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00:00Have you ever been to Missouri before, Carrie?
00:21I haven't.
00:22Everybody here is very friendly, kind of like where you're from.
00:25Not as cold.
00:26I was going to say the nice thing is there's no snow here yet.
00:28Well, I'm glad you're here.
00:30Terry Hook is a good friend of mine now and a great cop back home in Wisconsin.
00:35I think the first shot goes like right here and then he slumps over like that and now
00:39he hits him again.
00:40And I'm glad she could come and join me here in the Ozarks to look into the 1988 murder
00:45of Ronna Bremer.
00:47Ronna grew up in Iowa and she met her husband in Iowa and they moved to Missouri because
00:52his family's from here.
00:54She'd only been here six months.
00:55Right.
00:56She's in a new state with all new family members because they're all kin to him and
01:01she's here all alone.
01:02It just felt kind of sad.
01:04And the fact that she had young children and was pregnant.
01:07It was very sad.
01:09It was three days before Christmas when Ronna, who was seven months pregnant at the time,
01:14went missing.
01:15According to her husband, she disappeared without a trace in the middle of the night.
01:19Two years later, Ronna's skull was discovered by hikers.
01:24This is our, I think, fourth case in Missouri and in every single case, we had to deal with
01:30the caves that they have here.
01:31Supposedly, there's some kind of cavern that she was thrown into, but it's very close to
01:37one of our suspects' property, which is interesting.
01:40This case is really complex as there's three suspects involved.
01:43Ronna's husband, Joel, and his two brother-in-laws.
01:47And the stories that they tell from that night are strange.
01:50Are they lying?
01:51Are they trying to cover for themselves?
01:52Or are they covering for each other?
01:54We have to figure out one or two actually committed the murder and a second one or a third one
02:00helped hide the body.
02:02Every single suspect's family is related to everybody else.
02:06And all the witnesses or children or wives of everybody.
02:09That is going to be difficult.
02:11It's a nice way to put it, Terry.
02:13Somebody needs to get justice for her.
02:20Hi, Sheriff.
02:22I'm Kelly Seager.
02:22Nice to meet you.
02:23Good to meet you.
02:23Kevin Turpin.
02:24Nice to meet you.
02:25Saw your name in the file.
02:26Kelly Winston-Carlton.
02:27Nice to meet you.
02:27Good to meet you.
02:28We're excited to be here, Sheriff.
02:29We're glad that you're here.
02:31It's been looked at for a long time, and there's a lot of good investigation that's been done over
02:34the years.
02:35It just needs a little push.
02:36Y'all all ready?
02:37Y'all studied up on it already, though?
02:39Because you know everything.
02:40You worked it.
02:40I have worked it.
02:41Whatever you need, all you have to do is ask.
02:44I appreciate it.
02:44Thank you so much.
02:46I did have the opportunity to speak to Ronna's mother on several occasions.
02:51And at times, I kind of got her hopes up with our investigation, which I look back,
02:57and I don't know if I could have handled it any differently, but maybe a regret that I got
03:01our hopes up and that we weren't able to bring closure.
03:04We were able to bring her to that case before she passed away.
03:07Okay.
03:09Let's start off putting Ronna's pictures up here on the board.
03:12This is probably going to be Ronna and Joel.
03:15Can you remember how long she'd been married?
03:17Three years.
03:18They were both 22?
03:20Yes.
03:20Right.
03:20Young.
03:21This is going to be Samantha, you think?
03:23She was three at the time of her disappearance.
03:25Yeah, her daughter was three, and Stephen was one.
03:27Ronna Brimmer moved to Ozark, Missouri from Iowa in 1988 with her husband and two children.
03:38She was a stay-at-home mother, took good care of her kids.
03:41I don't know that she knew a lot of people in this community.
03:44Her parents from back in Iowa?
03:45Right.
03:46Yes.
03:46I couldn't figure out the Iowa-Missouri connection just because all of Joel's family was down
03:52here.
03:53Is that what made him move?
03:54Most likely.
03:55His connection with his sisters, they're pretty tight.
03:58Ron and Joel, who also went by Joe, moved a couple of miles away from his sisters, Barbara
04:04and Cheryl, and their husbands, David and John.
04:07They were hundreds of miles away from Ronna's parents, who didn't approve of Joel because
04:12of the way he treated Ronna.
04:14Joel and Ronna Brimmer, they're having some meritable issues.
04:19And he's already got tendencies to be violent with her.
04:23Oh, yeah.
04:23The history of violence, I mean, it's huge.
04:26Ronna's co-workers stated that Ronna would come to work and appeared to have been beaten
04:31up.
04:31And then the most notable documentation would be there was information that suggests that
04:37she had some type of an affair.
04:40And Joel, who had been drinking, had grabbed Ronna by the throat and choked her and then
04:46struck her in the face.
04:47When he caught her with the other guy, they were still there.
04:52In Iowa?
04:52Yes.
04:53And it wasn't long after that when they came down here.
04:56Okay.
04:56According to what some people said, Joel had questions about whether or not he was truly
05:01the father of Ronna's unborn child.
05:04If so, that questioning probably placed even more stress on their already tumultuous marriage.
05:11Okay.
05:12We'll start with the beginning of the story.
05:14Tell us about that night.
05:15Joel was staying with David and Barbara because of the problems he and Ronna were having.
05:19And Ronna showed up at the house that evening and they argued in the yard and she convinced
05:28Joel to go back with her to their house.
05:31So they left there.
05:33Two days later, on the 22nd, Joel and his sister, Barbara, they reported missing.
05:40Their sole vehicle, still there.
05:42Her contact lenses, her medication, purse, money, they're still there.
05:47I think the best way to start is if you can just tell us everything that you remember.
05:52Investigators interviewed Joel and his entire family about the night that Ronna went missing
05:57to try and nail down a timeline.
05:59Joel said that he and Ronna continued arguing at home.
06:03When she left to go pick up their kids from the babysitter, he walked off on foot.
06:07And it's still going through my head, you know, I don't want to do this no more.
06:12I don't want to be married to this woman anymore.
06:14So I still had my bag, duffel bag thing packed.
06:18So I just started walking again, took off.
06:21Joel's sister, Barbara, said that Ronna called her when she realized Joel had walked off.
06:27She was crying.
06:29She went up there without her.
06:31I said, no, it's not that there.
06:33According to Joel's brothers-in-law, David and John, Joel's sister, Barbara, sent them
06:39to drive around town to try and find Joel.
06:41They claimed they never found him and returned home.
06:44Later, Joel said he got cold, so he returned home and fell asleep with the kids in the living
06:50room.
06:50So at what point then do you realize she's not there when I got up the next morning?
06:55It all sounded kind of odd.
06:57So detectives considered Joel a suspect.
07:00So now on our suspect board, we're going to have three.
07:02I think we should start with Joel.
07:03But because they never could find her body, the case went cold.
07:07As the days went on, the investigation dies off.
07:11In 2001 is when my partner here started to initiate the investigation once more.
07:17At that point is when the witness came forward and told the story about what one of the suspects
07:24had relayed to them.
07:26I believe they were being honest.
07:28They were truly concerned for the fact that they had known about this for a while and hadn't
07:33come forward.
07:34So what story did they tell you?
07:35They had met David Gray.
07:38David Gray.
07:39David Gray told them that he had killed a woman and that he had her in his vehicle, choked
07:46her out.
07:46And then he took her to a place nearby his residence and disposed of her.
08:09He also told them about John Simpson helping him dispose of the body.
08:14Now we got John Simpson.
08:17John Simpson is married to Cheryl Simpson, who is a sister to Barbara Gray.
08:23And Joel.
08:23Yes.
08:24Guys, maybe next time y'all can get us a case where everybody's not related.
08:28That would be nice.
08:30The witness claims David Gray said that he and John Simpson disposed of Ronna's body
08:34in a crevice near his property.
08:36The witness then admitted that back in 1991, his girlfriend found a human skull in that
08:40area, but was scared to get involved and mailed it anonymously to law enforcement in
08:45a neighboring county.
08:46Christian County detectives obtained the skull, which had been unidentified for over 10 years.
08:51Through dental records, they confirmed that it was Ronna's.
08:54They searched the disposal site, but they never found any more of Ronna or her unborn baby's
08:58remains.
08:59So is this really going to be a case where the husband is really just asleep when his wife
09:04gets killed by his brother-in-law and it's not the husband who did it?
09:06I mean, it might be.
09:07Interesting question.
09:09Joel would have more to gain from Ronna being gone than David did.
09:15And his story is stupid with him being asleep.
09:18He didn't hurry up to report her.
09:20Yeah.
09:21How did...
09:21Why is David Gray going around telling people that he strangled this woman, though?
09:25Why would someone tell that story, even if you're drunk?
09:28I know.
09:29Because that's what makes me think he did it.
09:31So that makes us believe they're both involved.
09:33I don't know.
09:35I've never had a case like this before.
09:37We've got a lot of work to do.
09:38Kevin, have you ever met Deanna before?
09:58I've never had ever.
09:59I bet she'll be excited to meet you.
10:01It's been 36 years since Ronna Brimmer and her unborn child were murdered.
10:05Sadly, both of her parents passed away, never being able to get any answers or justice.
10:12Hello.
10:12How are you?
10:13I'm Kevin.
10:14Today, we're going to meet with her big sister, Deanna.
10:17It's nice to finally get to meet you.
10:19You too.
10:20My mom's talked highly of you.
10:21Yeah, we had some good conversations.
10:24Good.
10:24I was disappointed that I didn't have something for her before she passed away.
10:30Were you and Ronna close?
10:32That's the one thing that's the saddest, is that we never got to that point where we
10:35had an adult sisterhood relationship, you know.
10:38She always wanted to be a mom.
10:40She got married right out of high school.
10:42My sister was a lovely person.
10:44She was just sweet and sassy, and we had a great childhood.
10:47We'd ride our bikes everywhere, and we went to the ice cream shop a lot.
10:51We eventually moved from bicycles to mopeds so we could go out farther on the country roads.
10:56She was just very carefree and fun.
10:58It's unfortunate that someone so evil snuck that out of her.
11:02How did you see all this affect your mom and dad?
11:09It had to have.
11:12It's hard.
11:14You should never hear those kind of guttural sounds come out of anyone you love.
11:20So that's what I remember.
11:22Losing your child.
11:23I mean, no parent should ever go through that.
11:26My dad died, you know, shortly thereafter.
11:29I think it just broke, broke him.
11:32It broke him.
11:33I think my parents never wanted to burden me with a lot of that because they didn't want to take away my future.
11:42So they tried to let me go off to college and, you know, not worry me as much with it.
11:47But was there ever the joy and the happiness that I used to see in my parents?
11:52No.
11:53I would say they probably died the day she did.
11:55Did Rona confide in you about her relationship?
12:00She did not.
12:01I heard the concerns of my parents that he was being physical.
12:05You know, we tried so hard to get her away from him.
12:07And I just said, he will kill you if you stay with him.
12:09Was that before they moved down to Missouri?
12:11That was before they moved down to Missouri.
12:13Is there a reason why they moved down there?
12:16Barbara and her husband and three kids lived down in that area.
12:18And she was always kind of like a mom figure to him.
12:21Every time anything came up, he always ran to Barbara.
12:24Barbara called my parents a couple of days after she went missing.
12:28Do you know what she told them?
12:30Just that she ran away, which seemed very odd to us.
12:34She didn't take anything with her.
12:36And she would have never left her children.
12:38Who ended up raising them?
12:40Their father raised them.
12:41Joe did do a couple of years in prison.
12:43As if this case isn't bad enough, years later,
12:46Joel went to prison for molesting their daughter.
12:50It's not only heartbreaking, it makes you also wonder about his capacity
12:53for violence and deception.
12:55When that happened then, they finally granted my mom full custody of the children.
13:01Wow.
13:01When they were high schoolers.
13:03I just would really like the truth to come for her children more than anyone,
13:07just so they can have a little bit of peace.
13:10Just knowing what actually happened, and they just really never even knew her,
13:14which is the saddest thing.
13:15Justice will come.
13:17We're going to try our hardest.
13:18We are.
13:24It's nice to see it alive.
13:26Square is still going.
13:28When I was a teenager, everybody cruised the square.
13:30Yeah.
13:31Two lanes of traffic, and it was packed.
13:33Of course, nobody was drinking beer, right?
13:35No, no.
13:36We want to examine Joel's story and his family's story
13:40about the night we believe Ronald was killed.
13:42So we're going to hop in a couple of vehicles to retrace his steps
13:46and a couple of key locations.
13:48We're going to Ronna and Joel's residence back in 1988.
13:53This is the neighborhood where they lived right in here.
13:56Okay.
13:57And we're thinking it's one of these duplexes right here.
13:59That one or the one next to it.
14:02Joel's story starts at him and Ronna's duplex at 9.15.
14:06Joel said that he and Ronna were still arguing,
14:09and then when she left to go pick up the kids
14:11from the babysitter's house,
14:12he left on foot to go find someplace else to sleep.
14:15It's a convenience store gas station right here
14:17was at Casey's then.
14:19That they walked to all the time
14:20to use the phone, supposedly?
14:22Supposedly.
14:23Joel claimed that he first walked to a gas station named Casey's
14:26that's approximately two miles away.
14:28Joel and Ronna used the pay phone at Casey's often
14:31because they didn't have a phone of their own.
14:32Joel said that he went here
14:34because he was going to get a lighter.
14:37So that gas station is where Ronna would have been
14:41if Ronna was making the phone call to Barbara
14:44that Barbara says.
14:46About 10.30 or so, Ronna called me
14:49from Casey.
14:53And she was crying.
14:56She went to go down there.
14:57I said, no, I'm not getting back there.
15:00Ronna's phone call is what allegedly prompted
15:02David and John to go and look for Joel.
15:04What's strange is that Barbara claimed
15:06that she and Ronna spoke for hours.
15:09That's a long time for Ronna to be talking
15:11on a pay phone in 40-degree weather
15:13with two kids to care for.
15:14Was she trying to convince detectives
15:16that Ronna was still alive
15:17while David and John were out driving around
15:19looking for Joel?
15:21Unfortunately, Barbara's since passed away,
15:22so we won't be getting any more information
15:24about this phone call.
15:25This is a heck of a walk.
15:27Yeah.
15:27After Casey's, Joel said he walked approximately
15:29a half a mile to his place of work,
15:31which is a sportswear manufacturer.
15:33And this is where his story gets the strangest.
15:36Right up here is where Barbara and Joel worked,
15:40where he allegedly laid down and slept.
15:44Okay.
15:45And he said he was going to come here
15:47and sleep here until the morning
15:49so that he could get his paycheck.
15:51First of all, who's going to sleep outside
15:52in 40-degree weather?
15:54Joel's story concludes with him determining
15:56that it's too cold to sleep outside
15:58and him walking back to his house.
15:59He claims he fell asleep with his kids
16:01in the living room,
16:02unaware if Ronna was home or not,
16:04until the next morning when he realizes
16:05that she's actually missing.
16:07Feel a lot different out here,
16:08pitch dark at night, huh?
16:09Oh, yeah.
16:10The problem with a case like this
16:12is that it's impossible to know
16:14what's really true
16:15when everybody involved
16:16has some reason to want to lie.
16:20Hopefully, checking out the area
16:22where Ronna's skull was found
16:23can really help.
16:25So what you're seeing here
16:26is David Gray's property
16:28down below us.
16:30It goes right up the ridge
16:32that goes up to where
16:34the skull was found.
16:35Did he have that house
16:36back in 1988?
16:38Yeah, right there.
16:39And her body's found where?
16:41Below this ridge up here.
16:42Within eyesight.
16:43Yes.
16:43Yes.
16:44Come on.
16:45What are the odds
16:47that Ronna goes missing
16:48and there's his house
16:50and there's where she ends up?
16:52Give me a break.
16:52Standing here,
16:54looking at David Gray's house,
16:56I'm thinking this is probably
16:57the best piece of evidence
16:59we have in the whole case
17:00because who else is going
17:02to drag Ronna's body
17:03up this hill
17:05and I can't imagine
17:06one person did it alone.
17:08Today you get to meet
17:22Samantha, Joel,
17:24and Ronna's daughter
17:25who was, what,
17:26three at the time?
17:28Three years old.
17:28Three years old.
17:30Most of our witnesses
17:31in the 36-year-old murder
17:33of Ronna Bremer
17:34and her unborn child
17:36also happen to be suspects.
17:38But there's another witness
17:39we really want to talk to,
17:41Ronna and Joel's daughter,
17:42Samantha.
17:43We want to resolve this case.
17:46It would be amazing.
17:47Like, to have answers
17:48after 35 years.
17:49Yeah.
17:50Samantha not only lost her mom,
17:52she's also the victim
17:54that Joel later went to prison
17:55for when he molested her.
17:57So we need to approach her
17:59and talk to her
18:00as delicately as we can
18:02without cameras.
18:04I have my one core memory
18:05from that night.
18:06I remember her being mad
18:08and it was late.
18:09I assumed she was mad
18:10that our dad wasn't home.
18:11Okay.
18:12And we saw the lights
18:13go across the wall.
18:14Like vehicle lights?
18:15Yeah, exactly.
18:16Like somebody parking
18:17in the driveway.
18:17Right.
18:18And your mother said?
18:19There he is.
18:20Okay.
18:21Referring to your dad.
18:22Okay.
18:23And did he come in or?
18:24No.
18:25No?
18:26Samantha can still remember
18:27a car pulling up
18:29because she saw the headlights
18:30and her mom going,
18:32there he is.
18:33But we know Joel
18:34was on foot that night.
18:36So who gave him a ride?
18:37Could it have been
18:38one of our other suspects?
18:40Did you ever ask him
18:42where she was at?
18:43Of course.
18:43We always wanted to know
18:44where our mom was.
18:45Like he would tell us
18:46that she didn't love us
18:47and that's why she ran away.
18:48Every time we'd ask
18:49what really happened to our mom,
18:51there was some crazy,
18:53mean reason
18:54why she wasn't around.
18:55I can understand a father
18:56having a hard time
18:57explaining to his child
18:59why their mother was gone.
19:01But what nobody understands
19:02is why you would tell them
19:03stories that are so hurtful.
19:05Mother says,
19:06there he is.
19:07So that goes along
19:08with your thinking that
19:09she came out.
19:11She was mad.
19:11There was a confrontation
19:12and then everything blew up.
19:14And you still got to ask yourself
19:15how much can you rely
19:16on a three-year-old's memory?
19:18I think something
19:18traumatic like that
19:20could have a lasting impression
19:23that she wouldn't remember.
19:24Yeah, they say it
19:24imprints on your brain, right?
19:26Yes.
19:34Well, it's been a long time.
19:36Are we all good?
19:37Yes.
19:38It's been 23 years
19:40since a witness
19:40has come forward
19:41with information
19:42about Ronna's murder
19:44and the location
19:45of her skull.
19:46Fortunately,
19:47he has agreed
19:48to come in today
19:49with his lawyer.
19:50You are the foundation
19:51of the case
19:52and you're going
19:52to be a beautiful witness.
19:54And you're okay
19:55with that, right?
19:56I have to be.
19:57That's what I feel.
19:58The question is,
19:59can he confirm
20:00his story today?
20:02Is it consistent
20:03with what he said
20:04back then?
20:05And is he credible?
20:06I was working for
20:07and he asked me
20:09to go down there
20:09on that property of his,
20:12clean it up,
20:13live down there.
20:15That's where
20:15I first met Dave, right?
20:17Of course,
20:18he introduced himself
20:19as my neighbor.
20:20You know,
20:20back then,
20:21he'd drink and party
20:22and he drank a lot.
20:24At some point in time,
20:25he had made
20:26some comment about,
20:28don't, you know,
20:31say,
20:31if you find bones
20:33or bones around here
20:35or something to that effect.
20:36After that,
20:37he was telling me up there
20:39we'd drink him all night
20:40about how Rana
20:41and her car
20:42had broke down
20:43and he went
20:44to go get her
20:45and she started
20:46saying a lot of stuff
20:48about she was going
20:50to ruin the greys
20:51and I never understood
20:52what she could use
20:53to ruin the greys.
20:55But anyway,
20:55he told me that
20:56when she started that,
20:58he just started choking her.
21:00I guess he thought
21:01he had her killed
21:02and she apparently
21:04wasn't dead.
21:06So he said
21:07he just choked
21:08the living hell out
21:09of her that time.
21:10What's his attitude like
21:11when he's telling you this?
21:13The most painless thing
21:14I believe I've ever seen
21:15in my life.
21:16You just...
21:17I had to kill
21:18a son of a bitch twice.
21:21I just laughed
21:22and I thought,
21:23damn.
21:24He told me he went
21:25and got John Simpson,
21:26his brother-in-law.
21:28But apparently
21:28they lugged her up the hill
21:29and dropped her
21:31in the narrow slit
21:32in the rocks there.
21:34And he went up there
21:35the next day
21:35and threw some more
21:37brush and stuff in on her
21:38because he could kind of
21:39see her shirt.
21:42Today's story matches
21:43what he first told detectives.
21:45It's unclear where Rana
21:47had car trouble,
21:49though possibly
21:50at the gas station.
21:51We also don't know
21:52what information
21:53she may have had
21:54to talk about
21:55trying to threaten
21:56the Gray's family,
21:57but whatever it was,
21:59that could have been
22:00David's motive.
22:01John, at no time
22:02after that,
22:03ever told you anything
22:04about that incident?
22:05John never said anything
22:07about it, ever.
22:08I suspect Dave
22:11drove up there
22:12and didn't tell him
22:13what he was there for.
22:15John didn't know
22:16what was going on
22:17probably until he got
22:17in that truck.
22:19David never mentioned
22:20Joel.
22:21Is that because
22:22he was protecting him?
22:23Maybe,
22:24but he sure wasn't
22:25protecting John.
22:26At some point in time
22:27when my girlfriend
22:28went pushing money
22:30or something
22:30during the day
22:31while I was working
22:32and said something
22:32about they had found
22:33a skull down there,
22:35I just thought,
22:36crap,
22:37this guy wasn't
22:39mouth at all.
22:40I didn't want anything
22:41to do as I just
22:42told her,
22:43package it up
22:44and send it
22:44to Green County
22:46I think it was.
22:46At that point
22:47I had a feeling
22:48that it wouldn't bother
22:49him to kill
22:49somebody else.
22:51You read the file
22:52and you read
22:52how important
22:53he is to the case
22:54but you wonder
22:55what's he like today?
22:57And he was great.
22:58Oh, he was so good.
23:00He remembered
23:01everything important.
23:03I don't think
23:03he got any big thing
23:05wrong or inconsistent
23:06and I think
23:08a jury's gonna love him.
23:09I hope you guys
23:10do your job
23:11when I'm alive afterwards.
23:27Hello, John.
23:28You want to jump
23:28in the front with me
23:29for a minute?
23:30This case is very much
23:31complicated by the fact
23:32that you have a version
23:33of the story
23:34that came out
23:35of the mouth
23:35of David Gray
23:37according to one
23:38very important witness
23:39that David's brother-in-law
23:41John Simpson
23:42may have also
23:43been involved.
23:44Let's go through
23:45what you remember
23:46of that incident
23:47when Ronna disappeared.
23:49John Simpson
23:50has been interviewed.
23:51He passed a polygraph
23:52but you have this version
23:54of the story
23:54that puts John Simpson
23:55and David Gray
23:57in the middle
23:57of the story
23:58so what do you do
23:59with John Simpson?
24:00We don't know
24:01until we talk to him.
24:02I went over
24:02down to Barb and Davis.
24:04Barb come out
24:05and said
24:05she got a phone call
24:06and Ronna called.
24:07Joe took off
24:09and got in a fight.
24:10So Barb wanted
24:10Dave to go in town
24:12so I went in town
24:12with him
24:13looking for Joe.
24:14So when you were
24:14with David
24:15looking for Joe
24:16did you actually
24:16go to their duplex?
24:19Yeah.
24:19To see if he showed
24:20back up.
24:21I could see her
24:22and him at the same time
24:23and they just talked
24:24for a little bit.
24:24So Ronna came out
24:25and talked to David?
24:26Yeah.
24:26In the doorway?
24:27Yeah.
24:27Okay.
24:28And what did he say
24:29when he got back
24:29in the truck?
24:30Oh I said
24:30he hadn't come back home
24:32so he didn't know
24:32where he was at.
24:33So Dave dropped me off
24:34and he told Barb
24:35he was going to go
24:36there's like two different ways
24:37to go down to their house
24:38and he was going to go
24:38check the other way
24:39make sure he wasn't
24:40walking that way.
24:41Did you actually
24:42see him leave?
24:43Well his headlights
24:43were coming out
24:44behind me.
24:44Okay.
24:45John seems forthcoming
24:47and admits that he and David
24:48stopped by Ronna's
24:50looking for Joel
24:51likely making them
24:52the last people
24:53to see her alive.
24:54But did that play out
24:56as innocently
24:56as John claims?
24:58Or is it possible
24:59that David went back
25:01after dropping John off?
25:02Everybody says
25:04that you and David
25:05hunted around
25:06down there a lot.
25:07On the property
25:07if you go up
25:08that hillside
25:09there's a crevice
25:10you familiar with that?
25:12Yeah.
25:13So in that area
25:14that's where
25:15Ronna's skull
25:17including part of her teeth
25:18are found.
25:19Was Joe big enough
25:21to move Ronna's
25:22unconscious dead body
25:24all by himself
25:25and put it up
25:26in this area
25:26we've been talking about?
25:27It'd be hard.
25:30Here's the deal
25:31we have witnesses
25:32that told us
25:34that David did this
25:36and that he went
25:37and picked you up
25:37in Islandville
25:38and helped
25:38get rid of her body.
25:41All I can say
25:42is I didn't do it.
25:43Coming up on Ronna
25:44already dead
25:45and helping move her body
25:46doesn't make you
25:47guilty of murder.
25:48Did you have anything
25:49to do with that?
25:51Do you think
25:51that David did?
25:52At the time
25:53I didn't think
25:54it was possible
25:54but anymore
25:55I'm not too sure
25:56to be honest.
25:57Because?
25:59There's too many
25:59things don't add up.
26:01things don't add up.
26:02John's story
26:03seems pretty consistent
26:04and he didn't even
26:05get rattled
26:06when we confronted
26:07him a little harder.
26:08Right now
26:09I don't know
26:09what to think.
26:10If he's a liar
26:11he's good.
26:19Today is the day
26:21that I don't think
26:22you'll hold anything
26:22back with Joel.
26:24Say some prayers.
26:25We don't need any.
26:26We got this.
26:28We've talked
26:29to one suspect
26:29and we've got
26:30two more to go.
26:31Next we want to talk
26:32to Ronna's husband
26:32Joel Bremer.
26:34We know their marriage
26:34was strange
26:35and he was abusive
26:36and that they argued
26:37that night.
26:38At this point
26:38that's about all
26:39we're sure of.
26:40Hey how you doing sir?
26:41Joel?
26:42Joel.
26:43Will Joel tell us
26:44anything today
26:45that suggests
26:45that he actually
26:46is involved
26:47in the death
26:47of Ronna
26:48and her unborn baby?
26:49Tell me a little bit
26:50about what you remember
26:50from back then.
26:51We had an argument.
26:54I went and stayed
26:55with my sister
26:55for a few days.
26:57Ronna came down
26:58and begged me
26:59to go back to the
27:00we lived in a duplex
27:02at the time.
27:03She was trying
27:04to make a scene
27:05so I said
27:05you know fine
27:06I'll go home with you.
27:07And she had left
27:08our kids at my niece's house
27:10and she went
27:11to get the kids.
27:12After I took my shower
27:13the more I just got
27:15I said you know
27:15I can't do this
27:16I mean her
27:18just ain't gonna
27:18get along.
27:20So I packed up
27:22a duffel bag
27:23and I headed out.
27:24When I was walking
27:25I went by the
27:26I think it was
27:26the Casey's.
27:27I bought me a little
27:28half pint of
27:30Snops.
27:32When I came out
27:33of Casey's
27:34down there
27:34I seen
27:35my two brother-in-laws
27:37John and David
27:38drive by.
27:40They were heading
27:41towards where
27:41I used to live.
27:43Joel initially
27:44told investigators
27:44that he bought
27:45a lighter at Casey's.
27:46Now he's telling us
27:47that he bought
27:47peppermint schnapps.
27:49He initially said
27:50that he only saw
27:50David drive by
27:51but now today
27:52he's telling us
27:53that he saw
27:53David and John.
27:54These aren't huge
27:55inconsistencies
27:56but you have to wonder
27:57if he's hiding something.
27:58I went down to
27:59where I used to work
28:00so the next day
28:01was payday
28:02and I was gonna
28:02get my check
28:03and go someplace.
28:05You know
28:05I didn't really care
28:05where the hell I went.
28:07It was colder
28:08than crap.
28:10So I ended up
28:12walking back
28:12to the house
28:13and when I got there
28:14I'd never seen her
28:16and I slept
28:17on the couch
28:18and the next morning
28:20when I got up
28:21she was gone.
28:23Joel's story
28:23still does not
28:24make much sense.
28:25Instead of walking home
28:26where he said
28:27he didn't want to be
28:28he could have just
28:29used the pay phone
28:29at Casey's
28:30and had Barbara
28:31come pick him up
28:32and stay at her place
28:33because that's where
28:34he had been
28:34the night before.
28:35David wasn't like
28:36a brother-in-law
28:37he was kind of
28:38more of like
28:38a big brother
28:39to you.
28:40Yeah.
28:40At one point
28:41he was like
28:41a big brother.
28:41I belong better to him
28:42than I do
28:43my real brother.
28:44Are you aware
28:45that David confessed
28:48to killing Ronna?
28:49Oh he did?
28:50Yes he did.
28:51I didn't know that.
28:52I never talked
28:53to David
28:53that much after that.
28:54Why would you
28:55never talk to him
28:56much after that?
28:57He was working
28:58and...
28:59But before that
29:00you did talk to him.
29:02Occasionally.
29:03Well you were
29:03at his house
29:04all the time
29:04you just said
29:05he wasn't like
29:05your brother-in-law
29:06and you said
29:06you were closer
29:07to him
29:07than your brother.
29:09Why would David
29:10want to kill
29:11Ronna?
29:13I have no idea.
29:14I mean you had
29:15lots of reasons
29:15to want to kill her.
29:16You wanted to get
29:17away from her
29:18and your history
29:19of abuse
29:20to Ronna.
29:22The domestic
29:22violence arrest
29:23that you had?
29:24Yeah.
29:25You and David
29:26did something
29:27to Ronna.
29:28This is crazy.
29:31Told you all
29:32the truth.
29:33I've not lied
29:34to you at all.
29:35Ask him.
29:36I don't know
29:37what you expect
29:38me to say.
29:39Thank you
29:40for talking to us.
29:41You guys
29:42have a blessed day.
29:44This was.
29:45How'd it go?
29:47He went through
29:48kind of a similar
29:49account to
29:50some of the
29:50past interviews.
29:51What did Joel
29:52say out of
29:53Joel's mouth
29:54that puts him
29:56guilty?
29:57I don't know
29:57that there was
29:59anything that
29:59because he just
30:00kept saying
30:00the same things
30:01over and over again.
30:02This is going
30:02to be his
30:03what?
30:03Fifth interview
30:04in how many years?
30:06Joel Brimmer
30:07is very consistent
30:08which is very unusual
30:09when someone
30:10is guilty.
30:11And you don't
30:12have any witness
30:13that points the
30:14finger directly
30:15at that night
30:16Joel Brimmer
30:17being the one
30:17who killed Ronna.
30:19But the other
30:19important thing
30:20with Joel
30:20is remember
30:20he also says
30:21he was done
30:22with Ronna
30:23which I'm like
30:23those coincidences
30:24don't happen.
30:25That's the night
30:26you're going to
30:26walk away
30:27and she also
30:27ends up dead
30:28by somebody else.
30:29That's crazy
30:30so I think
30:31he is in the
30:31middle of it
30:32but the problem
30:32is if you believe
30:34or you don't
30:36pick and choose
30:36the parts you believe
30:37he says
30:38that David Gray
30:39told him
30:40John Simpson
30:41helped.
30:42I believe
30:42but I don't
30:44believe David Gray.
30:46Okay.
30:47Okay.
30:47Gotcha.
30:48Alright.
30:48Good point.
30:49So you're
30:49thinking tomorrow
30:50you're going to
30:51get David Gray
30:51talking.
30:53He's going to
30:53tell us what
30:53happened.
30:54I like that.
30:55Hello.
31:14Hi.
31:14How are you?
31:15Good.
31:16Is David here?
31:16Yeah.
31:17He just went
31:17down for a nap.
31:18Oh he did?
31:20Talk to him?
31:20Yeah.
31:21If he's got a few
31:21minutes.
31:22What's your name?
31:23Trinity.
31:23I'm his daughter.
31:23Oh Trinity.
31:24Hi.
31:25We've got one
31:26last suspect to
31:27talk to in the
31:281988 murder of
31:29Ronna Bremer and
31:30her unborn baby
31:31her brother-in-law
31:33David Gray.
31:34According to a
31:35witness David
31:36confessed to
31:37killing Ronna and
31:38disposing of her
31:39body near his
31:40property.
31:41The same property
31:42where her skull
31:42was discovered.
31:44Hello sir.
31:45Hello sir.
31:46How are you?
31:47I was trying
31:47to say that.
31:48Oh.
31:49I'd like to
31:50visit with you
31:50for a few
31:51minutes.
31:52We don't have
31:52a strong motive
31:53for why David
31:54would have killed
31:55her.
31:56But we're
31:56looking for
31:56any inconsistencies
31:58that might
31:58implicate him,
32:00John, or
32:01Joel.
32:02Ronna and
32:02Joel's marriage
32:03had a lot
32:04of problems.
32:05Yeah.
32:06What all did
32:07you see?
32:08What kind of
32:08problems did you
32:09see in their
32:09marriage?
32:10They were both
32:11too young
32:12as stupid
32:13as stupid
32:13as they
32:14get married
32:14and have
32:15kids.
32:15So that
32:16was just
32:16normal for
32:17them to be
32:18in arguments
32:18and fights,
32:19okay?
32:20Yeah,
32:20all screaming
32:20at each
32:21other.
32:22So that's
32:22pretty disruptive
32:23for you guys,
32:24wasn't it?
32:25Yeah,
32:25I sure
32:26didn't like it.
32:27Yeah,
32:27and that
32:27particular day
32:28she came
32:29down here
32:30and they
32:30were out
32:31in your
32:31front yard
32:32having
32:32words and
32:34then she
32:34convinced
32:34him to go
32:35back to
32:35Ozark
32:35with her.
32:36Yeah.
32:37Does that
32:38make Barbara
32:38get worried
32:39about him?
32:40Is that
32:40why you
32:40were looking
32:40for him?
32:41The whole
32:42thing had her
32:42all worked
32:43out.
32:44I was worried
32:44about Joe.
32:45Was she?
32:46He was the
32:47baby of the
32:47family.
32:50Sounds like
32:50she took care
32:51of him.
32:52Yeah,
32:52she did.
32:53Yeah.
32:54She wanted
32:54me to go
32:56back and
32:56find him
32:57and help him.
32:57Did you ever
32:58find him?
32:59No.
33:00Do you know
33:00who all was
33:01here when that
33:01happened?
33:02Just you and
33:02Barbara?
33:03No,
33:03John Simpson
33:04was here,
33:04my brother-in-law.
33:05Did you go
33:06to their house?
33:07No.
33:08You didn't?
33:09Where did
33:09you go
33:09looking for
33:10that?
33:11It was
33:11up and down
33:11the road here.
33:12OK.
33:13I figured he
33:13was walking
33:14somewhere.
33:15Now,
33:16according to
33:17Joe,
33:17he saw you
33:17drive by Casey's
33:18there in Ozark.
33:19I don't think
33:20I went to town.
33:21OK.
33:22What do you
33:23remember after
33:23that, after you
33:24said you didn't
33:25find him?
33:26We went to bed,
33:27I guess.
33:28Today,
33:29David is saying
33:30that he never
33:30went by Ron
33:31and Jules that
33:32night, which
33:33contradicts what
33:34John told us.
33:35And he's also
33:36claiming today that
33:37he never went
33:38into town.
33:39Is he trying to
33:40distance himself?
33:41When they reported
33:42her missing, nobody
33:43ever saw her
33:44again.
33:45And then in 1991,
33:46there was a skull
33:47found right up here
33:48behind your house.
33:49And that skull was
33:49determined to be
33:50Ronis.
33:51Do you remember
33:51that?
33:53I remember
33:54they sent it up
33:55in the mail.
33:56We found the people
33:56that mailed it,
33:58and they told us
34:00where they found it,
34:00and it was right up
34:01here, up the hill
34:02from your house.
34:04It's the first time
34:05every day.
34:06Those people told
34:06us that you told
34:07them you got Roni
34:10in your truck.
34:10It was upset because
34:11she was causing
34:12grief for the Gray
34:14family, and you
34:15killed her.
34:19I don't think so.
34:21You didn't ever
34:21tell him by that?
34:22No.
34:23There were people
34:24that said that you
34:24told them that,
34:26and that you were
34:26pretty detailed about
34:27what took place.
34:29Based on our
34:30investigation, David,
34:31you killed Roni
34:33and threw her
34:33in that hole.
34:36Why didn't?
34:37Why would a witness
34:38make that up?
34:39And they just
34:40happened to get it
34:40right that the very
34:42space you told them
34:43you put her is
34:44where they found
34:45her skull.
34:46We think Joel's
34:47involved, too,
34:48and we're here today
34:49to ask you if he's
34:50the one that did it
34:51because right now,
34:52the only person
34:53we're looking at
34:53is you.
34:54I think you ought
34:55to ask Joel that.
34:56We did, and he
34:57said to come ask
34:58you.
34:58Yeah.
34:59Your own mouth
35:00sinks you.
35:02Your own words
35:03got you.
35:04You're in a bind,
35:05and you're going
35:05to end up getting
35:06arrested for this.
35:07What we don't
35:08understand is why
35:09you're going to let
35:09Joel get away with
35:10it.
35:14And the reason
35:14she's asking that
35:15is that you told
35:17somebody that John
35:18Simpson helped you
35:18carry that body
35:20up that hill.
35:21I don't know that
35:21I believe that.
35:22There's a lot of
35:22hearsay people saying
35:23this and that.
35:24It's not hearsay
35:25if it comes out of
35:25your mouth.
35:26It comes from you,
35:26David.
35:27Now's your opportunity
35:28to tell us about it.
35:29You might not have
35:30that opportunity
35:30to give him.
35:34It's clear that
35:35David's got nothing
35:36else to say to us,
35:37and honestly,
35:38we don't have anything
35:39else to say to him.
35:41I would have given
35:42up 30 minutes
35:43before you did.
35:45That's a cold,
35:46stone cold,
35:47excuse my language,
35:48mother
35:48so now y'all got to
36:01eyeball Joel and David
36:03Gray and Simpson to get
36:04a clear picture of how
36:06they look in person and
36:07what their stories sound
36:07like in person.
36:09We've reviewed all the
36:10statements, talked to the
36:12suspects, gone over all
36:13the evidence, and now it's
36:15time for us to run it
36:16all down with the
36:17prosecuting attorney's
36:18office.
36:18I think that we've
36:19learned or confirmed
36:20everything that we can.
36:22I don't know what to
36:23think about John Simpson.
36:25He passed a polygraph.
36:26He's always been
36:27cooperative.
36:27He couldn't have been
36:28any more helpful today
36:29answering our questions.
36:31We hit him hard with,
36:32but why would David Gray
36:34say, you're the one that
36:36helped move her body up
36:37there?
36:37He doesn't have an answer.
36:39All I can say is I didn't
36:40do it.
36:41I don't know if I'd
36:41clear him, though, because
36:43if you have and his story
36:46is his story, we don't get
36:47to pick and choose.
36:49Only he went and got
36:50John Simpson.
36:51Apparently they lugged
36:52her up the hill and dropped
36:54her in the narrow slit in
36:56the rocks there.
36:57It sounds like we're all
36:58agreeing that as much as we
37:00don't want to think he's
37:01involved, we're leaving him
37:02on the board.
37:03OK.
37:04Is it possible that John was
37:05involved or that he knows a
37:07little more?
37:08The only way we're ever going
37:09to know that is if it comes
37:10out of the mouth of someone
37:12who was involved.
37:13So now we got these two.
37:16Joel Bremer, the husband with
37:18all the motive in the world,
37:19and David Gray.
37:20Most of the evidence that
37:21we've collected points to
37:23David Gray, which begins with
37:25the statements.
37:26The strangling story is so
37:27specific.
37:29He just...
37:30I had to kill a son of a
37:32bitch twice.
37:33Ha!
37:33I just laughed.
37:34And I thought, damn.
37:36I had to choke the bitch
37:38twice.
37:38Twice laughing about it.
37:41That's how much remembers
37:42that moment in his brain.
37:44You don't make that up.
37:45And then he says, if you find
37:46bones, don't mess with them.
37:48You have the bones that are
37:49found right next to his house.
37:51You can look out his front door
37:52and see where she ends up
37:53being found.
37:55But he couldn't have done it
37:56by himself.
37:57Dead weights, very hard to
37:58handle, very hard to carry.
38:00Right.
38:01And Joel didn't take her up that
38:02hill by himself.
38:03When you talk to your
38:05prosecutor, what are you going
38:06to focus on?
38:07The problems that she and
38:08Joel were having.
38:10And then Joel bringing those
38:12problems to David and Barbara's
38:14house.
38:14I think David was fed up with it.
38:17Ronna and Joel's marriage had a
38:19lot of problems.
38:20Yeah.
38:21Yelling and screaming at each
38:23other.
38:23I sure didn't like it.
38:25I think what happened is Joel
38:26goes to the gas station and he
38:28calls Barbara.
38:29And Barbara sends David and
38:31John.
38:31I think that David goes to the
38:34house to try to find Joel.
38:35He doesn't find Joel.
38:37So David drops John home.
38:39And as he's coming back, David
38:41sees Joel and he picks him up.
38:43And I think then that's how they
38:44end up back at the house.
38:46It's possible, yeah.
38:47I think what happened is she
38:49comes running out of the house
38:50and maybe she comes at him and
38:51she's all ticked off and he just
38:54is just fed up and he snaps.
38:57If I was your prosecutor and I was
38:59making an opening statement or
39:00find an argument to a jury, I
39:02would acknowledge right away.
39:03Look, we're not going to be able
39:05to give you a point by point
39:07PowerPoint that lets you see like
39:09they do on TV exactly how this
39:11went down, because that's not the
39:12way it works in the real world.
39:14People lie and people cover and
39:16they don't want to talk on their
39:17family.
39:18So what are we going to do about
39:19that?
39:19Let them get away with it.
39:21So it is time to hold them
39:22responsible.
39:24And it's not just Ronna.
39:26There was a baby.
39:28Yeah, you're right.
39:29There was a baby.
39:31We keep talking about her like
39:33she's dragging around a bag or
39:34something and there was a baby
39:36there.
39:36And that child died in the midst
39:39of all of this.
39:40And we can't let that go either.
39:42I think you don't have a lot of
39:44time.
39:44Charge them out, get them in front
39:46of a jury and let the jury make
39:47the decision.
39:48There's nothing else y'all can do.
39:50No.
39:50We believe we built a strong case
39:52against David and Joel and now
39:55it's in the prosecuting attorney's
39:56hands.
39:57OK, so y'all are meeting with
39:58your prosecutor tomorrow morning.
40:00We'll be waiting to hear what she
40:01tells you.
40:11This is exciting.
40:12Very exciting.
40:13These guys are very low-key,
40:15nonchalant about it, but it's a
40:16big thing.
40:18The meeting with prosecuting
40:19attorney Kristen Tui went really
40:21well.
40:21And now it's time to share what
40:23happened in that meeting with
40:24Ronna's sister Deanna and her
40:26daughter Samantha, who's very
40:28excited to come.
40:29Good morning.
40:30Good morning.
40:31We're glad that you could make
40:32it.
40:33We actually just met with the
40:34prosecutor a little while ago
40:35and the prosecutor has told us
40:38that she's willing to move
40:40forward with this and get some
40:43charges filed.
40:45Wow.
40:45This is bigger news than I thought.
40:47It's amazing.
40:48Could either be a big day or a
40:49really disappointing one.
40:50You guys just made it a really
40:51big day.
40:52So it appears to us that there
40:54will be two people that will be
40:56charged in this case, both Joel
40:58and David.
41:01Thank you so much.
41:03It's a good closure.
41:04I can't believe it.
41:06We've waited a very, very long
41:08time for this news, so it feels
41:11good.
41:11It feels freeing.
41:13My mom died two years ago.
41:14I just know that she's been at
41:16work on this.
41:16I just know it.
41:17So it's happening today because
41:19of that.
41:19I'm convinced.
41:21It's a good day, and we're so
41:23happy to give you all good news.
41:24Yeah.
41:25Thank you so much.
41:26Kevin, tell him what you said
41:27walking over here.
41:32Go ahead.
41:33I'll tell him in a minute.
41:34He's close to my mom, and he
41:36wishes she was here today.
41:37Yeah.
41:37Yeah, she is.
41:39And thank you, too.
41:40I mean, she thought the world of
41:41you.
41:41When are you going to arrest them?
41:45When can we get them behind bars?
41:48We would like to see them behind
41:49bars probably as much as you.
41:51We are going to move it as quickly
41:53as we can.
41:54And we're committed to putting in
41:56the time to see this through to the
41:58end.
41:59Good.
41:59Thank you so much.
42:01Ronna was taken away from this
42:03world at a very young age with an
42:05unborn child.
42:06She's had two children that had to
42:08live their whole lives being told
42:09lies about why their mother left
42:11them.
42:12Both of her parents went to their
42:13graves not ever getting answers or
42:16any kind of justice.
42:18Thank you so much.
42:21And the hope is that today, finally,
42:25for Ronna's son and daughter and
42:27sister, they can finally get justice.
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