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On the 76th Constitution Day, Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Wednesday urged citizens to fulfil their Constitutional duties and said freedom is not only about rights, but duties and unity too.
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00:00Good evening, hello and welcome. You're with the news today. This is your primetime destination news,
00:06newsmakers, talking points Wednesday night, the big talking point. It's Constitution Day,
00:11Samvidan Divas. Is the Constitution in danger as the opposition claims or are we seeing a
00:17celebration of democracy? That's going to be our big talking point. Three top jurists,
00:22Harish Salve, Abhishek Singhvi and Mahe Jaitmalani will join me on the show today. So we'll have
00:28three legal minds on that big constitution question. Also, on a day when India has suffered
00:34its worst ever test defeat, Sunil Gavaskar is among my guests tonight and we'll have another special
00:41for you that I'll reveal at the end of the show. But first, as always, it's time for the nine
00:47headlines at nine. The 76 Constitution Day sparks off a fierce political storm as the leader of
00:55opposition. Rahul Gandhi says he wants to shield the constitution from majoritarianism. The BJP hits
01:03back at the Gandhis. Prime Minister Modi says Samvidan is uplifting the people of the country.
01:15Congress High Command now expected to take a final call on Karnataka Chief Minister next week.
01:21D.K. Shivkumar and Siddharamaya to meet the Congress leadership on the weekend. DKS also agrees to follow
01:28High Command's order as does Siddharamaya even as Malikarjun Kharge reaches Bengaluru.
01:38Days after the blast at Redford in India, today's special investigation reveals how explosive items
01:44like ammonium, nitrate, fuel, oil and other such ingredients still available easily in large quantities
01:50off the shelf. It's an exclusive investigation. Shocker from Haryana. National level basketball
01:58player dies in Rotak after the pole fell on him while practicing. It's the second such incident in 48
02:05hours. Congress slams the BJP-led government. The district level sports official is suspended.
02:10After Delhi, Mumbai now battles with air pollution. Blanket of smog covers the financial capital.
02:19Grab three measures revoked in Delhi after AQI slightly improves.
02:26Chief Minister Omar Abdullah slams the BJP over the Vaishnaw Devi. College admission
02:31Rao says can't set aside merit for religion. Right-wing group stage protest in Jammu.
02:38At least 13 dead after a massive fire breaks out in multiple residential towers in Hong Kong.
02:47Several people reportedly trapped inside high rises.
02:54Coach Gautam Gambhir faces the heat as India succumb to their worst ever test defeat in terms of runs
03:01against South Africa. Lose by a record margin of 408 runs in the series 2-0.
03:10And it's official now the 2030 Commonwealth Games to be hosted by Ahmedabad.
03:15Commonwealth Games return to India for the first time after 2010.
03:19Dolored Dubai should not come here to talk to otherец nationals.
03:37But my top story tonight.men
03:38Today is the day when the Republic was given a constitution, a document that many believe
03:45transformed this country. It's an important day therefore in India's
03:50history and the nation celebrated the 76th Constitution Day. But it also should
03:56come with some introspection. Is the Constitution in danger as the opposition
04:00parties suggest or does it still remain a strong and thriving protector of our
04:06democracy? That's the question I'm going to raise with some of the country's top
04:10legal minds today. But first to remind you that our political leadership sparked
04:15off a debate on this occasion. While a special event was held at the Central
04:19Hall of Savidhan Sadhan, attended by the President, Vice President, Prime Minister
04:24and Leader of Opposition and MPs, President Draupadi Murbu claimed the
04:27Constitution helps India move away from a colonial mindset and embrace a
04:31nationalistic approach. Prime Minister Narendra Modi in an open letter also
04:35paid tribute to the Constitution saying it enabled a person like him to serve for
04:4024 continuous years. But the opposition on the other hand has also hit out. Leader of
04:46the opposition Raul Gandhi took a pledge once again to protect and shield the
04:50Constitution from what he said was an assault it was facing. He urged everyone to
04:55take a pledge not to allow any kind of attack on the Constitution. So the big
05:01question I want to raise. Is the Constitution a true protector of our democracy? My first
05:11guest joining me now is Abhishek Manu Singhvi, fourth time sitting MP of the Congress but
05:18also himself a senior lawyer and someone who has studied the Constitution over the
05:24years. Appreciate your joining us Dr. Singhvi. Is it an exaggeration on this special day to
05:30say as your leader Raul Gandhi said? Is that not fear mongering? You're on mute sir. You're on mute Dr. Singhvi.
05:42There are no binaries in such debates. You know we frame it black and white never. Constitution
05:50undoubtedly is our protector. Constitution undoubtedly is a fantastic concept, commitment, idea and I have a
05:57personal you know remembrance about it because my father drafted the Charter for the Law Day which
06:03has now become the Constitution Day rightly after almost 30 years it was celebrated across the country
06:08in the Supreme Court and the High Courts as Law Day and he had hand drafted the Charter. But
06:14ultimately we have to nobody who's debating today is entirely wrong or right. Nobody is saying it's a binary of black and white.
06:23But we certainly have huge areas, humongous areas of operational improvement.
06:29It's a Constitution. Give me one example. No, no, let's be. I'll give you more than one. It's not me who struck the binary.
06:35It's the politicians who have given me two or three areas where you specifically believe that Constitution is in danger.
06:41I'll give you more than one, but only one sentence before that. We, as Ambedkar said, a Constitution by itself is neither good or bad. It is man who is wild.
06:51How you operate it and the institutions, man or woman by person. So let me come to my examples. There are, Rajdeep, institutional pillars of Indian democracy and there are non-institutional pillars of Indian democracy.
07:04Non-institutional are sometimes more important. Secularism. A very little known word of our call is fraternity. Federalism.
07:12Now you put your hand on your heart and tell me the much abused word secularism, the much misunderstood word by any reckoning.
07:19Can it not be said that large parts of it, large facets of it are endangered daily in our lives? That's one. Fraternity, which is the antithesis of divisiveness,
07:30of doubt and suspicion on brother against brother is a very closely linked concept to secularism that also is in everyday incidents we find endangered.
07:41And so also I would say with all the nice rhetoric about cooperative federalism, competitive federalism, actually federalism from the governors to the, you know, the fiscal transfers to the nature of the actions of sometimes governors,
07:59the sopari agents of the center, et cetera, all three non-institutional pillars are clearly endangered.
08:05Let's come to the institutional pillars. There are very many from parliament, election commission, judiciary, CAG, the investigative agencies, and so many more.
08:17Now, again, we don't have time to go into individual examples, but can you really say that in the last many, many years, there has not been a diminution of several institutions?
08:28Why? Because you have a overriding sense of control freakism.
08:34You must control an institution, the whole object of which is not to be designed for control.
08:39It is designed to run the constitution, not for your control.
08:43That is found in investigative agencies, which are one smaller part of our constitutional scheme.
08:47But certainly parliament, the kind of overarching divisiveness we have in parliament, as if a majority gives you the right to, you know, do anything you like it, however you like it.
08:58The election commission has come in for a lot of question marks.
09:01And, you know, you can always have a debate that this is all wrong and the election commission is being attacked.
09:05But today, the attitude of the election commission is as a competitor in the political scene, which should never be.
09:12It's an empire.
09:12So, you're talking about institutional elements of the constitution and non-institutional elements that you believe are under some kind of siege or threat.
09:22Some of which are basic structure features of this constitution.
09:26I'm reminded and I'm going to ask all my guests this.
09:28Nani Palkhiwala, legendary jurist, saying it is my firm conviction that it is not the constitution which has failed the people,
09:35but it is our chosen representatives who have failed the constitution.
09:39So, we have a first class document which has been over the years eroded, including by your party in the 1975 emergency, dare I remind you, all of which have led at some way to an assault on the constitution.
09:53So, while you tell me about democratic rights today and institutional infirmities today, there will be those who will say those infirmities also existed when Congress governments were in power.
10:02Every government has in some way or the other assaulted the constitution.
10:07Absolutely.
10:08Nobody can say that anybody is completely blemishless.
10:12But let me tell you, is this not water, water, water, water?
10:16So, something happened in 1977, which may be considered a constitutional aberration.
10:22Though constitutional aberration is an oxymoron, but let's take that.
10:26Does it have any charter or license for what to do today?
10:29What kind of water, water, water is this?
10:31Why should you take you back to then?
10:33We are concerned with here and now.
10:35We are concerned at least with 2014 to 2025, a clear decade.
10:39Is it an answer to say that something wrong happened then?
10:41Of course wrongs must have happened.
10:43But today, I have no hesitation in saying that the degree also, that is one is that argument of water boundary,
10:49the other is the degree.
10:51The degree, the consistent degree, the invariable degree, the unvarying degree of several of these institutions,
10:58starting from the non-institutional pillars of fraternity and secularism and federalism, has been consistently eroding.
11:05With due regard, should they not be protected by the profession which you are a part of, the judiciary?
11:10What do you think we do every day?
11:11If there are these transgressions taking place of the constitution, if there is a violation of the fundamental rights of the individual,
11:16I would have presumed that is where the Supreme Court is supposed to step in.
11:20Has it done what it should do?
11:21What do you think we do every day, Rajdeep?
11:24The court does it and we do it as lawyers.
11:26But, but, there is an important point to be remembered.
11:30Adjudication through courts is individuated.
11:34It is not the class mass for the whole nation as a whole.
11:37So you have a problem, you go to court, there's a notice, there's a reply, there's a rejoinder,
11:41and maybe you get relief, maybe you don't get relief.
11:44That is not a satisfactory way to turn to the court saying, why are you not the balm for all our ills?
11:52I'm sorry, I'm sorry sir, the courts are, my argument is the courts have not done enough to protect the fundamental rights of citizens.
11:58When, when article 370 was abrogated and many Kashmiris spent years in jail, what happened to habeas corpus petitions?
12:05They were kept pending for years.
12:07What happens to the whole doctrine of bail not jail?
12:10So let's be honest, you know, you, we can blame parliament and the government in power,
12:15but what about the institutions that run this country, including the judiciary or indeed the media?
12:20So, so the answer, the honest, the honest answer, Rajdeep, is that you are only very partially right.
12:26I disagree to about 67 to 70 percent with your remark, but yes, you are right to 30 odd percent,
12:32because the courts are ultimately, you are right about the fact that the courts may not have stood us in good stead in every case,
12:39maybe 25, 30 percent. But if we did not have the bulwark of the judiciary,
12:44the whatever protection you have against erosion of these pillars, institutional non, would be rampant.
12:51Today, if there is a protection, maybe lesser than it should be.
12:54You are right. Individual judges give us sermons and give the right judgments on bail, not jail.
12:59Individual aberrations equally nullify those sermons.
13:03So those are aberrations. But on the whole, the judiciary has, I would say, stood us in good stead
13:08to a very large percentage. Is India's constitutional democracy in recession, sir?
13:14Do you believe it's in recession? Are we heading towards an electoral autocracy?
13:18Or is that fear mongering? Because I hear these words mentioned by our opposition leaders.
13:22We are an electoral autocracy. Democracy is in recession. Not only constitution,
13:27secularism is in recession, federalism is in recession.
13:30As I said, I hate to use binaries because all binaries are generalizations and all generalizations
13:35are untrue. But let me tell you that clearly the degree of erosion of these institutional and
13:42non-institutional values, the degree of erosion of the institutions, the degree is much higher now
13:50in the last 10 years than it has ever been. And it's been consistent. It's not a temporary
13:55constitutional aberration like the emergency. It's consistently eroding.
14:00Well, the solution is to realize that majority is not the answer and a license to do everything.
14:08On the contrary, the constitution is created precisely for being anti-majoritarian.
14:13There'd be no need for a constitution if the majority was to prevail.
14:18Of course, the majority must govern. But the whole idea of creating a constitution in the first
14:23place is to be anti-majoritarian in so many areas. Religious rights…
14:27So, you're making a distinction between majority and majoritarian. Getting a parliamentary
14:31majority does not allow you to become a majoritarian government?
14:34Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely.
14:36Okay. Let me leave it there. Dr. Singhvi, as always, I appreciate your taking the time off on this
14:43very important debate. A majority government cannot lead to a majoritarian outlook to the constitution.
14:50Every individual must have equal rights. Let's then turn to the other point of view. Mahesh Jaitpalani
14:55now, another senior lawyer. And of course, he's been with the BJP for years joining me. I appreciate your
15:01joining us, Mr. Jaitpalani. How do you see this debate between those who say today constitution is in danger,
15:09and those who are saying the constitution is the sentinel of our democracy, we should celebrate our constitution?
15:19Well, I don't think the constitution has really ever been in danger except during that brief period during
15:24the emergency. But, you know, I mean, people may have nuanced differences about
15:33how institutions are performing their duty, whether they're performing their duty well or not,
15:39or at all, is possibly a subject matter of debate. But the constitution by and large has took the test of
15:48time. In fact, if you ask me, Rajdeep, its very existence instills in people the idea of popular
16:00sovereignty. So the fact that you had the people of this country, right, once overturn or overthrow a
16:11government that subverted the constitution. And secondly, that we have periodic elections every time,
16:17which, by and large, are fair and free. I know there's the odd carping about EVMs, which is now
16:23buried, and you know, then about the new SIR and all that. But by and large, I think the constitution
16:30itself has given people a sense of their own power. And that, for that very reason, I think it survived
16:36the test of time. You're saying the constitution has given people a sense of their own power. Let me
16:41challenge you on that by saying there are those who believe the institutions of our democracy,
16:46under the guise of the constitution have been captured by whoever is in power, and particularly
16:51by all powerful governments like the one we have now. And these captured institutions, whether they're
16:57the election commission or an enforcement directorate, all of them become subservient to those in power.
17:02And that's where the Savidhan is in danger. That's when people's rights are in danger. Do you agree or not?
17:08Well, I don't know. See, if you're saying that the criticism is that people who should be manning
17:20institutions more independently are, in fact, becoming more subservient, there may be an element
17:26of truth in that. There may be an element of truth in that. You know, I mean, I suppose when you talk
17:34about subservience and capture and all that, you're really talking about the judiciary, right? You're really
17:40talking about the judiciary, because the judiciary is supposed to be the empire between compliance and
17:46transgressions of the constitution. Sir, Mr. Jaitpalani, the judiciary is supposed to be the empire
17:53and supposed to protect our fundamental rights. But I'll tell you, yesterday, I interviewed Justice
17:57Gawai, former Chief Justice, who just retired. And he said firmly that this country must be run on rule
18:03of law and not on rule of bulldozer. And then I asked him, why is it then that bulldozers are still
18:08allowed to be used to demolish houses without due process? And he said, that's a question you should ask
18:13to those who are meant to implement the laws, effectively passing the buck on to governments
18:18and the executive, the elected representatives, who are not doing their function in implementing
18:23the laws as laid down by the constitution, the rights and by the Supreme Court.
18:29But look, first of all, let me tell you, this is a aspect, perhaps, of sometimes
18:35overzealous executive action. All right, that's an aspect. But that doesn't define the, you know,
18:44in the constitution, the operation of the constitution covers a much wider canvas in this
18:50whole country. Right. And essentially, what it is really a charter, it is really a charter for
18:57responsible government. Right. And if government seems to be responsible, the constitution is,
19:05you know, is premised on the principle, on the principle that at the end of five years,
19:12right, if you are dissatisfied, then popular sovereignty at the polls
19:19has a right to, if there is constitutional overreach, to remove those who are guilty of that overreach.
19:25Sir, sir, but, you know, do we have a level playing field in what you call free and fair elections?
19:33Given the massive use of money power, the massive use or abuse of state power, the alleged misuse of
19:38agencies like the enforcement directorate. So you have a free and fair election and constitutional democracy
19:45in name, but is it free and fair in reality 76 years later?
19:50I believe it's free and fair in reality. And look, there's no test. If somebody has an opinion,
20:02right, unsupported by any evidence, then, you know, one can't, one can't, there's no argument here.
20:08We are not, there cannot be a rational debate, right? It has been tried and tested. As I pointed out,
20:15first, EVMs were questioned, right? Now it's this, you know, vote theory business that's going on.
20:23But let me tell you, there's no evidence, A, if there has never been any evidence put forward,
20:29right? I mean, file an election petition, give us instances of that. And I'm with you. I think that's,
20:34I mean, that's a test of a democracy, a fair and free election. The litmus test is a fair and free
20:39election. But if you just cop about it all the time, right, you are actually doing a great disservice
20:44for the own democracy, which you are a part of. You participate in elections and predetermined
20:49from the very outset, you say this is a big result, then don't participate.
20:53Mr. Jaitmalani, let me raise another contentious issue. Are minority rights protected? Ambedkar spoke
21:00of fraternity, equality, and liberty as the centerpiece of his, of his constitutional vision.
21:09Do you believe that today minority rights in this country are adequately protected in our
21:14constitution? Or is the flaw or fault lies with those who implement them? Because Nani Palkhiwala,
21:19I come back to it, said it's not the constitution that has failed the people, but the electorate
21:23representatives who have failed the constitution. Do you agree that on concepts like secularism,
21:28fraternity, minority rights, we have failed?
21:31Mr. Jaitmalani, he did say that, and to a large extent, yes. But Nani Palkhiwala was not talking at a
21:40time when Hindutva, right, was a predominant doctrine, right? So I don't know what he had in mind,
21:48but certainly I think he was talking more about curtailing of freedoms. He was a champion of individual
21:55liberty and so on and so forth. So I think his perspective came from there.
21:59But sir, it's those individual liberties one fears that are still compromised. You're a lawyer,
22:04you know, a respected senior lawyer. How even the basic principle of bail not jail,
22:10as Krishna Iyer said it out, is getting reversed. Individual liberties are being compromised. People
22:16spend years in jail without a trial, without access to a fair trial. Don't you believe all of
22:21this undermines the constitution? Let me put it even more directly. As a senior constitutional lawyer
22:27who's appeared for the government also at times, can you firmly today put your hand on your heart,
22:32sir, and say that the soul and spirit of the constitution, as drafted by Dr. Ambedkar,
22:37is perfectly safe in today's India? Put your hand on your heart.
22:40I can put my hand on my heart and say with conviction that all democracies and all constitutional
22:50democracies in general have severe imperfections. But it still means that while it's an imperfect
22:59form of government, it is still the best form of government. Razit, can I just ask you a counter
23:04question? I don't like to do that normally. What is a better system of government than that which we have?
23:11And let me tell you, if there are men who fail that constitutional system in our country,
23:16there are equally more men who do it in other countries. Actually, if you ask me today,
23:21we are a much better functioning democracy than both the UK and the US.
23:26You're saying that we are a better democracy, constitutional democracy than the US and the
23:31UK. It's a big claim you're making. You're claiming Indian democracy is more effective than
23:35in the United Kingdom and the US, right?
23:38Yes, yes. Because let me tell you something. There are two things that are happening overseas.
23:46One is there is tampering with the judiciary to a bigger scale than here.
23:51Actually, the system permits it because any party in power actually has the advantage of fixing the
24:01final court with their own nominees, that is the US Supreme Court. So that's one aspect.
24:08The second aspect is, right, that we have a more robust, we have a more robust electoral system than anybody else.
24:16Sir, you know, Mr. Jaitmalani, we may have a more robust electoral system, but I would contend we don't
24:22have enough checks and balances within that system, whether it's the nature of our policing, whether it's
24:27the nature of our judiciary at different levels, which is accused, incidentally, of having got compromised,
24:33not independent enough, whether it is the fact that the executive has become more dictatorial and
24:38authoritarian, whether it's the legislature, which many believe is reduced to a notice board, whether it's
24:42the media, which is seen by many to have been captured. Mr. Jaitmalani, you tell me, where is the real
24:48pushback in our system? Where are the checks and balances that are there in the United States or
24:53possibly even in the United Kingdom? What great checks and balances have you had in the United
25:02Kingdom? I mean, in the United States, you've had a president, ex-president, who has pardoned both
25:09himself and his entire family. That's never happened. That kind of self-interested nepotism
25:18has never taken place in this country. So the judiciary there has been a party to it. They've
25:25not, they've not, I, I, I, till today, I don't know whether you can sanction, whether the US
25:31judiciary can go into the question of partnering, right? But it certainly hasn't done anything to
25:37stop this very, very blatant abuse, the most blatant abuse. So what you're saying, Mr. Jaitmalani,
25:43we have a first rate constitution. You believe that the dangers are exaggerated, but at the same
25:48time, you do accept that we need to see stronger institutions that are more robust. Am I broadly
25:52correct?
25:55Yes, substantially more robust. Let me, let me add an adjective and say that, yes, I go to that extent,
26:02that we are still a far cry from being at least a pretty good democracy, right? We are, we are,
26:10we are among the top few democracies in the world today, right? And I pride myself, I pride India,
26:15I take pride in the fact that I'm an Indian and right, I can criticize people sometimes, of course,
26:20you're right, that the police will come down at the, at the behest of some politician and crack down on
26:26you. But those are instances by and large, which country, which country do you have a leader,
26:31which can incessantly going on saying things like Chaukidar Chor Hai, vote Chohi. I mean, you,
26:37you've not only, you've not only put unproven charges or unsubstantiated charges against a top leader of
26:43this country, but you fail to come with evidence against, against a systemic, what you allege is a
26:48systemic abuse. So, so let me ask you in conclusion very quickly, do you really believe there's enough
26:53space in Indian democracy for true dissent? Yes, I think that enough space for dissent,
27:01but dissenters will always feel, right, until they come to power, that this system is not perfect.
27:08Mahesh Jett Malani, for joining me on the show today, I appreciate you joining me. You seem to
27:12suggest that Samvidan khatre mein nahi hai, and you seem to believe therefore that we are still a strong
27:19and robust democracy. Free and fair elections are an intrinsic part of it. Whether they are free and
27:24fair, I leave to viewers today. Thank you very much, Mahesh Jett Malani. Let's move on now to the next
27:29guest on the Constitution Day Debate. And our next expert constitutional voice on this special
27:36constitutional day is Harish Salve, former Solicitor General of the country. Appreciate your joining us here,
27:44Mr. Salve. This debate that I've ignited today, the opposition saying Samvidan khatre mein hain,
27:50the government saying this is a day to celebrate our constitutional democracy. Do you believe
27:55the Constitution has served India well over the last seven decades and a half or are there infirmities
28:01in the way the Constitution is actually being implemented by the executive in particular?
28:07Radhi, there are two questions which shouldn't be conflated. The Constitution has served us well.
28:16The answer is an unequivocal yes. Have we served the Constitution well at all times? Questionable.
28:23What do you mean by we? Because I used this quote earlier of Nani Palkhiwala, the great jurist who said,
28:31uh, it is not, uh, we have a first-rate Constitution, but it is the people who have in a sense failed
28:38the Constitution or rather the elected representatives who failed the Constitution.
28:43Of course, when emergency was declared in 1975, it was not the failing of the Constitution. Every
28:50constitution has provisions to deal with emergencies. Now, if we declare a phony emergency,
28:57it's we who are failing the Constitution. It's not that the Constitution is failing us.
29:05The Constitution is meant to accommodate all kinds of thinking.
29:12You can have leftist leaning, rightist leaning, you can have different definitions of government,
29:21and it is for good reason that the framers of the Constitution didn't add controversial
29:26and ambiguous words like secular and socialist and all this in the preamble. And I've personally
29:34always been a trenchant critic of these amendments. And I don't know whether you read, if you read Mr.
29:40Palkhiwala's speech, he was a trenchant critic of the amendment to the preamble also. And nobody can
29:45doubt his commitment to constitutional values. Right. So have we served the Constitution well?
29:53I must say we are 75. India is 75. We've changed so many. In two recent lectures, I did a little
30:04research and found out we have changed 15 prime ministers using a ballot. We had 15 prime ministers,
30:10I think, in the last 75 years. We've changed governments. We've changed from all complexions
30:16of government. We had Congress-dominated majority governments. We had coalition governments. Now you
30:22have a BJP-dominated majority government. You've had majoritarian governments. You've had Rajiv Gandhi,
30:29I think he had possibly the largest. That's right. And the Constitution accommodates all of this.
30:42The fear, Mr. Salvez, are we now conflating the fact that we have elections every five years,
30:48prime ministers across parties are elected with the criticism that slowly but surely we are becoming an
30:55electoral autocracy where fundamental rights of the citizens get undermined, where it's no longer a
31:02level playing field when it comes to Indian democracy. Are we an elected autocracy? Do you
31:09believe that we are veering towards that? Is there a democratic recession that you see?
31:13Sir, first of all, the Constitution, no constitution in the world, unfortunately, which provides for
31:20elected government as a level playing field. Do all the people who contest elections, and there's so much
31:28talent out there which never makes it to parliament, because you don't have a level playing field. There are
31:34certain things inherent to an electoral democracy. Do you think every American has equal right to become
31:41president of America? In theory, yes. In practice, no. Do you think everybody in the United Kingdom,
31:47the United Kingdom is much smaller with a much larger number of MPs, your cost outlay is much lesser?
31:53I have for decades been an advocate of state funding of elections, and when I say state funding of
31:59elections, you don't necessarily have to write checks. You can make common facilities available, which the
32:05election commission can disburse, etc., etc. That's a debate for another day. But we don't want to talk about that,
32:10because everybody, when he is in government, doesn't want to create a level playing field. You realize the
32:16unevenness of the field only when you are on the wrong side of the field.
32:19Sir, but the concept of elections is only one part of the constitution. It's about ensuring that the
32:25fundamental rights of citizens are protected. Concepts that Ambedkar put out of equality,
32:31liberty, fraternity. Do you believe those concepts are really being observed in letter and spirit
32:37by indeed the lawmakers or indeed the law of this country, the judges of this country? Or are there
32:45serious lacuna there? Well, in theory, the constitutional rights are all in place.
32:52And after the Koelo judgment, we have locked in the constitutional rights. They cannot even be amending.
32:58How are the constitutional rights to be protected? The one area and the one area where the judiciary has,
33:03in one sense, supremacy is enforcement of constitutional rights. That is why Ambedkar
33:09did something very unusual for the Indian constitution. A, he expressly conferred the power of judicial
33:15review of legislation. We didn't have to invent it like the Americans did in Marbury and Paris.
33:20Our courts have a right to strike down legislation if it violates fundamental rights. That is a very
33:25important step. And two, the right to move the Supreme Court itself was made a fundamental right in article 32.
33:34So, by which the signal of the constitution was, when it comes to constitutionally defined fundamental
33:41rights, the judiciary is the last word. And I must say, especially post-Krishna, the development of our
33:51fundamental rights jurisprudence is a marvel. And the world respects for what our courts have
33:57developed, our system. We've read in gender justice, we've read in due process, we've read in
34:03the right to privacy and so on and so forth. But if you find today that there is an overall feeling
34:08that the Supreme Court is failing to protect the constitution, we need to go back and see.
34:12And there is a lot which is troubling the judiciary today.
34:15So, what is the biggest challenge? You know, in conclusion, what according to you is the biggest
34:20challenge in a way that will, for those who would like to see the letter and the spirit of the
34:27constitution actually translate into concrete action on the ground?
34:31See, first of all, I think our political system needs to be a little more responsible.
34:38If the last word on the constitutional rights has been given to the judiciary, you cannot say I,
34:46as a politician, will define what is my understanding of the fundamental right. And if the Supreme Court
34:51doesn't agree with me, the system doesn't work. Today, we've reached either you're with us or you're with
34:56them kind of an attitude in public life. Either it's my truth and your truth. If you agree with me,
35:02you're a great judiciary. If you don't agree with me, you're a subservient judiciary. Now,
35:06that's not the way for approaching, at least for senior people in public life, for approaching.
35:13Yes, you can criticize the judgment saying, here are the intellectual flaws in this judgment.
35:20And we have a debate. Democracy is all about many voices. Democracy is all about debate. And the
35:27Supreme Court, least of all, should be about criticism. Least of all. Because the Supreme Court is the
35:34last word of the law. And they have to be criticized. Their judgments have to be criticized,
35:38if you find them wrong. Not on a broad base saying, oh, I'm so sorry, Supreme Court has decided against
35:44me. But go to the judgment and say, this is where they've gone. I say, for example, the Supreme Court
35:49judgment, which upheld some draconian powers of the enforcement directorate, is a disaster.
35:55I say so. And I can give you very strong, it's a debate for another day. But I can give you strong
36:02intellectual reasons. Where the Supreme Court has gone wrong. Not because I don't like the face of the
36:06judge. But because I say, this is where the Supreme Court has gone intellectually wrong.
36:09Bail cases where the Supreme Court has denied bail. I've always said, where did this drift happen?
36:16From Krishna Iyer's bail, not jail. Where have we gone into jail, not bail?
36:21So that's exactly where, you know, you hit the nail in the sense in that last answer. What you're calling
36:28for is at least some element of introspection amidst the celebration of Constitution Day. Am I correct?
36:33Of course, see, I celebrate my Constitution because it calls for introspection every single day.
36:42Since you started by quoting my guru, let me tell you what he always said. He used to always say,
36:48democracy is a ceaseless endeavor. It's not a safe harbor. Democracy means debate all the time.
36:57Very, very, you know, very fascinatingly put there. And I think quoting Nani Palkhiwala is a nice way
37:06on this Constitution Day to remember one of our foremost jurists. And he in a sense sends out a
37:12message to all of us that we have to continue to be sentinels in a way to ensure that our Constitution
37:19is not a place very quickly. I will end with only one thing. Only one last thing. There's only one time
37:24when the Constitution was seriously under threat. And that was 1975. And the court catapulted.
37:31Who saved democracy? You and me and our previous generation saved democracy. Ultimately, even the
37:39political system knew this was unsustainable in India. Till that fire of democracy burns in your heart,
37:45burns in my heart and burns in the heart of our fellow Indians, our Constitution is safe.
37:51Okay. Hari Salve, always a pleasure talking to you. Thank you so much for joining me here on the
37:56news today. Thank you.
38:00Interesting to get three different voices without the noise. That's what we try to do now on the news
38:06today. Okay, let me turn from a story which today is my Get Real India story. Stories that go beyond
38:14the noise of prime time. A routine practice session has turned fatal in Haryana's Rotak,
38:20where a 16-year-old national level basketball player was crushed to death after a ring pole
38:26collapsed on the court. This comes just 48 hours after another teen boy died on the basketball court
38:33in Haryana's Badurgarh. This has raised serious questions over the Haryana government's commitment
38:39to safety maintenance and what happened to the unspent public funds. We talk about Kelo India,
38:46but this is Get Real India. Take a look.
38:49Death on the basketball court. 16-year-old Hardik Rathi was practicing routine moves and trying to hang
39:07from the ring when the pole broke, crushing him. The national level player was rushed to a hospital in
39:14Haryana and Rotak, but he succumbed to injuries. The accident took place in Lakhan Majra village on
39:20Wednesday morning.
39:20Hardik had won medals in several national events. The basketball court where the incident took place
39:46was built on panchayat land 15 years ago. Congress MP Dipender Singh Huda had initiated the work by
39:53donating 20 lakh rupees. The Haryana government opened a sports nursery which produced 15 international
40:00level basketball players. In 2023, Dipender Huda sanctioned over 18 lakh rupees from his MP funds in
40:09two installments, but this money remains unspent. The district sports department and the district
40:15panchayat development department are responsible for the club's functioning. The state government has
40:20suspended a district level sports official.
40:22The state government has not been made a sense of fave for the personnel and state government also
40:26has been built in 11 years. The state of the city, the state of the state government has been
40:31made on a stage for sure. We are built in the government as well. The state of the state is not
40:33made a budget. That with the federal government and the government has been built on a
40:34balance in the state. The state government has been made to make a difference. We have
40:40A similar accident took place at Shaheed Brigade Hoshyar Singh Stadium
41:09in Bahadurgarh on Sunday.
41:11Fifteen-year-old Amman died after the pole collapsed on him.
41:16The two deaths on the basketball court within a week have stunned Rotak.
41:22The sports department has called a meeting of all district officials on Friday
41:26to discuss maintenance of sports centres.
41:30With Kamaljeet Sandhu and Surendar Singh, Bureau Report, India Today.
41:35Test cricket in India has plunged to another low
41:41as the visiting South African team literally brought India to its knees
41:45while completing a 2-0 series whitewash
41:48and the worst ever test defeat that India suffered by a mammoth 408 runs.
41:53In 12 months, this is the second instance of an Indian team being whitewashed on home turf,
41:59which has raised several questions over the team management
42:02and yes, over the team coach, Gautam Gambhir and indeed the players themselves.
42:09A little while ago, I spoke to Sunil Gavaskar.
42:12Let's go straight to him.
42:18And joining me now is a very special guest.
42:21The legendary one and only Sunil Gavaskar joins us.
42:24I appreciate you joining us, Mr. Gavaskar.
42:26Would I be right in saying that this is a new low for Indian test cricket?
42:30Losing to South Africa by 408 runs on the back of that defeat in Kolkata,
42:36losing three tests at home against New Zealand last year.
42:39It seems that Indian test cricket is at a low point.
42:43Am I right?
42:45Well, first and foremost, a disclaimer.
42:46I was in Muddan Ali over the last five, six days for the undead birthday anniversary celebrations
42:52of Sri Sattva Sai Baba.
42:54So I didn't watch a single ball for what happened in Guhatli.
42:58So really don't know what happened, except in getting to know before I boarded the flight
43:03to Mumbai that India had lost the game by the biggest margin they ever had.
43:10But I think we need to remember that last year, losing 3-0 to New Zealand for me was perhaps
43:18even worse than losing to the world champions.
43:24Today, South Africa are the world champions.
43:27And to lose to them is not great, of course.
43:34But I don't think it's the lowest point.
43:35I think the lowest point was losing all three test matches to New Zealand last year.
43:40But is there something structurally wrong when you lose five test matches in a row
43:45to two of the Sena teams, South Africa and New Zealand?
43:49I mean, for years, we never lost at home.
43:51So there seems to be something that's gone badly wrong.
43:55Can you put a finger at it?
43:57More than things going badly wrong from the Indian point of view,
44:00I think it's the preparation of both these teams that needs to be allotted.
44:05Because if you had a look at what New Zealand had done before they came to India,
44:10they played a series in Sri Lanka.
44:12So they got used to the weather conditions.
44:14They got used to the pitches over there.
44:17And so did the South Africans.
44:19They went to Pakistan in October, just before they came to India.
44:24I think they had a little bit of a break before they came to India.
44:27And I think the A-team was in India playing against the India A-team.
44:32So some of them were prepared, who then came on to play in the test matches.
44:38So their preparation, I think, was a lot more thorough than a lot of other teams.
44:43A lot of other teams just come to India and then find it difficult.
44:46But both these teams did their preparations really well.
44:49But by contrast, our preparations were nowhere near as good.
44:53Some of our players were playing an ODI tournament in Australia.
44:56Maybe they should have had a camp or played some matches leading up to this on Indian turning wickets.
45:02I mean, it's one thing the foreign team is preparing well.
45:05But we don't seem to get our act together, to be very honest.
45:10Yes, I think that is the way the market forces are.
45:14The market forces at the moment mean that, you know, India is a team that is, you know,
45:21asked to be in other countries just about every year, because that boosts their TV revenue.
45:26See, last year, India played five test matches in Australia.
45:30And what happens this year again, we go to Australia.
45:33In the middle of our season, I think that is the thing that India needs to be very strong about,
45:38that Australia doesn't go anywhere during their season.
45:40India should also say to other teams, look, buddies, our season is more important.
45:46You want to play against us, you come to India.
45:49That is what India needs to do.
45:50Playing this, you know, one-day series, playing this one-day series of T20 series in Australia,
45:56between two test series didn't make any sense.
45:58But that was a bilateral arrangement that had to be, you know, adhered to.
46:04But isn't that the problem, Mr. Gavaskar, that we seem to be focusing excessively on white ball cricket,
46:11on IPL, instead of giving test cricket the true importance it deserves?
46:16Red ball and white ball cricket are two completely different sports now.
46:21No, no, they may be.
46:22But here, I think it was the bilateral agreement.
46:24We could have, for example, had the Australia one-day series, which in my view was really nothing.
46:30Yes, the T20, because we have a T20 World Cup coming up, a T20 series makes sense.
46:36But playing those three one-day games didn't really make any sense.
46:39Because there's no one-day competition, international competition, ICC competition,
46:44for maybe two years, since 2027.
46:47So we didn't have to do that.
46:49But, so if you had had that for us...
46:52Or at least maybe pick...
46:53Sure, or at least maybe pick a very different team.
46:56The point I'm getting at is, today, a lot of people are venting on Gautam Gambhir, Mr. Gavaskar.
47:01That the coach of the team, according to them, should be held accountable.
47:06They virtually are accusing him of driving away some of the older players,
47:10the Kohli's, the Rohit Sharma's, the Ashwin's.
47:13And that he's chopping and changing, bringing in bits and pieces, all-rounders,
47:17shuffling the batting order, not ensuring stability.
47:20How do you respond?
47:21Is Gautam Gambhir the problem?
47:22He's a coach.
47:27The coach can prepare a team.
47:28The coach can tell, you know, guide with his experience.
47:32But it's out there in the middle that the players have to deliver.
47:36Now, to those who are asking, you know, for him to be held accountable,
47:41my question, counter-question is,
47:44what did you do when India won the Champions Trophy under him?
47:47What did you do when India won the Asia Cup under him?
47:51Did you say then, you're asking for his sacking now,
47:55did you say then that he should be given an extended contract,
47:58a contract for life for one-day cricket and for T20 cricket?
48:03You didn't say that.
48:04So, it's only when a team doesn't do well, you look at the coach.
48:08So, when the team loses...
48:09That's a separate game, Mr. Gavaskar.
48:10Sorry to intervene.
48:11That's a separate game.
48:12White ball versus red ball.
48:13Red ball has a different coach and white ball has a different coach.
48:17No, not necessarily.
48:18Not necessarily.
48:20You have coaches, for example,
48:21Lyndon McCallum is the coach for all three formats for England.
48:26A lot of countries have a coach which is there for all formats.
48:29But we tend to only look and point a finger at somebody when the team has lost.
48:35You're not prepared to give him credit.
48:36If you're not prepared to give him credit for the Champions Trophy and the Asian Cup win,
48:40then please tell me why you want to blame him.
48:44For the team out there, on that 22 yards, not doing well, why are you blaming him?
48:51So, what's the road ahead?
48:53I mean, is it that, as you then say, in a couple of months, there's the T20 World Cup.
48:57We could well win that.
48:58We are the best white ball team.
49:00Then there will be the IPL.
49:02And everyone will forget about our test cricket.
49:04Is there a real serious problem?
49:06I come back to it.
49:07That we don't take this five-day format seriously enough.
49:10All the focus, all the attention is winning white ball tournaments.
49:14And that is affecting technique.
49:16It's affecting choice of teams.
49:18Players are being picked on their IPL form.
49:20Instead of being picked on their long-format form.
49:23No, I disagree.
49:24I don't think India is not taking test cricket seriously.
49:27India is taking all formats of the game seriously.
49:30It's just that, at the one-day level, the white ball game,
49:34we are a lot, lot better than in the red ball game.
49:38But as we saw in England recently,
49:41the way we batted, the way we bowled,
49:43every way that we did, we were absolutely brilliant.
49:47And I think, you know, that is the key.
49:49The key is to be able to play a lot of this
49:52before you go and play a test series.
49:56Historically, India starts a series by losing.
50:01Then, as they get used to the conditions,
50:03they start to play better.
50:04That's been the case for donkey's years now.
50:07And I think that is what we need to do in the sense that we need to go out and play a lot more in that country where we are going.
50:14We play maybe three-day matches, maybe a four-day game and not intra-squad game.
50:19Intra-squad game, the bowlers are not, your fast bowlers are not really going to go flat out.
50:23One, for fear of injuring one of your own batters and for fear of, you know, spending too much before they are ready for the test match.
50:31So, you wouldn't make, Mr. Gavaskar, you would not make wholesale changes in this team.
50:38You are saying the players are good enough.
50:41They just need to be better prepared.
50:42Am I correct?
50:43Yes, I think they need to be better prepared.
50:46That's the most important thing.
50:48You've got to give them the chance to be better prepared for test match cricket.
50:53And so, therefore, your scheduling has to be right.
50:56I was talking about the scheduling of what New Zealand did last year, going to Sri Lanka and then coming to India.
51:00What South Africa did just now, going to Pakistan and then coming to India.
51:04So, I think the scheduling is a very, very important aspect.
51:07And I think it's over here that you have to be looking at what is good for Indian cricket and not looking what is good for somebody else's coffers.
51:19So, in conclusion, to all those who are outraging today and saying sack the coach, sack the players, bring in wholesale changes, you're saying relax.
51:30Just change the way we prepare.
51:32I'm not saying relax because, you know, no defeat is palatable, no defeat is palatable.
51:38I'm not saying relax.
51:39I'm just saying that, you know, you need to do a proper, a thorough sort of, you know, post-mortem as to the areas that you need to strengthen at the test level.
51:50That is something that you need to do.
51:53And for that, I think...
51:54Can I ask you...
51:54Yes, go ahead.
51:57You need to bring in an outside perspective.
52:00Not within that, you know, that, you know, the confines of the selection committee and the coaching staff and the team.
52:09You need to bring people who are connected with the game but who are just outside, who will bring another perspective.
52:15Take a Ravi Shastri, for example.
52:17Take a Rahul Dravid.
52:18Your two earlier coaches.
52:19Take a Daniel Kumbhle.
52:20Take a Saurav Ganguly.
52:22Get them together.
52:23Sachin Thendulkar.
52:23Now, why can't five, six of you, why can't five, six of you do a review of the state of Indian cricket and give a report that is made public?
52:35Because these people who I mentioned have just finished playing cricket, retired only about five, eight, ten years ago.
52:44And they are better, worse with that than I who retired 30 years ago.
52:49And that's why I named these people.
52:51To take them, sit with them and formulate for the next five years what Indian cricket should be doing.
52:57What, you play one-day cricket, you have a World Cup coming up, then focus on the one-day 50-overs game.
53:04How you focus, how you organize your domestic international tour and your overseas international tour.
53:10All that you need to do.
53:12First and foremost, we all, I'm here for a long time now.
53:17I have no idea who takes cricketing calls in the BCCI.
53:21Who takes these cricketing calls in the BCCI?
53:23Nobody knows.
53:24And which is the reason, I think, you know, I'm suggesting these names.
53:29Because these names are wonderful cricketers who played with pride for their country.
53:34They brought glory to the country as players and coaches.
53:37And their inputs will be invaluable.
53:40I might have missed the name here and there.
53:42So please forgive me.
53:43But I think these are a few names that you take.
53:46And you sit with Gautam Gambhir and the selection committee.
53:50Then, as a group, eight, ten people come together.
53:54You will be able to find out, you know, what is the best way forward.
53:57I think that's a great suggestion.
54:00I'm adding your name to that list and creating a vision document that you need to prepare for Indian cricket.
54:05But it's the need of the hour.
54:06And I like the idea that you need some external voices to come in, perhaps, and remove the players and the coaches from the echo chambers that they may otherwise live in.
54:16Indian cricket, in that sense, needs a thorough review.
54:19And I'm glad that you've suggested that, Mr. Gavaskar.
54:22Stay well, as always.
54:23And thank you very much for joining me.
54:27Okay, now, India losing that test match by its highest ever margin is the bad news of the day.
54:34I want to end today, though, with the good news of the day.
54:37We always try and bring you some good news.
54:39Because India's blind women's team has just scripted history, defeating Nepal over the weekend by six wickets to lift the inaugural Blind Women's T20 World Cup.
54:49The women in blue went unbeaten through the tournament, a campaign defined by sheer grit, unshakable resilience, and remarkable skill.
54:58India's women blind cricketers doing us very proud.
55:02And guess what?
55:03I had the privilege of meeting them in our studios and speaking to them.
55:07I leave you with that special conversation.
55:09Listen in to them and stay well.
55:12Take a look.
55:14It is wonderful to have you.
55:16Captain here.
55:17I am all-rounder, sir.
55:22You are all-rounder and you are from Karnataka.
55:24Yes, sir.
55:24And the vice-captain, Ganga, you are from?
55:27Maharashtra.
55:28Maharashtra.
55:29Very good.
55:29Maharashtra and Karnataka, two of my favorite states, captain and vice-captain.
55:34And with us is also Mahantes, who is the driving force of this entire tournament.
55:40Runs an organization called Samarthanam.
55:42That was wonderful work.
55:43You brought all the players to our studio.
55:45Big, proud moment for you.
55:48Yes, sir.
55:48I am equally honored.
55:50Always coming to India today and talking to you is a very, very proud moment.
55:55I am very happy my girls made India proud.
55:58Sixteen of them are here.
55:59They belong to nine different states.
56:01Nine different states.
56:02Which state has the largest representation?
56:05Odisha.
56:06Odisha.
56:07Oh, wow.
56:07Four girls, sir.
56:09Four girls from Odisha.
56:10Yes.
56:12And three from Madhya Pradesh, three from Karnataka, one each from Assam, Rajasthan, Maharashtra.
56:18And two from Madhya Pradesh, three from Madhya Pradesh, three from Madhya Pradesh.
56:21So, who are you defeated Australia?
56:24You defeated Australia from 200 runs.
56:25You defeated Australia from the last two runs.
56:26And in the final, you defeated Nepal.
56:29Who was the man of the tournament?
56:31Fula Sorain, sir.
56:33Where is Fula Sorain?
56:36Fula Sorain.
56:37Give her a big hand.
56:40Fula what do you do?
56:41Batting, bowling, everything you do.
56:43All-rounder.
56:44All-rounder.
56:45Today is the time of all-rounder.
56:47All-rounder.
56:48How difficult has it been to put this tournament together?
56:52There are many, many challenges, sir.
56:53So, when we decided to host a few years ago, it's a dream come true.
56:58You know our story, how hard it was.
57:00I kept talking to you about arrangements, getting the sponsorships, getting the teams, hosting in multi-countries, co-hosting.
57:10There were many challenges, but never say die spirit.
57:13Thanks to my team, Samarthanam, Kaby.
57:15Wonderful.
57:15I'm going to go and try and pick up this trophy of yours.
57:18And I'm going to now hand it over to the captain of the team.
57:24Once more, you get the trophy.
57:26Give them all a very big hand for what they've achieved.
57:28India's world champions, the first tournament for World Cup for the visually disabled.
57:36And they have done us proud.
57:37That's the good news of the day.
57:40Thanks for watching.
57:42Stay well, stay safe.
57:43Shubhraatri.
57:44Jain Namaskar.
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