The Truth About Baptist History

Bible News Prophecy

The denominational faith of the Baptist religion claims apostolic succession and obedience to Christ from even before the foundation of the church at Pentecost. But is their claim valid? If their claim is that they practice baptism then, yes, their claim is valid. But what about obedience? Does the Baptist faith believe what Jesus believed? Does the Baptist faith do what Jesus did? But does the claim to apostolic succession merely require baptism while adhering to doctrines never practiced or taught by Jesus Christ or the apostles or the church founded on Pentecost? Hardly. What is the real history of the Baptist faith as chronicled by some leading scholars and practitioners of that faith? What are the beliefs they really practice? Could the Baptist faith be classified as simply another belief system spawned from the Protestant movement? Watch this video and listen as Dr. Thiel shines the light of Biblical knowledge and understanding on the faith and practices of the early church. The time is at hand.  Here’s the link to our free eBook, “Hope of Salvation: How the Continuing Church of God Differs from Protestantism”, offered in this video that offers much more information on the differing views and practices of the Protestant faiths versus the practices of the true followers of the faith once for all delivered to the saints. https://www.cogwriter.com/protestant-ccog-differences.pdf Read the full article to this video titled “Were there always Baptists? ‘Trail of Blood,’ scripture, and history” at URL https://www.cogwriter.com/news/church-history/were-there-always-baptists-trail-of-blood-scripture-and-history/

Transcript

00:00Greetings, friends. This is Steve Dupuy for the Bible News Prophecy Program with Dr. Bob Thiel,

00:09bringing you news and analysis of world events in light of Bible prophecy.

00:15Dr. Thiel, the Baptists claim there have always been Baptists since the Church Age began.

00:20Is that accurate?

00:22Well, it depends on how you define Baptists. If the definition of Baptists is one who

00:27practices Baptism by immersion, then the answer is yes.

00:32What about the denomination called Baptists? Do they have doctrinal continuity with the original

00:38Christian Church?

00:39No, but a lot of Baptist historians have suggested that they have. They call this the perpetuity view,

00:48and it's often associated with a book called The Trail of Blood by the late Dr. James Milton

00:56Carroll. This was published back in 1931. It claims perpetuity, but an honest reading of it shows

01:05that no, they didn't have the original faith. Basically, they just point to the fact that

01:11infant baptism came up later, and they were in favor of it. But one of the things it says is,

01:17quote, in the first two centuries, the individual churches rapidly multiplied, and some of the

01:22earlier ones, such as Jerusalem, Antioch, Ephesus, Corinth, et cetera, grew. Serious error began to creep in.

01:30The loyal churches declared non-fellowship with those who accepted and practiced errors.

01:35Now, that's true, by the way. And while the bulk of the people in Ephesus and Antioch were faithful

01:43until sometime in the third century, Jerusalem and Corinth apostatized by the middle of the

01:51second century. Anyway, furthermore, I should point out that in The Trail of Blood, Dr. Carroll claimed

02:00certain loyal churches, but these were not loyal in the biblical perspective.

02:08Now, I want to read some other Baptist claim. It says, quote,

02:13the Novatians were Baptists. They continued on as Anabaptists.

02:19And among the persecuted people of God, there have been the Novatians,

02:22the Cathari, Paterines, Poletians, Petabruzians, Henricans, Arnoldists, Albigenses, Waldensens,

02:30Lollards, et cetera. And nearly all of them were occasionally designated Anabaptists or

02:36rebaptizers by their enemies. Well, here's the deal.

02:43Well, some groups might have held some Baptist doctrines. Many did not. For example, the Cathari

02:49Cathari and the Paterines considered the cross to be the mark of the beast.

02:54Okay? Yet modern Baptists use crosses as their religious symbol.

02:58And another example would be the Waldensians. They paid multiple tithes. They kept the Sabbath

03:02on Saturday. They didn't keep Easter. They weren't anything like modern Baptists.

03:08Now, I'm going to read something from Baptist pastor Tyler Robbins.

03:13He says, who are the Novatian Baptists? As much of this stuff is just inaccurate.

03:18He talked about the trail of blood being wrong. He talked about other Baptist historians being wrong.

03:27He said the problem is that Novatian was not a Baptist. And Novatian himself was baptized by pouring,

03:36not by immersion. Okay? And so, obviously, they were not. Now, Baptists, by the way,

03:44they don't believe in apostolic succession. And since they don't, that pretty much eliminates them

03:49having perpetuity anyway. Now, I want to read something inaccurate, an inaccurate claim from

03:56a Baptist minister named G.H. Orchard from the 19th century. He claims Baptists may be considered the

04:03only Christian community that stood since the time of the apostles. All Christian communities during the

04:09first three centuries were a Baptist denomination. The Oriental Baptist churches with their successors,

04:16the Paulicians, continued with purity until the 10th century. And they flourished until the Crusaders

04:23had to eliminate them.

04:24In what way are these claims inaccurate?

04:31Well, the Oriental churches would mean those of Asia Minor. And they had many doctrines that the modern

04:38Baptists opposed. And we have them documented in the free e-book we have, Hope of Salvation,

04:44How the Continuing Church of God Diffends from Protestantism, which is available at ccog.org.

04:49O-R-G. Anyway, the so-called successors called the Paulicians, by the way, were Binitarian.

04:57So they weren't Trinitarian. They kept Passover on the 15th of the first day of the month of the

05:03calendar. Whereas Baptists call Passover Easter, they keep it on Sunday. Paulicians also kept the

05:09seventh day Sabbath while opposing Sunday. They didn't keep Christmas. And the faithful ones who were

05:17called Paulicians were also pacifists. Anyway, in his book, D.H. Orchard also claimed that primitive

05:25Baptists began with John the Baptist. And he later included people like Ignatius of Antioch,

05:33Irenaeus of Lyon, and Theodophus of Antioch. And he considered the writings of John Chrysostom and

05:39Augustine of Hippo as testimonies of the fathers, and he called them great men. But for example,

05:46he pointed to Justin Martyr. Martyr said that if you teach, that you go to heaven when you die,

05:53you're not Christian. The reality is many, if not most of these primitive Baptist ministers,

05:59Orchard claimed, held different doctrines. And for example, John the Baptist said that,

06:09this is recorded in Luke 1, verse 79, he was to guide our feet in the way of peace.

06:16Then in Luke 3, 14, the soldiers asked him, what should we do? And John said to them,

06:21don't intimidate anyone. Accused falsely, be content with your wages. Now, the word intimidate

06:26means due violence. So John the Baptist said you had to be pacifists. Well, the Baptists aren't

06:32pacifists. Okay? And he also quoted people like John Chrysostom and Augustine. Not only weren't they

06:40real Christians, they both taught infant baptism.

06:47Even if Dr. Orchard is wrong on some he called great men, could he still be right on the perpetual

06:54existence of the denominational Baptist church from the beginning of the church age?

06:59No, the doctrinal differences are just too broad.

07:03Okay.

07:05But on the 21st century on the internet, though, you can make people,

07:09read people who make these claims still. For example, Calvary Baptist Church believes

07:14that Baptistic church had existed from the time of Christ to present day.

07:18Some of God's people were known as Novatians in the year 250. Novatian converted on his deathbed.

07:30He had been a well-known and distinguished pagan philosopher.

07:36Are the Baptists claiming their doctrinal perpetuity through a pagan philosopher and elder of the

07:43church of Rome named Novatian? Yeah. And he was not baptized by immersion.

07:50Anyway, instead of claiming doctrinal perpetuity

07:54from the beginning, the late

07:58civil rights activist and Baptist minister, Martin Luther King Jr.,

08:04correctly concluded that his church, as well as other Greco-Roman, Catholic, and Protestant churches,

08:09adopted many traditions from Mithraism. Mithra is the pagan sun god. Anyway, it's a documented fact

08:16that modern Baptists adopted beliefs that the early churches didn't have and their faithful

08:21successors don't have.

08:24What are some of the ramifications if the Baptists actually had doctrinal continuity

08:30with unknown groups or portion of unknown groups?

08:33Well, and if they were the so-called faithful ones, that means basically about 1% of the world's

08:39population during the entire church age would have an opportunity to have salvation. And

08:46that's just wrong. And that was not a belief of the early church. The early church also was not

08:56Trinitarian. It was, it was, it was Sabbatarian.

09:03And, you know, some have wondered about the Seventh-day Baptists, but

09:08Richard Nichols, who's a late Church of God historian,

09:12he made several points about them as well.

09:16You, I'm going to read from one of what he wrote back in

09:181993.

09:20Seventh-day Baptists cannot

09:22valid, validly claim exclusion ownership of the history of Sabbatarians.

09:28Seventh-day Baptists, they do not agree doctrinally with their Sabbatarian ancestors.

09:35Early American

09:37Sabbatarians rejected the Trinity, the mortal soul

09:40teaching. They were against Christmas and Easter.

09:45And they promoted something closer to what the

09:49English lawlers and Maldensians did in the first century church.

09:53The oldest existing Seventh-day

09:55Baptist church in Millyard

09:57church in London began the 1600s.

10:01They always kept

10:02Passover, Lord's Supper, if you want to call it that,

10:05on the 14th day of

10:06the first Hebrew month.

10:09And this is not something Seventh-day Baptists do.

10:12Anyway,

10:13basically in the late 1700s,

10:16those who are now called

10:17Seventh-day Baptists adopted Protestant positions

10:19and they started to call themselves Sabbatarian Baptists.

10:22They also began to use the title

10:24Reverend for their ministers,

10:27insist on the

10:28immortality of the soul doctrine.

10:30They started to put steeples on their buildings

10:32and they became

10:34separate from Church of God brethren

10:36who they claimed to be their

10:38ancestors.

10:41And in

10:41by 1808,

10:43many Seventh-day Baptists considered the Protestants

10:46to be their true Christian brothers.

10:48And essentially,

10:49the Seventh-day Baptists

10:50are Protestants

10:51with the main difference

10:52that they go to church on Saturday.

10:54Do the modern-day Seventh-day Baptists

10:57hold the same doctrine

10:59as those

11:00they claim to be their ancestors?

11:02No, I mentioned a few of them.

11:04But also now,

11:05they even say that

11:05some of their churches

11:06will ordain women.

11:08And there's no historical evidence

11:09that early Baptists

11:11or Seventh-day Baptist types

11:12did.

11:13So that's

11:14one of the many

11:15problems that they run into.

11:18Anyway,

11:19if baptism by immersion

11:20is the only criteria

11:21of being a Baptist,

11:22then yeah,

11:23there's always had them.

11:24However,

11:25since they don't hold

11:27to numerous doctrines

11:28that the early church held,

11:29as well as

11:30the church of God

11:31has throughout history,

11:32no denominations

11:33called Baptists,

11:34including the Seventh-day Baptists,

11:36do not have

11:36perpetuity.

11:37What doctrines

11:40are those

11:41that the denominational Baptists

11:42failed to obey?

11:45Well,

11:45just consider the following

11:46about the first Christians.

11:48One,

11:48they kept the Seventh-day Sabbath.

11:50So that did not eliminate

11:51the Seventh-day Baptists.

11:53Second,

11:53they kept Passover

11:54and the 14th.

11:55They didn't keep Easter Sunday.

11:56Well,

11:56that pretty much gets rid

11:57of the Seventh-day Baptists.

11:59Here's the other ones.

12:01They didn't eat

12:02biblically unclean meat,

12:03but modern Baptists do.

12:04They didn't accept

12:07the Trinity

12:09that Emperor Theodosius

12:10forced upon

12:11the world

12:12after the Council

12:12of Constantinople

12:14in 381.

12:16Early Christians

12:17opposed military service

12:18for Christians.

12:21I mentioned before,

12:22they didn't teach humans

12:22had immortal souls.

12:25They also taught

12:25the resurrected

12:26saints would reign

12:28on the earth

12:28before the second resurrection.

12:31And we know

12:32the Adabaptists

12:33were condemned

12:34by the Lutherans

12:36because they believe that,

12:37but the modern Bibles

12:38just don't.

12:39And

12:40early Christians

12:42taught God

12:42would call others

12:43to salvation

12:44in the age to come.

12:46Now,

12:46we in the

12:47Continuing Church of God

12:47hold on to these beliefs.

12:49And as I say,

12:51we have this

12:51fully documented

12:52in a free e-book

12:55called Hope and Salvation

12:56How the Continuing Church of God

12:58Differences from Protestantism,

12:59which is again

13:00free at ccog.org.

13:02Now,

13:04we're not the only ones

13:06who say

13:06the Church of God

13:07has had

13:07such continuity.

13:09For example,

13:09last century,

13:11the late Church of God

13:12leader,

13:13Herbert W. Armstrong

13:13pointed out,

13:15quote,

13:16the Church of God

13:16is in direct

13:18continuous succession

13:19from the Apostolic Church

13:21founded by Christ

13:22in 31

13:22AD.

13:24And as I mentioned,

13:26we have the doctrines

13:27that the early Church has,

13:28and those are documented

13:30in this book,

13:31mostly by citing

13:32Protestant translations

13:34of the Bible

13:34along with

13:35people that Protestants

13:37consider to be

13:37saints

13:38and scholars

13:41from them.

13:42Okay.

13:43Oh,

13:43Herbert Armstrong

13:44also said,

13:46the true Church

13:46continued

13:47a little flock

13:48almost unnoticed

13:49by the world.

13:50And that's certainly

13:50been the case.

13:52Anyway,

13:53if you're a Baptist

13:54or,

13:56for that matter,

13:56any other

13:57non-Church of God

13:57faith,

13:59I urge you to be

13:59like the Bereans

14:00of old

14:01in Acts chapter 17

14:02verses 10 to 11.

14:05When the Apostle Paul

14:07spoke of things

14:07they didn't really

14:08necessarily agree with,

14:10they searched the

14:11scriptures

14:11as well as

14:13facts of history

14:14to see if these

14:15things are so.

14:16And that's what

14:16I think you should do.

14:18All should do.

14:20Thank you,

14:21Dr. Thiel.

14:21For more interviews

14:22with Dr. Thiel

14:23in addition to written

14:24as well as audio articles,

14:26visit our website

14:27at BibleNewsProphecy.net.

14:29This is Steve Dupuy

14:30for the Bible News

14:31Prophecy Program.

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