- 2 days ago
'Kokuho' producer Chieko Murata and production designer Yohei Taneda chat with THR's David Canfield to talk all about Lee Sang-il's nearly-three-hour-long epic, which focuses on the life of a fictional kabuki actor, during a THR Frontrunners conversation.
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00:00When I was developing the project with the directors and the writer, I thought that there probably will be around 90% of the Japanese population who will die without seeing Kabuki because it's just a luxury of life.
00:14So if we make a movie about it and if you can see it in $10, people will maybe want to come and see it.
00:20A long journey to the screen for this one, if I'm correct.
00:30So whoever wants to start, can you tell us a little bit about the origin story of how this movie started?
00:36I believe it's over a decade in the making.
00:39Hello, thank you for coming today.
00:41I'm Chieko Murata, the producer of the film.
00:43So over 10 years ago, director Lee had actually wanted to create a Kabuki film.
00:54And some time had passed and the novelist, Shuichi Yoshida, had written a novel by the same name, Kokuhou.
01:03And so that's where things started to fall into place.
01:06So then production started approximately about four years ago, starting with the script.
01:15But even a little bit before that, the director had already asked Mr. Taiohei Taneda to be the production designer.
01:23So is it typical for you to be brought into a film that early as a production designer?
01:29Yes, if I have a relationship with a director, yes, they will call me on pretty much.
01:36early on.
01:37If it's a first-time director, it's usually not so much time.
01:45And actually, the first film I worked with, with director Lee, was 22 years ago.
01:50So we've had quite a relationship.
01:52With this film, I think everyone watching can see this incredible scope.
01:56The amount of detail that goes into it is pretty awe-inspiring.
01:59So in those initial conversations on how you're going to mount the movie,
02:03what were some of the big-picture talking points of how you were going to be able to make this,
02:08just, you know, in terms of budget and things like that?
02:11So the novel that Shuichi Yoshida had written was very, very interesting.
02:20It was really good.
02:21And so when I first sat down with the director, the conversation started with,
02:27it's going to have to be at least three hours.
02:30Like, that can't be helped.
02:33But we did discuss about, let's try making it a little less than three hours.
02:41And of course, one of the key points is to really correctly and vividly capture the kubiki dance.
02:53And that really had to be portrayed correctly.
02:56And I myself really love, I'm a fan of Indian Bollywood movies.
03:01So I knew that if there was dancing segments weaved in within the story,
03:06that three hours wouldn't be so bad.
03:08And so the director definitely wanted to have this movie be entertaining.
03:17There could have been a tendency to, let's say, lean towards more art house, beautiful film,
03:23but there was an intention to have it being entertaining.
03:28So that's where Mr. Taneida comes in to capture the beauty.
03:32And so, you know, compared to, let's say, a Hollywood budgeted film,
03:36you know, this was shot in Japan,
03:37but we were very intentional to make sure we had the budget,
03:40the time, and the money to do this as well as we wanted to do it.
03:45So, Taneida-san, can you talk a little bit about your relationship to kubiki,
03:52maybe, as a starting point, just for your way into this, you know, epic world?
03:56Kabuki is something, yes, I've been watching for almost my life.
04:06And actually, over 10 years ago, there was a possibility for me to have worked on a kubiki film.
04:11It didn't happen then, but fast forward to now, everything kind of clicked in place,
04:16and I was able to help production design a kabuki film.
04:21What was most exciting to you about getting to design a kabuki film?
04:29Of course, it was challenging to create a kabuki stage.
04:36And just for context for everyone, kabuki and that stage was born in the Edo period,
04:42so over 300 years ago.
04:43So, to be able to recreate that was a great challenge.
04:48It's interesting to me that there really haven't been a lot of films centered on kabuki.
04:51Can you just talk a little bit about that, just in terms of getting this film made,
04:55why it hasn't been very common in Japanese film?
05:02Just to raise what has been created in the past.
05:05So, currently, Shochiku is a production company that owns a copyright to kabuki.
05:10And so, there's one way how that is produced, kabuki is produced in Japan,
05:15but also each house, each family, also passes down, as you probably learned from the film,
05:22they pass down their specific stories.
05:25So, that's how kabuki exists today.
05:28So, Shochiku has, in the past, created dramas.
05:32And, for example, director Mizoguchi has created kabuki films in the past.
05:37So, fast forward to now,
05:42director Lee wanted to create a kabuki film based on the Onnadata,
05:47which is the male actor portraying a female.
05:51And so, we did actually go to Shochiku, and we did meet with them.
05:55However, because our story was based on the novel,
05:58and not a different original story,
06:01they weren't that inclined to participate.
06:05So, we actually then approached the Nakamura family,
06:08who is a very...
06:10Nakamura Ganjiro.
06:10Oh, Kanjiro.
06:11Nakamura Ganjiro is one of the big kabuki actors now,
06:16and to actually get permission to work with his family, that lineage.
06:20Because in the kabuki world, as you can tell,
06:23it's very, very old,
06:24and you need some sort of insider connection
06:26in order to get the proper permissions.
06:28So, we ended up working with Nakamura Ganjiro's family in that lineage.
06:34Can you talk a little bit about the casting of the film?
06:37I mean, you have to have multiple actors playing these roles in a couple cases.
06:42It's a huge, again, ensemble.
06:44But really, these two boys and then men anchor the film in such a beautiful way.
06:52What did you think about the actors?
06:53I mean, we're really proud of them, for sure.
07:02So, Director Lee, from the very beginning,
07:05said that Ryō Yoshizawa,
07:08who is the actor portraying Kikuo,
07:11because the director felt like Mr. Yoshizawa's portrayal
07:16really reflected the Kikuo of the original novel.
07:19So, that was our initial conversation that I had with the director,
07:23and that's where everything started moving casting-wise.
07:26So, not only is Kikuo a very challenging role to portray,
07:35Shunsuke, the adopted brother, best friend, and rival,
07:40that was also a very difficult role to cast.
07:44So, once Ryō Yoshizawa said yes,
07:46we had to move on to Shunsuke,
07:48and, so myself and the other producer, Matsuda-san,
07:52and the director, we all sat down.
07:54And, currently, Ryusei Yokohama,
07:56who portrays Shunsuke,
07:58is quite the star in Japan.
08:00So, after some discussion with the director and the producers,
08:03we ended up landing on him.
08:07Because the film spans so much time,
08:11I'm curious if there was anything in the production design
08:13that you wanted to convey,
08:15just in terms of the evolution of Japan,
08:17we start in the 1960s,
08:20and maybe Kabuki's relationship to Japan
08:22as it evolves through time.
08:27So, we're talking 1965 to 2015
08:30is what we're tracking with Kikuo's life.
08:34And, throughout those years,
08:36we see the Kabuki stage.
08:38And, as I mentioned before,
08:40that Kabuki stage has not changed
08:41for the last over 300 years.
08:43So, for me, I saw it as
08:46how does the Edo era reflect
08:48at that certain decade?
08:50So, how does that Edo era stage
08:53look like in the 60s,
08:55then the 70s?
08:56And then, when we have the,
08:58when Kikuo has his final stage appearance, too,
09:01in the 21st century,
09:03what does that stage,
09:05down to the details, look like?
09:07So, for me, it was a relationship
09:09between that 300-year-old Edo stage
09:12and whatever decade we were looking at.
09:14So, that was kind of a time collaboration
09:16that I approached it with.
09:19Are there any details you can share,
09:21like specifics,
09:21that indicate that passage of time for you
09:24in the design?
09:25So, an example would be the main house,
09:36the Ogaki family house,
09:38which is the Kabuki family we follow.
09:41So, if you look at the little details
09:44in the living room,
09:45you might see different electronics.
09:47Every time we go back into that home
09:49throughout the ages,
09:51you'll see the electronics start being updated.
09:53Maybe some of the dishware
09:54and some of those details will be updated.
09:58And then, you know, the father dies
09:59and there's more sense of time.
10:02But, what I also added to contrast
10:05is that the rehearsal space,
10:07you know, in that stage,
10:09any of those,
10:09I wanted to have a contrast
10:11that the legacy arts don't change
10:14despite how much time has changed.
10:16So, there's a consistency in those spaces.
10:20As we've been talking about,
10:21Kabuki has these very fixed traditions
10:23and a certain staticness.
10:26But, the heart of the movie
10:28is this relationship
10:29between these two men.
10:31And through that,
10:32you explore these ideas of bloodline
10:34and things like that
10:35that are so core to Kabuki.
10:38Can you talk a little bit about
10:39how that became the anchor of the movie
10:42and what you wanted to explore
10:43through the relationship
10:44between the two of them?
10:45So, it was actually decided
10:51pretty early on.
10:53The novel actually has many more characters
10:55and it's quite complicated
10:56compared to a film,
10:59as many novels are.
11:00So, when we sat down
11:02to create the structure of this movie,
11:05we were very intentional
11:08that, you know,
11:09we would have Kiko's through line
11:11and then we have Shunsuke
11:12coming in as the rival
11:13and to have that discussion
11:16be that, you know,
11:17talent versus blood
11:18and we grow up
11:19in those circumstances.
11:21So, that was a very intentional
11:22some of the core elements
11:24that we decided,
11:25you know,
11:26very, very early on.
11:27And, even if you are a non-artist,
11:35talent comes in many different
11:37shapes and forms.
11:39So, we felt that,
11:41you know,
11:42whether you're a talent,
11:42you're born with that talent
11:44or it's, let's say,
11:45given to you,
11:46there's going to be
11:47some sort of loss
11:48along the way
11:48and we thought that,
11:50we really felt that
11:50was a universal theme.
11:52So, the director
11:53and the screenwriter
11:54and ourselves
11:55were very intentional
11:57with following that.
11:59Now, Teneda-san,
12:00you have worked on
12:01shorter movies
12:03made for more money,
12:04let's say,
12:05than this one.
12:06This is, you know,
12:06for what you had,
12:08the resources you had,
12:08it's an incredible
12:09amount of design.
12:11Where did you have
12:12to get creative?
12:13Where did you feel
12:14the challenges,
12:14maybe, of the budget
12:15versus the scope
12:16of the movie?
12:19That's a really hard question.
12:22Yes, it was very challenging
12:30and I would probably say
12:33we did focus
12:34on the latter half
12:35of the story
12:37and when Kiko and them
12:40are in Tokyo,
12:41they are at a theater
12:42called Hinomoto Zaku.
12:45That's a Hinomoto Theater
12:46and so the story
12:48of that theater
12:48is actually,
12:49it starts as a small theater
12:50and it gets bigger
12:51and bigger
12:51and so we see that
12:53more in the latter half
12:54of the film
12:55and in Japan
12:57you cannot rent
12:58a kabuki theater
12:59and,
13:00but what was more important
13:01was to create a space
13:02where the actors
13:03could fully engage
13:06in the space,
13:07fully perform,
13:07fully dance
13:08and so that definitely
13:10had to be a set
13:11so we already
13:12knew that
13:13from the very beginning.
13:20So,
13:21we literally recreated
13:23an entire
13:24kabuki theater
13:25not just from what
13:26you can see
13:26from the audience side.
13:27We are talking
13:28down to the seats
13:30that all the background
13:30were sitting in,
13:31the runway,
13:32underneath the stage
13:34where they're running
13:35through that maze
13:36and also backstage,
13:38all of that
13:39was actually practically,
13:42we just recreated
13:43a kabuki theater.
13:45Amazing.
13:46Even the elevator.
13:48Yeah.
13:50So we need to dig
13:51a hole in the studio
13:53in Kyoto.
13:53And also big curtain
13:55and dope.
13:59Yeah.
14:00And how long
14:00did the actors train for?
14:02A year and a half.
14:03It's amazing.
14:06And there are
14:07literally
14:08the biggest actors
14:09in Japan
14:10but they
14:12sustain some of the work
14:14and focus on
14:15training so hard
14:17that sometimes
14:18they just go
14:19to the training
14:20four days a week
14:21and they are wearing
14:22yukata,
14:23the Japanese kimono
14:24at home
14:25to be able to
14:26be in a feel
14:27of the actor,
14:28like the character.
14:29I'll close
14:31by maybe asking
14:32both of you
14:32about the impact
14:34of this film.
14:34For those who don't know,
14:35this film is
14:36a phenomenon in Japan.
14:37It's made
14:38about $100 million.
14:40It is resonating
14:41on a really profound level.
14:42So why do you think
14:43that is?
14:44Why has this movie
14:45landed in such
14:45a powerful way?
14:47So first,
14:50I would say
14:51that probably
14:52in the last 50 years,
14:53Japan has not seen
14:54a film
14:55where kabuki
14:56is the main focus.
14:57At the same time
15:02as the absence
15:03of kabuki films,
15:04it's really
15:05the youth.
15:06As young people,
15:08it would be
15:08kind of equivalent
15:09to how familiar
15:10are we with opera
15:11if you're in your
15:1220s or 30s.
15:13And kabuki now,
15:15you have to pay
15:16a little bit more money
15:17to actually go see.
15:19But we actually
15:20put this,
15:21you know,
15:21it's in a movie theater
15:22now and it's so much
15:23more accessible.
15:24And on top of that,
15:25we were focusing
15:26on the onnagata.
15:27The male actor
15:28portraying female.
15:29And in the film,
15:31they're able to learn
15:32just how much work.
15:33It's not easy.
15:35That, you know,
15:35that it takes.
15:36And of course,
15:37our two lead actors
15:38are quite the draw
15:39for the young folks too.
15:42So I think it's,
15:43we haven't seen
15:43a kabuki film
15:44in a while.
15:45And also,
15:46the younger audience
15:47is exposed to something
15:48they only knew
15:49a little bit.
15:50And it's really
15:50opened up their world.
15:51So I think those
15:52two things
15:53are a big impact.
15:54Anything to add?
15:55I think in terms
15:57of the kabuki,
15:58I'll say it in English,
15:59but kabuki aspect,
16:02yes.
16:03Kabuki,
16:04if you wanted
16:04to see kabuki
16:05in Japan,
16:06you need to go
16:06to a certain big city,
16:08either Tokyo,
16:09Kyoto, Osaka,
16:10or Fukuoka,
16:11or Nagoya.
16:11and you need
16:12to pay more
16:12than a hundred
16:13US dollar
16:14to see it.
16:15So I,
16:17when I was developing
16:18the project
16:19with the directors
16:19and the writer,
16:20I thought that
16:22the puberi will be
16:23around 90%
16:25of the Japanese
16:26population
16:26who will die
16:27without seeing kabuki
16:28because it's just
16:30the luxury of life.
16:31So,
16:32but we learned
16:33about kabuki
16:33in school.
16:35So if we make
16:36a movie about it
16:37and if you can see
16:38it in $10,
16:39people will maybe
16:39want to come
16:40and see it.
16:42And I think
16:43another reason
16:44is that
16:45because it's
16:46so cinematic
16:47and I hear
16:49a lot of people
16:50like the movie
16:51opened okay
16:52in Japan
16:53but not great
16:54for the first weekend.
16:56But later on,
16:57it became more
16:58and more
16:58thanks to
16:59the word of mouse
17:00and what I heard
17:01the most is
17:02it's worth the money.
17:04If you are able
17:06to see this
17:07with $10 US dollar,
17:09it's cheap.
17:09so people
17:10started to
17:11like that
17:12was a really
17:13great compliment
17:13but also
17:14as a cinematic
17:17experience,
17:18it's something
17:19that we wanted
17:20to bring
17:21like the reason
17:21to go to see
17:22in the movie theater
17:23instead of watching
17:24on the screen
17:26in the house
17:27or on the streaming.
17:29So I think
17:29that's another reason
17:30why it became
17:31successful.
17:32I was going to say
17:33it helps that you
17:34made a pretty
17:34great movie.
17:35Thank you all
17:37so much
17:37for coming out
17:38tonight.
17:41You
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