- 5 hours ago
'Dying for Sex' executive producers Nikki Boyer and Kim Rosenstock, as well as star Michelle Williams, chat with THR's Seija Rankin to talk all about the FX show during a THR Frontrunners conversation.
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00:00I wasn't holding on, which is weird because I'm really type A and super controlling about things,
00:04but I just felt like I was just letting this beautiful art happen, and I'm so,
00:09I'm just so, there's not a chill bone in my body, this by the way, I am not chill at all,
00:14like I'm freaking out all the time about this, so it was an amazing experience, yeah.
00:20Nikki, I'm going to start with you since this sort of starts with you, how, when you were doing the
00:31podcast that this series is based on, were you getting a lot of people, dare I say, sniffing
00:38about for this story, or like how much, how much interest were you sort of getting, and when did
00:44the idea of potentially taking a story into another medium start to enter your space?
00:51That's a great question because I haven't thought about that in such a long time, it was so long
00:55ago, right, when Molly and I first started recording, by the way, thanks for being here,
00:58everybody, I'm so grateful, like I love you all, and just being together is such a gift,
01:02so thank you for being here, but when we first started recording, we had tried to pitch it
01:08to some production companies as an idea for a show because we kind of thought there was
01:12something really magical, and everyone kept saying, this is such a great idea, and we'd
01:17say, great, can you give us some money, and they were like, this is such a great idea.
01:22So we then just decided to start recording ourselves, and I think a lot of people were
01:28afraid a little bit to dive into death and sex because, quite frankly, advertisers don't
01:34gravitate towards death and sex, like what are the ad sales going to be, like people were
01:38thinking that, and luckily we paired up with Wondery, which took a beautiful risk and then
01:45helped us bring our recordings into a real limited series, so it was bumpy, but the people
01:52that were interested were the people that were meant to be in it with us.
01:56I felt like every time we found a new partner along the way, there was like a spiritual understanding
02:01that we were all in this risky storytelling adventure together.
02:05And to that end, Michelle and Kim, I'd ask you, were you at all, did you have any feelings
02:11of being afraid of the death element, and how did you overcome that, or were you instantly
02:17comfortable with it, and that being why you were the right people, but kind of what was
02:21your, did that, did you have that experience at all when you heard about the story?
02:25I'll jump in first, because I, I, this podcast, this beautiful podcast, which if you like the
02:33show, you have to listen to the podcast, because it's, it's absolutely glorious, came to me
02:38through my, all, really like, friend of 20 years, Liz Merriweather, who I'd worked with
02:45on many projects, and we'd known each other forever, and she called me, she had optioned
02:50the podcast, she had met with Nikki right before the world shut down in March 2020, it was
02:54the last meeting any of them had in person, and she called me, and she said, you know, would you,
03:02I know, like, we're all in a really dark time right now, but would you want to listen to this
03:07podcast, it's about a woman dying of cancer, and I was like, I don't think that's what I need right
03:13now, I'm gonna watch, like, the cooking shows and the reality dancing shows, like, that, like,
03:17I don't think that's, like, that's not the right vibe, and she was like, but she also has a
03:21sexual awakening, and I was like, oh, okay, yeah, so give me the link, and then I listened
03:26to it, and I was like, yes, it's scary, yes, death is scary, but actually, death ended up
03:33being so much more to me than I, I now think of it in a completely different way, because
03:41of the podcast, because of this story, and so I became less scared of it, as I kept pushing
03:48deeper into it and working on this show, so that's my answer.
03:54Well, similarly, I mean, when it first, when it came to me, and this was after your guys'
04:00collaboration, and I think it was a single script, I think it was a single episode, I
04:04hadn't listened to the podcast, but I had this script, and then I had your guys' letters
04:08about, like, what the podcast meant to you, and immediately, I just thought, well, they're
04:15the same kind of weirdo as me, and I love this, like, whatever it is that they're talking
04:20about, and what this has drummed up for them, this is where I want to go next, and then I
04:25listened to the entire podcast, and was obliterated by it, and, but also mystified by it, I was
04:33like, why am I so moved by this thing, and it's, and now I kind of know what it is.
04:38Because it has, like you said, it has changed the way that I think about dying, and it has
04:44opened up a possibility that for me, like, when, not to get too, I know it's, like, before
04:48noon, but, like, bad news, it's coming for all of us, and how will I, how will I meet
04:56that, and can I open up a spaciousness to, while in the midst of all of the other things,
05:04like, I think for Molly, like, she wasn't just going to be a diagnosis and a cancer
05:08patient, and she had her mind made up that she was going to continue to be all of the
05:13Molly that she could be, and what an incredible challenge to give to ourselves.
05:18I don't know that I can meet it, but I think about it now.
05:23It's funny, I had actually scribbled down to myself that I was going to end on asking
05:27everybody how you thought about death now, so it's better that we got to it now, because
05:31we'll end on something a little bit lighter, perhaps, but something that stuck out to me
05:36when you said that they had the letters that they sent to you with the script about what
05:39it meant, is that to you something that's normal when people send you scripts or ideas
05:45or pitches, or was that something unique to Kim and Liz's process with it?
05:53You know, sometimes you'll get letters about what inspired the person to make this the next
05:59piece of work in their life, and really, I think it's about, like, what is the deeper
06:03meaning behind this thing?
06:05It's not just a thing.
06:06It's trying to see how far it can go and how much it can live inside people's hearts and
06:12minds and if it can cause any vibrational shift for an audience member, and when I read what
06:19they were thinking about and what it meant to them, I was like, oh, yeah, that's my next
06:22evolution.
06:23Like, that's where I would like to go there, and so, like, just drag me along, and I want
06:28that, I want that ride.
06:30We were writing, like, an embarrassing love letter to Michelle, and we were like, oh,
06:35no.
06:35What did it say?
06:36It was, I still have it in my email, and we had a couple drafts, and, like, we were
06:40like, should we say that?
06:41Because it's Michelle Williams.
06:42Like, we have to sort of seem chill and cool, but we want to talk to her so badly, and, you
06:50know, we just, I remember we were like, we're just going to put it all out there, and
06:56we talked about having sex and farting at the same time.
07:00And then the miracle was that it's kind of like what Nikki was saying, Michelle came
07:05on the Zoom, and instantly it was like, oh, we found another one.
07:08And, okay, like, another person that, like, just inherently understands this and, like,
07:14get, and, like, is, is, like, is already in it without ever having talked about it together.
07:21Just, it's like what you were saying.
07:24The show kind of collected its people as we went, as we went along.
07:28And I, I, my, like, woo-woo part of me is like, I do feel like that's a little bit like
07:33Molly, like, her, her blessing and presence on this, I know, but, like, you could feel
07:39it, like, um, so.
07:41Also, an interesting lesson, too, that maybe we don't ever have to be chill and cool, that
07:46it's, it's actually, right?
07:48We, we think that, and then what people connect to is just, like, putting yourself out there
07:53like that.
07:54It was like, how on earth would we ever get Michelle?
07:57This was like a, we did not think this was going to happen.
08:00And, like, you know, it was like, yeah, sure, Meryl Streep will be in this show.
08:04Like, it, like, so, like, we were like, we have to shoot our shot.
08:07Like, we have to do everything we, we can, um, to, to get her on just one Zoom if we could
08:12just talk to her.
08:13Um, so, yeah, that was, don't be, don't be chill and cool was less than cool.
08:18Um, Nikki, what was the experience like of both watching, we'll talk about Jenny Slate a
08:25little bit, watching someone embody a version of you versus watching Michelle embody a version,
08:31kind of bring back your friend if, if that's what it felt like.
08:35Um, like, kind of, how did those two things compare to each other?
08:38It, it's, I don't know if I've ever told you this, but there was a moment, um, after
08:45shooting where I said to my husband, like, I'm having some interesting feelings.
08:50Like, I really miss Michelle, like, I miss her, like, I was so emotional about it.
08:56And he said, well, that's because she's your version of Molly now.
09:00So I was having these deep, griefy feelings about not being able to see her each day on
09:05set and touch her and look at her face.
09:07And I realized it was that what was happening was, was that.
09:10So you're stuck with me now, girl.
09:13Forever.
09:14Right?
09:14So I just, um, I, I think watching this version, um, of dying for sex with Jenny and Michelle
09:23felt like just selfishly and privately, it felt like a new layer of love and a new layer
09:30of grief and a new layer of expression.
09:33And I was so proud of it.
09:35And I was so deeply moved by how hard and fast they dove into the characters.
09:41So I just very much was, was grateful for that.
09:44And there was no judgment.
09:47I wasn't holding on to, well, this was true.
09:49And this wasn't, I was so grateful for the colors and the beautiful strokes that Kim and
09:54Liz painted with and the way that she beautifully acted Molly.
09:57And there was there, I wasn't holding on, which is weird because I'm really type A and super
10:00controlling about things, but I just felt like I was just letting this beautiful art happen.
10:05And I'm so, I just, I'm just so, there's not a chill bone in my body.
10:10This, by the way, I am not chill at all.
10:12Like I'm freaking out all the time about this.
10:15So I, it was an amazing experience.
10:18Yeah.
10:18Do you mind if I ask you, um, what your purse is like?
10:22Is your bag, do you have a capital B bag?
10:24Okay.
10:25I do not have a big ass bag filled with a bunch of stuff, but my husband was like, have
10:30you seen the trunk of your car?
10:33And have you seen the desktop of your computer?
10:35And I was like, what are you, oh my God, it's such a mess.
10:38Like my desktop is, nothing's filed right.
10:41Nothing has a name.
10:42It's like QQRP.BY.
10:44And he's what, what's that?
10:45I'm like, I don't know.
10:45It's just a document.
10:47Open it up if you want to see what it is.
10:49And it's like, this file can't be opened.
10:50And so Jenny's purse is my computer in my trunk.
10:55Things on the way to Goodwill.
10:56So there are some, so, so, a lot of similarities between the two.
11:00But I do hate Shakespeare, which I thought was hilarious that, um, I was in Shakespeare.
11:05You hate Shakespeare?
11:05I hate Shakespeare.
11:07Isn't that so funny?
11:08So I actually, I mean, I don't hate it.
11:10I just wouldn't go buy a ticket to see it unless you're in, unless I'm in London, right?
11:15Unless I'm in London.
11:16But, um, oh my gosh.
11:18Sorry.
11:19I need to show that.
11:19Now I think they're getting spicy.
11:21But I did think it was amazing that they made Jenny, Jenny, this Shakespeare loving actress.
11:25And I was like, that's perfect.
11:26I loved, I loved the differences so much, almost as much as the similarities, actually.
11:31For some reason, when we, we shifted the show, at first it was set in L.A.
11:34And then we shifted it to New York, um, once we knew that Michelle was going to be in it.
11:38And it was, for some reason, we were like, well, now Nikki has to do Shakespeare.
11:42Because that's what actors in New York do.
11:45And that is not true at all.
11:47But, like, it felt like, it felt, it felt right.
11:50But Nikki is, like, just to say, like, Liz and I had her trust and, like, and her generosity.
11:57The, the, the way that Nikki was with this story, which is so deeply personal and real
12:04for her, and still grief is coursing through her.
12:07Like, the way that she would just get on the phone with us at any moment and mine pain, like, painful experiences from her life
12:17for, just to give us details for scenes and, like, anything we needed.
12:21And at the same time, totally giving us the freedom to make this show its own thing.
12:26Um, and to build, build out these characters to create, to create new stories and not, they, it was not a biopic, you know.
12:34And, and we always, the fact that we had Nikki is what allowed us to do that.
12:38Because not everyone would have, would have been this.
12:42It's very rare to have this kind of generosity and collaboration from, uh, someone who, like, has already made it
12:50and knows what it is and literally lived it.
12:52Like, she could have been fact-checking us the whole way through.
12:55And, and never, never, not even, not even once.
12:58It was beautiful.
12:59The only time is, I think I made your boyfriend's name your brother's name.
13:03And I was like, that's creepy.
13:04You were like, can you change that name?
13:06And I was like, yeah, yeah, no problem.
13:07Now you get it, understood.
13:09Michelle, how would you describe the vibe on set?
13:12I'm curious about kind of the mixture of, like, joy and sadness and heaviness and laughter that was in the show
13:18and how that kind of, in those heavier scenes, what it was like
13:23and just kind of how you guys all moved through the emotions of what you were playing.
13:29Well, I think underlying everything when you are, well, underlying everything are two things on this.
13:37I think really what you know that what you're there to do is build a bonfire and around the love that these two women shared
13:45and to let everybody else experience that warmth.
13:48So, like, that's a guiding principle.
13:50And the other guiding principle is we feel so honored to go to work and to have this material to work with.
14:01So, underneath the things that, yes, on the day-to-day level they might feel like, oh, I feel vulnerable or I feel sad
14:08or I feel emotional or I feel whatever feelings I'm having.
14:11But the real base layer of that is expressing the friendship between these two women
14:19and the gratitude to have this material.
14:23So, that is really, like, what suffuses and tempers the emotionality of it.
14:29Something that really struck me when you mentioned that you had written the show to be in L.A.
14:33and then Michelle came on board and so you changed it to New York.
14:37And is that the kind of, because it also is really striking to me that this show is made by so many women.
14:43And I assume that you did that because your family, your home life needed you to be in New York.
14:48And is that, that probably came to you, like, oh, duh, of course we'll do that.
14:52But, like, I don't know, that still feels like such a, something that wouldn't necessarily always be the answer
14:58or be easy to do or be what you're offered in a job.
15:02But correct me if I'm wrong, if that's.
15:05Yeah, I think it was a lot of moms making this show.
15:09And actually a lot of moms of daughters, which I think was a big, really interesting thing.
15:14Because a lot of the show is about, like, this woman who is trying to heal herself
15:19and put herself back together with her child self, who was the last time she inhabited her body
15:25and felt joy and felt confidence and felt, like, truly alive.
15:28So we all have these, like, little girls running around.
15:32And, you know, I think it's, I will just say it's amazing to make shows with fellow moms.
15:38And, like, there are things that you normally would have to ask for that you don't feel at all weird asking for.
15:44And I think Michelle set such a beautiful tone in that regard as number one on the call sheet,
15:52an EP, the star of the show, also a really just caring, giving person
15:58who's constantly aware of the parents in the process and what they need.
16:03And, yes, we moved the show to New York because of what Michelle's family needed.
16:08And then along the way, we took care of everybody else's families.
16:12Like, it was, but it starts from the top.
16:15And, you know, I think it's such a gift.
16:16I was able to bring my daughter to set.
16:20And because our producer, who's also a mom, found a way for me to have a babysitter there the whole time.
16:26Our director, Shannon, her daughter was also there with a babysitter.
16:29These girls were on set.
16:31But, like, this doesn't normally happen.
16:33This has to happen if this only happens when, like, you know, you have the right people involved.
16:37And I credit Michelle with she set up a beautiful playroom.
16:41We made an Ikea room.
16:44One day I went up there and every day it said, well, it was, like, the most beautiful preschool.
16:49Every day it said, welcome to whichever children happened to be there.
16:52Their names were on the board.
16:53I don't know who figured that out.
16:54But, like, Michelle just made that happen.
16:56And so, again, she's incredible in the ways that we all know, but, like, as an actor, but just as a human being and as the leader of this show, like, of this cast.
17:07Like, I mean, an incredible person.
17:10Just a wonderful human.
17:11Sorry.
17:13Yeah.
17:16And when one person does that, it allows the next person to do it.
17:19You have to see someone doing that to know that you can do that and what you can ask for.
17:24Yeah.
17:24Michelle, and, of course, if there's anything you want to react to in Kim's.
17:28But I wanted to know, too, like, did you see people doing that when you were younger in your career?
17:33Like, kind of what are you modeling yourself as, as number one on the call sheet, as a producer, as you become powerful enough to make these changes?
17:43I remember when I was making this movie, The Great and Powerful Oz, and Sam Raimi was the director.
17:50And every time my daughter would come to set, he would say, stop, stop, stop.
17:54Everyone here is our most special and honored visitor.
17:59And then he had her sit next to him.
18:02She had her own chair.
18:03And it was right at his monitor, like, at the director's monitor.
18:06And she would watch takes with him and talk to him about them.
18:12And then one time he told me this story that, like, one time he was getting, like, sort of upset and frustrated with something.
18:17And he felt this little tiny hand reach out and touch his arm.
18:22And he was like, oh, she really, I really needed her there in that moment.
18:26And there she was.
18:28So I'd had, like, little examples of that, like, where, and, you know, that was an amazing movie to be on, too.
18:32Because, like, there was a costume department.
18:33And they made her, like, a skirt that matched mine and, like, a tiara that matched mine.
18:37So I'd seen a little, like, things like that.
18:40And then I've, um, my husband makes, my husband and I made this show, Fosse-Verdon, together.
18:50And I saw how he opened up space to allow people to do their best work.
18:54Um, a really safe, exuberant, harmonious environment full of, full of yes.
19:02And, um, and when, when I, when, when we started on this job and I realized, oh, my God, I'm number one on the call sheet?
19:13Oh, okay, it's up to me.
19:16Oh, okay.
19:16Okay, take a deep breath, grow up, and, um, and, and, and make the thing, try, be a part of making the thing the way that you want it to be.
19:29And find that extra energy that isn't just going straight into your work.
19:34Find that extra energy to spread about the workplace and just, and think, what would be good, what would be good, what would be, and then, and then ask, and then be a part of making the yes happen.
19:44Um, so it was really, it was very, it was really exciting for me, because it was a new experience for me, and I got, and, um, and, and also, you know, when you look around and you see so many women, you're like, okay, we have got to, if they're going to give us this opportunity, and it's a show about women, directed, produced, written, starring, um, maybe we, we can rewrite some of these roles here.
20:10Woo!
20:10Woo!
20:11Woo!
20:11Woo!
20:11Woo!
20:12Woo!
20:12Woo!
20:13Woo!
20:13Woo!
20:14Woo!
20:14Woo!
20:15To that, and I do remember Jenny saying, I believe the direct quote was, it seemed like there was also always an ice cream truck there.
20:22And I, we know food is central.
20:25Woo!
20:25Woo!
20:26We know what makes us happy, and it's honestly having something nice to eat to look forward to.
20:32Well, so much of this show is about taking care of people, and I think that, again, just filtered into the whole process.
20:40How can we keep taking care of, of each other?
20:44Also, the show goes to a lot of dark, really hard, really painful, really sad places, and,
20:51um, and so how do you keep joy in, in the air?
20:56Like, how do we, how do you get through the day?
20:58You know, Liz and I read all of these books, um, about sexual trauma, and about the people that work, uh, the, do the hard work of, like, the doctors that work with patients, and, like, hear these horrible things, and it's like, how do they get through at the end of the day?
21:13Those doctors would, and it's always, like, it comes back to connection, friends and family laughing, joy, finding those moments at the end of their days, and, like, I think we needed to take care.
21:24We knew, everyone knew, like, that we needed to keep that in mind throughout the process, because it's, in order to ask people to go to these really dark, sit in very painful areas, like, uh, thematically and emotionally, especially, you know, Michelle and Jenny, who were there, literally in almost every scene.
21:44So, um, but often, they were the source of the ice cream trucks, like, so it was, like, again, they're doing everything.
21:51It was amazing.
21:51I don't know where these ice cream trucks are going.
21:52Maybe Jenny didn't get the ice cream truck, but she did other things.
21:56Maybe, I think Michelle got, you definitely got a lot of, you got a lot of trucks.
22:01There were definitely tacos, pizzas from Michelle, like, very important.
22:05Um, I wanted to ask you, too, Nikki.
22:08Friday.
22:09Friday.
22:09As Michelle and Kim talked a little bit about, um, how the show made them think about dying differently, I'm wondering if, for you, the experience, the unique experience of making this show, and then maybe even watching the episodes back, made you think about anything differently that you hadn't already in this, what I imagine has been a long process of being immersed in this topic and material.
22:34That's, it's, it gave me more, um, depth to Molly.
22:40Like, I got, like, when you're going through grief and you're in the hospital, you're kind of on autopilot a little bit.
22:44You're just kind of one foot in front of the other and doing what you need to do, and in this process of watching the podcast be released, watching the show be shot, getting in dailies and watching the show, each one gave me a different level of new grief.
22:59Like, I, I just knew when there was a first, like, I'm getting the first script, I'm getting the first day, I get to watch the first, um, raw cut of episode one.
23:08There was a new level of grief, and one thing that I've learned is that the grief is just, like, love just coming out, right?
23:18It's just, uh, it's lost, but it's really an expression of love, so I just felt so happy and grateful to get new layers of grief, because when people pass, we kind of just keep going on without them, and we have a holiday or a moment or a picture.
23:35But I keep getting these new ripples of grief and love of Molly, and I've never experienced that, I've never loved someone so deeply, I've never fallen in love with someone more after they've been gone.
23:49Like, this is a very unique experience that I've gotten to do, and I, that is not lost on me, so I'm just really forced to be super present now, I feel like, in moments.
23:58Like, I'm so taking you in, in this moment, like, I will not forget this, right?
24:03Like, I won't forget this moment.
24:05And so it causes me to kind of, shoop, every time something cool is happening, and I stop, and I soak it in, and I look, and I take little snapshots.
24:15So it's enhanced my life deeply, yeah.
24:19You're going to get such good snapshots when you go to the big awards show.
24:24I'm going to end this on asking about, selfishly, my favorite scene.
24:28Um, from the series, which is, and I won't really spoil it if there's anyone who hasn't seen to the end, but there's a moment where you dance to the song Heart and Soul.
24:38Um, and I, and I instantly, like, added it onto my Spotify, and it absolutely will be showing up in my Rept at the end of the year.
24:47But I just wanted to ask about, I don't know, there's something about, like, dancing scenes, how you picked that song, just, like, what your memories are of this kind of, yeah.
24:57Like, just getting to, like, be so free on screen and dance to this, like, incredible 80s, I think it's 80s, song.
25:04Well, it's funny, you know, so much of this show feels like it's about the way that we grew up in the 80s.
25:10And so we were, I think it was Shannon had said, oh, we're looking for a song for the rally.
25:20Remember the moment.
25:21And I said, it's Heart and Soul, T-Pow.
25:23Michelle literally was there doing another scene and somehow had her phone out and was like, play.
25:28It's my jam, okay?
25:29That's, that's, that's my song.
25:32That's my, like, Michelle chose that song.
25:33It's me driving in the minivan, just, like, jamming out with Heart and Soul.
25:37So the dance, it came easily.
25:38It's like something you're, like, I always, I'm actually always doing this.
25:41That's my anthem, yes.
25:42So we'll just capture it on camera this time.
25:44Perfect.
25:44Well, thank you guys so much for chatting and for making this show and for being so generous with your thoughts on it.
25:50I'm sure everybody appreciates it.
25:52So thank you for joining us, everybody.
25:54Thank you for being here.
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