- 6 weeks ago
This edition of To The Point discusses two major developing stories – one in Bengal where suspended TMC Neta Humayun Kabir has floated a new party and the Aravalli row.
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00:01Humayu Kabir floats new party.
00:10New party in Bengal pole free.
00:19Former TMC Neta to take on Mamata.
00:22Muslim vote bank in focus.
00:37Bengal's new OAC factor.
00:44Didi's minority vote under threat.
00:47The threat.
00:52Welcome, you're watching To The Point.
00:53I am Preeti Chaudhuri and our top focus for debate
00:57comes in from the state of West Bengal
00:59all set to get into elections in the next four months.
01:03There has been what many would suggest
01:05the rise of the OAC factor.
01:07Not quite OAC but a former TMC leader
01:10who has now broken away, formed his own party
01:14and could very well be a threat
01:17where it comes down to Mamata Banerjee's grip
01:19on the Muslim vote bank.
01:21Some might call him the team B of the BJP
01:24as per the TMC.
01:26Others, the possible OAC factor in TMC
01:30in West Bengal this time.
01:32One more claimant to the Muslim vote bank in Bengal.
01:45Former Trinamul Congress leader Humayu Kabir
01:47on Monday launched the Janta Unnayan party
01:50projecting it as an alternative voice for minorities
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03:18he has dismissed the new party as politically irrelevant.
03:48This is not Bihar. This is Bengal.
03:52Kabir is also expected to align with AIMIM chief Asaduddin OEC,
03:57raising questions over whether minority votes will fragment.
04:02The numbers tell a clear story.
04:04Over the past two decades, Mamata Banerjee's TMC has steadily consolidated Muslim support,
04:10emerging as a dominant political force within the community.
04:14Humayu Kabir is confrontational and ambitious.
04:18But in a state where the TMC Muslim base remains strong,
04:22the question is whether his new party can split the minority vote and hurt Mamata Banerjee.
04:28Bureau Report, India Today.
04:32So how much of a factor will Humayu Kabir be in the state of West Bengal?
04:37How much will he be able to divide the Muslim vote bank?
04:40Is he an actual threat to Mamata Banerjee?
04:42Let's take all the questions to our panelists this evening.
04:45Joining me, Dr. Shakta Rupa, spokesperson, Bharatiya Janata Party.
04:49Tawseef Rehman, spokesperson, TMC.
04:52And Shikha Mukherjee, political commentator.
04:54I'd like to bring in Ms. Mukherjee first.
04:57Shikha Mukherjee, for somebody who's keenly watched Bengal politics for decades now,
05:02what do you make of Humayu Kabir?
05:04Humayu Kabir is a maverick.
05:08He's a political maverick.
05:10He's jumped parties multiple times.
05:13But that said, Humayu Kabir has now decided that he is a community leader.
05:19He thinks that he can play the Muslim card to make his presence vital to West Bengal's politics.
05:27And that is what he's talking about, winning 90 seats, becoming the kingmaker, et cetera.
05:35Is that the reality?
05:36I doubt it.
05:37Because, first and foremost, one has to check whether Humayu Kabir's support in terms of votes actually extends beyond his own constituency.
05:53Yes, he has received a huge enthusiastic rallying of Muslims for the foundation laying stone of the Babri Masjid in Bildunga.
06:08But does that really translate into votes for him?
06:12Does that translate into votes across West Bengal and his prospective party?
06:20And can he actually handle it?
06:23Let me see why I'm raising the question.
06:26The question arises because long before he launched his party, he was cozying up to, of all people, the CPIM and saying, why don't we join hands?
06:40He was cozying up to the CPI to ask the same question.
06:44He was cozying up to the Congress.
06:46So clearly he thinks that he is, A, he needs that kind of respectability of having very respectable partners.
06:58And B, he thinks that he needs their support in order to make himself even a leader, forget about being a Muslim leader.
07:07All right, so what would be the lot of Humayu Kabir?
07:13I'm going to circle back and ask you that question, you know, Shikha Mukherjee.
07:17Many are looking at him as possibly the OVC factor.
07:21Some would have thought in the state of Bihar that the minority vote was consolidating behind the Mahagat Bandhan,
07:30despite an overt quoting of the Muslim vote by the Mahagat Bandhan.
07:36There was disaffection and it showed when the Muslim population in Bihar voted because despite of, you know, AIMIM not being with the Mahagat Bandhan,
07:47many thought the AIMIM a better voice of what their lot and their concern was than the Mahagat Bandhan.
07:53Can he prove to be that in the state of Bihar is something that needs to be debated.
07:57But I want to bring in right now the TMC spokesperson, Tosifur Rahman, 27%, at least as per the last census in 2011, was the Muslim vote and this is where it stands.
08:08Political analysts would feel that Mamata Banerjee usually started from that 25% because this vote had strongly rallied behind Mamata Banerjee.
08:19They found now a new community leader. How much of a spoiler for the Muslim vote can it be for Mamata Banerjee?
08:26Good evening, Preeti Ji, and good evening to all my fellow panelists.
08:30Well, you see, when you call, when you name this so-called factors, leaders and community leaders, I don't see them as a community leader.
08:37I say, I just see them as an opportunity leader because I don't understand the intention and what kind of politics they want to do because sometimes they are in BJP.
08:46Sometimes they are coming in Trinwal Congress promising that there will be no communal tension and they will be very secular.
08:52But end of the day, they show their true color because Bengal is all about secularism.
08:57Bengal is not about communism. Bengal is all about equality.
09:00Bengal is all about all the religions of working together, having fun together and spreading, not hatred, but instead of spreading love altogether.
09:09So I have no such expectation from Humayun Kabir, whether he's a community leader or whatsoever.
09:15And yes, if he's launching a party, that's his democratic right. No one can stop anyone.
09:20Because during 2021 also, you remember, like many, this so-called factor leaders came in front, even from Hyderabad, even from Bengal itself, some Muslim leaders also, they arrived.
09:32But you have to understand there is only one leader, whether it belongs to majority or minority, and that is Monota Bondo Paddhai.
09:40Because, you know, because when you work for the people, when you live for the people, and when you dream for the people, there is no factor.
09:49There is only factor. It's about development, development, and development.
09:53Whether you bring SIR, you bring all those scams and everything, but that doesn't stand in front of the court as well.
09:59Because this is the same BJP who was jumping with SSC, this is the same BJP who was jumping with so many borders open.
10:06You don't have borders, we have ghospatia.
10:09You tell me, how many ghospatia have been caught till date?
10:12There is only 33,000 ghospatia since 2014 to 2025, as per Kiran Riju ji, not per Tausifur Rahman.
10:20So, Priti ji, it is very clear. I, my party, my leader is not concerned with anything.
10:27Yes, if Trinamul Congress fails to deliver to the people, then yes, that's a factor.
10:33If we cannot work for the people, if we cannot work for the Bengali, and if we get scared to those Bangla Birodhis,
10:40who think about themselves, they are like Zamindar, that's a different factor altogether.
10:45All right, I want to bring in Dr. Shrattarupa. Dr. Shrattarupa, this could very well suit the BJP.
10:54There's a huge set that actually looks at the emergence of this new party,
10:58the emergence of Himayu Kabir as a possible community leader,
11:01as nothing more than what has been labelled for, you know, Asaduddin Ovesi and the AIMIM,
11:07which is the team B of the Bharatiya Janata Party.
11:10Chip away at the Muslim votes, where you try and consolidate the Hindu vote bank.
11:14Good evening, Priti, Shikadi, Tosipur, everybody.
11:19No, I really don't know why this is, I mean, I think for the sake of convenience,
11:24Trinamul is, you know, trying to label Humayun COVID as our B team.
11:31But if you look at the track record, Humayun COVID has been with Trinamul for now quite some time.
11:38Humayun COVID has been making peculiarly hate comments about, you know, throwing away Hindus into the Bhagirati.
11:48Mamata Banerjee kept shut. She allowed it to happen.
11:51She, Humayun COVID has been talking nonsense about Mamata Banerjee, about a rift between her and Oveshek Banerjee.
12:01Mamata Banerjee kept quiet. Yeah, there was some kind of a show about some show cause and, you know, you should not be him being admonished.
12:09But Humayun COVID remained Humayun COVID. There was absolutely no change.
12:13What struck us is very odd was on a land of so-called secularism, which Tosipur and Shikhadi will keep on eulogizing.
12:23This land has now become nothing more than a eulogized land for this kind of people who want to bring in hatred, who want to fan communalism.
12:34And on the top of it, they want to make a masjid, which is called Babri Masjid, out of all things. Yes, you can build whatever you want to.
12:43But who's giving the land? Who's sanctioning the land? If the Trinamul government did not sanction the land, you really think somebody could be making a Babri Masjid there?
12:53Number two, the amount of cash that has been coming in. It is not possible. It is not possible for somebody to get in some 14 chests of cash unless the government is behind them.
13:06This is all very clear that Mohamata Banerjee has got somehow, you know, she's an astute politician. She smells the land. She understands politics way before anybody else does.
13:17And I'm saying this as a BJP spokesperson. Mohamata Banerjee has been hearing comments like Humayun COVID's people have been saying that they haven't done, Mohamata Banerjee hasn't done enough for the Muslims.
13:31So therefore, Mohamata Banerjee, being the astute politician that she is, goes ahead and, you know, makes, makes, allows Humayun COVID to make another team.
13:41And knowing fully well, they are going to kiss and forget the rest of them, forget all this going to happen and they are going to join hands at the end of the day.
13:50Really, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter to Bharatiya Janata Party because 2026 people of West Bengal have decided to throw this government out.
14:00Mohamata Banerjee, Humayun COVID at all. Everybody will go. It will be now our turn to serve the people.
14:06So you're, you're practically suggesting this is a, this is a Furfura Sharif moment like it was the last time around and ultimately it will all come together is what you're seeming to suggest.
14:17I want to bring in Shikha Mukherjee back into this conversation because Ms Mukherjee, if you look at other states, now there is a clear disenchantment that the Muslim community has with the opposition, if one might call it the India Alliance or the Mahagat Bandhan, where they feel that they are not really speaking or picking up or speaking for the cause of the Muslims, where they'd rather, you know, invest their vote in an Asaduddin Ovesi who doesn't even have any, is not even a stakeholder possibly at power.
14:45And they feel him being a better representative, at least with what happened in Bihar. Why do you see things are different this time around?
14:52Because last time around as well, there were murmurs and the Muslim community is not very happy with Mamata Banerjee. There was the Furfura Sharif moment which happened similar, you know, grievances being aired this time as well.
15:04Okay, two things. One is that 2021 elections and this time is going to be a little different. Number one, because of the SIR and, you know, who is this Ghospatia and our Muslims, all the Muslims in West Bengal, how many of them are Ghospatias and whatever.
15:28So there is a problem there. However, what you're asking is, will Humayun Kabir sort of cut into Mamata Banerjee's so-called Muslim vote bank?
15:43The problem is that the appeal is not, the debate is not about the Muslim vote bank. The Muslim vote bank has been with Mamata Banerjee despite the fact that they have a lot of problems with how she has been dealing with their problems, their issues, their concerns, their aspirations.
16:05Just as they have with the CPA. One of these days, they're going to walk off. But is this the moment? I doubt it. The second thing is that there is also a counter consolidation which is expected of the Hindu vote bank.
16:24Now, this is something which is crucial to West Bengal's politics and West Bengal's elections going forward to 2026. I mean, if we look at the narrative at the moment, it is all about how the gap in the number of votes polled by the BJP and the DMC is being narrowed thanks to the SIR.
16:47Are these, are these, are these the Hindu votes that the BJP is talking about? What votes are they talking about? Anyway, all of this is going to play out in the next four months.
16:58Okay. At the moment, I absolutely do not see the Muslim vote, the Muslim vote consolidating behind a Humayun Kabir because the Humayun, like the Fulfur of Basharif moment, nothing happened because Humayun Kabir is a maverick.
17:18One doesn't know where he's going to be in the next few months. Is he going to be, he's reached out to everybody, including the AI-MIM. So if he's reached out to OVC and he's reached out to the city.
17:32Okay, so he's a bit of a political shapeshifter and people might not have that kind of trust in him at least this time around is what you're seeming to suggest.
17:41Okay. I want to, you know, cut across to the TMC spokesperson, bring him back into this conversation because with what Ms. Mukherjee is speaking of, at one end, of course, you have Humayun Kabir who's looking at even if it is a marginal chipping away of the Muslim vote, but what's happening is a counter polarization of the Hindu vote.
17:59The SIR could very well be one factor of that, but there is another factor as well, which might aid to this Hindu consolidation, which is playing out as we speak in a country like Bangladesh, where one can clearly see polarization, communal violence.
18:14And it is echoing right now in the state of West Bengal, which doesn't quite augur well for a Mamata Banerjee.
18:22Pritheejee, I don't understand, but why are we so much focusing with the minority and the majority if someone is going to make his own party, if someone is going to make a mosque?
18:30As my sister Shatrupa Ji said, that why the government is sanctioning those land?
18:34But those lands doesn't belong to the government. It doesn't belong to HITCO, it doesn't belong to PWDO whatsoever.
18:40It's a private land and someone wants to give that land to make A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H whatsoever.
18:46So how can we interfere? You know, when Humayun Kabir got three shokos later, when earlier he said that hum to apna naya party banayega.
18:55Okay, that's his democratic right if you want to do it. But on the very 5th of December, when he claimed that hum kuch karne waale hai, we suspended Humayun Kabir.
19:04So I don't understand why are we making Humayun Kabir with such a fuss. Anyone can make a masjid, anyone can make a church, anyone can make a mandir.
19:14Ramji ki mandir banali ji hai, I'll be very happy, I'll also donate some money. At the same time, I can donate some money for the church as well, I can donate some money for the mosque as well, if someone wants to do it.
19:22But the problem is the name. So here what, why TMC suspended Humayun Kabir. TMC never suspended Humayun Kabir because he was making a mosque.
19:32TMC suspended Humayun Kabir with that name. So you cannot play with someone's sentiment and he's not a hero at all.
19:39If he thinks that he's going to dent Pranimal Congress, that's a dream.
19:43Because this, this same type of people we have seen in 2021 as well.
19:48Hrithiji, the most important, if you can ask me something, you can ask me about the development.
19:53You can ask me about Sheba Shree, which is happening right now in West Bengal, where lacks and lack of people are getting free medical treatment.
20:00So this is more important.
20:01So I'm sure that's what you'd want to talk about. I'm sure that's what you want to talk about.
20:04But that is not something that the BJP would like to speak of because right now, at least, because, you know, Dr. Shattarupa, the BJP doesn't, the criticism is that the BJP doesn't quite have its house in order in terms of leadership.
20:18You're banking on the SIR, number one, and you're hoping what's playing across the border in Bangladesh finds resonance and echo in West Bengal and you can counter consolidate the Hindu world.
20:31No, Hrithiji, I think I'll have to congratulate you on trying to get an insight or even trying to, you know, decipher what BJP mindset is, you know, you're even trying to get a peek into our household, which is not really very fair.
20:48We have our house in order. We know that we've...
20:50I accept the congratulations, Dr. Shattarupa.
20:54Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:55No, the point here is that we leave, you know, leave our organization to ourselves.
21:01We are perfectly capable. We are already into election mode.
21:05So, I mean, I'm not going to discuss that now, but I just want to point out two things.
21:08One is, of course, Shikha Di being the sophisticated person that she is, used a very, very, what should I say, sensible word for maverick, which I don't think is the right way to describe an opportunist like Humayun Kovir, who has been.
21:23I mean, I just want to point out Tawseepur here. There was absolutely no reason. I mean, no reason at least was issued. The showcase was simply because he was just going on and on abusing Muhammad Ali. That was the last line.
21:39But Humayun Kovir has been constantly ridiculing the Hindu sentiments, pointing out that Muhammad Ali has done nothing for the Muslims.
21:49I'm sorry, you won't be tolerated at all.
21:51I never interrupted you.
21:52Okay, please, Alam.
21:53I'm sorry for that.
21:54No, no, she gave you, she did not interrupt you, Tawseepur Ehmar.
21:57Can I just get the BJP spokesperson?
22:00You know, I should have had my timer on today, but okay.
22:03Oh, go ahead.
22:04Make your point, man.
22:05One more thing, yes, you also said that we are relying on SIR. SIR is something that I don't know what the other people have been saying, but SIR is a complete electoral procedure.
22:16It is a constitutional procedure. It will happen on its own. Where the infiltrators are, that is something that the election commission will answer probably after all the hearings are over.
22:26But having said that, I am somebody who's right down on the ground level, working with the people right on the ground.
22:35There is a sentiment in Bengal now.
22:38A similar sentiment appeared in 1977 when Bengal was ready to ship from Congress to somebody else.
22:45They were not sure of CPM, but they voted the left in.
22:47When they were stuck with the left for 34 years, now in 2011 again, the year, in fact, I had contested the Ranshaba from Baligan.
22:56All right, so you're saying the sentiment is the year of the change.
23:00I want to just take final comments.
23:02This is it.
23:02Okay, so now you're saying that the sentiment has finally built up.
23:05So therefore, what the BJP has looked for in 2021 is going to reach fruition in 2026.
23:12Yes, that's why we're putting it. One last sentence.
23:16Ma'am, I'll come back to you. I'm taking final comments. I'm taking final comments.
23:19I'll come back to you. I'll come back to you. Taking final comments.
23:23Very quickly, Dr. Shikha Mukherjee, encapsulate on what can we witness in the next three months as we go into elections in West Bengal.
23:30Please make it short, ma'am. We're going to go one one minute to all of our panelists.
23:35We are going to see the SIR process reach some kind of end.
23:41So we are going to see who are these suspicious voters because we have a deleted category, an unmapped category, the ASD, and now something called a suspicious voter.
23:54It all depends on who is going to decide what are the grounds of suspicion.
23:59So two things will happen. One, the khuspatia infiltrator, the Muslim demographic invasion, etc.
24:10This is going to play out on a very, very high decibel note. That is for sure.
24:16On the other hand, there is going to be a counter consolidation around how the center and the state negotiate with each other, starting with the renaming of Jiramji as the Mahatma Shri program in West Bengal.
24:40It's all going to play out on identities. One, communal, the other, Bengali.
24:51Regional. All right. We're going to leave it at that. One minute each for both the party spokespersons. TMC spokespersons, go first. Please limit it to one minute, sir. Make your point.
25:01Preeti ji, before you end the show and before I go, I'm really sorry, Shatrubha ji. I never wanted to interfere, but I wanted to support you.
25:07Whenever these BJP people said that Hindu khatre mein, and Humayun Kabir was talking some shit about some majority Hindus, we are not going to tolerate that.
25:15No one is under khatra. Mujhe samaj bhi nahi aata, 2014 ke baat se Hindu khatre mein kaise a gaya.
25:20And we are there for the majority. We are there for the minority.
25:24And no one is under any threat. This is the reason why we had to suspend this guy, Humayun Kabir.
25:30Not because he was attacking the Hindus, but he is attacking the sentiments of the Muslims as well.
25:36And we are a secular party, Shatrubha ji. We are a secular party, Preeti ji.
25:39We will not tolerate any kind of thought process like Humayun Kabir.
25:43Okay, hard cut. One minute, Dr. Shatrubha, make your point.
25:47I'm going to just sum it up.
25:49Can I just get the BJP spokesperson now? One minute, ma'am. Go ahead.
25:52I will sum up in less than one minute.
25:54The people of West Bengal have decided that they are completely fed up with a party which is doing blind appeasement,
26:02is into so much of corruption, who's lying to the core or to every single issue.
26:09And most importantly, if you look at Mahmoud, forget about what anybody else is saying.
26:13If you're an intelligent journalist, just keep on watching Mahmoud Tabanerjee's body language.
26:17She is an astute politician, like I told you.
26:20She understands that now the ground below her feet is very badly shaken up.
26:27So I think if the people can vote, which election commission will ensure that the voting will happen properly,
26:36I think Trinamul is on its way out.
26:37Okay.
26:41All right, we're going to leave it at that.
26:42We're going to keenly follow, watch and report on the West Bengal elections and you'll get everything first right here on India Today.
26:50Let's shift focus to our debate number two, and it concerns the oldest hill chain in memory,
26:57where India is concerned, the Aravali hill chain.
27:00And one order by the top court of the country redefined what the genesis and what the Aravali hills are.
27:10There has been a fair amount of backlash to it, which seems to suggest that 90% of the Aravali hill chain,
27:18which practically run the ecosystem of North India, not just that, at multiple levels, is in acute danger.
27:26After outrage, the center clarifies, no free-for-all mining in the Aravlis.
27:47The government insists fears are exaggerated, arguing that the intent is to stop illegal mining, not open the floodgates.
28:05The committee recommends that to ensure sustainable mining in Aravali hill and range.
28:14No new mining lease, except in case of critical strategic and atomic mineral.
28:22But critics say that the threat isn't coming by bulldozers, not by dynamite, but by redefining a word.
28:29India's oldest mountain range, the Aravlis, the ancient green shield of North India,
28:37now faces what activists call its gravest danger yet, erasure on paper.
28:44The recent interpretation by the Supreme Court on what qualifies as a hill in the Aravli range
28:49has triggered alarm among environmentalists, lawmakers and conservationists.
28:54Under the new reading, only land rising more than 100 metres qualifies for legal protection.
29:02An internal forest survey of India assessment paints a stark picture.
29:07Out of 12,081 mapped hills, only 1,048, just 8.7% meet this threshold.
29:16Nearly 90% of the Aravlis could now lose statutory protection.
29:20Across platforms, hashtag Seva Aravlis is trending, with citizens, environmentalists and public figures
29:29warning that the survival of the range is at stake.
29:33The Aravli hills play a critical role in Delhi's air quality, blocking PM 2.5 pollutants,
29:38arresting dust-laden winds and acting as vital wildlife corridors.
29:43A natural defence in a region already gasping for breath.
29:46The centre says this is regulation, not dilution.
29:52But activists warn definitions can decide destinies.
29:56And for the Aravlis, the fight may now be as much in the law books as on the land.
30:02Bureau Report, India Today.
30:03Now, as per the new court definition of the Aravlis, hills which are under 100 metres will not come in the ambit of the Aravli range.
30:15That practically means that over 90% of the Aravli hills will not be the legal definition of Aravli hills.
30:25And that is the death knell, rings the death knell, where it comes down to the Aravli range,
30:30which is already exploited with rampant mining.
30:33The government, though, has come out and said, the environment minister, that lies are being spread.
30:38That there is no rampant mining, nothing is happening and the Aravli range is safe.
30:43The matter has also become political.
30:45One of the MLA's from the state of Rajasthan is now taking the fight to the streets
30:50because 90% of the Aravli range is limited to the state of Rajasthan.
31:15Do you think that the government will be complicit?
31:20The government will be left for failure.
31:22I will say that the Aravli sound of the Aravli is the political party.
31:28But the rest of the Aravli in Rajasthan, the people of Rajasthan, they all have a breakdown.
31:33Today, whether it is a BJP, whether it is a Congress,
31:35everyone should be in the state of Aravli.
31:37The government should be in the Supreme Court.
31:40The government should be on the Supreme Court and should be on the same side of the Aravli.
31:42The government should be on the same side.
31:44foreign
32:00foreign
32:05foreign
32:12foreign
32:40foreign
33:10What do you want to ask? What are the concerted demands that you want to do with the Kendra government and the Rajasthan government?
33:18Do you have a concerted demands list that you should do?
33:26The first thing is that the criteria of 100 meters is 100 meters.
33:31The arrival is complete. The arrival is complete.
33:34The arrival is now listed. Everything is necessary to result, and our agenda is the one where everyone should be.
33:45The Supreme Court should be the one where the permanent bill is proposed.
33:56I would like to thank you.
34:26hill where the parliament has been, today that you will see that you will see several multinational companies in the United States.
34:33That is where the government of Rana Pratap, Rana Sangha, Kalu Bhai, Guru Govind Singh
34:40to fight today, the government of Rana Pratap and Guru Govind Singh to fight.
34:44You can make everything you can make.
34:46You can make everything you can make.
34:48You can't do it.
34:49We have not done it in Delhi, but in the same way, we have done it in Delhi and in NCR, where you can leave it and leave it in Delhi.
35:01So, I think that this is a very big deal.
35:03I think that this is a very big deal.
35:05I think that this is a very big deal.
35:07I think that this is a very big deal.
35:09we should be able to do the same thing.
35:10Otherwise, we should also have to do the same thing.
35:14We should also have to do the same thing.
35:16So, we should have to go.
35:39All right. So the government says that lies are being spread.
35:49The Aravali range is protected, but by the very nature of the new definition
35:53by the top court of the Aravali, it changes everything.
35:56What really changes? Let's cut across to our panelists this evening.
35:59Joining me, Ms. Jyoti Raghavan, core team member, Aravali Bachao, Citizen Movement.
36:04We also have Anuradha P. Dhawan.
36:06She's a sustainability innovator as well as founder member,
36:11Aravali Bachao, Citizen Movement.
36:12To begin with you, Ms. Raghavan, today you finally have the Environment Minister
36:16who came out in an interview and said that lies are being spread.
36:20There is no incessant mining. There are proper laws in place.
36:23And one needs to factor all of that before we get into any sort of hyperbole.
36:30Oh my God. Did he actually say that there is no mining that is happening?
36:36Because we have on record, we have on our videos.
36:39No, he says there is no illegal mining.
36:42Oh my God. That's what I'm saying.
36:44We have on record, we have.
36:45Go ahead, ma'am.
36:46You know, we have videos.
36:48I have personally gone into these mining dens in Nu and Manesar and Alwar and short videos.
36:57You know, we have short covert videos of, you know, illegal mining happening on a very big scale.
37:06This was, you know, I last went there, you know, a couple of years ago only.
37:11And we were fighting a case in the NGT against illegal mining.
37:18And we had gone to gather evidence and we collected enough evidence that there is mining, you know,
37:25that is happening in these regions, you know, especially around Rajasthan.
37:29And how could the minister blatantly deny that, you know, no such thing is happening,
37:36even in many, very many pockets of Aravli?
37:37You know, what he says is, and let me paraphrase on what the environment minister has said, ma'am.
37:43So, he's practically said that Aravli is secure, mining only in 0.19% of the area, no mining allowed in Delhi NCR,
37:54mining leases only for critical needs, 90% of the Aravli is still protected, lies are being spread on the Aravli issue.
38:01Oh, I can only suggest the minister goes and takes a walk inside the Aravlis around Gurgaon and, you know, Manisar and all across.
38:13In fact, even the forest, you know, simple, normal, not even the activists, but the regular forest workers will tell you
38:20that there is, you know, if not on a big scale, then there is mining still happening on smaller scales.
38:27I have, you know, Anu, it was somewhere in Gurgaon only.
38:34We had short videos of mining happening and small scale, there was, I'm forgetting the names of so many spots now,
38:45but there is a lot of mining still going on, not on a, maybe not on a, you know, as big a scale as it is happening in Rajasthan,
38:54but there is certainly illegal mining happening even by, you know, local villagers who are trying to construct their homes.
38:59They are, you know, coming in, taking away rocks and stones from the Aravlis.
39:04What is he even talking about?
39:06I want to cut across to Ms. Dhavan right now.
39:08Ms. Dhavan, you know, other than the sheer fact with what the Environment Minister has said,
39:12he's also said that the court has constituted a technical committee for only the restricted purpose of mining.
39:19The 100 meter issue is from top to bottom.
39:22Now, this is what the Environment Minister has said.
39:24But having said that, do you think the, you know, one thing is clear.
39:27The redefinition of the Aravlis clearly puts the range at high risk,
39:32which is already being plundered where mining and other sources of exploitation are concerned.
39:36Yes. So, this 100 meter minimum height from the adjacent plains will exclude over 90% of the Aravli hills of Gurgaon, Faridabad and the Delhi NCR, as well as Rajasthan.
39:52And this 100 meter height, you know, the definition to do with this, this whole issue has been all over the news channels, all over social media and in so many, so many discussions and newsrooms.
40:09To me, however, it seems a bit more like, you know, defining away our Aravlis.
40:16So, it is not just this 100 meter height definition issue.
40:20Just before that, Haryana also proposed a forest definition of minimum 40% forest canopy cover for a forested area to qualify as a legal forest by dictionary meaning.
40:31Now, for a lay person, anybody, even a person who's not interested in environment matters, it is so easy to understand how ridiculous this is,
40:40that a 40% forest canopy cover for hills like the Aravlis, which are scrubby, you know, which don't have trees like decidus trees,
40:51they just have thorny, bushy, a very, it's a very arid kind of a terrain.
40:55So, this 100 meter definition comes at the heels of this 40% forest canopy cover kind of a definition for the Aravli forest.
41:07And for sure, I mean, if the union minister was, you know, giving a whole explainer, which we all saw, which we all saw on TV,
41:17he really has to not get into any kind of, you know, discussions on this, we don't, we really don't want to talk about it,
41:26because personally for me, there's nothing substantive in his statement, in the Honourable Union Minister's statement.
41:34He just needs to allow the FSI to release the data on how much area is actually going to come under this 100 meter definition,
41:42how much area of Aravlis, because there is already under the 3% slope criteria of 2011 by the FSI,
41:51there is 4 million hectares in Rajasthan, which is showing Aravlis cover.
41:56So, there's not much difference, then it's all sorted, you know, then nobody needs to worry.
42:04However, for all of us, the Aravli Bachao Citizens Movement, of which I am a founder member,
42:11we have been at it for the last seven years. This is the first time a group of concerned citizens,
42:19and not just a group, but then hundreds and thousands over the last seven years, have joined in.
42:25Like Jyoti mentioned, that, you know, we have done covert operations going into where this,
42:30all sorts of illegal mining, illegal encroachment activities were going on.
42:34As you may recall, a couple of years ago, a DSP-level police officer was run over by a JCB,
42:44by the illegal mining mafia.
42:46So, you know, there are enough people out there who are putting energy and, you know, all of that,
42:54their sweat and blood into raising awareness on Aravli issues, on talking about how the protection can be given
43:02to our very, very dear, precious ranges. These are not just 700 kilometer long Aravli ranges.
43:08They are 76,000 square kilometers.
43:11You've been, the lot of you, right, the lot of you have been fighting for the Aravlis for, like,
43:18for years on, and that is admirable and appreciated.
43:22Hopefully, because of this particular judgment, it's finally the cause of the Aravlis has found itself
43:29in the spotlight, and let's hope justice be done.
43:31I want to bring in, you know, for final comments, Jyoti Raghavan, PILs have already been filed
43:38at the back of the new definition of the Aravli of 100 meters and below is not Aravli,
43:43but what made, what, you know, what makes you think that made the top court of the country,
43:48there were two reports in front of the country, consider one and not the other?
43:52Well, I think there is a bigger agenda at play, Preeti, because in the first place,
44:00I do not understand the need to define the Aravlis, just let Aravlis be.
44:09Why the need to define what makes up Aravlis and what doesn't?
44:13100 meters, you know, mountain or hill makes up Aravlis and 99 meters doesn't.
44:20But who are we to decide that?
44:23The earth has already decided billions of years ago that this is what Aravlis are.
44:29The need to define, I think I smell a rat here, because the agenda or the idea is to open it,
44:38open it up to mining and construction.
44:41And you mentioned earlier that, you know, this puts at risk 90% of the Aravlis.
44:49But let me tell you, in Rajasthan, it puts at risk 99% of the Aravlis.
44:54Because out of the, you know, 1,18,000 Aravlis in Rajasthan,
45:00only 1,048 hills qualify as Aravlis by the new definition.
45:07And what worries me more is that, you know, they took note of a committee report over the report of the FSI.
45:18And this committee, nobody even knows who are the members, what qualified,
45:22who are, how many experts were there in the committee.
45:25Where is, you know, the definition that they, you know, on what criteria did they come up with this definition?
45:32And, you know, the minister talked about, you know, this, you know, 90% protection to the Aravlis.
45:40What kind of protection is he talking about?
45:43Why the secrecy around this committee report?
45:46And when we, you know, one of our trustees, he clicked on the link to that report, it led him nowhere.
45:53So what is going on?
45:55I, you know, I am just very concerned about the secrecy.
45:59You're saying that report which was, on which the top court of the country relied on is not even in public domain.
46:07Is that what you're saying?
46:08It is nowhere in the public domain.
46:10And we don't know who are the people in this committee.
46:14You know, how many experts were there?
46:16What, you know, what qualified them to come up with this?
46:20Yeah, that is concerning.
46:21I have a feeling that, you know, we all have a feeling that...
46:24That is deeply concerning.
46:25I want to bring it right.
46:27Yeah.
46:27So we all have a feeling that the court was misled.
46:32Yeah.
46:32Either it was misled or it ignored one report over the other.
46:37The factual report of FSI over this, you know, concocted report of the committee, you know,
46:45it purposely picked up that report and gave this ruling.
46:50I mean, there is something at play here.
46:52Okay.
46:54Miss Dhavan, what's your view on it?
46:58But, you know, also what has happened at the back of it.
47:01And maybe the media picked up the cause too late.
47:03But the fact is the likes of you who have been fighting for years now,
47:06there seems to be a people movement to it.
47:09Citizens across Rajasthan are joining in.
47:11You know, there seems to be now a common rallying cause where the Aravilis are concerned.
47:16Do you think, you know, something will come out of it?
47:19There will be enough pressure to take back an absurd order like this?
47:23For sure.
47:24For sure.
47:25For sure, Priti.
47:26Because things have really got shaken up.
47:28It's been seven long years, like I said earlier.
47:31And during those times, we have faced many challenges to the Aravilis.
47:35A lot of issues of dilution of forest laws.
47:39And, you know, you in the media are fairly conversant with whatever has been happening in the background.
47:44But I want to point out one thing over here.
47:48On November 19th, two out of three judges in the Supreme Court recalled the order that halted retrospective green permits.
47:58Now, why did that happen?
47:59There is no need for that.
48:01You know, then this whole definitions issue, one after another, different, different definitions are coming into the picture.
48:07There are scores of such incidents that are, you know, lining up.
48:12I mean, we have been fighting for the Aravilis right from the time in February 2019, when the first threat in the form of an amendment to PLPA, which is the Punjab Land Preservation Act, a hundred-year-old act, that came up.
48:27And that would have actually, again, put out something like 68,000 acres would have been opened up of the Aravilis in Haryana, if had that gone through.
48:39So, you know, it's a different thing that the Supreme Court, the Honorable Supreme Court put a stay on it.
48:43So, right, since then, whether it was the NCR draft plan, 2041, whether it was the Forest Conservation Act, the amendment to that, we've been just at it.
48:52And it's not just four, five of us.
48:54It's many people over the years, hundreds and thousands, students, teachers, professionals, you know.
49:00And, yeah, and this time, we are really hoping that this time it's going to be different.
49:08The government will have to take cognizance of what the citizens want.
49:13The citizens are no longer deaf, dumb, blind.
49:17They are not...
49:18Let's hope that happens.
49:21And let's hope that happens and let's endeavor, you know, fair point.
49:26Now, I'm running out of time, you know, ma'am, but ladies, thank you for taking the time out and, you know, and joining us this evening and putting out, you know, what you've said.
49:35It's very, very pertinent, important questions, some of them deeply disconcerting in terms of why was one report overlooked over the other
49:42and other eventualities that happened right before the November 20th ruling of the top court.
49:49We're going to keep a keen eye and we're going to try and do at least our bit in this.
49:53Thank you for joining us.
49:55With that, it's a wrap and to the point this evening.
49:58We're going to pick up the issue again tomorrow on the same show to stay with us.
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