00:00We can cross to Thierry Vercoulon, Associate Researcher at the Africa Center of the think tank IFRI.
00:07Thank you for being with us here on France 24.
00:11Hello.
00:12Let's begin with what's billed as a peace deal.
00:17The protocol is a little bit odd.
00:19The leaders of DR Congo and Rwanda are slated to appear together in the coming minutes at the White House.
00:30These are live images that we're seeing now.
00:32And then they're going to have separate talks with Donald Trump, not at the same time.
00:38Your thoughts on that?
00:40Well, they are supposed to sign also bilateral agreements with Donald Trump, with the U.S. administration.
00:51And this is supposed to be the fourth and last step of the peace process that started in June this year.
01:02And that peace process had four agreements that were supposed to be signed.
01:09And the last agreements that were supposed to be signed, I mean, today, are the bilaterals agreements between the United States and Rwanda and the United States and DR Congo about investment.
01:22Yeah, investment where the United States, again, seems more like an interested party than a neutral broker.
01:29Yes, definitely.
01:32As it was said at the beginning, the strategic objective of the U.S. administration is to come back in the mining sector in the DRC.
01:45I say come back because the U.S. industry was already there at the beginning of the century, but they withdrew.
01:56Therefore, with that peace process and the final agreements, the objective is really to open the door for the American businesses in the Great Lakes region.
02:10Yeah, and the centerpiece, according to Africa Confidential, is this hydropower plant on the Ruzizi River.
02:20We can show perhaps a map.
02:22It's the Ruzizi River, which straddles both Congo and Rwanda.
02:31Do you ever see the Congolese and the Rwandans jointly working together at a moment?
02:39They're still at war.
02:40Do you see them working together on this hydropower plant?
02:43Well, I think on the hydropower plant, it's possible, but it seems to be far less possible when it comes to the mine that we see on your map, the Rubaiya mining area.
02:59That would be actually very difficult.
03:03But when it comes to the hydropower project, that seems to be much more feasible.
03:09In the discussion, in the economic discussion between Washington and the two countries, several projects have been indeed mentioned.
03:21And the most controversial ones are definitely the mining project and especially the Rubaiya mines, because it's under the M20 free control.
03:32Yeah, the Rubaiya, it's a coltan mine.
03:36And again, Africa Confidential reported back in July that Gentry Beach, who's close to Donald Trump, he's also been named more recently in an article by The Wall Street Journal about interests in Russia,
03:50that he would be interested in helping to exploit it.
03:54And there's also a further distance away, this mine in Manono, it's coveted by a company that's backed by both Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos.
04:09So there seems to be the hand of the United States in a lot of these mining ventures.
04:16Yes, well, the thing is that those two projects, those two mining projects are actually different.
04:22And when it comes to the Rubaiya coltan mine, indeed, as you said, this company, this American company is interested in that mine.
04:36But what to be more specific, it seems that they would work, they would have a joint venture with a Rwandan company.
04:45And this is probably unacceptable for Kinshasa.
04:48In addition, to get access to the Rubaiya mines, they will have to negotiate with the M23.
04:56And so far, the M23, as you reported earlier, is still at war with the Congolese government.
05:03So that seems quite, quite complicated.
05:05When it comes to Manono, and we can see where it's located on the map,
05:09that area, this is a lithium deposit that is not in the area controlled by the M23.
05:18And actually, there is no armed group controlling that area.
05:23The problem there is different.
05:25It's actually a corporate battle between an Australian-based company and a Chinese company called Zijin Mining,
05:34because the Congolese government awarded conflicting mining rights to those two companies.
05:43So there is a corporate battle about that.
05:45And in addition, the Congolese government provided allocated exploration mining rights to the Cobol Metals,
05:55which is, as you said, a subsidiary company run by Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates.
06:06So the problems between Rubaiya and Manono are two different problems.
06:12One, it's for the American companies to get access to an area that is ruled by an armed group, by the M23.
06:20And when it comes to Manono, it's to actually get involved into a corporate battle that is already ongoing.
06:27And do you see Felix Cisicchetti again agreeing that the minerals—because according—I'm just going to read to you what it says in the framework deal, the original one.
06:40It stipulated that Congolese minerals should be processed in Rwanda in, quote, transparent, formalized ways.
06:47That includes—because they do have cheaper electricity, they have a more efficient system on the Rwandan side.
06:53But do you actually see Felix Cisicchetti and Paul Kagame doing business together?
07:01No, when it comes to the minerals, it seems—coming from North Kivu and South Kivu, it seems to be very difficult politically speaking.
07:11In addition to that, there is a military aspect of the problem, because as it was reported, the fighting is still ongoing between the Congolese army and the M23, and there is still no peace.
07:30So, what's going to be happening in the White House today is actually another episode of the Trump comedy show that is completely disconnected from the reality on the ground in North and South Kivu.
07:44The Trump comedy show.
07:46Thierry Vircoulon, final question.
07:48This latest fighting in South Kivu, is that just because it's Thursday and there's fighting every day in the east of Congo?
07:56Or is it also linked to these signings in Washington?
08:00Well, I think there is a political meaning in that fighting, because that fighting has intensified for the past three days.
08:10And the political meaning is that the fighters on the ground, the fighting parties on the ground, are saying to Washington that they are not at all concerned by this peace deal that's going to be signed very far away from them.
08:28And, actually, that the reality on the ground will prevail.
08:34Thierry Vircoulon of the French think tank IFRI, so many thanks for speaking with us here on France 24.
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