16whereas just your good wishes doesn't really do anything for anybody no and correction it correction

00:13:23can be very loving in that sense like it's actually showing love yeah it doesn't have to be harsh or mean

00:13:31if you care enough to rebuke someone then you obviously care about them yeah so it seems like

00:13:39though with the comparison better is open rebuke than love that is concealed it's almost like saying

00:13:47like if you get if you get rebuke but you don't believe that you see love maybe you should like check

00:13:56yourself it's almost what it seems like to me like if you're tempted to think that open rebuke

00:14:03is not love then is there some is there other evidence of love you know like so that's that's

00:14:11what i kind of thought of when i thought about that yeah well and if there isn't evidence of love i mean

00:14:17if the person really does despise you then at least you know where you stand yeah yeah it does give

00:14:25clarity that's true but it just instead of thinking instead of assuming that i yeah i guess i mean it

00:14:34could be either way but i think that if somebody despises you it would be really unusual for them to

00:14:41care enough to rebuke you unless it's just like i would think they would be more like attacking you

00:14:50or deriding you or something like that as opposed to rebuking you well this is giving me insight into

00:14:56myself one of the things that i'm working with a counselor on right now is my freezing up or my

00:15:09being quiet when i shouldn't be and that's almost like hidden love it's all right i'm not going to say

00:15:16anything because i'm not going to stir the pot but i'm certainly not i'm just doing a self-analyzing

00:15:22right now i'm not i'm certainly not not being encouraging by being quiet you know so that's

00:15:32interesting yeah and you know i've thought about that too especially you know some i know people that

00:15:40i know have needed somebody to tell them something in the last few months and you know i don't i don't

00:15:48want to name names because i don't want to embarrass people just in case anybody knows what i'm talking

00:15:51about but my tendency is to let people do their own thing and not interfere and assume that they don't

00:16:00really want my opinion but that's not really true i mean if i'm actually a friend of somebody

00:16:05then i owe it to them to tell them when i think that they're screwing something up i mean if i don't

00:16:12i mean that that's that hidden love the open rebuke is letting the love out if you love somebody

00:16:17yeah so i'll be quiet so i'm not either i'm not giving open rebuke nor am i giving love

00:16:23i'm my you know the silence is actually and i'm not saying oh i know what to say

00:16:30there's a reason why i'm silent because i don't want to i don't want to say the wrong thing which i

00:16:35can do and uh and and make it a little more difficult than it is but there's a there's a song

00:16:43and it's it's about a a uh i can't remember the name of it but it's about a i love that it's dying

00:16:51and the chorus is something about just say something and that's the point it's your silence

00:17:01is letting this shrivel up and die it's very it's a hard song to listen to but it's uh it's very

00:17:08telling i mean sad you know um that that's yeah open rebuke it's like it's the um hot or cold

00:17:19i'd rather you be hot or cold and then um lukewarm well that's almost a lukewarm admonition

00:17:28this is saying be hot or cold yeah don't don't be hidden yeah i think verse six is very closely

00:17:35related to this faithful are the wounds of a friend profuse are the kisses of an enemy

00:17:40and in this case nobody's nobody's hiding their love here because you know a friend may hurt you

00:17:48i mean honestly if you really care about somebody eventually they're going to hurt you

00:17:53it's just the nature of relationships they're going to hurt your feelings they're going to do

00:17:57something that disappoints you something but on the and of course there's what we were just talking about

00:18:06with with rebuke a good friend will tell you if you're doing something that's going to hurt yourself

00:18:10but on this other side profuse are the kisses of an enemy this isn't hidden love this is hidden

00:18:17enmity this is somebody who really wants to do you harm but is portraying themselves as your friend

00:18:23though they're flattering you telling you oh that that's not going to hurt you that's that's great

00:18:29and or they are you know trying to do good things for you trying to be your friend so that they can

00:18:36get close enough to hurt you on purpose but you know going back to the beer cans and that whole

00:18:45side of our culture those people are all the enemy of each other they are all destroying each other's

00:18:52lives and they are cheering each other on you go and mutilate yourself and pretend to be something

00:18:59you're not because that's great that's awesome but it's not people are destroying themselves

00:19:04and all the people who say that their friends are like defending them in it and saying telling them

00:19:12how brave they are it's awful they need somebody i mean of course they have all half of the country

00:19:18that's trying to tell them that they are wrecking their lives and they just accuse them of being

00:19:23hateful instead but what else can you do so happy night uh let's move on to verse seven this is an

00:19:32interesting one i kind of like this verse one who is full loathes honey but to one who is hungry

00:19:37everything bitter is sweet i've got some thoughts about it but i'm curious to know what y'all think

00:19:43if you're hungry enough it's whatever you eat it's going to be good you know you'll tolerate uh

00:19:50something that's not that should be tolerated just because you're hungry yeah that's a good good point

00:19:57when i think one like a person who's satisfied it's like they don't necessarily want anything else

00:20:05even when something's appealing you know everybody likes something sweet but somebody's really full

00:20:13they're gonna be like passing on i mean i've done that that plenty of times i'm not i'm not

00:20:20exactly the typical norm of a person but i just think that when you're full like you don't need

00:20:31anything else yeah there are there are all kinds of applications for this proverb i mean i can think

00:20:36the angle that you mentioned scott i hadn't really thought of it that way but the idea that just being

00:20:42desperate will lower your standards so that you'll accept things that you shouldn't or that you wouldn't

00:20:47normally i mean that applies across every area of life in you know the things that you want in life

00:20:55your your home your your vehicle your relationships your friendships you know if you've never had a

00:21:01friend before you'll tolerate abuse from somebody who claims to be your friend and then uh what paula

00:21:07was saying about if if you're satisfied if you've got enough then you're not really looking for

00:21:15something more and that can be both good or bad you know if you are happy with what you have you're

00:21:21not out there trying to get the next next thing unless you're just that kind of person in which

00:21:26case you're never going to be happy with what you've got but on the other hand if you are satisfied with

00:21:32what you have and it's not really what you should have or what you could have then it can be a bad

00:21:37thing yeah if you're satiated you can apply some discernment if you are if you have this emptiness

00:21:49you're more likely to embrace anything to fill that hole there's another potential application of this

00:22:02too if you are filling your life with healthy and good things uh you know like if if you're married

00:22:10you have a good wife or good husband you've got a healthy congregation that you attend you've got a

00:22:18good job you're not going to have so many temptations in those areas like if you've got a good relationship

00:22:24with your wife you're not going to be so tempted to stray and same with a wife or husband if you've

00:22:30got a well-paying job that's very that's satisfying that you enjoy doing you're not going to be so

00:22:36tempted to you know indulge in a life of crime like what would be the reason that we all everybody's

00:22:43got their weaknesses and you know you you cover one temptation and you're there's going to be another

00:22:47one but you know if you know what your weaknesses are you can try to fill those weaknesses with something

00:22:54that satisfies them without crossing over a line into something you know into some kind of

00:23:00sin or something um not really criminal is not the word i'm looking for but you know something

00:23:06something that's bad for you and then you want to be you want to be purposeful not reactive right

00:23:13yeah you don't want to be in a position where life is forcing you to accept or pursue things that

00:23:19you wouldn't otherwise do right and this is related to verse eight like a bird that strays from its nest

00:23:26is a man who strays from his home and you know of course birds have to stray from their nest to go

00:23:32and get food they're young excuse me but there's always a danger that when the bird is away finding

00:23:40food that some predator you know a snake or another bird or a raccoon or whatever is going to come and

00:23:47raid the nest and steal the eggs or the chicks or whatever it is so it's good i mean obviously in the

00:23:53case of birds one strategy that birds will employ is to you know one stays at the nest while the other

00:23:59goes hunting but when we're talking about people you can employ that same strategy but there's always

00:24:06the temptation to be looking for more of whatever you know maybe it's more money more more sex in some

00:24:15people's cases more adventure in life whatever it is if it's taking you if it's putting you in a

00:24:23position where your home is unprotected for whatever reason whether it's the relationship that's

00:24:28unprotected or physical home then that could be a danger and not saying that that a lot of the things

00:24:37that we want to pursue you know getting a better job or adventure or any of those things not necessarily

00:24:42bad to want those things or even to pursue them as long as we're taking steps to make sure that our

00:24:48family and you know our base is covered so a bird that strays from its nest what comes to mind to me

00:24:56is a chick that's fallen out of the nest oh yeah more often than not a chick that falls out of its nest

00:25:04is gonna die more often than not sometimes they they're all they're mature enough so that they can

00:25:11survive um or some people will put them back in the nest you know but a man that strays from his house

00:25:21if you're equating it to a chick that falls out of his nest um i'm trying to find there it is is a man

00:25:28that strays from his house so it's suggesting that if you stray from your house you're gonna have a hard

00:25:38time of returning to that it says home not house your your home and i certainly think it's referring

00:25:45to infidelity that's how i'm interpreting it you're gonna have a hard time returning to that home

00:25:51so yeah i think that's true and you're the the baby bird i hadn't thought of it in that way but

00:25:58that's a good point i watched a documentary about wildlife in england if you can believe that

00:26:07there's such a thing but there are these uh golden eagles that live up in scotland and they

00:26:14were showing the whole lifespan of these eagles and you know when the chicks hatch you know they're

00:26:19pretty helpless but they grow up fast and they get pretty big they get almost to the size of adults

00:26:25before they can even fly and they hop around in the trees and they stretch their wings

00:26:29but they can't leave that tree until they're ready to fly because if they leave the tree

00:26:36they won't get back they're not going to get back up in that tree and then they're just easy easy prey

00:26:42for anything that comes along yeah so you you stray from your house you stray from your home you go

00:26:49for infidelity it gets easier to be infidelity you know to be unfaithful again um it's like you you

00:26:58once you've had a bite of sin you will more easily take another bite and often once you start down the

00:27:11road of sin your next sin is going to be a little more worse than the first because you're i'm familiar

00:27:21with that that's in i can tolerate that you know it's just a it's a path that leads to really not a

00:27:29good place yeah whenever you move your boundaries you know you've got now you've got a little bit

00:27:36further that you can stray you can push those boundaries just a little bit further again and a

00:27:40little bit further all right verse nine oil and perfume make the heart glad and the sweetness of

00:27:46a friend comes from his earnest counsel we've got a lot in this chapter about friends who give you

00:27:53good advice and that is a really important thing yeah i think this oil and perfume make the heart glad

00:28:00that seems a bit strange at least to me i don't normally like a lot of smells i don't really care much

00:28:09for perfumes and in scented candles and all that kind of stuff but in in an agrarian culture where

00:28:17everybody isn't bathing every day perfumes and oils could be a life yeah it could be a good deal i mean

00:28:27i think a modern equivalent of this would be a breath of fresh air let's get rid of the smells

00:28:33yeah i think the italian for oil and perfumes is pheromones yeah we're just our sensibilities in

00:28:40america are for like extreme hygiene you know like like we actually bathe too much

00:28:48you know we actually use too many antibacterial everythings and we don't know what it's like to

00:28:54like have our own natural odors and people walk around jay and i don't use cologne or any kind of

00:29:03perfumes and or anything scented and so like when we go places where either there's scenting inside of

00:29:11a home or place of business or if there's people who are wearing lots and lots of cologne it's like

00:29:20it's overwhelming it's really so some of this has a lot to do with like what your you know what your

00:29:29habits are around this kind of stuff i'm sure but i think in general we all know that there are

00:29:36good smells and there are bad smells and um and oils like essential oils even which would have been

00:29:46much more common in this time and that's what we'd be talking about and even perfumes would have been

00:29:53not as artificially fragrant as what we as what we tend to have nowadays so they would have at least

00:30:04been a little bit more natural which which has a positive i think it has a positive effect like

00:30:12much better when it's a natural scent versus something weird and synthetic yeah i want to

00:30:21skip down to verse 14 because it's kind of related to that it's not so much related to the proverb itself

00:30:27but to what some of what we were just saying whoever blesses his neighbor with a loud voice rising early

00:30:33in the morning will be counted as cursing yeah i had coffee with mike this morning and he told me that

00:30:41he was up at 3 a.m and i know you're an early riser scott and ravi you were up at five o'clock

00:30:46this morning and i'm like how are all you people still breathing i don't get it i'm old it happens

00:30:54yeah so i mean different strokes for different folks you know some people love lots of perfumes

00:31:01and smells in their house they've got a scented candle burning all day long every day and they just

00:31:09don't feel good unless they've got some kind of good smells around i don't care for it personally

00:31:15i when i leave the house i don't want to smell like flowers and perfume and i don't particularly

00:31:21like it all that much i mean some some of those things smell nice you know apple pie or that kind

00:31:26of thing that that smells great in small doses but some people really love lots of smells and some

00:31:32people don't love any at all and you just got to know what what people's preferences are

00:31:37in this case somebody is going to the neighbor i think the point is is regardless of whether you

00:31:44want to say it's oil or perfume there is something that brings you joy yeah yeah i think that's the

00:31:49point and then the real essence of this of the proverb is the sweetness of a friend comes from his

00:31:55earnest counsel in other words there are certain things that bring your heart joy and if you have

00:32:04somebody that you consider a true friend you can rely upon their earnestness their um you can rely upon

00:32:15them for sound counsel and and i think that's that's the the bigger point is once you have somebody that

00:32:24you trust that's a good thing yeah yeah for some people that's like smell of coffee at the break of dawn

00:32:34and it's just so desirable to be able to say hey i trust you you know you counseled me many a times we've

00:32:42gone had a beer and and just um just talked and i knew i was always going to get something sound i wasn't

00:32:50going to get any bs i was going to get somebody that was earnestly listening and and giving an opinion

00:32:55and i appreciate you know so oh yeah in in verse 14 the neighbor is he's coming to greet his neighbor

00:33:06early in the morning and you know he's he's blessing him apparently shouting but if your neighbor is not

00:33:12an early riser he's not going to take that well yeah so any the relation to that was that at least

00:33:20the way that i had was thinking of it was that different people appreciate different kinds of

00:33:25things and that particular analogy of the oil and perfume may not relate to everybody right we all yeah

00:33:34it's yeah it's about whatever whatever is a breath of fresh air that takes you out of

00:33:40like wow there's still some good in the world i thought it was interesting the next line doesn't

00:33:47just say do not forsake your friends but your father's friends well that probably has that probably

00:33:55has a lot more to do with the the um generational perspective of the culture at the time you know we

00:34:05we just don't have a lot of that in the western culture where that's something we're missing like

00:34:12where i where i come from we do you know like where i come from like we have a lot more of that

00:34:18because the you know the cajun culture is so yeah so it's a respect your elders type of but it's also

00:34:27i would imagine too that you know because of the the kinds of relationships people built

00:34:32family relationships with other families that not forgetting the friends of your father would be

00:34:43important because that also means that they're your father's friend's children and that kind of thing

00:34:50so it's like extended family to some extent yeah because there's lots of shared experience and

00:35:01even in some cases i'm sure you know covenants and other stuff that probably would have happened

00:35:07yeah i think it's almost like vetting your family has vetted these people

00:35:12yeah someone who was a friend to your father for decades this is a guy that you probably want around

00:35:18i mean if you respect your father you respect his judgment then this is a good guy because he's

00:35:23going to give you good counsel he knows your community he knows he's got wisdom yeah and especially

00:35:30you know like what what paula was saying about the culture they didn't move around a lot i mean you

00:35:35you live in your family's town for 10 15 generations and today we're scattered all over the place i mean

00:35:44ravi was saying how his family is divided up between the united states and all over india

00:35:50and you know i know that all our families are the same way i've got my family scattered over about

00:35:564 000 miles yeah but that leads to the second to the last part of that verse better is a neighbor who

00:36:04is near than a brother who is far away yeah and that sounds almost like not just proximity but also

00:36:10just in terms of like how much you know them how intimate you are with them

00:36:17because yeah like the the closer you are the more likely you are to have shared experience

00:36:23i mean i think we can we can probably you know i'm pretty close to my family

00:36:28and i have lots of long-standing ties with you know extended family and stuff in louisiana

00:36:37but i live in you know i live in texas now and i have for a long time and so there are people here

00:36:44who are not my family that i fellowship with or that i spend time with and that i've known for

00:36:52a good bit of time and have you know really close intimate bonds with in that sense and

00:36:58many times when i think about like people i want to ask for help from or share things with or whatever

00:37:07it tends to be those people that i've built relationship with in proximity

00:37:13but people that are closer in proximity have become closer to me in some cases than family

00:37:22well it's almost that tribe concept that people use a lot now this is my tribe yeah like finding

00:37:30their tribe yeah yeah well a lot like in our in the case here like what i'm talking about there

00:37:37certainly is some of that in the sense of like a lot of the people of course that i would be talking

00:37:42about share my same values you know these people are people of faith you know there's all kinds of

00:37:47things that go into that so yeah i think i think that's true that i'd maybe consider them more my

00:37:55tribe to some extent yeah i mean i'm i'm trying to reestablish relationships in maine

00:38:02and i'm being very selective and it's being very slow unfortunately

00:38:08uh so there but it's almost thematic because we were talking about uh vetting and hey once once you

00:38:21vetted it's uh it'll be a positive thing but that process of vetting takes a while

00:38:28yeah but it will it will pay off it will be worth it once once it's taken place yep yeah yeah

00:38:38you know if you've got uh anything you need to talk about scott you're always welcome to call

00:38:43me but if you've got a flat tire i'm not going to be much help you need those friends in maine

00:38:48right that is true that's a very practical understanding of this verse you're talking about

00:38:58verse 10 jay better as a neighbor who is near than a brother who is far away yeah yeah i mean

00:39:04you think about trouble i love my brother but i'm not going to call him if i've got car trouble

00:39:09yeah it's kind of almost you know like makes me think about the ox in the ditch

00:39:14you know it's like if if your neighbor has an ox in a ditch you're going to go help him

00:39:21it's like yeah they need help and they're going to be looking for somebody who's close by

00:39:26like that's just that's just how it's going to be they're not going to be like

00:39:30you know nobody's going to be calling on a cell phone trying to get somebody to drive from far

00:39:36away yep yep all right let's move on we're not even halfway through the chapter yet i know

00:39:45okay um be wise my son and make my heart glad that i may answer him who reproaches me

00:39:52i think the meaning on that one is pretty clear that you know if you've got if your children are grown

00:39:57and they are showing themselves to be wise and competent and successful if somebody criticizes

00:40:04what you've done in the past you can point to your children and say well looky there i guess i did it

00:40:10right after all and you know it's specifically talking about a son here but i mean the same thing

00:40:17is true of daughters although i it's probably more that a father would brag about his son and a

00:40:24a mother would brag about her daughter but you know of course mothers will brag about all their

00:40:28kids let's talk about a quarrelsome wife okay continual dripping on a rainy day and a quarrelsome

00:40:37wife are like to restrain her is to restrain the wind or to grasp oil in one's right hand

00:40:41and you know i i was mentioning this to paula i think last night or i don't know maybe sometime

00:40:49yesterday but sometimes it seems like solomon is focusing on women you got to watch out for those

00:40:55women they're just trouble but that's an illusion because it's like all the rest is talking about

00:41:03men i mean it's all talking about all people but he's focused on men most of the time he's saying you

00:41:08got to watch out for those fools you got to watch out for those lazy men you got to watch out for these

00:41:12men oh and by the way don't forget watch out for those women that's really more of solomon's approach

00:41:18here this particular no i'm just trying to figure out how to word it this particular proverb is a

00:41:25public walk out of the room for a second yeah i'm gonna i'm gonna save myself here by saying this

00:41:32applies to all kinds of relationships any relationship that you have with somebody who's

00:41:37just trouble who is constantly contradicting you or or tearing you down or is just wild uncontrollable

00:41:47it's the same thing i mean if you don't have a choice about being in a relationship with that

00:41:51person like say this is an employer you have to work with them so how do you do that because it's

00:41:59especially if this is somebody who's your superior i mean how do you restrain that person

00:42:03well you got to find alternative ways to do it you can't just go to them and say hey you're

00:42:10screwing up straighten up because that doesn't work with anybody i mean unless you're best friends

00:42:15and then that might work but if you've got a strained relationship already is going to somebody

00:42:23and telling them that you are you're just you're trouble you cause too many arguments well that's

00:42:30going to start another argument so instead go to the new testament jay where it gives the role of

00:42:36the the obligations of a husband and wife and the wife's duty is to respect her husband

00:42:45now the husband needs to earn that respect as well but this proverb is sim is just sim

00:42:53emblematic of a wife that is not shown respect i think yeah because it's talking about dripping in

00:43:03that in other words i'm going to harp on it harp over and over me you become obsessed with it

00:43:08yeah but if you're stuck in that position ideally of course you would avoid getting into this position

00:43:15in the first place but right you know we all things happen we all get into relationships that

00:43:20that we would have thought better of when we were young or people change over time who knows who

00:43:25knows what happens yeah but if you're in that relationship your options are limited you can get a divorce

00:43:32or you can try to work it out you know get counseling that kind of thing somebody who is

00:43:39determined to be a thorn in your side counseling isn't going to help they don't they don't want to

00:43:44make it work but the other alternative is to find more subtle ways to control them if you think about

00:43:52the other half of this proverb to restrain or is to restrain the wind or to grasp oil in one's right

00:43:58hand well how do you restrain the wind you can't put your hands out and catch it you have to find

00:44:04some other way to do it you can build a wall to block the wind you know to to make the wind go around

00:44:10your orchard you can build a or you can create a funnel or a reservoir or something to catch oil

00:44:18but you're not going to catch it in your hand it's just going to run all over the place

00:44:22so the only way to cope with that is to well you gotta you can't do it yourself of course you've

00:44:29got to have some other tools and whether that tool is other people outside the relationship you know

00:44:35family counselors that kind of thing or some kind of strategy to channel that person's quarrelsome

00:44:43nature into a more productive avenue and i can't tell you how to do that because i'm sure that would

00:44:49the ways to do that would be i mean an infinite number of ways for each person so multiply infinite

00:44:56by you know eight billion people and those are the numbers of ways that you might have to do that

00:45:02and sometimes it's probably not even possible does that make sense yeah it makes it makes sense

00:45:10yeah i'm not a subtle enough person to be able to manipulate people like that and for the most part

00:45:17you don't want to manipulate people but sometimes you have to in order to get unruly people to behave

00:45:23yeah today that would be called managing someone yeah well it's interesting that verse is coupled

00:45:32with 17 iron sharpens iron and one man sharpens another well obviously the dripping

00:45:39noise or of course some wife is not accomplishing iron sharpening iron so there's a difference there i

00:45:49don't know what that difference is but it's certainly the the not the opposite but it's a different

00:45:59facet of dripping what's the difference between dripping and iron sharpening iron well both of them

00:46:06more abrasive yeah i was gonna say that they you you cut out all that like gets change but it's not a very um

00:46:17it's not a very uh targeted type of change it just kind of however the water flows right however that it's like

00:46:28it just it's um but when you talk about iron sharpening iron it's much more targeted it's much

00:46:36more specific about what's going to happen when you rub iron together okay in terms of like the

00:46:43sharpening right the point's gonna get more defined but like you know just just like water

00:46:49you know a river how it carves its way it's it's it's all jagged and you know weird and random

00:46:57it's or at least it seems random and water's just trying to find its level in that sense but

00:47:02but it's just it's not very predictable from our perspective it's not it's definitely not very

00:47:09predictable it's just not as targeted um so it's just kind of like this randomness versus this targeted

00:47:15action gotcha i think any relationship is going to have some kind of dynamic that's going to help

00:47:23develop the people in the relationship and we want that to be a good kind of development i mean

00:47:31everybody has an impact on the people around them sometimes that's good sometimes it's bad

00:47:35but you want to surround yourself with people who are going to improve you who are better than you

00:47:42or compliment you in some way paula and i in our early relationship we've we shaped each other quite a

00:47:50bit i mean we were very different people we're still very different people but we've kind of met

00:47:55in the middle somewhere or at least we're in the middle region because we wanted to be together and

00:48:02you know just spending so much time together eventually rubbed off a lot of those rough edges

00:48:07and that's you know good friends good friendships between men have the same

00:48:14kind of dynamic at times um you know especially when you've got somebody who will confront you

00:48:21when you're in the wrong somebody that you can compete against who is uh maybe whether you admire

00:48:29or you want to outperform for whatever reason you know that that competitive nature can also be a good

00:48:35tool to help you to motivate you to personal growth there are lots of ways that relationships can

00:48:42can shape you and you just have to make sure that you've got good relationships so that they're

00:48:46shaping you for the better instead of for the worse yeah okay the uh verse 18 whoever tends a fig tree

00:48:57will eat its fruit and he who guards his master will be honored lots and lots of stuff about relationships

00:49:02i would bet that 80 to 90 percent of all the proverbs are about relationships yep uh and this one of

00:49:10course is about literally about guarding your employer like guarding his interests if you know

00:49:18you you get your sustenance from your employer he's the one who's paying your your bills you're giving

00:49:22your housing all of that so if you want that to continue or if you want more of it then you make

00:49:28yourself valuable to your employer i think there's a i saw a study recently jay just to piggyback on what

00:49:35you were talking about in relationships there's a study um and paul you're probably aware of this

00:49:41showing different types of iq and the ultimately the most successful and typically you're talking

00:49:52financial but you could be talking relational as well the most successful people were those that had a

00:49:59high relational iq not necessarily a high iq and that sort of speaks to what you're talking about

00:50:06yeah you know yep yeah i think that's really true i mean i think that for many people

00:50:14at least in modern western culture wealth and finances wealth in financial ways

00:50:23seems to be the perspective around like success but for many people who are financially successful

00:50:35they also have a lot of relational capital they have a lot of relationship capital

00:50:43yeah that helped them to get there but historically like if you look at you know even in an agrarian

00:50:51society or just other uh more traditional cultures you know relationships are really important they've

00:50:58always been important for survival in tribal cultures you know just because we didn't all have safe

00:51:05homes to live in and whatever and so relationship capital has been a source of wealth for many years

00:51:15um well look at the whole masonic organization good battery different it's right it's on relationship

00:51:23and and you will benefit because of your relationship if you know the you know certain right people

00:51:30that's more or less what they're saying yeah yeah fraternities sororities even the the

00:51:37jewish culture you know the jewish religion and culture like combined like right whole culture is

00:51:46very what you know a lot of people call nepotistic but like they're very much interested in supporting

00:51:52one another um and that a lot of that comes out of persecution but again a value for intergenerational

00:51:59relationships and all that kind of stuff really kind of plays into that because there's also their

00:52:05perspective around if you succeed i succeed and in america it's like i want to be the top dog

00:52:13i want to succeed and i have to like climb over everybody to succeed and i have to be like

00:52:19because it's all about me and we just we have kind of a warped sense of that in this country versus

00:52:26how about if we all rise together like if we all come up together

00:52:30and i think this also applies like in in a sense like to marriage it's like you know you become

00:52:39two become one it's like if if there's always contention and somebody trying to let come out

00:52:47on top and win whatever that means be the winner in all the arguments or whatever nobody's winning

00:52:55if you look at at two becoming one it's like if in my situation i look at it if jay wins i win

00:53:02so i'm always rooting for jay i'm like i'm always trying to you know i shouldn't say like always i

00:53:09mean we we do have our our disagreements but i think in general like i understand the principle

00:53:15behind like if i'm tearing him down or if i'm trying to beat him at some game it's i'm not winning

00:53:23right right right yeah yeah you have to have to cultivate those relationships have to encourage

00:53:32them look out for each other's interests not just relationships either i mean if there's anything

00:53:37good that that's giving you good returns in life yep and you have to guard that and cultivate it

00:53:43yep the last proverb in here in this chapter is also closely related to that you know when the grass

00:53:51is gone a new growth appears and the vegetation of the mountains is gathered the lambs will provide

00:53:56your clothing and the goats the price of a field there will be enough goat's milk for your food

00:54:00for the food of your household and maintenance for your girls or your maidservants depending on how you

00:54:04translate that and this is about cultivating the things that you know are going to have a good return

00:54:09and that can be relationships it can be your investments

00:54:14your business whatever it is that is a positive force in your life cultivate it and work on it

00:54:23you know none of these things nothing really good in life is going to have instant returns

00:54:28i mean there are there are very rare exceptions but for the most part everything good in life comes

00:54:34after months or years or decades of patience and planning and work just the way life is

00:54:44and it would be awesome if we all live to be as old as methuselah and noah but you know we've got

00:54:5180 to 100 years and that doesn't change that we still have to plan in the things you know success

00:54:59comes later in life with after years of discipline and toil that's real that's a really interesting

00:55:08thing that you mentioned about like you know wish we wish we all had as long lives as methuselah and

00:55:15noah but you know thinking about that and thinking about how short our lives are i think it also

00:55:23you know just because i know that we don't have that perspective necessarily in the west of

00:55:31multi-generational forward thinking you know and planning but it really does speak to that too

00:55:41which is like if we have so much shorter of a time on this planet than man once did

00:55:49then how much more effort should we also invest in our children so that our children as soon as they

00:55:56become of age can begin investing whether that means and i'm not just talking about financially

00:56:02i'm talking about in all the different ways because in america at least you know we we like work our

00:56:09tails off till we're about to like die and then we retire and then of course most of us and then we die

00:56:16um and so there's like this this like and i i say that i mean it's not exactly how it happens

00:56:24for everybody but i think ultimately the perspective around it is like then where's the reward you know

00:56:30and and i think that we can certainly work hard and see a reward and enjoy things if we have the right

00:56:37perspective and the right relationships and and stuff but i do feel like this also points to the idea

00:56:45that like if we do this in our relationships with our children even then we may be able to enjoy

00:56:53the fruits of our labor earlier because it like if we were entrepreneurial and we build a business

00:56:59and our children join the business and continue to build that business well we could probably retire

00:57:06earlier like there's all these different ways in which that kind of plays out but also relationally

00:57:12also uh like built helping them build relationships helping them become people who know how to build

00:57:18relationships like those things can be valuable because they can build relationships that help them

00:57:25build their lives so all those things really factor into this too and you know from the opposite

00:57:33perspective like not having as much time on on this earth yep all right so is there anything else in

00:57:39this chapter we need to talk about they had the the verses some of the verses right before it

00:57:45um oh well there is verse 19 that we didn't get to that was an unusual one 19 yeah and there's also

00:57:55well just when i was looking at 22 though you pound the fool in a mortar with a pestle along with crushed

00:58:01grain his foolishness still will not leave him and then it says know well the condition of your flocks

00:58:08and pay attention to your herds for riches are not forever nor does a crown endure to all generations

00:58:14that just may and that came before what you were just reading in 25 and that whole nor does a crown

00:58:23endure for all generations made me think about you know you can plan and you can try to um build and

00:58:30invest and all these things but that's not going to ensure that you have

00:58:37wealth or whatever for every generation things are going to change things are going to happen

00:58:44um yeah but on the other hand if you don't plan for it if you don't work for that wealth and for that

00:58:51gain it's definitely going to go away yeah exactly yeah you won't have it to begin with yeah so i just

00:58:59think it's interesting like the caution about riches are not forever like obviously we have some

00:59:05modern ways to build trust and all these things that can some somewhat ensure yeah until the

00:59:14monetary system fails but the point isn't that even then those we have ways to try to do that

00:59:20yeah but we we try to find ways to do that right um so i think it's funny like

00:59:25we still can't just guarantee against against loss throughout every generation yep that is true

00:59:36but you were talking about 19 as as in water a face reflects the face

00:59:42yep so the heart of a man reflects the man yep and i i tried understanding this just like

00:59:50just reading it without consulting commentaries and i really didn't get it but then when i started

00:59:56reading commentaries i it became a little more clear and i don't think most of the commentaries

01:00:02even get this right i think that they're missing the point let me pull up is it john wesley i was

01:00:09looking at so one man resembles another in the corruption of his nature i don't know what that has to do

01:00:17with this with this proverb i'm pretty sure that's not the point yeah that one's too long

01:00:23there is no difference between men by nature only the grace of god makes the difference

01:00:28like okay again what is this what does that have to do with this proverb but here's what i think it's

01:00:34saying water is frequently a metaphor in spirit i mean in scripture for spirit or it can be a metaphor

01:00:42for deep thought you know early in proverbs solomon talked about how the heart of a man is like deep

01:00:48waters because you can't tell what's going on down there but in most waters you can observe something

01:00:56about the bottom of the water by observing the top you can see if there are boulders underneath or you

01:01:02can see the currents by observing the water on top and it says the heart of a man reflects the man

01:01:09but the heart of a man is these are the things that he's thinking and you can't really see what a

01:01:16man is thinking at least not deep down but you can look at the surface you can see what he's doing

01:01:22you can see what he says and these things are going to give you hints at what's going on underneath

01:01:27so just as looking at your face the reflection of your face on the top of the water will give you

01:01:33hints about what's going on underneath the water observing the behavior of a person

01:01:38will give you strong clues about what's going on underneath that person

01:01:43as you know like like forrest gump says stupid is as stupid does

01:01:48you you know that somebody is being a fool because they're behaving like a fool there's that means

01:01:52there's foolishness in his heart if somebody is behaving wisely and making good choices

01:01:57that means he has wisdom in his heart and i'm pretty sure that's what this is talking about

01:02:03yeah that's a good point the mortar and pestle

01:02:07of course this isn't true in all cases because solomon also talks about how you know the rod is

01:02:16for the backs of fools well what what would be the point of using a rod on a fool if he never learns

01:02:21from his mistakes if he never learns from punishment this is a principle that certainly there are you know

01:02:28some fools learn some fools don't some of them doesn't matter what you do to them they're never

01:02:33going to learn do you for those people their only hope is to let them fail let them suffer the

01:02:39consequences of their foolishness no matter how bad it gets because there's nothing else you can do

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