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00:00We're on St. Mary's Bay in Nova Scotia, the richest part of Canada's billion dollar
00:05lobster industry where there's a war on the water.
00:09Go home.
00:10You go home, lady.
00:13Intimidation and frequent threats of violence.
00:16Places burning down, windows getting smashed in, houses being shot up, people getting shot
00:21at.
00:22You hear stories that's a little lawless sometimes around rural Nova Scotia.
00:25The fight over who gets to fish here has left communities bitter and divided.
00:29We're not pirates.
00:31We're not the villains.
00:32Does racism play a role here, do you think?
00:35No.
00:36A dispute with roots older than Canada itself.
00:40Labs is not going anywhere.
00:42It's been around for a very long time.
00:44We look at who is cashing in on the chaos.
00:47I'm sick of it.
00:48There's nothing to do with conservation.
00:49It's just, it's total greed.
00:51Wait, going anywhere is even.
00:53I'm Steven D'Souza.
00:54This is The Fifth Estate.
01:24There's some big ones in there, boys.
01:25Some big ones.
01:26Save a couple of those.
01:27You want to save a couple of these?
01:28Yeah, I want to take a picture of us holding, all three of us holding jumbo's.
01:29Just take my picture with this big lobster.
01:30The kids will get a kick out of it at least.
01:31And remember, you've got to hold it out like this.
01:33Anybody else want a cool picture of the lobster?
01:34Out on the water, it's easy for Matt Cope to lose himself in the moment.
01:40To cast aside briefly the battle taking place here.
01:41It's just, when you're out here, the rest of the world almost don't exist for me.
01:42It's just, when you're out here, the rest of the world almost don't exist for a minute.
01:43Yeah, I think it's one of the most important projects in the world.
01:44As far as you can see, the water is going to be a big lobster.
01:45The big lobster is going to be a big lobster.
01:46The big lobster, I think the kids will get a kick out of it at least.
01:47And remember, you got to hold it out like this.
01:48Anybody else want a cool picture of the lobster?
01:53You guys want a cool picture of the lobster?
01:55Out on the water, it's easy for Matt Cope to lose himself in the moment.
02:00To cast aside briefly the battle taking place here.
02:04When you're out here, the rest of the world almost don't exist for a minute.
02:12How many traps do you put out usually?
02:15Like if I'm doing water?
02:17Yeah.
02:18When I was doing it here and I got charged, I was fishing a half a shot of gear.
02:22So I was fishing 150 traps and I had two other band members with me.
02:26So we were fishing about 50 traps a piece.
02:31And during the commercial season how many?
02:34We fished 300 which is a full shot.
02:37But this is the boat you were in when all the trouble went down initially.
02:45Navigating the politics of these waters is far from easy.
02:49Every time the 39 year old father of six sets out, he's putting himself at risk of threats, violence and arrest for something he believes he has every right to do.
03:01What do you want them to understand about the dispute like what's happening here?
03:04I want them to understand that we're not poachers, we're not pirates.
03:07I was selling my catch to make money for my family.
03:10The waters in Atlantic Canada have long been harvested for lobster.
03:14The region is parceled into sections, each with its own strict rules for when lobster boats can go out.
03:20These are known as commercial seasons.
03:22Here in this part of Nova Scotia, St. Mary's Bay is fished commercially from November to May.
03:28One in five lobsters fished in Canada come from here.
03:31You weren't hiding anything, right?
03:33You were?
03:34No, absolutely.
03:35I had bright buoys.
03:37I had my phone number, my name on them.
03:40I actually wanted them to call me so I could explain to them what I was doing.
03:44Cope is licensed to fish during this area's commercial season, but he also fishes much smaller amounts out of season.
03:54A controversial practice that more than once has caught the eye of officers with Fisheries and Oceans Canada, or DFO.
04:02I have no problem fishing in season.
04:04I mean, that's what they're always going on about.
04:06Oh, if you just fish in season, if you just fish in season.
04:08And then we fish in season and it's still a big deal.
04:11And basically they said they were going to take my boat.
04:13Who's that, DFO?
04:14DFO, yeah.
04:20Cope is Mi'kmaq.
04:22They're the predominant First Nations group in Nova Scotia.
04:27He traces his right to fish here to treaties signed with the British Crown in the 1700s.
04:33So there's a hierarchy here in Nova Scotia because of these treaties that there's a hierarchy.
04:38It goes commercial-based fisheries, which is a privilege-based fisheries, and then there's rights-based fisheries, which is higher.
04:47In the heart of St. Mary's Bay, at the wharf in Sonyeville, the dispute over the hierarchy, as Cope describes it, unfolded in 2020.
04:56Mi'kmaq launched a rights-based fishery outside the commercial season, and it caught international attention.
05:02We're right on schedule. We're going to have our elder Becky Gillian give us an opening prayer.
05:09Journalist Maureen Gugu covered the event.
05:11Five years ago, during the middle of the COVID pandemic, the Sbegnegiti First Nation decided to launch its own moderate livelihood fishery.
05:21We covered the speeches. We got shots of them giving out lobster tags to fishermen, and then they were going on the boats.
05:32As soon as they went on the boats, they were met with, like, a flotilla of non-indigenous fishers who were ready to take those traps out of the water, and there was clashes.
05:45Not welcome here.
05:46No, you're welcome here.
05:47You just said we're not welcome. You said to go home.
05:49Come spend our money instead of taking our money. Go home.
05:52You go home, lady.
05:54And that went on for about a good two-month period in that area, and it got very violent. It got very scary.
06:05They said they won't let me leave unless they have my lobsters.
06:09There was fishermen, you know, who were trapped inside of a fishing plant at one point, and with non-indigenous fishermen threatening to burn them out.
06:19That wharf is now fenced off. Entry is controlled.
06:29But it doesn't keep away the tension that's still sharply felt here by the First Nations fishers on the other side, even in this postcard setting.
06:49The Clare region of Southern Nova Scotia takes pride in its Acadian roots and its connection to the sea.
06:57Here, the lobster business touches everyone in some way and is the lifeblood of these communities.
07:03Outside of the Halifax area, once you start coming west, probably every coastal community, its main economic driver is the lobster fishery.
07:11The lobster fishery is the big enchilada. If it wasn't for that, I'm not sure how many of these smaller communities, coastal communities,
07:18actually could survive. My father owned a small fish plant.
07:22Anyway, I ended up, like a lot of the smaller communities around here, most everybody ended up going fishing.
07:27Bernie Berry sets the table for what the commercial fishers see as the key issue.
07:32At the end of the day, it's the stock is the main worry here.
07:38And without the stock, a healthy stock, or a sustainable stock, nobody has nothing.
07:43Okay? And so we've got to get our head together and we've got to take better care of this.
07:50There's still lobsters here, but you cannot harvest them in the summer and expect them to be there in the commercial season in the fall.
07:57It doesn't work that way. And the problem with the harvest in the summer, it's unregulated. It's not supposed to be happening.
08:04When you talk to commercial fishermen, they say that the moderate livelihood fishery, anything out of season, is dangerous to the stocks.
08:12They may say that to you. They never say that to me. Somebody that knows better?
08:16The question of First Nations' impact on lobster stocks has been trailing them for a long time.
08:22Questions remain unresolved. What are the natives entitled to? How many plan to enter the fishery and for which species?
08:29That's what the fight's all about. Lobsters. A few lobsters.
08:33First Nations fishers say their treaty rights were upheld by a 1999 Supreme Court decision.
08:39Donald Marshall was charged and convicted of fishing and selling eels without a license.
08:45Marshall was out to make a point on behalf of all Mi'kmaq, that they have the right not only to hunt and fish without a license, but also to make a living doing it.
08:54The Supreme Court said Mi'kmaq, just 5% of the province's population, have a right to fish and sell their catch, to make what the court called a moderate livelihood.
09:08We're here to make sure our kids in the future will have something better.
09:14Because that's so weak, like look at them.
09:18Some bands have negotiated agreements with DFO to do that, but the government wants them to sell only during commercial seasons.
09:26It looks like he's going to make it though. Oh yeah, he's flopping, he's swimming now.
09:29But Cope says he should be able to fish for a moderate livelihood when needed.
09:34I don't like that they limit the potential of what we can make based on a term such as moderate livelihood.
09:41The opposition is still there, though not as overt as the open clashes of 2020.
09:48Indigenous fishers, a lot of them have talked about dealing with racism on the waters when they fish with non-Indigenous fishers.
09:57They're dropping traps, but the guys behind the non-Native fishers are cutting their traps as soon as they drop them.
10:09I don't think people realize how racism affects an individual.
10:13It's very personal, and it's very stressful, and sometimes your life is put at risk because of it.
10:19So I think, you know, for the fishermen that I've interviewed, they would prefer to have a season where they could fish without feeling like they're being discriminated against.
10:32Some folks, some First Nations individuals will say that they are permitted to have a moderate livelihood fishery.
10:42Well, the Supreme Court said that.
10:44Yeah, but it's never been defined.
10:46You know, does racism play a role here, do you think?
10:51I don't think.
10:53I mean, back in 2020, that's how, unfortunately, I think it was painted.
10:58But I think what it was, I mean, certainly the communities here and the fishermen were painted as racist because, I mean, things exploded.
11:07First Nations gear was cut off and all that.
11:10That was just pent up frustration, anger, because nobody in the government seemed to be or wanted to help, and they took it upon themselves.
11:20Was it right? No. But, no.
11:25We're just going to tie it around the post here.
11:30What do you think is at the heart of their opposition?
11:32It's a very passionate field, fishing.
11:34I mean, right from your fishing ground, how you tie your traps, what bait you use, your family's been doing it for so long, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
11:42So that if you feel like you're entitled to something, I get that they're going to be mad that there's people out there fishing and making money.
11:48Well, they're not.
11:49But we could talk about residential schools.
11:52We could talk about the systematic racism.
11:55We could talk about the racism we get from the commercial fishing.
11:57But when it all comes down to it, we have a treaty right to do so.
12:00And if any one of them could fish in between the season, you guess what?
12:05They'll be out there fishing.
12:07But fishing out of season, as Cope has been doing, puts him in a tough spot, not just with commercial fishermen.
12:17DFO considers that illegal, leaving him few options to sell whatever he catches.
12:24Do you find you have places to sell when you're doing the moderate livelihood?
12:28How hard is it to sell during that time?
12:31It all depends on you.
12:33I have the connections and the resources to be able to sell to very broad markets.
12:39But for the person that don't have as good connections, then that's all they can do.
12:48Somebody can really nickel and dime them, right?
12:50In 2023, Canada's lobster industry pulled in almost $1.8 billion, almost half of that coming from Nova Scotia.
12:59With so much money in play, Bernie Berry alleges fishing in the summer is being leveraged into big sales.
13:08This is simply a notice-season commercial black market fishery.
13:14Because it's profitable and most of the stuff that's being bought in here is being bought in cash and or drugs.
13:22Your average lobster buyer isn't doing that, so somebody else has got to be involved and stuff like that.
13:28How do you know that? Are you hearing stories or reports?
13:31Yeah, well, again, it's just anecdotal stuff.
13:34But what is the reality here?
13:40In a place where little goes unnoticed, we try to get to the bottom of what's really happening on the wharf.
13:48Coming up...
13:49How do I look? Terrible?
13:50We follow the money in the alleged black market.
13:53You can say I came out threatening or I sound threatening to arrest me.
13:56Who is in danger?
13:57As soon as I looked up at the wall and saw a pretty clear hole, it was pretty obvious it was a bullet.
14:03And just who has the right to fish lobster in these waters?
14:06Even if half of what they're saying is true, most people wouldn't even believe it.
14:25In this seaside town, for some the only thing bigger than the love of lobster is the fear of the crime around the industry.
14:32This is the Clare region with a population of just 8,500.
14:36Where the lobster business in this small town has brought big city problems.
14:41I mean, I grew up here. I love my hometown.
14:47And it's hard seeing it being abused so badly.
14:51The towns along this shore have recently seen more than their fair share of crime.
14:56The Fifth Estate has tracked allegations of extortion, assault, arson, even threats to kill a dog.
15:05At one point it was happening so frequently, you couldn't even keep up with what was going on.
15:09And there's poaching going on from Yarmouth to anywhere.
15:11You know, it's so vast. The ocean's hard to control.
15:14J.C. Cummo runs a business at the Mittaggan Wharf.
15:17It's coming primarily from the fact that this legal underground poaching activity generates a lot of money to a handful of people.
15:25And they will do everything they possibly can to keep it going.
15:28But what is really tearing apart this community?
15:32Many commercial fishers pointed the finger at the First Nations activity on Soniaville Wharf.
15:37First Nations can go out in the summer legally under a license known as FSC.
15:43Fishers can harvest limited amounts for food, social and ceremonial purposes.
15:49But they're not allowed to sell their catch.
15:52According to this internal report from DFO, authorities have evidence confirming that lobster-caught in FSC is being illegally sold,
16:02often through unreported cash sales.
16:05But is that the whole story?
16:07This guy right here is a small jumbo, so he's between three to four pounds.
16:12That's a big boy.
16:14Joffrey Jobert moved back to the Clare area from Halifax in 2020 to manage the family business.
16:24To the outside eye, the lobster processing business seems straightforward.
16:29So in a crate that we had seen earlier, those grey boxes, they hold about a hundred pounds just mixed in there.
16:35Buy lobsters from boats on the wharf, get the seafood out to distributors around the world.
16:41And then the trays are going to individually partition each lobster, and that's just to prevent them from eating each other.
16:47Did you have a sense of what you were getting yourself into?
16:49I had known a little bit that it can be a somewhat rough industry and one that's not always governed the best, I guess you could say.
16:56Or you hear stories that's a little lawless sometimes around rural Nova Scotia.
17:01Buyers like Jobert have to go buy the book.
17:04We're not allowed to buy out of seasoned lobster, and I think we would face a hefty fine if we did.
17:08I don't think the indigenous people support or want any of the criminal activity that's going on that their middlemen may be doing.
17:15I think they're just trying to find a place to sell their catch.
17:17So typically, like commercial fishermen, the last little while, they make them like $8 to $10 a pound.
17:22And then I've heard rumors that the indigenous fishermen are only going to pay around $4 a pound because it is an illegal lobster,
17:28kind of like a gray zone lobster, whatever you want to call it.
17:31Yeah.
17:32And I think that's just too low for the species they're dealing with.
17:36But I mean, from what you've seen, I mean, would you describe it as organized crime or what would you describe it as?
17:41Somewhat organized, but I wouldn't say it's like a huge operation or such large scale.
17:48In early 2024, Jobert started buying from a new boat and trouble followed.
17:57The story goes that that boat had upset some people.
18:00So they started making small threats here and there, right?
18:04Like a text message or something like that to leave that boat alone.
18:07And I guess it kind of just boiled over to the point of that gunshot happening.
18:12That fall, a bullet ripped through his home.
18:17I cut through the dining room, the kitchen, and stopped in the living room.
18:21It just seemed so crazy and intense, not something I had experienced before.
18:24Do you feel scared knowing that there are individuals out there capable of this kind of stuff?
18:29I definitely feel uneasy.
18:30There's some reckless individuals like that that would, you know, go to those extents almost for nothing, for pride maybe.
18:38No one has been charged in that shooting.
18:47But we did track down one of the men charged with a number of lobster industry-related crimes,
18:52including allegedly threatening Jobert.
18:55If he doesn't answer the front, try the side.
18:57Yeah.
18:58Yeah.
18:59He calls himself a shady, fly-by-night lobster dealer.
19:03Fine. Have a good day.
19:05There were weeks of negotiations to get him on camera, including a few in-person visits.
19:14How do I look? Terrible?
19:17He eventually agrees to sit down with CBC Nova Scotia reporter Richard Cuthbertson.
19:22We're in a lobster mafia or...
19:24My dad don't even talk after the time. It's nuts. Like it's...
19:28We stood there. Born in every town, I guess. I don't know.
19:32This is 33-year-old Zachary Thibault. He's currently on house arrest.
19:37If the Thibault family's an organized family, they gotta change the definition.
19:40Bunch of degenerate drug addicts driving around and being assholes. That's about it.
19:44We wanted to know if he shot at Joffrey Jobert's home.
19:48Turns out Thibault was in jail at the time.
19:51Can't shoot that far. Not from Burnside anyways.
19:53Yeah, you were in jail.
19:55We know Thibault is facing charges for threatening to kill Jobert, extortion, and harassment.
20:02Thibault says he's done some bad things, but denies those allegations.
20:06You know, I went to jail this year. I was guilty on those I went to jail for.
20:09But definitely not fucking guilty on this one.
20:12But beyond his criminal past, we wanted his insight.
20:16He says for years he worked as an unlicensed broker.
20:20So this is all cash?
20:22Yeah, most of it.
20:23Yeah, so how much cash are we talking about?
20:25$50,000, $100,000.
20:26Like you've got $50,000?
20:28Yep.
20:29Like what are you carried in?
20:30Yeah.
20:31Pringle box, Pringle box, overboot, whatever.
20:36You're just driving around $50,000 in cash?
20:38Yep.
20:39He says unreported cash sales are a tax dodge and happen more often than people realize.
20:45There's 1,688 boats in District 33, 34.
20:50There's not one of them that doesn't sell lobster's cash.
20:52But you don't know for certain that those fishermen are not declaring that money on their taxes.
20:57If they report it, I'm a porn star.
20:59There's about as much likelihood as one as the other.
21:01Let me ask you this.
21:02You're unreported.
21:03All the business that you did, your unreported sales, how much of that was Indigenous?
21:07How much non-Indigenous?
21:0810% Indigenous.
21:09Yeah.
21:1010-15%.
21:11And the rest is non-Indigenous?
21:12Yep.
21:13Do you think this is all being sort of used to fuel this sort of energy against the Indigenous fisheries?
21:25Absolutely.
21:26Absolutely.
21:27Whether it be a scapegoat or just a lightning rod.
21:29Is this all lobster?
21:30Absolutely not.
21:31And all just lobster greed?
21:32I'll bet my reputation is as shitty as it may be on that.
21:37Thibault is making a point that echoes what many First Nations fishers told us.
21:42That they feel they're being unfairly blamed for risking stocks, causing crime and illegally selling.
21:49I get angry when I hear it's illegal.
21:52You know, it doesn't need to be portrayed that way, right?
21:58Shelly Denny is a fishery scientist.
22:07She also researches Mi'kmaq self-governance and the harm that comes when treaties aren't respected.
22:12If we are fishing in season with non-Mi'kmaq lobster fishers, that we are at risk.
22:19And that we can be targeted.
22:21Not every non-Mi'kmaq harvester is, you know, vile or, you know, against the fishery.
22:27But there are some out there who will very much make sure people are bothered and try as much as they can to discourage them from continuing to fish there.
22:39Some First Nations fishers at Sonierville told us they feel like they're being watched, their every move tracked.
22:48When we were there, commercial fishers parked outside the fence, sitting, watching.
22:54And I own a boat over there.
22:57This Mi'kmaq fisher tells us seeing the commercial fishers brought back visceral memories.
23:02She sees their presence as intimidation, though it's not always this obvious.
23:07Are you monitoring cameras? Are you, like, reviewing footage?
23:11Tell me about, like, just keeping a track of all this.
23:14Listen, again, the number of people that's got eyes on that place.
23:18And then with the drone footage and stuff like this, it's, there's not much that escapes us.
23:26Bernie Berry and other commercial fishers are watching, reporting what they see to DFO from their cars and from the air.
23:34People actually do some drone video. You can't deny videos.
23:39They claim these videos show lobster being illegally harvested for sale.
23:45If you can climb a fire escape or a ladder with one camera, you can get up above, outside of the gate,
23:52you know, when you're back here, you're safe and everything, and you can see the whole thing, what's going on.
23:57Dan Fleck is a retired DFO officer hired to help the commercial fishers.
24:02He says their surveillance is necessary.
24:05We needed to have video, physical proof in the eyes of the Canadian public,
24:11because it's a Canadian resource for everyone to actually see how it's being exploited, overexploited.
24:20One thing First Nations and commercial fishers agree on, that DFO enforcement isn't hitting the mark.
24:26First Nations fishers tell us they feel it's criminalizing their treaty rights.
24:31Commercial fishers we spoke to say DFO isn't cracking down hard enough.
24:37So we feel some pressure.
24:38Noel D'Entremont leads conservation and protection for the maritime region.
24:43There's a lot of opinions on this matter, whether the community members here in Clare, commercial industry, First Nations communities, everyone has their side.
24:56What we do is enforcement is enforcement.
25:01How difficult is that though for your officers when they're out there and knowing they have to make these distinctions?
25:07Yeah, so it is very challenging for our officers and we do hear that.
25:12And that's where we try and give them the clarity that they need that.
25:17Keep in mind what is authorized and what isn't.
25:22This past summer across southwest Nova Scotia, DFO seized six boats and more than 1,500 traps filling their storage cages.
25:33Coming up, the long fight for Mi'kmaq managed fisheries.
25:36The government's reaction was severe, strong, crush the treaty fishery.
25:43This is our treaty!
25:44And the battle over the message.
25:46Do you see a world in which the moderate livelihood fishery could exist outside of the commercial season?
25:51No. No I don't.
25:52And we're doing a lot of work right now, so there's like, so there's work, there's a lot of workers and stuff around too.
26:10The majority of people that are out there fishing are all following the rules.
26:14The only thing that might differ is that some people fish out of season.
26:19As a Mi'kmaq fisherman and businessman, asserting what he says are his treaty rights,
26:25Matt Cope finds himself tangled in the web of accusations and anger surrounding the lobster fishery.
26:31And, um, so they drive by here, my house and stuff.
26:36An eight-foot fence now surrounds his yard, built in part to block the prying eyes of fisheries officers,
26:42who he says surveil him from the street and with drones, ever since his arrest on fishery charges in 2020.
26:50Did somebody give them instructions to specifically target, say, certain native targets?
26:56Do you know what I mean? Like, if that's the case, then I find that's kind of, uh, stereotypical.
27:05Maybe unjust.
27:10We have no problem trying to work for it.
27:12So it's frustrating because they call us lazy when we don't work.
27:15And when we do work, we're, uh, we're taking something from them.
27:20Call me criminal, villains, and poachers, and organized crimes.
27:25Just, the list goes on and on. It's just fear-mongering.
27:29He says DFO plays into that fear.
27:33I mean, if there was an avenue where I could report my catch, and, uh, do it completely on the books,
27:39and it be regulated, then I would do that.
27:42I have no problem doing that.
27:44There's nothing black market about it at all.
27:46I mean, if we have the rights, then make it so that we can sell our catch to the buyers.
27:52Make it so that we can report our catch.
27:53Here we go.
28:04Put the Hades together.
28:06It's getting dark again, getting dark again.
28:11For the second time since we got up, it's getting dark again.
28:16They still love to go out there and fish.
28:18I mean, despite all the challenges, I mean, it's part of their core of who they are.
28:22as Mi'kmaq, we've always been a coastal people, and the fishery's always been a part of our life.
28:28And, uh, they absolutely love it out there.
28:31They absolutely love it, uh, being able to fish, look after their families,
28:36and look after their friends, and, uh, there's so much pride, uh, in being part of that.
28:42You gotta thank Don Marshall, Jr.
28:45It all started there.
28:47In 1999, Dan Christmas was the executive chairperson of the Union of Nova Scotia Indians,
28:56a prominent member of the team supporting the Marshall case.
28:59And finally, I remember that day, September 17th, 1999, clearly as Belle.
29:06I wasn't there for myself. I was there for my people.
29:11When our lawyer called us and said that we had won.
29:15And so that was, uh, probably one of the most happiest moments,
29:22because I think we knew, all of us in that room, that things will never be the same again.
29:28In that landmark ruling, the Supreme Court said Mi'kmaq could fish for a so-called moderate livelihood.
29:36But the court left it up to First Nations and the federal government
29:40to negotiate what that term meant in practice.
29:45What does moderate livelihood mean?
29:48We have no idea.
29:50We always thought that was a fiction, a legal fiction, that really had no meaning.
29:53It was almost discriminatory, almost racist to say,
29:58well, you know, everyone else can fish commercially,
30:02but when you do your fishery, you know, keep it down here.
30:06Don't make too much money off it.
30:10The Mi'kmaq were given the right to basically harvest the bounty of creation,
30:17to sustain ourselves.
30:19That's how we understood it.
30:20In the following years, DFO did help expand Mi'kmaq fisheries,
30:26transferring licenses to them from commercial fishers.
30:30But Christmas says DFO avoided the key issue,
30:33one that would follow him later in his career.
30:36They wanted us to accept cash to enable First Nations to obtain boats, licenses, gear, training.
30:46But without ever referencing the treaty or the court case.
30:52And so it enabled the communities to enter into the fishery, the commercial fishery, in a big way.
30:59There was no recognition of our treaty right, what the court called a moderate fishery.
31:05And we continued to ask the government, are you going to set up a table to talk about the treaty right?
31:13And it was just silence.
31:16So why don't you just take yourself to the end of the war and respect us?
31:20We do respect you.
31:22Listen, do we have to blockade this war for what?
31:25That silence led to clashes when First Nations fishers took to the water and DFO responded in force.
31:32Oh my God!
31:35You have a license issued by the Department of Fisheries to authorize it.
31:40Do you understand that?
31:42We're fishers on the food fishery, this is our treaty.
31:50Then as now, commercial fishers have stood in opposition, arguing the stock must be protected.
31:56This is nowhere near aggressive.
32:02The various fishers associations have since taken their message to the courts, government and media,
32:09forming the Unified Fisheries Conservation Alliance in 2020.
32:13We collected millions of dollars from our members and we have a key mandate
32:18and it's to pursue a legal resolution to the Marshall issue.
32:23Colin Sproul is the head of the alliance.
32:24I think that a lot of indigenous governments have perverted the Marshall decision
32:29into thinking that Marshall rights mean an open-ended accumulation of fishery access for coastal First Nations.
32:38Do you see a world in which the moderate livelihood fishery could exist outside of the commercial season?
32:43No. No, I don't.
32:45There's one lobster resource for Atlantic lobster and it needs to be managed under one set of management plans.
32:50Commercial fishers argue against expanding treaty fisheries by pointing to the off-season as a time when lobster can repopulate.
32:58This lobster here, ooh, lovely little eggs, they're always in some sort of reproductive season.
33:05They're not a very complicated species, you know, they're basically the insects of the sea.
33:09Shelly Denny is the Director of Aquatic Research and Stewardship at the Unamagi Institute of Natural Resources.
33:17It's healthy, it's been healthy. I mean, there's been some ups and downs like any other species that's fished commercially.
33:22The resource is fine. The lobster industry and the population seems to be doing great.
33:27And, you know, there just needs to be more room made and more accommodations made for Mi'kmaq fishers.
33:32The level at which the Mi'kmaq are harvesting, even if they're harvesting during seasons where the lobster industry isn't,
33:40the impact would be minimal.
33:42The internal DFO memo we obtained through access to information confirms much of what she's saying.
33:49Dated June 13th, it says lobster stocks across the Maritimes, including around St. Mary's Bay, are in the healthy zone.
33:57And that while the commercial catch is trending down in parts, DFO says the decrease has not been directly linked to the food, social and ceremonial fishery.
34:07Like, no matter what the government says, no matter what biologists say, we can see the effect of the incredible amount of illegal fishing.
34:18DFO's own science though is saying that overall the health of the stock is in good shape.
34:23So, is that not a good enough sign that things are okay and that there is enough for everyone?
34:27Certainly the lobster resource is in good shape, but it's important to understand why it is.
34:31Trap limits, releasing of buried females, minimum sizes, increasing the minimum size, escape vents in our traps.
34:39There are literally hundreds of management things, but the most important one of all is the seasonality of our fishery.
34:46At the end of the day though, isn't it as simple as there is only so much to go around and you and your members simply just don't want to share.
34:53You don't want to give up your share of the pie.
34:54Certainly there's enough lobsters to sustain all the communities that need to rely on it.
35:00I think those narratives have been put forward by certain Indigenous leaders because it's politically advantageous to them.
35:11Thirteen people have held the position of fisheries minister since the Marshall decision.
35:15The current minister, Joanne Thompson, sent us this statement.
35:19Let me be very clear, fishing without a license is illegal.
35:24She also says that since the Marshall decision, the government of Canada has invested over $1 billion to implement the right to communal commercial fishing licenses.
35:35That didn't completely answer our questions.
35:37So we came to Ottawa to ask the minister directly if she will resolve a quarter century of uncertainty.
35:46Hi Minister, we're the Fifth Estate.
35:48Just wondering, will you commit to solving the moderate livelihood question one for all?
35:53Minister, what do you think about DFO?
35:55Do you feel like they're criminalizing First Nations fishers by enforcing the law the way they are?
36:00The minister didn't give us much of her time, but look who did get a meeting with her.
36:07Check out this photo from June.
36:10Some familiar faces.
36:11Bernie Berry, Dan Fleck, and Colin Sproul.
36:18Coming up.
36:19Sometimes they're getting their boat seized, sometimes they're getting their car seized.
36:23Mi'kmaq fishers forced to take their fight back to court.
36:26We've been criminalized, harassed, all the way through this system that's designed to be racist towards us.
36:38October 1st.
36:44In Nova Scotia, this is Treaty Day.
36:48A chance to recognize the peace and friendship struck by the Mi'kmaq and the Crown.
36:54We are all treaty people.
36:56But also a reminder of the work remaining.
37:0026 years since the landmark decision, we still need to work on trying to get our rights recognized.
37:16The event had plenty of dignitaries, but few provincial or federal politicians showed up.
37:21It's an annual event, and every year, questions hang over the celebration.
37:31Will anything change?
37:33And is Canada listening?
37:35Indigenous people have the right to self-determination.
37:38We have the right to govern and manage our own fishery.
37:41As long as that principle is ignored, we'll never have peace in the water.
37:49Matt Cope often finds himself forced to shed his fishing gear and put on a suit.
37:56I don't even think I can count how many of these I've been through.
38:02He's faced a number of lobster fishery charges since 2020, and hopes his case will be among the last.
38:08Fundamentally, when DFO says you're breaking the law, do you see yourself as breaking the law?
38:14Absolutely not.
38:16The very law that they're claiming that I'm breaking is unconstitutional.
38:23I am the owner-editor of Gugu Guest News, independent Indigenous news in Atlantic Canada.
38:29Journalist Maureen Gugu is closely following how the fisheries fight has moved from the water to the courts.
38:39It takes up a lot of my time. There's at least about two, three cases each week.
38:45I started getting calls from fishermen, and they were saying that they were trying to do their treaty fishery in the summer,
38:52and they were getting their gear seized, not recognizing their moderate livelihood treaty rate.
38:59DFO was still enforcing the Fisheries Act and charging them with illegal fishing.
39:06So I just started tracking the court cases, getting the court information.
39:10I was really shocked to learn that there were over 50 Indigenous Fishers who were charged.
39:21It is so disheartening. You would think that after Marshall, that there would be no more court cases.
39:30But it seems that the government is so anxious to re-litigate the case that they want to get a different decision,
39:38that they'll continue to charge and charge and charge and recharge.
39:43Why not the federal government just sit down with the First Nation leaders and hammer out what a treaty fishery looks like?
39:51It's not a Mi'kmaq treaty fishery. It's a DFO commercial fishery.
39:58So until the day comes when it becomes truly a Mi'kmaq treaty fishery, then we would have arrived to where we should be.
40:06Dan Christmas saw a way forward without going to the courts.
40:11After he was made a senator, the first Mi'kmaq in the upper chamber,
40:14he led a Senate report recommending Fisheries and Oceans Canada fully recognize treaty fishing.
40:21Let Mi'kmaq create their own system, separate from the commercial structure.
40:26I can't tell you how disappointed I was when DFO just merely dismissed our recommendations as nothing.
40:35Over the generation they've been at this, for Dan Christmas...
40:39We would like to have the promise, and also Governor of Canada, to recognize that these ways of living still are extended in our community,
40:47and that they're still an important means for some of our families to get by each year.
40:51And Bernie Berry...
40:53There is individuals saying, you know, let's go fishing next week,
40:57others are saying leave your plots in the water after the season type thing.
41:00There is, certainly is frustration.
41:02It always comes back to family and livelihood.
41:06Cross your fingers, cross your toes and hope for the best.
41:08But a lot of instinct and experience go into it, doesn't it?
41:11If you go fishing for 30 or 40 or 50 years, Mother Nature usually wins a bigger percentage of the time,
41:19and you're just playing catch up.
41:21He hopes their strong ties to the past are respected when the future of the fishery is set.
41:27The industry should have a lot more input, as opposed to somebody like you said,
41:31sitting in an office in Ottawa, and just thinking how it should look.
41:35A really good friend of mine made this for me.
41:41I wear it at special stuff, like events.
41:45Sometimes I wear it to court and stuff.
41:47Especially with the ones where we're arguing the treaty.
41:51It's got the lobster on there, commemorating the 1752 treaty.
41:57Matt Cope draws strength from the treaties, because for him, they're more than history.
42:07They're personal.
42:09But right there, that's our family tree with Jean Baptiste Cope.
42:16He would be my great-great-grandfather.
42:20He's one of the most recognized signatories of the 1752 treaty that gave us the right to hunt and fish.
42:29For now, he's going to keep setting off, resolved not to be trapped on the water.
42:35I'm already almost 40 years old, so I want my children to be able to exercise their rights.
42:42I want them to be able to work hard and fish and be able to make a living out of it.
42:47I have the right to fish. I have the right to sell that fish.
42:51It's protected under the Constitution, and I'm going to fight that until the end.
42:55On this season of The Fifth Estate...
43:06That's all that stuff.
43:08You're watching the movement of funds, and you're looking for points where there's a mistake made.
43:14And there's almost always a mistake made.
43:16He went on to be a very evil genius in that way.
43:21Where are all these drugs coming from?
43:22I would love to answer that, but I can't.
43:25Because?
43:27Because I know where they're coming from.
43:29We need to talk to the police. We need to talk to the resort. Like, you know, we don't know where he is.
43:34Do you come here often?
43:36I do. I sleep in here quite often.
43:39You sleep in his bed?
43:40I do, yeah.
43:43When a mother breaks down on the phone with you and cries because her son is missing, it's not easy.
43:49You may have an idea of where these kids could be.
43:53Yep, for sure.
43:55Places burning down, windows getting smashed in, houses being shot up.
43:59There's nothing to do with conservation, it's just, it's total greed.
44:02Oh my gosh, hi.
44:04You won't leave.
44:06No. No, no, no.
44:07Do you hope that people can overcome the stigma?
44:10I'd be dead by now if I didn't think so.
44:12I said, just give me my son back. The only person that needs to be at risk here is me.
44:17We've been trying to reach you now for several weeks.
44:20I think he's hung up.
44:22I'm Steven D'Souza.
44:23I'm Ioana Rumoliotis.
44:25I'm Mark Kelly.
44:26This. This. This.
44:27This is The Fifth Estate.
44:57This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This
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