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00:00And it's seven minutes now past the hour.
00:10Our number across the country is 1-800-449-TALK and locally, 664-8255.
00:17I'm Bob White.
00:18I'm David Masters.
00:19This is Radioactive Talk on the Talk Radio Network.
00:21Our guests on this particular program are Rick and Evan, and they've devoted their lives
00:27along with a number of other people on the planet.
00:30To waking the rest of us up to some very important truths as they see it.
00:34And one of the important truths is the end of civilization as we know it.
00:38Is that correct?
00:39Get right up on the mic.
00:40We feel very strongly that this is the end times that was prophesied by in the Bible.
00:47And that is in fact one of the messages.
00:49And that you bring that.
00:52This is part of our message, yes.
00:54Let me ask you this.
00:55How do you know you're not hypnotized?
00:57Or do you see you sort of brainwashed?
00:58Hypnotized?
00:59Do I look brainwashed?
01:00Yeah.
01:03But then again, so do I.
01:05No, I think you do.
01:07You have a particular look on your face of a person who is in a hypnotic trance.
01:12Well, when you mentioned being brainwashed, I think we've thought about that term over, you know,
01:19over some time and we feel that in a lot of ways, we hope we are.
01:23Well, at the end of the world, we hope we are able to share it on our minds, we hopey.
01:32Tien Do gave us the tools to brainwash ourselves, literally wash out our humanness from our
01:59brain. And that's the same thing that was meant by baptism. It was washing your humanness
02:07out of you and starting fresh, like a new creature, like the butterfly, the beginning
02:13of the butterfly. The mind that you had as a human is aborted, and the soul that was
02:21given to you is filled with next level information, next level mind, and a new creature is
02:29born. Brainwashing is one of the controversial terms in this field. And there are some academics
02:37who want us to think that it doesn't exist. But as someone who brainwashed people, I can
02:42guarantee you that it does exist.
02:48One of the myths about cults is that they're all religious. And in fact, there's many different
02:53kinds of cults. I myself was in a political cult, the Democratic Workers' Party. We were
03:04a very strict Marxist-Leninist organization. I thought that I was going to help bring about
03:11social change. After about the sixth year, I got very disillusioned. I didn't stay out
03:20of any kind of loyalty to the leader. I didn't stay even out of any loyalty to the belief system
03:26at that point. I stayed because I was scared, and I couldn't figure out how to leave. So I
03:32was in for about 10 and a half years. People do go through a very deep psychological change
03:43that is brought about by the indoctrination methods in the group. And the group really believed
03:50that they were training for this trip to outer space.
03:54They said, we want to be part of a crew, a crew which acts as a whole. And they looked
04:02at Star Trek and said, that's it.
04:10Captain's law is 984-1153.7. Our destination is planet Deniv 4, beyond which lies the great
04:19unexplored mass of the galaxy. We watched several approved TV programs. Star Trek was one of them.
04:31It was about expanding our potential into space travel, which was analogous to what we were doing.
04:41Initiate docking procedures, maneuvering thrusters only.
04:49The door used to say, the Borg is a good model. He espoused the Hive mentality of being a cog in the wheel
05:05for the benefit of the overall collective. We two are on a quest to batter ourselves,
05:13evolving toward a state of perfection. Who are you?
05:19I am the Borg.
05:21The Borg have a collective consciousness. There are no individuals.
05:26Though, said, that's like depicting the next level, the members of the Borg.
05:31I thought, ooh, that's kind of like uncomfortable.
05:36A cog in the wheel is a very significant item. When you're in our father's kingdom, serving as a member
05:45of a crew. We are the Borg. Resistance is futile.
05:51I gave away my identity in favor of the identity of a group member.
06:01But if you suppress something, it'll come out some other way.
06:17In the group, we obviously didn't go out and get haircuts at a barbershop. So we would cut each other's hair.
06:36I was a hair cutter at one point. I've cut hair, you know.
06:40Oh! Well, the next time you come in, you're going to be cut by hair.
06:43I get it right here.
06:44Within the first couple of years after tea passed, we were gathered in the main room.
06:57Do was taking questions and I raised my hand to make an observation.
07:04Because it was in the morning, my voice was a little bit huskier.
07:13He mimicked the depths of my voice with a pronounced bass.
07:21His intention was to remind me of, not if I was being overly male.
07:31Since we're moving into a world that is genderless, we are doing everything that we can do to not
07:39identify with gender. But I was humiliated. I felt this smoldering anger come up in me.
07:52And then after that, I gradually developed this severe inability to speak like I have still.
08:17Because there's always this push-pull, this suppression.
08:26I wrote a note to know, telling him I'm feeling I can't be in the group anymore.
08:33He came to talk to me and said, you are throwing away your opportunity to graduate.
08:43You haven't done anything to displease me. There's no reason for you to leave.
08:50And I kept returning to this gut knowing and saying, I'm sorry, I have no choice.
08:59A couple of days after I arrived in Calgary, Erica called me on the phone.
09:12And of course there would have been somebody else on the extension. Check partner.
09:19She was weeping, pleading with me to come back. I said to her, I feel like it would help you
09:33to spend time outside the group to get some perspective.
09:40She didn't say anything. I don't know if she would have wanted to say anything, but
09:46she had her check partner on the extension. That was the last time I spoke to her.
10:02I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
10:15This is the thing people don't understand about leaving cults. It's like you're,
10:19you're leaving your whole world and you don't know what's out there and you've been fed a bunch
10:24of bull about what's going to happen to you. In Heaven's Gate, you weren't this person.
10:31So you really had nothing to go back to. And so to me, that's a far deeper type of indoctrination.
10:39Steve Hassan is a world renowned cult expert. He himself was recruited into a cult at 19 years
10:45of age. Now he has written a book called Combating Cult Mind Control. Steve, what's going on here?
10:52People can be systematically broken down, indoctrinated through controlling information,
10:59controlling their behavior, controlling their thoughts, controlling their emotions and made into
11:05obedient, dependent slaves or clones of the cult leader. In my work, counseling people who've left
11:13cults, you know, physically leaving the cult doesn't get it out of your head, especially if you've been in
11:20for years. People tend to blame the members. They did not appreciate the robust amount of social,
11:33psychological, destructive mind control techniques that were systematically applied.
11:40They made people cut off from their family and friends. They made people be in couples,
11:48so they had no privacy. They changed their names. They changed their clothing. They changed their diet.
11:55It's classic mind control, in my opinion, to create a new pseudo-identity that was obedient.
12:07The experiment of Solomon Ash examines behavior under the pressure of social forces.
12:13In my practice, when I'm doing interventions with people, I show videos of the Ash conformity study.
12:21The experiment you'll be taking part in today involves the perception of lengths of lines.
12:27You're to look at the line on the left and determine which of the three lines on the right
12:31is equal to it in length. And everybody was in on the experiment except the person in seat six.
12:40And they start giving the correct answer for two rounds, and then they all start giving the wrong answer.
12:46Two. The subject denies the evidence of his own eyes and yields to group influence.
13:03And this experiment has been done over and over again for decades, and the answer universally is
13:10two-thirds of everyone who does this experiment starts giving the wrong answer.
13:17One. They must be right. There are four of them and one of me. One.
13:23We all want to think that we're independent, and we would never agree. But the science,
13:30the social science says, we're programmed to fit into groups. We're going to start adapting
13:37to the people in our environment in order to fit in.
13:40Hi. Hi. We're glad you're here.
13:43When you're in a cult, especially for any length of time, you're in what I call a self-sealing system.
13:49This is a social system that's closed in on itself. Your free will is under the will of the leader
13:56and the group. So you're only doing what you need to do to stay in the good graces of the group.
14:02And what ended up happening was there was these idle threats, from my point of view, of fear
14:12that if you miss the boat, you may not get another chance.
14:17Let me honor you on the end of this.
14:19Abba!
14:20Abba!
14:21Fear pressure is so important in these groups, right? So you can see, you know,
14:27Siroti doing it so that you know you should be at least as dedicated as Siroti.
14:31So you're often comparing yourself to the people who look like they're more devoted,
14:37so that you can be ridding yourself of all these human characteristics that are in this
14:43body that you happen to be living in.
14:47I'm afraid that here I need to get a little personal.
14:52Sex is the strongest drug. There's not a drug. There's not a morphine or anything that is produced by
15:00chemicals or plants of this world as strong as that drug.
15:07It's something we have to go through the withdrawal of. We have to overcome.
15:13Just looking at a female would inflame the, you know, the hormones in my body. And you would just
15:25constantly try to find techniques that would eliminate that desire.
15:31We had a procedure that if you had a nocturnal emission, they had washcloths set aside in the
15:39bath chambers so you'd clean up before you went back to bed.
15:43And I didn't want to use it because I didn't want to expose that I had a nocturnal emission.
15:51I did feel guilty about it. And then they made it into a sign out so that they would know who had a nocturnal emission.
16:01Having to admit to it and the shame around it, the defeated feeling like you almost had to go back to square
16:12one, uh, was enough for me. And I think I could speak for everybody to keep them in check.
16:19And, uh, this is, uh, Dick Jocelyn. He had been recruited in Los Angeles in 1975.
16:32He was obviously a very attractive guy and he became one of Doe's helpers, uh, after T died.
16:40One of the core members of the group. Doe, of course, was gay. And Dick Jocelyn was gay.
16:50And one day Doe called him aside and said,
16:56I hate to tell you this, but my vehicle is becoming attracted to your vehicle. And so I've got to
17:03relieve you of your responsibility of being one of my helpers.
17:07And Dick was absolutely devastated.
17:13Marshall Applewhite didn't like his homosexuality. And so he created a myth
17:18around that piece that he didn't like. He came to a conclusion about his body that it was abhorrent.
17:26So he held a meeting and he said that he had a nocturnal emission and he was investigating
17:33having himself castrated. Would any of you have reservations of having the same procedure done?
17:41And I didn't have any reservations. I was committed to being celibate for the rest of my life.
17:47If, if your eye offend you, pluck it out. It's the same idea. If something is so offensive to you that
17:55your control is threatened by it, then why shouldn't you dispose of it if you have that option to do it?
18:01Not that I have ever talked anyone into taking that action.
18:06I think Doe was greatly influenced by some of the stronger members at that point,
18:12who fed him some of the more extreme ideas. And that's not unusual in a group.
18:18It kind of took control of him. I think in a sense he, he was also a victim.
18:27I was told that, for example, the castrations, uh, was not his idea and was actually Siroti's idea.
18:35He was one of the more gung-ho members.
18:39Siroti's the clown of the class, or I shouldn't say that. I'm teasing him as I always do.
18:46Siroti was always a go-getter. You know, his Irish vehicle, and it was very quick.
18:53He would run to go do things. There was a task and people would criticize him for running.
18:58Never shy of energy. You always have to tone him down. We keep saying, down, Siroti.
19:05I had this thought, Siroti was going to beat me to the punch of having this castration experience.
19:13In my mind, it was like giving proof to the next level that I was all the way in.
19:18This is terribly human. It was like competitive.
19:24Doe said, we've set up a sterile room and we're going to proceed doing the castrations
19:30that you all have convinced me that you wanted.
19:33Doe made a sign and on the sign it said Mexico and he put that above the door so that if we ever
19:41were questioned by authorities, we could honestly say that we went to Mexico to do it.
19:47It was Liv Odie and Jan Odie over there and Liv Odie was going to perform the procedure because she was
19:52a nurse and she had worked for an orchiectomist, an individual that removed testicles.
20:00Doe said, who's going to go first?
20:06And so he flipped a coin and Siroti won the toss.
20:10So he got to choose who would go first and he wanted to go first.
20:16Liv Odie cut the testicle sack open and I almost fainted.
20:21So it was done, but then Siroti's testicle sack started to get bigger and, you know,
20:34getting a little iffy and Siroti started to moan.
20:41And Doe said that he did a terrible thing.
20:51You went too far, he said. He said, I went too far to allow this to happen.
20:56And you need to take me to the police.
21:03And Liv Odie and Jan Odie and I said, no way.
21:08We'll take care of it.
21:09We didn't want to go to a hospital because we were afraid that something would be seen as illegal.
21:19And we didn't want that to get back to Doe.
21:21And so we ended up calling a priest, seeing if he had any experience with anybody that
21:31chose to be castrated.
21:33And the priest didn't know what we were talking about.
21:37He wasn't any worse, but he wasn't any better either.
21:40It was just, what can we do to, you know, to fix this?
21:48We decided to bring him to a hospital.
21:50Siroti stayed there overnight for observation.
21:54I was wired.
21:54I mean, it was like people say that when they're in a big crime scene or something,
21:58it's like surreal.
21:59That's what I was experiencing.
22:01I was surreal about this.
22:03And Jan Odie and I went to the pier and we threw the testicles in there.
22:12I don't know if that was necessary or not, but we didn't want any evidence.
22:16And Doe at that point said that he didn't want to continue with the castrations.
22:23And I know I was disappointed.
22:30But then they found some doctors that would do the procedure.
22:33And Doe was also castrated.
22:38Eventually, there were, depending on which source you look to,
22:42between seven and nine men within the group who had been castrated.
22:48But most of the men were not interested in having the surgery done.
23:03They were not interested.
23:12My father had issue with how they castrated themselves to overcome their sexuality.
23:21That was something Billy couldn't identify with doing.
23:29And he just left.
23:34And then my mom came back.
23:35They had a way of relating to each other since they had both been in the cult.
23:44And it became very isolating to them.
23:49So I knew there was a possibility for them to rejoin the cult.
23:54They didn't say when.
23:56It was just a matter of time.
23:58I was living in this constant state of limbo.
24:05I was living in this constant state of limbo.
24:13This was a group of people who were free to come and go.
24:16There were many people who left of their own free will,
24:18including some who were told to leave because they weren't following the rules.
24:22This little classroom dwindled to 50.
24:30And then dwindled down to a couple dozen.
24:36Starting in 1991, the group engaged in a media onslaught trying to reach out to new members.
24:44Partially because the group had really shrunk.
24:47But it's also because for many members and leaders of the group,
24:49they thought they were approaching the end.
24:52Not just the end of the group, but the potential for the end of the world.
24:56Now at the end of the age, I'm afraid I feel is right upon us.
25:01It's going to come, and I don't want it to sound like a prophet.
25:06But my gut says, and everything else that I know points to,
25:11that it's going to come before the turn of the century.
25:17This was a time that was rife with end of the world fears.
25:23And there were a lot of new religious movements in the 1990s that looked to the year 2000 and the few years before and after that
25:31as a moment at which the world was going to end.
25:33This is the countdown to the coming of Christ, folks.
25:38We don't know the day and the hour of Matthew 24, 36, but Jesus said, you'll know when it's near.
25:43And as far as our departure, we don't really know whether we're going to depart with that end or whether our departure will be before it or somewhere in between or anything like that.
25:53And that for 16 years, we haven't shared this truth.
25:58And now, all of a sudden, we're getting instruction to give it out more clearly.
26:07And this is what you're witnessing tonight.
26:12They began a satellite television series called Beyond Human.
26:16They paid for 14 hours of time.
26:19Where were we?
26:20Remind me of our question again.
26:22How do I identify which guy?
26:25They took out an ad in USA Today, a national newspaper.
26:29It was a third of the page, I believe, and it cost $30,000.
26:35They put a P.O. box there and we got people who would correspond with us.
26:39And we started responding to the correspondence.
26:46They created several VHS tapes, which they mailed around to anyone who wanted a copy.
26:52From this, they were able to reconnect with several ex-members.
26:55Some new members joined.
26:57And then, of course, they went back on the road.
27:05Here we go.
27:06Great.
27:07How's this?
27:09We sometimes use an analogy of Star Trek.
27:19Most everybody, hopefully, has seen some kind of Star Trek show.
27:22You know, we've been in seclusion for 18 years and our description of this material is probably
27:27lacking. And if you could help us know where your areas are that we've left unclear, then we can help film in.
27:35Knowledge never ends. The only thing that ends is
27:38the human civilization, because that's a dead end street. It was designed not to work.
27:51Members are not often intellectually deprived, sociologically deprived, but oftentimes very
27:56intelligent people. What would make an intelligent person then essentially give up their life to
28:01somebody else?
28:02Well, as a former cult member and a licensed mental health counselor who's been working for 20 years,
28:07I can tell you that I've counseled literally thousands of people who are very bright, educated.
28:13And essentially, they're ignorant about cult tactics, that cults use deception, manipulation,
28:18hypnosis, behavior modification to get people in. And they're also situationally vulnerable.
28:23I've had a hundred or more cases where people described a vulnerable moment in their life
28:31when they were approached. Death of a loved one, illness, moving to a new city, state or country,
28:38losing a job. Where the person goes, God, tell me what I'm supposed to be doing with my life.
28:45And then, knock, knock, can we study the Bible with you?
28:57I first met up with the class in July of 1994 in Madison, Wisconsin, after I dropped out of college.
29:08I didn't really have a whole lot at that point. A really close friend of mine brought home a flyer
29:14for the meeting. Immediately, we both were fascinated by it and said, we have to do this.
29:21It was talking about how there are beings here right now from another level of existence,
29:28doing their last circuit around, gathering up individuals.
29:34As I was at the meeting, it was just a deep sense of recognition. I knew who they were and I knew what
29:40they were saying. For my brother, I think he was, in colloquial terms, right for the picking.
29:50He had attempted suicide once before the cult.
29:57And someone had left a copy of the USA Today in the break room at work and he picked it up.
30:02The cult had placed a full page ad making comments like, the earth is about to be recycled,
30:10this is your last opportunity. And he was drawn to that.
30:17He was looking for a place to belong. People that he felt he could align with.
30:22And the story wasn't going well. I think that was the trigger because a couple of months later,
30:37we got one of these recruitment flyers for this group talking about UFOs and all that. Then we
30:42knew we were in trouble. When she called home, I said, hi Gail, what are you doing? And she said,
30:47did you get my flyer? And we said, yes. And she said, well, that's what I'm doing. What do you think of it?
30:51Oh, when you're coming home? I don't know. Probably never.
30:56Oh, no, Gary, you've got to come. So what kind of group are you with?
31:01Well, it's kind of, kind of like moms, I guess. Oh, really?
31:06Yeah. Do you have an address or a phone number where I could get ahold of you if you need be?
31:12Well, keep in contact, baby, because I love you so much and I miss you awfully.
31:16And we figured, all right, all right, someday she'll realize this is not for her and she'll walk out.
31:23What question in the back?
31:31Yeah, I just wanted to say, this is not the first time your group has been to Portland.
31:37About 12, 15 years ago, I'm not sure, I can't tell you exactly what the date was. A couple of people
31:42came into town and they represented someone involved in peace. It was probably 1976.
31:49I seem to remember at the time, they were saying that UFOs were going to be coming and taking away
31:55the toes. It was going to be a physical taking away. Did that happen in any, did that happen in any way?
32:02No. While they were able to attract some new members, the attempts of the members of Heaven's Gate
32:17and Dota Reach Out really met widely with rejection.
32:21There must be something, some experience, some knowledge, some truth, some, something that has given
32:31you to know what you say you know. And I'm only asking you, what is it? What makes you different?
32:37Besides the fact that you recognize truth.
32:39Any questions?
32:44Why is this all so big? I don't know anything more now of who you are or who the representative is
32:53than when I walked through the door I had an hour ago.
32:56Years, there's been a lot of Jim Jones and things like that.
33:01What would distinguish what you're saying to do with the energy of people I'm sure of a schedule?
33:07Well, okay, if you have trouble discerning us from Jim Jones, don't follow us.
33:13Is that a literal part of your beliefs that you have to turn against your family and your friends
33:19and your neighbors and your brothers and sisters and your sons and daughters?
33:23What's with your families after all these years?
33:27How do you absolutely know that you are not deluding yourself?
33:32Well, first of all, it's no one else's business to afford deluding themselves.
33:37I have quite a question. Most of your messages are not much different from the basic Christianity.
33:45Why did you choose to quote this rock instead of following the basic Christianity?
33:53What you mean by basic Christianity, everything you've talked about is mentioned one way or another in the Bible.
33:59What burns me more than anything is, like that guy said, you know they had to stop me, but that burns me more than anything.
34:08Somebody says, I don't see anything different in what you're saying than everybody else saying.
34:14Well, what's different? You spent two hours there and what you got is from what we've been saying.
34:20Right, and he thinks you could have gone to church.
34:22You could have gotten from a church.
34:24Well, what did you call them? I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, boneheads.
34:28Yeah, that one young fella was a bonehead for sure.
34:32Yeah, he must have been brought to us to be an example for you all of what a bonehead is.
34:38Yeah, you asked about it earlier and now you got the real McCoy.
34:47was a bonehead for sure yeah he must have been brought to us to be an example for you all of what
34:53a bonehead is yeah you asked about it earlier and now you got the real mccoy living example
35:07you see look at you know he's plugged into a tree
35:11hey we have junotti with us and we understand that you have something you'd like to share
35:16why is this is for our clients and you may ask who are our clients we've had a little business
35:24that we call higher source from which we earned our income so we could consume while we were on
35:29this planet we always were self-supporting which a lot of entities that were in our position might not
35:38be at the time there weren't that many people who were heavily into computers as far as going out
35:47and making money one of the early members or cody chuck humphrey he actually had a computer shop
35:55and it was probably one of the very first computer shops way back in the 70s
36:00he introduced people to computers a lot of was self-taught there was a core group who were computer
36:10people and so they had the kind of nine to five jobby jobs and they would they would leave the warehouse
36:15every day about half the group worked outside the class to bring in funds after the trust button
36:28we had pretty good tasks at that point working you know professional jobs and computers
36:35sorority was a great assembly programmer and c programmer you know i couldn't really get with
36:40it like to that degree of technicalities they did have some really bright people and they tried to
36:49put their message out on the internet they did look to the internet as a way to reach out
36:58and connect with people they began uploading content to their website
37:03but they were greeted with effectively cyberbullying i think the best example of this are dale's usenet
37:14postings usenet is a online bulletin board system where you can post really almost anything and it's
37:22organized by topic doe posted to topics associated with artificial intelligence with science fiction with
37:31christianity and he posted a really a manifesto that he was jesus that he had come back that the
37:38world was ending the way to lead the earth was to join with him within the group it made sense to talk
37:45about disincarnated space aliens it made sense to talk about the next level these vehicles we occupy are
37:53human vehicles but we also recognize that the mind that we're attempting to
37:59graft into and receive our nourishment from comes from the kingdom level of heaven outside the group
38:07just looked like nonsense and it was treated as nonsense people posted incendiary rude responses
38:14saying that you're an idiot to believe this you must be crazy are you a cultist
38:20numbers of the group began to feel as if their attempts to reach out had failed
38:24and the sign had come for them to give up on our planet
38:31it's a very short time before our departure our thoughts will be of you
38:40we hope that your thoughts will be of our father's kingdom
38:46thank you
38:46they had become in their words a class and what happens with the class they graduate and that was
38:54the term they used they called it a graduation how are you gonna leave are you gonna have to kill
39:01those vehicles you're gonna be a you're gonna be a jim jones uh how are you gonna get out we don't know
39:10some vehicles may go back some vehicles may not go back they talked about it in a variety of ways but
39:17they never talked about it as suicide it was always the exit suicide would be to stay here on this planet
39:26this world is rotten and i would rather die in service to my interpretation of what god is
39:32than stay here and they didn't always talk about the exit as something that they would do to themselves
39:41there was a series of events that demonstrated at least to the members of heaven's gates that there
39:45was a war between the u.s governments and people who believed and acted differently people who love their
39:53god so in their own way that they end up being like what happened at randu weaver ruby ridge
40:01what happened at waco
40:07the standoff's been going on about 45 minutes now
40:11damn what we're talking about yes sir i've got people shot get the hell out of here i'll get off the property that's what i'm doing sir
40:17the credo of the uh branch davidian cult was preparing for the end of the world and it has
40:22been said that david koresh and his followers have been seeking some kind of confrontation
40:27well you know what they think of me they think i'm the son of god
40:31do that yeah i'm sure every cult in the united states like glued to the tv during that whole event
40:38and they're all thinking could this happen to us
40:40some members of heaven's gate feared the government was going to come and kill them
40:51however in a twist they actually thought this would be a good thing
40:55do openly talked with us with a group saying perhaps we could buy firearms learn to use them
41:09and be seen as a threat that would trigger our demise
41:15and then it's like that doesn't sound very nice you know and half of us will be dead and the other
41:21half will end up maimed and crippled and still stuck here on planet earth and sounds painful and so they
41:27didn't really like that idea i mean i don't care for any of
41:40the fame or glory of the human world it's absolutely worthless to me i can't wait to get out of here
41:45i apologize for being so emotional but that happens to be the truth i want to leave here now i'm in a
41:55vehicle that is already falling apart on me i feel that he got to a point where he didn't know any other
42:02way out that he had created this this enormous belief system and this this um this structure and this
42:09people that were totally totally committed to him personally he was their god
42:25we had a meeting in the top floor of the warehouse where we always had our meetings
42:31no head said he wants to hear from each individual if they have any reservations about
42:37suicide as an exit we would be taking a strong barbiturate and i would basically put our vehicles
42:44to sleep it was the gentlest way he could think about doing it there were some tears shed by some
42:52individuals definitely who i think had some real difficulties with contemplating it and i said wow
42:58that's huge i mean doe even said he's only been here two weeks and you know i'm talking about something
43:04incredibly drastic here at the same time i said well if that's something i have to consider down the
43:12line then that's something i have to consider you know he wasn't saying we're going to go do this
43:15tomorrow i said i had no reservations i always felt right from the beginning that i was going to lose
43:21my vehicle even though that's what i think would do a teaching in the beginning
43:29this is a powerful moment this was in mid 1990s some of them had been members since 1974. 20 years in a group
43:4020 years in a group living breathing imbibing the teachings the doctrines the practices of the group
43:47and being asked at that moment what do you think do you want to exit with us
43:54after that meeting five people eventually left including sawyer
44:01i left in september of 94 not long after that but not for that reason
44:16i was invested in just being in the program being uh with my teachers the people that i recognized that
44:26i believe were from outer space and from the next level that created the planet
44:30i was given so much
44:41i was overseer of a crew yeah tomorrow is going to be a zillion people around it's a little bit of an
44:50exaggeration for the camera i was looked up to by some of the students they kind of told me that
44:55so when i when i fell i think a number of people were pretty shocked we referred to our lifestyle
45:04as a monastic lifestyle in a sense like a monastery i was holding meetings where i was the primary
45:10speaker telling people that we had to give up all the sexuality and everything to become a member of
45:16the next level and yet i was a hypocrite i remember turning on mtv one time and boy did that inflame me
45:29you know just to see women dancing around you know half clad you know i was off the wagon i was
45:38occasionally masturbating i would have a thought and the thought was so powerful i couldn't i couldn't hold
45:45back i didn't know how to i didn't even have the desire to ask for help it was like it was that intense
45:54but so i was like you know like like two people i was like a schizophrenic person in a sense
46:05well see i didn't i didn't recognize
46:09that i was breaking those procedures was leading up to something
46:13so i was in the house where we were living and i was walking up the staircase and doe was walking down
46:27and he said you've been distant and sorry it's just that uh he was
46:46well i told him what i was doing and uh though he says uh so i already you have
46:59you have the potential to become a really good member of the next level
47:02and i don't want to throw you away
47:08because i wasn't influencing anyone else to get involved with sensuality
47:15he was willing to help me with it while i stayed in the classroom
47:20but then it didn't change me and i kept on giving in to masturbation and i i told the
47:32no that i feel like i needed to leave the group and so he got me a plane ticket and gave me 600
47:38you know it's it's it's really uh i'm really kind of a pitiful person really but then again
47:50you know i'm not the judge of myself and uh maybe i was doing the best i could
47:56do it when i come home at night i look up at the heavens
48:09people say to me frequently you were duped you know why don't you go on with your life instead of
48:15you know continuing to think about this but uh i still believe in all the teachings of tiendo and
48:23uh that if i continue to grow then i will
48:30potentially uh pass through the heaven's gate the birth canal
48:49it's gotta be a ufo everything is
48:53well this comet is amazing because it's very bright even to the naked eye you really don't
49:06need a telescope oh yes i can
49:11the hail bob comet is making its closest pass to earth coming to within 122 million miles of our planet
49:17it's the brightest comet that's passed through the solar system since 1577. comets so different from
49:28anything else in the sky that through history they've inspired and terrified people used to go out and
49:34kill themselves uh getting scared that the cover will you know blow up or something
49:39now as we get closer to the year 2000 and the end of the millennium more and more fringe groups are
49:47spreading doomsday predictions of the end of the human species chuck schramatt in houston texas chuck
49:54welcome to the program thanks a lot of people have felt something's going on with hail bomb well i have too
50:00this is a big thing it appears to be several times larger than the earth maybe about 150 000 miles away
50:17from hail bomb what could it be i have no idea
50:37yeah
50:45no one's
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