- 6 weeks ago
Union Environment Minister Bhupinder Yadav said misinformation was being spread about the Supreme Court's decision on the Aravalli range.
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00:00Hi there, I'm Sonal Merotra Kapoor. This is 5 Live.
00:04Today on the program, two stories that have got our attention.
00:08You must have heard about the depleting Aravalli forest.
00:11A lot of controversy is erupting over it.
00:14But what exactly does allowing of mining across these ranges mean for Delhi and its air pollution?
00:22What are ecologists saying, environmentalists saying versus what the government is saying?
00:28That and then in the second half, we look at air pollution yet again,
00:33but from the lens of what exactly is the cure?
00:37Now, latest study by Stanford has come out, which says that if the current rate of measures were to continue,
00:45guess by when India will manage to clean its air?
00:50You have a number in mind, maybe 10 years, 20 years, at the most 50 years.
00:56You're all wrong.
00:57Because according to the study, it will take 200 years for India to clean up its air if we don't get our act right.
01:08More on that coming up on the program.
01:10First up, the headlines.
01:11Bangladesh continues to simmer after a spate of violence that rocked the nation after Usman Haidi's killing.
01:20Another youth leader of the National Citizens Party has been shot dead in the head.
01:26His condition is critical and is currently undergoing treatment.
01:28Government has alleged misinformation on the Aravalli Rao.
01:34Environment Minister says the Aravalli range is still protected and that only 0.19% of the total area is eligible for mining.
01:43Environmentalists not quite buying it.
01:44Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister Yogi Adityanath on Monday took a wild dig at Samajwadi Party Chief Akhilesh Yadav during the State Assembly session
01:55amid a heated debate over the alleged illegal trade of codeine-based cough syrups.
02:02Madurai's Tiru Paran Kundran Hill Shrine is witnessing tense scenes over the Kartigai Deepam.
02:13On camera, protesters had sharp verbal altercations with Tamil Nadu police after being stopped from lighting the Deepam at the ancient hilltop stone pillar or the Deepadun, despite citing court orders.
02:29TVK Chief Vijay has held a major Christmas event in Mahabalipuram.
02:35This outreach is the first such step by the TVK and is being seen as a significant minority outreach ahead of the 2026 Tamil Nadu Assembly elections.
02:45After Congress Chief Malik Ardun Kharge defended the high command over Karnataka CM Nataka, Karnataka Home Minister Chief Parameshwara has met with Kharge.
02:55CM Siddharamaya has been invited to Delhi for the CWC meet on the 27th of December.
03:01TVK Suvkumar may also travel to Delhi tomorrow.
03:05Mahayuti Alliance swept the Maharashtra local body elections, winning 207 posts.
03:12In contrast, the opposition Mahavikasa Gadi won 44 only, which has triggered a rift with the coalition.
03:18The Thakre-led Shiv Sena faction had actually targeted the Congress over the loss.
03:24After the Maharashtra local body polls, all eyes are now on the BMC elections.
03:29The Thakre brothers will be coming together for the crucial polls.
03:32Shiv Sena UBT, that's Udhav Bhai Thakre.
03:34MP Sanjay Raut has said that seat-sharing talks between the party and the MNS have been finalized and that a formal announcement will be made soon.
03:42The High Court has issued a notice to Sonia and Rahul Gandhi seeking a response to the National Herald case.
03:50ED had challenged the trial court order in the Delhi High Court, but the Delhi Court refused cognizance of ED Charshid.
03:58Back-to-back trade deals for India after Oman and UK.
04:03Now, Free Trade PAC has been signed with New Zealand.
04:07India has guarded the dairy sector from the New Zealand imports.
04:11All right, let's cut across to some latest developments coming in on the Aravalli Rao.
04:24Now, Union Environment Minister has spoken on the issue.
04:29He said misinformation is being spread on Aravalli.
04:32He also went on to say that no mining will be allowed in the Delhi NCR region.
04:36But what exactly is that?
04:38He also went on to say no mining lees except for critical need.
04:43Also said that Supreme Court has upheld government's green concern.
04:47And that Supreme Court has busted all fake allegations.
04:51The committee recommends that to ensure sustainable mining in Aravalli Hill and Range.
05:02No new mining lees except in case of critical strategic and atomic mineral.
05:08So, there are no mining mining.
05:15There are no protected areas.
05:18Because in Aravalli Hill, in Aravalli Hill, there are 4 tiger reserves.
05:24Aravalli Hill Hill, there are 20 wildlife century.
05:28Thank you very much.
05:58So that's the environment minister, Bhubendra Yadav, there saying that there is misinformation being spread.
06:21But is that the case?
06:22Well, next we bring you a ground report.
06:24So look at that very carefully.
06:26Because protests have erupted across North India after the Supreme Court redefined Aravalli Hills, one of the world's oldest geological formations.
06:34Now the Aravalli span across states like Rajasthan, Haryana, Gujarat and the capital Delhi.
06:40Under the new definition, an Aravalli Hill should be at least 100 meters above the surrounding terrain.
06:45Two or more such hills within 500 meters of each other, along with the land between them, are considered an Aravalli range.
06:52Now environmentalists have raised concerns that defining Aravalli Hills with height risks leaving numerous lower, scrub-covered, but ecologically critical hills unprotected from mining and construction.
07:06Environmentalists also warn that weakening the Aravalli protection will increase dust and particulate matter in Delhi NCR.
07:14By now you know what it will do to pollution.
07:16It will accelerate groundwater depletion.
07:18It will worsen heat extremes.
07:20It will push the desert eastwards, permanently damage the fragile ecosystem that cannot regenerate easily.
07:27They argue that once the Aravallis are flattened or built over, the damage is irreversible.
07:35The government, however, insists that the new definition is meant to strengthen regulation and bring uniformity and not dilute protection.
07:44But is that really happening on the ground?
07:47My colleague Sharath sent us this report.
07:49Aravalli, the ancient mountain range that has stood for centuries, is now at the centre of a storm.
08:04The Supreme Court's new definition has stripped protection from nearly 90% of the hills, sparking massive protests from Gurugram to Jaipur.
08:19Rajasthan, Jarkar, pass me on!
08:21Aravalli, pass me on!
08:22Yes, pass me on!
08:23Aravalli, pass me on!
08:24Yes, pass me on!
08:25Under the revised norms, only hills of 100 metres or taller are protected and ranges must have two or more such hills within 500 metres.
08:35Critics say this strips protection from 90% of Rajasthan's Aravallis, opening the gates to unchecked mining.
08:42If the Supreme Court doesn't take this guideline back, then we are the people of this country who will go to this country and will give a big blessing and give a big blessing.
08:56Our power is our power!
08:58Our power is our power!
09:00Activists are taking to the streets, raising slogans and staging sit-ins to stop mining and protect India's ecological lifeline.
09:07Protests erupted in Gurugram outside Minister Raunarveer Singh's office, in Udaipur streets and on Alwar Hills, as citizens and lawyers demanded urgent action.
09:24However, the Union Environment Minister has pushed back, calling the charges baseless.
09:29He has asserted that only a tiny 0.19% of the total 1.4 lakh square kilometre Aravalli region is open for mining, while an overwhelming portion remains protected.
09:44The Supreme Court has said that it should be the same definition of Aravalli.
09:50Where it will go to the bottom, there is a protection of the 100 metres.
09:54The opposition has slammed the Supreme Court move.
09:57Calling the new Aravalli definition, a direct threat to the region's ecology.
10:04We are talking about the country and talking about Hindu-Muslims, and we will take a vote and take a vote.
10:10The people have become a movement in this way.
10:12All people want to be banned from Aravalli, and not to open for the mines and mines.
10:20Is the Aravalli range under danger, or are the charges exaggerated?
10:25The ecological fight is on.
10:27With Devankur Wadavan, Bureau Report, India Today.
10:57We are talking about this.
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11:55All right.
12:24And Sharath is live with us as well at this point.
12:26Sharath, can you say this is true?
12:29After watching your report,
12:31I feel that there is one of the issues
12:33that you should allow legal mining or not.
12:36But you are saying, leave it legal.
12:38When it was not allowed,
12:40it was so illegal mining.
12:42Now, if it was legal,
12:44then what will happen?
12:46Do I understand this right?
12:54Yeah.
12:56Yeah.
12:58Yeah.
12:59Yeah.
13:00Yeah.
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13:02Yeah.
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13:07Yeah.
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13:14Yeah.
13:16ले जा कर दिखाता करीब 300 मीटर नीचे तक चली गई है पहाड़ी आप देखिए गाउं के पेरिफेरी को देखिए किस तरह से वो गाउं नजर आ रहा है जहां पर कहीं भी भी जो भी स्फोर्ट होता है तो इनके घरों में दरारे आती हैं और 300 मीटर तक ये लीगल है 2008 में 2003 म
13:46पार ये लीज दिया जाने लगा ये लीज दिया गया है उसी समय 2019 में जब अशोग गहलोत ने रिचर्ड बर्फी फर्मूले के तहट अरावली हिल्स के 100 मीटर के नीचे की पहाड़ी को अरावली नहीं माना और 300 मीटर नीचे तक खुद आई हुई है तस्वीर हमने आपको
14:16पूरे इलाके को खुद डालते हैं और अपने लीज को बचा कर रखते हैं और उसके बाद नीचे तक चले जाते हैं अब भुपेंद रियादों बार बार कह रहे हैं कि कन्फ्यूजन है लोग समझ रहे हैं कि जमीन के तल से 100 मीटर हम तो कह रहे हैं कि नीचे जितनी गहरा�
14:46पर एलाउ किया गया है वहाँ पर 160-180 फीट की पहाड़ी को काड़ दिया गया और जहां पर आज के दिन में लाइसेंस दिया गया है राज स्थान सरकार के तरफ से वहाँ पर 300 मीटर तक अंदर चले गये हैं और यह कहकर कि 60 फीट उची पहाड़ी थी से इसे अरावली नही
15:16लगा दी अशोग गये सुप्रीम कोट में कहा कि हाकार मत जाएगा राजस्थान में और जो चल रही उसे चलने दिया जा सुप्रीम कोट मान गया लेकि नियम बनाने के लिए कहा अशोग गहलोत ने 2003 में रीचरट बर्फी फर्मूला लेकर आये 100 मीटर वाला 2010 में फिर गये
15:46और गुजरात में फिर लागू करना चाहते हैं इस इसे लेकर यहां पर विवाद है वरना सौप्र फर्मूला राजस्थान में लागू है और आकर जिसको जो कह रहा है कि 100 मीटर फर्मूले के तहत अरावली जो है वो सुरक्षित होगी उसे आकर यह देखना चाहिए कि हो क
16:16So that was my colleague Sharath actually coming to us from Alwar there.
16:21But if you are still confused because environment is a little bit like that, it takes a little bit of time to understand the implication.
16:27Let's clearly draw the air pollution connection in India with the depleting Aravallis, all right?
16:35Spend the next 30 seconds with me to understand this.
16:37Now the Aravalli judgment matters to Delhi's air because it weakens the protection of the natural system that helps limit dust pollution
16:45reaching the capital. How?
16:47Now Aravalli range sort of lies southwest of Delhi and act as a physical and ecological barrier between the Thar Desert
16:54and the Indo-Gangetic Plains.
16:57Their rocky terrain, vegetation reduces, wind-blown dust, stabilized soil and you know also slow the movement of
17:04sort of particulate matter towards Delhi NCR.
17:07What the judgment changes, the ruling allows large tracts of Aravalli land mainly in Haryana to fall outside
17:15the forest protection if they were never officially notified as forest.
17:19This does not order development but it removes an automatic environmental safeguard that earlier
17:26restricted mining, construction and land clearing.
17:28Now what this affects and why it affects air quality.
17:32Now a significant share of Delhi's particulate pollution, especially PM10, comes from dust,
17:38construction, activity, mining, exposed soil and heavy vehicle movement across NCR.
17:43The Ravalis help limit this dust.
17:46So abhi gajo pollution hai.
17:48This 800 AQI also that it goes to sometimes, that is after that protection.
17:52So imagine what will happen if that also goes away.
17:55When hills are cut, vegetation is cleared, land is flattened, distributions rise and travel easily
18:01from you know all the way to Delhi, particularly during the dry windy months.
18:05Construction, mining, unknown dust source.
18:07Environmental agencies have consistently identified construction and mining as a major contributor as well.
18:13The cumulative impact, Delhi's winter smog is already driven by multiple sources,
18:17unfavourable metrological, you know high regional dust loads as well.
18:21All of that is only set to worsen and why this is not reversible?
18:25Because once a Ravalis land is mined or concretised, their dust control function is effectively lost.
18:35Regeneration or blasted rock is extremely slow, making the air quality impact long term rather than seasonal.
18:43The bottom line here is the judgment does not create pollution overnight but it removes the natural buffer that Delhi sort of relies on in an air shed already beyond safe limits.
18:56So that's the connection really, but let's take it forward with the experts now.
19:01Vimbleyentu Jha, environmentalist and CEO of Green Map is joining us now.
19:06Also with us is Vaishali Rana, environmentalist and conservationist, trustee at the Ravali Bachao Citizens Movement.
19:11I want to get Vaishali's first reaction to what the environment minister has just said.
19:17He said that there are lies being put out.
19:19He also said that the construction area is 0.19% and there is nothing to worry.
19:24This is all speculation or propaganda in his words.
19:28But we have already given multiple examples and reports and representations at Centrally Empowered Committee, the CEC, where illegal mining is going on in the Ravalis in Haryana.
19:43And also we had a petition filed in NGT, where there was an order given last year in 2024, where multiple illegal mining sites were reported and Haryana State was instructed to submit an action plan report to control, stop, seize the illegal mining and a mitigation plan to be submitted for the damages that have been done.
20:05It has been more than a year and no report has been submitted in the illegal mining matter.
20:10Just last month in November, to CEC, we submitted a very elaborate, detailed report where in Cherkidadri mining is going on as we speak today, right now, where they have violated all the environmental claims.
20:24By the way, in Cherkidadri, the mining is legal, but Mr. Bhupendra Yadav said that there is no mining happening in Haryana and mining is not allowed in Haryana.
20:32But in Haryana, in Cherkidadri, mining licenses are officially being given out and mining is happening in Cherkidadri.
20:37Not just Haryana, Rajasthan as well.
20:40Sharad just showed us that there are tenders floated and there are crushers he saw on site.
20:45Yes, yes, yes, yes.
20:46And there are three examples, like in Cherkidadri, where the miners are violating all their environmental clearances, they have burst open the underground aquifers and the mining pits have gone much below the underground aquifers.
21:00There are channels and streams which are coming out and the pits are filled up with water and they're using suction pumps to drain out the water so they can go further down.
21:08All these reports have been submitted in CEC, but CEC is not talking about it.
21:12And then just last year we had a tiger which, you know, from Ferriscutt Tiger Reserve National Park, it came to Haryana in Rewadi.
21:21And for a month he was camped here in Rewadi.
21:23So the CEC report also says the areas where mining cannot be allowed, they say that buffer zones of national parks, national parks, tiger corridors, but have they defined the tiger corridors?
21:37My point is a tiger from Sariska is traversing all the way to Haryana.
21:41We have multiple tiger corridors like this.
21:43None of them have been identified.
21:44So the wetlands, two kilometers, they talk, earlier they submitted a report, they said two kilometers radius from a wetland, no mining will be allowed.
21:54They watered it down and they said 500 meters, no mining will be allowed in 500 meters from a wetland.
22:00So this is how they watered down everything.
22:03All right, Vimgleentu Jhaap, you know, when it comes to the ecosystem, it's a complex issue.
22:09A lot of understanding is still to be seen.
22:11Of course, reports on the ground are showing a very grim picture.
22:15Activists are also up in arms and activists seem to be united on this issue across states.
22:20It's not one organization, right?
22:22And what Sharad sent, the report that he showed us from Alwar to what Vaishali is pointing out in Haryana to what we are seeing in other states as well.
22:32But help me understand this.
22:35How does depletion of Aravalli impact the air and the AQI of the country directly?
22:43What exactly is the connection?
22:46So Sonal, I think your report was exhaustive enough.
22:48And it's not just the air that gets affected because of a depleted or a depleting or further depletion of Aravallis in that sense.
22:55Because what we are talking, we need to understand that almost 25 percent of Aravallis has already disappeared because of illegal mining.
23:03And as you rightly said that, imagine if it's if 25 percent depletion has taken place or plundering has taken place when the mining was actually illegal.
23:10Imagine when these so-called redefinition takes place and then the entire Aravalli, almost 90 percent of Aravallis is going to become expendable.
23:18Now, connecting that to not just one ecosystem phenomena called air and control of air, fine, we can we can do that.
23:25But reality, as you said, that it's not just that, it's also climate, it's also water sustainability, it's the heat stress, it's overall ecology of the entire area that actually in many, many ways,
23:35directly and indirectly is defined, the feature that we're talking about, the weather pattern that we're talking about, everything is defined by this natural resource called Aravalli.
23:45And it might just look as if these are not as grand as the Himalayas, because not every mountain range has to be a particular, you know, cutoff or a threshold.
23:54Everything has a relevance. A lake has a relevance and therefore a river has a relevance and an ocean also has a relevance.
24:01With regard to air, you know, it's very, very important for us to understand that this entire corridor that we have, and if you look at the expanding Thar,
24:08so one of the things that we talk about is that desertification or furthering of desertification that can only be blocked by this vegetation,
24:16the natural vegetation ecosystem that exists between the Thar and this particular region.
24:21And mostly, in the sense, of course, we talk about cities like Delhi, but entire area of Indo-Gangetic, you know, in a very, very strategic way,
24:29for almost two billion years, have been largely protected because of this corridor.
24:33Also, as in one is the entire, you know, the sand and the dust from the other area,
24:41but also in terms of sink that we're talking about.
24:43At the end of the day, right now, imagine when the entire Delhi NCR is gasping for breath and we're talking about air quality and we're looking at,
24:50and in the same breath, when the Honourable Minister was talking about so-called plantation,
24:54just because you would perhaps plant a lac trees more, that does not give you a license to further, to degrade the Arab release in that sense.
25:02And if you look at historically, if you look at major milestones, by the way, in terms of something which was actually banned in 2009,
25:11or something which was banned in 1990, how can it actually be appropriate to really plunder further in 2024 or 2025?
25:19I get your point, but I really quickly want to find this out from Vaishali.
25:22Vaishali, we keep, you know, attacking the government and saying they've done this,
25:26but the fact is this order came from the Supreme Court.
25:29Supreme Court must have hurt both sides.
25:31So what's happening there?
25:33Were you not able to make your case?
25:35What exactly was the rationale behind Supreme Court allowing it?
25:39It's a massive order with a lot of implications.
25:42Yes, the point and the surprising part is that in 2010, the same Supreme Court report was submitted where they spoke of,
25:52they had spoken of a 100 meter definition for Arab release and Supreme Court had not accepted it in 2010.
25:58So what happened in these 15 years that now they have accepted it?
26:01That time Supreme Court in its order very clearly stated that this definition was not acceptable and they involved,
26:07they said that a technical agency should be involved like Forest Survey of India and they should come back with a,
26:12you know, a satellite imagery and everything where they talk about, where they define the Arab release.
26:17And they did not accept the 100 meter definition.
26:19So that time when it was rejected, what happened at this time, it is accepted.
26:23And at a Ravli, which was, it is a moment we are doing a due diligence and we are preparing our PIL.
26:28Let's see, very soon we would be filing it also.
26:31And another thing that I have to point out, like here, when we were talking about,
26:34so they have Central Empowered Committee also when they, when they, when they submitted a report last year,
26:40they defined the areas where mining would be allowed and where it should not be allowed.
26:45Or like what I was talking about just some time back.
26:47So, yeah.
26:49So when I said that mining cannot be allowed in plantation areas for Haryana specifically,
26:55if I talk, so any area which comes under plantation,
26:59it, Campa funds are the compensatory plantation funds that come, every state receives.
27:05So any area which can't come under Campa or where state government has put in money to do plantation,
27:11mining would not be allowed here.
27:13But in Haryana, almost all Arablis, all Arablis come under Campa.
27:17Almost practically almost all Arablis.
27:18I think those pictures of protests are speaking a thousand words here.
27:22So let's wait and watch on what exactly happens here.
27:24And let's see, I don't know if there is a follow-up petition on this.
27:27Yeah, this is a protest we did day before yesterday.
27:29Day before yesterday.
27:30Yeah, but I don't know if this is going back to the Supreme Court
27:32because that's the only way we find a solution here
27:35because government has a limited role to play in this.
27:38It is just an order that they are following from the Supreme Court.
27:40But I have to thank you both for the moment for joining us on this discussion.
27:50Let's cut across to some updates coming in.
27:52Delhi Chief Minister Rekha Gupta has just concluded a meeting on pollution.
27:57Traffic congestion, we are told, was discussed in that meeting.
27:59And they also discussed how to prevent traffic congestion at major hotspots in Delhi.
28:07What else was really discussed in this meeting?
28:09Let me cut across to my colleague.
28:13Sushant Mera joins us for the very latest on this.
28:15Sushant, tell us what more was discussed.
28:17Have they talked about BS6 levels?
28:19Because that seems to be the only thing that's working
28:22and constructively bringing down the pollution levels
28:25even if it is slightly in the past couple of days.
28:27I want to tell you that in Delhi, the level of pollution is increased.
28:34And today, there was an important event called traffic concession.
28:39Because of Delhi's major hotspots, especially like Anand Vyar, Chandi Chowk,
28:43I.T.U., there is a lot of traffic concessions.
28:45There is a lot of discussion, some of the facilities have been taken.
28:49And that's why the traffic concession is not allowed to be in hot spots.
28:54And that's why the traffic police are also guided.
28:58And that's why it's not allowed to be in traffic concessions.
29:00But a major update I will give you to this meeting.
29:02In this meeting, the Delhi government wants to be out of the days
29:06that the traffic concession in Delhi and NCR
29:08the traffic consumption in Delhi and in NCR, the traffic consumption will be reduced and there will be a different relationship.
29:17The government can be a government. Some days Ola, Uber, which are private companies,
29:22they will drive private buses so that the NCR will come to Delhi and their private cars will come to Delhi.
29:33For example, the government can run their buses in Ola Uber so that Ola Uber can run their buses in Delhi and NCR.
29:47For example, the government can run their buses in Ola Uber so that the government can run their buses in Ola Uber.
30:07For example, the government can run their buses in Ola Uber.
30:18The government can run their buses in Ola Uber.
30:22But the government can run their buses in Ola Uber.
30:28The government wants to run 10-100 rupees so that the government can run their buses in Ola Uber.
30:39So the government can run their buses in Ola Uber.
30:41So, the government can run their buses in Ola Uber.
30:43So, the government can run their buses in Delhi.
30:48All right. So, Shant Mehera, we leave it there.
30:51Ola, an Uber being urged by government to run not just cabs but buses now.
30:55That's going to be interesting. Let's see how that actually has an impact.
30:59But for the moment, let's move on from this story and bring you another insight on air pollution.
31:07So, how long will it take to clean up India's air?
31:11Not just Delhi, you know by now cities across India have been choking on toxic air for months now.
31:17And this is not a one-off crisis. It's a problem that has repeated itself year after year with little lasting relief.
31:23Now, a new global study explains why clean air may still be not just months or years but generations away.
31:35Now, you know by now if you've been watching this program that a major contributor to air pollution in India is vehicular emission.
31:43And countries' continued dependence on fossil fuels.
31:47And there is only one proven way to cut those emissions.
31:51A rapid shift towards clean and renewable energy.
31:55But that shift is moving painfully slowly.
31:59Researchers at Stanford University analyzed that shift, looked at the transition and also analyzed the carbon emission and clean energy transition across 150 countries and their findings are blunt.
32:15At the current pace of renewable energy growth, India may reach 100% clean renewable energy in the year, and wait for this, 2-2-1-2.
32:31That's 200 years from now.
32:35200 years from now, India will finally manage to be fossil fuel free and air pollution completely removed in that way.
32:49Now, this projection has come from Stanford, remember, and it is based on how fast or how slowly in India's case are we adding renewable energy sources in 2023 and 2024.
33:03As of 2024, India had achieved just about 4.65% of the clean renewable energy it would need to fully power its economy after electrification.
33:15That puts India amongst the slowest of the major countries to transition, despite being the world's most populous nation and one of the most polluted as well.
33:26And when India's timeline is placed alongside other major economies, the contrast there is striking.
33:33I'll ask my producers to pop up that graphic on the screen also for you.
33:36China, the world's largest energy consumer, biggest emitter, also at one time the most polluted country in the world, will transition to clean energy fully by 2051.
33:51That's more than a century and a half before India.
33:55Which brings us to accountability.
33:59When the sources of pollution are known, the solution is clear, toxic air is known on an accident or geography or season, it becomes then a reflection of political choices.
34:11And at this pace, India isn't just delaying clean air, it is deferring it to generations which are not even born yet.
34:19So that's the reality. 200 years to actually clean up if we continue at this pace, if we don't get in a cleaner act of sorts, a cleaner committee of sorts, a centralized body to find a solutions.
34:33What exactly do experts have to say about this? Let me bring them in.
34:37Dev Bhakti, I have to start by asking you, this projection, I mean, some part of me had lost hope early on.
34:55This just is not going to give me sleep at night. At this projection for 200 years, we're not going to have clean air?
35:03I mean, Ed?
35:04Yeah, that headline is extremely disturbing.
35:07And I think the reason is it's kind of transitioning everyone's energy to clean air to electrosteer is like boiling the ocean.
35:15And in the short term, much more progress can be made by focusing on the diesel vehicles.
35:21I think that's the focus now, you know, everybody's thinking about how do I reduce pollution, but it's actually far more effective to reduce the pollution from the diesel vehicles, which are very few in number, compared to all the petrol vehicles and all the other energy sources.
35:37And so that, I think, is the part that's the hopeful part is that this has been done in other places like California, Europe, and there's many case studies of this.
35:45And the reason why is that the problem you're seeing now in Delhi is that the atmospheric stagnation that's trapping all the particles in the winter time period.
35:58So it's really, it's not only a pollution problem, it's a meteorological phenomenon.
36:03And those are disproportionately affected by the particulates, specifically the black carbon particulates from the diesel emissions.
36:12And that problem is actually much more easy to solve in the short term using diesel particulate filters.
36:17These are fitted on diesel, and in fact, that's what the BS-6 standard says.
36:21The BS-6 standard is for the new trucks.
36:24It requires these clean filters on all the new trucks, but it does nothing for the old trucks.
36:30And that's what India is missing.
36:32You need to consider not just the old, the new trucks and the new buses and the new diesel vehicles, but the legacy fleet.
36:39And that's what's part of the plan.
36:42And so, the real opportunity here is to recognize that changing everyone over to clean plantations is going to take decades, if not longer, as Stanford already said.
36:53Decades, in this case, centuries.
36:55Centuries, right?
36:56This is centuries, this is 200 years.
36:59And when there is clear evidence that other countries have managed to clean up earlier.
37:03But Rafiuddin, you were on this program last time and you said something very critical that stayed with me.
37:07You said if we were able to clean up our vehicles, just replace our vehicles and get at least BS-6 and above.
37:16Also migrate at the same time to EVs and get the rest of the things, just vehicles in order.
37:22We would manage to bring down our air pollution by 20%.
37:27This data actually says we are not even close to it.
37:31The current measures are just not enough.
37:34No, I think we will have to look at carbon emissions very differently from air pollution.
37:43Because, you know, air pollution is perhaps much more complicated compared to simply equating them to carbon emissions.
37:51For instance, air pollution comes from your dust, air pollution comes from your brake and tire,
37:55where air pollution comes from, also from coal-based sources, which not only release your carbon dioxide, but also release gases like sulfur dioxide and nitrogen dioxide,
38:08which again become particulate matter through chemical reactions in the atmosphere.
38:12So, just looking at carbon emissions and trying to say that, you know, carbon emissions are going to, we are going to eliminate carbon emissions in 200 years.
38:21Therefore, we will also be taking 200 years to clean our air is not really a sound argument in my opinion.
38:27For instance, your infographic also shows that the United States is also going to take about 128 years from now to clean up.
38:36But if you look at the air quality in the US, it's perhaps many fold better compared to India.
38:42Fair point.
38:43Yeah, yeah.
38:44So, we have, this is probably a much more complex picture.
38:49And we probably should not just be looking at carbon emissions and trying to project our air quality, you know, pathways based on what we are seeing from carbon emission pathways.
38:59Fair point.
39:00I see.
39:01That's a fair point.
39:02If you want to come in on that one, that entirely clean, I think that's what the Stanford study says, that you will be entirely clean.
39:09That's, and that transition will take long.
39:11To be fair, is it also because of how complex a nation we are?
39:16We are also a growing nation.
39:18We are a developing nation.
39:20We are a capitalist society.
39:22Is that all of that playing a role here as well?
39:25Yes, in fact.
39:26Oh, sorry.
39:27No, to Dave first.
39:28I will come back to Rafiuddin.
39:29Yes, you can't halt the economic activities.
39:32Those have to keep going on.
39:34That's not going to change.
39:35What you can do is make them cleaner using the diesel particulate filters and removing the black carbon, which is causing, has a disproportionately highly
39:50cause of the stagnation that you're seeing, that's trapping the pollution.
39:57It's too hard to change all of these carbon sources overnight, but it's much easier and much simpler to change the sources that are causing the black carbon particulates that are cooling the ground and warming the upper atmosphere, causing the temperature inversion.
40:19So your problem really is about stagnation as well as pollution and that you can target the stagnation problem much more simply with diesel particulate filters.
40:28And that's what I think is missing from this, is that transitioning to pure non-carbon sources will take forever.
40:36And in fact, that's not necessarily what's needed.
40:39Like in the United States, we require diesel particulate filters on all trucks and buses and we use them.
40:46All right, so what is required then?
40:50Rafiuddin, come in on that point.
40:52If we were to clean up our air and strictly, you know, have a lens towards better AQI and better PM 2.5 levels, what exactly is required, both in the short term and in the long term?
41:05So air pollution is a multi-sectoral problem.
41:09And you will obviously have to have interventions across sectors, not just one sector.
41:14Obviously, like you said, transportation is a dominant source of air pollution in Indian cities.
41:22But if you go to the rural areas, it's household cooking and biomass burning.
41:26That's the dominant source of air pollution.
41:28So it depends on your geography.
41:30It also depends on, you know, the sectors that you choose to target depending on the economic and the social feasibility.
41:41And on the basis of that, you will be able to reduce air pollution the way, for instance, you also cited the example of China.
41:48China also looked at it as a multi-sectoral problem.
41:50It had an ambitious program to reduce air pollution and it managed to reduce air pollution by almost 40% in the Beijing airship in a matter of four years, which is unprecedented anywhere in the world.
42:02Whereas other countries took longer, 15 to 20 years to manage this feed.
42:06So the bottom line is, it's a multi-sectoral problem.
42:09It's a complex problem, which obviously needs interventions across sectors.
42:12And there's no silver bullet to this.
42:15Right.
42:16There's no silver bullet.
42:17I get that, Rafiuddin.
42:18But give me solutions.
42:20Give me your playbook.
42:22If the environment minister is listening to you right now and he's finding this problem as complicated as you are.
42:29And we often get this criticism, right, that we are constantly questioning, but where are the solutions?
42:33Give me solutions.
42:34How should government actually approach this?
42:38So, clean up transportation.
42:41That's one solution.
42:43Try to move to cleaner fuel standards as much as possible.
42:46And wherever you can electrify, try to electrify.
42:49And then improve public transportation in cities and also Indian towns.
42:55Because right now the public transport infrastructure that we have currently is inadequate.
43:01Falls short of our own standards, in fact, in many Indian cities.
43:05So, ramp that up.
43:06Then you have, you've rolled out an ambitious clean cooking program.
43:10The Pradhan Mantri Ujbala, trying to move away people from biomass-based cooking to LPG.
43:16That was an ambitious program and it's also given you gains.
43:20Now, ensure that the program sustains, continues and people actually use clean cooking solutions.
43:26Connections have been given, but are they really refilling their cylinders?
43:29Are they continuously using this for cooking?
43:33Ensure that.
43:34Eliminate propicitive burning, especially in areas with high air pollution.
43:39For instance, the Delhi airship pays the brunt of propicitive burning from the northwestern region of India.
43:45So, eliminate that through various solutions, both in-situ and ex-situ management.
43:52Clean up your industries.
43:53Move from coal to gas.
43:55So, these would be the top solutions that come to my mind.
43:57And these are time-tested solutions.
44:00These are not solutions that don't exist now, right?
44:03You can borrow them from your own country.
44:05You can borrow them from the examples of other countries.
44:07But these are time-tested solutions.
44:09This is the playbook.
44:10That's the playbook.
44:11And it's simply out there.
44:12All the government has to really do now is just enforce it, right?
44:16But it's not always easy to enforce.
44:18The thing about moving to public transport, apart from the fact that it has very poor connectivity,
44:25last mile connectivity is an issue, safety is an issue.
44:28Like, a woman would find it very hard to sort of take public transport in the early morning hours or evening hours, etc.
44:35But there is also a sort of expanding middle class in India, which is aspirational, which is growing,
44:44wants to own that first car, wants to get out of the bus lines,
44:48and actually, you know, be able to have their own vehicle to take their family along.
44:54That was the big dream that even the Tatas at one point were selling, right?
44:57Even with cars like Nano, etc.
44:59So, we are sort of, you know, breaking away the dreams of young, expanding middle class at the…
45:09Because you want to sort of balance it out with pollution.
45:11My question to you is, is there a way to balance it?
45:14Is there a way to keep them both happy?
45:16Or should the government just say, this is for the larger good and thus some aspirations will have to wait?
45:23Yeah, that's an excellent question.
45:26And I think the important point is the petroleum emissions, even if they keep going, they're only 20% of the black carbon,
45:33and maybe a minority of the overall pollution.
45:36And yet, the focus of the interventions has been on a uniform approach to pollution, trying to control all sources.
45:43And really, that's, I think, perhaps the mistake that's being made is you need to…
45:47The diesel emissions actually punch much higher than their weight.
45:51They cause half the particulate pollution, according to studies, and of that 80% of the black carbon.
45:58And so, this is…
46:00And the solution…
46:01The problem is not just pollution, it's the stagnation that's in Delhi.
46:05So, specifically to Delhi, to the earlier point, in different geographies there are different solutions,
46:11but specifically for the Delhi airpocalypse, stagnation is really the main cause of the problem right now.
46:17And so, because the pollution is not able to escape.
46:20And so, when it does escape…
46:22I have very little time, so I want to give that last word to Rafi Uddin very quickly,
46:26to say that how do you balance? Is there a way to balance here?
46:29Or we'll have to go hard against middle class dreams?
46:32I think we'll have to take the balance route.
46:37Because the sticks are not always going to give you the results.
46:42It should be a balance of carrots and sticks.
46:44And obviously, you'll have to balance aspirations with what's required for public good.
46:49Hmm. All right. Easier said than done.
46:53Our political class, if they intend to solve this problem, have a task at their hands.
46:57For the moment, there are some low-hanking fruits that can be picked up.
46:59And we really hope they are listening into all the suggestions that are coming to us from all you experts.
47:04For the moment, thank you so much for joining.
47:06That's all we could pack in on 5 Live today.
47:08We'll see you again tomorrow. Bye-bye.
47:10Bye-bye.
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