- 1 week ago
Spencer Williams is the visionary CEO behind West Paw — the first Certified B Corp in the pet industry and one of the most respected purpose-driven manufacturers in the world. He transformed a small Montana pet toy company into a global brand centered on sustainability, innovation, employee culture, and the “quadruple bottom line”: people, pets, planet, and profits.
In this episode, Spencer reveals how mission-led leadership creates competitive advantage, how to innovate in a mature industry, and why long-term thinking is now the ultimate entrepreneurial superpower. This is a masterclass in building companies that last — and leading teams who love where they work.
What You’ll Learn
• Why purpose-driven leadership outperforms traditional growth models
• How to build an award-winning company culture people never want to leave
• The advantage of becoming a B Corp — and how it transforms your brand
• The innovation process behind West Paw’s sustainable products
• How to stay resilient through economic swings without sacrificing values
• Practical steps for scaling a mission-led business in any industry
• How the “quadruple bottom line” creates long-term competitive strength
About Spencer Williams
Spencer Williams is the CEO of West Paw, a pioneering pet products company known for sustainable manufacturing, innovative materials, and a deep commitment to values-based leadership. Under his guidance, West Paw became the first Certified B Corp in the pet industry and developed one of the most innovative recycling programs in the category. With more than 100 employees, West Paw continues to thrive through a commitment to culture, creativity, and conscious business practices.
Sponsors & Partners
• Imagine you’re a business owner relying on a dozen different software programs to run your company — each one more complicated than the last. Odoo solves that by bringing CRM, accounting, HR, marketing, inventory, and more into a single, simple, scalable platform. 👉 Streamline everything with Odoo at odoo.com.
• For sponsorship opportunities, email ad-sales@libsyn.com.
Resources & Links Mentioned
1 Connect with Spencer Williams: https://www.westpaw.com/
2 🎧 Listen on Apple: https://tonydurso.com/apple
3 🎧 Listen on Spotify: https://tonydurso.com/spotify
4 📧 Join the Newsletter: https://tonydurso.com/news
5 🎥 Watch the Video: https://tonydurso.com/videos
Tony’s Closing Words
Use this and let’s help you Move on YOUR Journey to Success!
Just Take Action. – Success awaits those who persevere and remain steadfast despite the odds. Sow good seeds, do good deeds and join me on the next episode.
In this episode, Spencer reveals how mission-led leadership creates competitive advantage, how to innovate in a mature industry, and why long-term thinking is now the ultimate entrepreneurial superpower. This is a masterclass in building companies that last — and leading teams who love where they work.
What You’ll Learn
• Why purpose-driven leadership outperforms traditional growth models
• How to build an award-winning company culture people never want to leave
• The advantage of becoming a B Corp — and how it transforms your brand
• The innovation process behind West Paw’s sustainable products
• How to stay resilient through economic swings without sacrificing values
• Practical steps for scaling a mission-led business in any industry
• How the “quadruple bottom line” creates long-term competitive strength
About Spencer Williams
Spencer Williams is the CEO of West Paw, a pioneering pet products company known for sustainable manufacturing, innovative materials, and a deep commitment to values-based leadership. Under his guidance, West Paw became the first Certified B Corp in the pet industry and developed one of the most innovative recycling programs in the category. With more than 100 employees, West Paw continues to thrive through a commitment to culture, creativity, and conscious business practices.
Sponsors & Partners
• Imagine you’re a business owner relying on a dozen different software programs to run your company — each one more complicated than the last. Odoo solves that by bringing CRM, accounting, HR, marketing, inventory, and more into a single, simple, scalable platform. 👉 Streamline everything with Odoo at odoo.com.
• For sponsorship opportunities, email ad-sales@libsyn.com.
Resources & Links Mentioned
1 Connect with Spencer Williams: https://www.westpaw.com/
2 🎧 Listen on Apple: https://tonydurso.com/apple
3 🎧 Listen on Spotify: https://tonydurso.com/spotify
4 📧 Join the Newsletter: https://tonydurso.com/news
5 🎥 Watch the Video: https://tonydurso.com/videos
Tony’s Closing Words
Use this and let’s help you Move on YOUR Journey to Success!
Just Take Action. – Success awaits those who persevere and remain steadfast despite the odds. Sow good seeds, do good deeds and join me on the next episode.
Category
🛠️
LifestyleTranscript
00:00My guest, Spencer, he took a small pet toy company in Montana and he turned it into West
00:06Paw.
00:06It's a globally recognized brand and it's the first certified B Corp in the pet industry.
00:13And I think dogs now, they have more and more studies that really affirm what humanity is
00:18known forever, is that companionship adds health and wellness to our entire lives.
00:30Imagine building a company that your customers love, your employees thrive in, and the world
00:41actually thanks you for.
00:43That's the West Paw story.
00:45Welcome back to the podcast.
00:46This episode is about more than business success.
00:50It's about redefining what success looks like.
00:54My guest, Spencer, he took a small pet toy company in Montana and he turned it into West
00:59Paw.
01:00It's a globally recognized brand and it's the first certified B Corp in the pet industry.
01:06Spencer's journey shows us how purpose and profits can work together, how culture can
01:11fuel growth, and how innovation can reshape even the most traditional industries.
01:17If you've ever wondered how to scale with impact, stand out in a crowded market, and stay resilient
01:23through the ups and downs, you're about to get a masterclass.
01:27Let's begin.
01:27Let's bring them on.
01:28Hi, Spencer.
01:29Welcome to the Tony D'Erso Show.
01:31Hi, Tony.
01:32Thank you so much.
01:33I'm glad to be with you today.
01:35It's an honor to have you.
01:37I love what you're doing with animals and we're going to get into that.
01:40And we're all looking forward to learning about what I consider creating joyful leadership.
01:46But before we kind of dive in, can we go over your backstory a little bit?
01:50How did it all start for you?
01:52What was your vision that made you go from where you were into a pet toy company?
01:57Well, that's a great place to start, Tony.
02:00I'm happy to share my story because it feels like a long time ago.
02:04It was 30 years ago.
02:04I was 23 and I was moving back to Montana.
02:07And my vision around this business was, how could I create jobs in manufacturing that have
02:12dignity?
02:12How could I, as an owner, help to grow a small company with a measurable impact in our community
02:18as those jobs grow?
02:20And ultimately, how can we create the best products for pets that are also really thoughtfully
02:27designed for the planet?
02:28And that is a big, big vision that we had.
02:33And I'm pleased when I look back, I think, you know, we've done that and we continue to
02:36do that every day.
02:38And the vision for us is to continue to grow this business so that those impacts that we
02:44want to have on people, pets, and the planet continue to grow as the years continue.
02:50I presume you weren't in the pet industry or the pet toy pet for pets industry.
02:59So how did you go from that into what you're doing now?
03:04Was there any particular, you know, philosophy or what do they call it?
03:10Mission statement or vision that said, hey, this is where I should be, you know?
03:14How did that all happen?
03:16Oh my gosh.
03:17That's another layer deep and I'd love to share because, you know, I grew up on a working
03:21ranch in Montana.
03:23My family homesteaded here generations ago.
03:26I'm a fifth generation Montanan.
03:28And it was really, you know, this idea when I grew up, we fixed a lot of fence.
03:32We fixed a lot of machinery.
03:33We were out with the animals.
03:34I was a very hands-on person.
03:36And I think, you know, being somebody who's also very dyslexic, I kind of see systems and
03:42I see things in three dimensions, but I also want to, I really want to touch things.
03:45I'm much more of a tactile person.
03:46And so I think this idea of like, I want to make something was always just part of my,
03:51even my childhood.
03:52I was inventing little things when I was a kid, getting into competitions with those.
03:57And even in high school, I had a little toy business with two of my great friends.
04:01And so just this idea of actual physical product always inspired me.
04:05And I think the big change for me was after college, for a year, I sold institutional research
04:12to money managers and traders on Wall Street.
04:15And the guy I worked for was very innovative with his business.
04:18It was very much a remote business in 1995, way ahead of its time.
04:22But Tony, I was, I was working in an industry I didn't love.
04:25And I was selling information to people who may or may not have used it.
04:30They may or may not have valued it.
04:32And I craved something tangible.
04:34I came back to the roots of my upbringing.
04:36I was like, can I make something?
04:38At the end of the day, the whole team here at Westpott can say, we helped make something.
04:43We made this and that passion burned deeply.
04:48And so when I was looking at moving back to Montana, I had a friend who said, gosh, you
04:54know what?
04:55There's a woman who's a great sewer of cat and dog toys and you love pets.
05:00You should go talk to her and see about her little business.
05:02And she was in fact, a wonderful sewer.
05:05And he was right.
05:06I loved pets.
05:07And my wife and I had just decided to get our first chocolate lab, you know, our first
05:11kid in the family, if you will.
05:13So it was just perfect.
05:14And things happened.
05:16One thing led to the next.
05:17I put a loan together, got that business, bought that business.
05:21It was very, very small.
05:23And I could learn by doing, which fit my learning style.
05:26And I jumped into the industry with both feet.
05:27You know, I didn't really know how big the industry would be, but I thought this can't
05:30be bad.
05:31Like pets are going to be part of people's lives forever.
05:34And this seems like an opportunity here.
05:36And without much more than that, I jumped in with both feet.
05:39That's quite something.
05:40Yeah, I'm a pet lover.
05:41I've had two pets in the past 30, 30 something years.
05:46One lived to, was American Eskimo lived to, I think 17.
05:52And then a white Akita.
05:54It's like four times bigger than the Eskimo.
05:56He lived to almost 14.
05:59So very different personalities.
06:02And I just, you know, I just love everything about pets.
06:05And now we have the neighbor dogs as our pets and, and bunnies and other things like that.
06:10But it's just, it's, there's a difference.
06:13And as a pet owner, you understand what I'm saying.
06:16You know, when you have a pet, there's a difference in, I guess, your personality or mindset to a degree.
06:24How do you, how do you explain that?
06:26Because it's just not that the person is different, but you're more, there's more, a more extension of you because you understand creatures and you have this, this compassion towards them.
06:38And I think that really helps in business relationships, in business, in family relationships and so forth else.
06:45You know, it's sort of like another dimension added to, to life.
06:50At least that's, that's my humble opinion.
06:52Yeah.
06:54Tony, I think you're really onto this because as a, as somebody who's had two wonderful dogs in your life, you understand the joy and the connection and the health we get from that because we're caring for another being, right?
07:06It's really amazing just to think that these dogs are, are so dependent on us, right?
07:11For their food, for their exercise, for their health and their health care.
07:15And it's just a beautiful thing, isn't it?
07:18To be able to give them that love and affection and in return, feel that same coming back.
07:23And I think it's, for me, that's why this business has been so fun is the people we attract in our company, generally speaking, have a love for animals.
07:32And as a team, we work really well together because we, we really look at how do we humanize business?
07:38How do we, how do we approach each other, not in a transactional sense, but, but really as people, just as we want to show up for our, our dogs as, as people and really make it a personal experience.
07:50And I think dogs now, they have more and more studies that really affirm what humanity is known forever is that companionship adds health and wellness to our entire lives.
08:01They find more and more studies come out that dogs, cats, other animals relieve stress, right?
08:08We see that in our daily lives now.
08:09And we sort of are always waiting for scientists to prove this to us, but we've always known in our core that pets and animals around us can be really beneficial to our lives and creating a lot of joyful connection.
08:23Yeah.
08:23And there's research and studies and anybody can, can just type in, write a blog and get it out there.
08:28But you tend to see that people with, that have dogs or cats or animals that take care of them tend to live a more fulfilling life or maybe, and maybe even longer.
08:39There's lots of stories on that, but I, I'm a believer that people live longer because they have more responsibility and they have more love.
08:46I don't know about all animals, but dogs, you know, I know a little bit about unconditional love.
08:52It just doesn't matter.
08:54It doesn't matter.
08:54They're happy to see you.
08:56They're happy that you're there.
08:57Or, you know, wouldn't that be nice to just have more of that in the world?
09:01And I, and I think animals, they teach us.
09:04That's why I bring that up because they do.
09:06They do.
09:07They do.
09:08We're speaking with, excuse me.
09:11We're speaking with Spencer Williams, talking about creating joyful leadership.
09:15And you can find him at westpaw.com.
09:18That's west, W-E-S-T, paw, P-A-W.com.
09:23Spencer, you're a values-based manufacturer.
09:27We, you know, talk about, well, you have people, you have people that are customers, you have people that are employees, you have relationships, you have the world, you have to make money.
09:37You have all these things going.
09:39Now we're going to add that on top of what we just said, all these wonderful, glorious things about pets and dogs.
09:45But now you've got to make a profit.
09:47So I'm really curious how, how you can keep that mindset.
09:55Maybe you don't even know you're consciously doing it.
09:57Maybe you just, because you're, you're taking your dog for a walk every day, but you somehow have this balance to grow.
10:05So, and you, you know, you're, you're the first B certified pet company in the world, I believe.
10:13And you, I would love a little bit more understanding on that.
10:17But the first thing is, how do you balance it all?
10:22Yeah.
10:23Well, you know, I think we, and I say we, because I think this whole company looks at this from a mindset of sort of abundance.
10:30Is if we think about it that way, we don't come to this, like, if this, then that sort of exchange thinking of like a transactional relationship.
10:40Let me start with something really simple material wise.
10:43We do a lot of injection molding here in this factory where I sit in Bozeman, Montana is where almost all of our toys are produced.
10:50And they're, they're made from these small little bits of, of plastic that we melt and form into this mold.
10:56And, and we end up with this beautiful recyclable toy, very durable, very safe.
11:02Well, conventionally, you would think a little bit of waste, sweep it up, sweep it up, throw it in the trash, right?
11:08We think, wait, if you throw some of this raw material away that maybe spills on the floor or parts that are seconds that could be otherwise recycled.
11:19What's the big deal?
11:21When we think about it in a holistic sense, when we can reduce waste through recycling or better production methods, we not only are good for the planet, we're also good for profits.
11:35You see, our material is such a premium grade material, Tony, that any waste is just taking dollars away from the bottom line.
11:42But when we think about it, we think, how can we treat things from this mindset of getting more out of answering multiple questions at once?
11:51Same with people and leadership.
11:53If you think about it from an abundance standpoint, it's, it's, it's not how much productivity can we extract?
11:58No, it's how much productivity can we help unlock?
12:03And we often talk about this idea that if we can really coach people to grow inside the company and bring in some new ideas from people outside the company, we can all grow our skill set together.
12:13In that, we're sort of unleashing talent.
12:18And so we can do more with less.
12:20We can pay people more to do the work that they're really focused on doing and not try to, try to be thinking about it from a minimal standpoint.
12:29I want to think about it from an abundance standpoint.
12:31So what I come to in our leadership style is like, we can think of people as a real integral part of this company.
12:39A company is made up of nothing but people.
12:41And when we come at leadership from that standpoint, we start to think about what's in the best interest for an employee, what's best for them.
12:49This is even true in those harder conversations all of us have to have in our leadership journeys.
12:55Sometimes the best decision is to part ways.
12:59Sometimes the best decision is a promotion.
13:01But if you think about it, what's best for the employee is generally what's also best for the company and vice versa.
13:06And so we want to think about it from that holistic mindset.
13:08How do we grow and develop and how do we think about people outside of this business adding value to their life while they're adding value to the business at the same time?
13:18That's how I like to look at leadership and our team really aligns with that.
13:22It helps us get through those hard times, helps us really lean into those good times.
13:26I'm thinking with this and I'm thinking you're manufacturing in the U.S.
13:31You're manufacturing where you are.
13:32There's a lot of challenges to that.
13:34And when you say I'm manufacturing to the U.S., most people would think, why U.S.?
13:38Why not overseas, Indonesia, China, wherever, Mexico?
13:42It's cheaper.
13:43The labor is less because it's a lower cost of living, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
13:48So I'm wondering about, well, you've taken that initiative to manufacture there.
13:54Well, there's a lot.
13:55There's a tradeoff.
13:56You can monitor it better.
13:58Your quality control probably is better.
14:01Your hands-on, you can grow the company better probably.
14:04But you have a lot of other disadvantages.
14:07So let's go over the pros and cons on manufacturing in the U.S.
14:12For sure.
14:12I mean, it's very timely right now.
14:13People are talking about bringing businesses back to the United States, whether it is to make the supply chain shorter, avoid tariffs, so on and so forth.
14:21And I think Westpaw, since 1996, has always had this idea like we're going to make everything possible, everything we possibly can make.
14:28We're going to make it right here in the United States, but not only not in the United States, in Bozeman, Montana.
14:32And we love the fact that we get this challenge.
14:35And this is what I'm talking about with our employees and how people look at.
14:38They don't look at challenges in this company.
14:40It's like, oh, shoot, that's so hard.
14:42How do we leave this challenge like, oh, man, let's overcome that.
14:44Let's figure out some creativity.
14:45Let's unlock the team talent and grow.
14:49And when I think I'm looking out on the production floor right now because I can see the windows and I can see down the production floor.
14:53And it's just so cool to be here and hear the machines running in the background.
14:56And I know in there everybody's solving for tomorrow.
14:59That's one of our core values.
15:01They're solving for what we can do better.
15:03And it's this idea in manufacturing in the United States, if you're complacent, the global market will eat you up.
15:12So when we started really educating our employees on why lean manufacturing or Toyota production systems would really matter, how do we make this company as efficient as possible but put the human in the center of that conversation?
15:27Then we started to unlock the potential of our employees to really compete globally by driving down whatever cost we could possibly drive down, by making it right the first time and not creating a bunch of waste and doing just-in-time manufacturing.
15:39There are so many ways in which American manufacturers can compete globally when they're smart about building a great culture of hardworking people, incentivizing and aligning all those incentives on the company winning.
15:52So we win together, not creating individual wins, but team wins.
15:58But thinking about the best in technology, be that automation technology or machinery that runs really predictably, but also the soft technology of philosophies that you can teach around things like lean manufacturing.
16:12And we've been able to build a brand that is around efficiency and great service, but we can add to that components of great culture, environmentally friendly, and being able to complete globally.
16:24We want to leverage all that value to make sure that we get the premium price that our product and our company deserve.
16:29So I think that there's an opportunity in America to have a lot more manufacturers here when they're very focused on how they'll win in a higher cost environment and how they can leverage all the people and all the technologies to make products right here as close as possible to their customer.
16:48I mentioned this in the intro very little bit, and you just brought it up and touched upon it, the culture.
16:56All right, we went over the manufacturing in the U.S. and the purpose and the toys, and we're doing it for society, and we're trying to run a profit and balance it.
17:08But now you've got a very strong culture, a very joyful leadership base there with a very strong employee base.
17:18What are some of the key principles that you keep in place to help build and develop and grow that culture?
17:25I think first is, as I mentioned right at our beginning of a call, it's something that I think just is innate in how I look at people, is we wanted to create jobs with dignity.
17:36What does that mean in today's world?
17:39I think it's a really deep question, and it's just been core to how we operate.
17:44These are not just cogs in a machine or nodes in an office.
17:49These are really people who should have dignity and be treated as such.
17:54And so I also mentioned humanizing business.
17:57When we humanize business, we see each other for who we are, and we get away from this transactional thinking.
18:02And I think when we really wonder, how can we create more out of this business together, collaboratively, then we start to unlock those talents of people.
18:16And I've watched people in this business, Tony, over the years.
18:19They come up with ideas.
18:21They contribute those ideas.
18:22They're recognized for them and amongst our team or with our customers.
18:27And they know that they're a part of something bigger than themselves.
18:32I think we all crave to be a part of something bigger and more impactful than ourselves.
18:38Some people say, oh, that's because being on a team is the greatest thing.
18:40It is if you love being on that team.
18:43But it's this idea of outside of me is something even more impactful than myself.
18:47And I want to extend that kind of positive impact so our teams really matter to us.
18:53It's that human element, that dignity, that humanizing business that really, really sets our culture apart.
19:00I've seen this business over nearly 30 years.
19:04We've had ups and we've had downs.
19:06And your culture isn't one that stays static and flat, right?
19:10I always think about it like sourdough.
19:13I love to bake, and my wife and I keep a sourdough.
19:15And if you don't ever feed your sourdough, it will go flat.
19:19It'll go dormant on you.
19:21But sourdough is meant to rise and fall over its life cycle week to week as you bake.
19:26Culture doesn't stay flat.
19:28It goes up and down.
19:30And you have to understand and embrace when it does have these cycles.
19:35Because people are a system in and of themselves.
19:39And so even in the hard times, what I notice is that our teams come together.
19:43They recognize the hard times.
19:44They recognize what we're going to do to get out of it, how to solve for tomorrow, and we get out of it together.
19:50That's the important piece, is always together.
19:53It's a really good thing to recognize and understand.
19:58I've been podcasting for 10 years, and I'm sure I've said multiple times how great it is to be an entrepreneur and work your own hours.
20:08And you work longer hours, but you're happier.
20:11And all these things I've said about entrepreneurs.
20:13And while you're saying this, I'm thinking, I've never really said much about teams.
20:19Well, I have a little bit, depending on who I interview.
20:23And I've never talked much about working in the corporate.
20:27But something really important kind of floated up while you were saying this, and that is on teams.
20:33When you're working with a team, you feel that you can get more done, and you do get more done than you would normally because you have the support and backup of people.
20:45And I know people, and I've run into people all my life, that would rather work for a good company, and it just didn't even matter the pay scale because it was the team.
20:57It was, I love my job.
20:59I love my work.
21:00That passion, that awareness is so strong.
21:06It's stronger than the money.
21:08Yes, we need money to eat and pay our rents or whatever, mortgage, but it's that team camaraderie that is so strong.
21:16And when you get that in a company, people, you know, it doesn't matter sometimes if they're offered something else.
21:23They will stick with it because they recognize that they have something precious.
21:30You know, so.
21:31Right on.
21:32Right on, Tony.
21:33I couldn't agree more with what you're saying.
21:34People need to be respected in what they bring to the team through compensation.
21:41And people need to also have the ability to grow their skill set in other companies, right?
21:48The diversity of work often creates a better career, better employees.
21:53What we find, though, is that because our culture is so strong and because people can truly feel recognized for the contributions they deliver into their teams and the company, that people don't tend to demand wage increases.
22:10They don't tend to demand a change for, like, keep me here so I don't take the job down the road.
22:16People stay, and they grow their compensation, and they grow their career here because they feel validated.
22:23They feel connected.
22:24They feel appreciated for what they contribute.
22:27And that's not just me.
22:29That's on everybody to do.
22:30It's a culture of all of us together.
22:32And that's the beautiful thing.
22:34So our turnover is very low, right?
22:38Our hiring is very good.
22:40We can hire people at high levels.
22:43And I just had one of our team members say yesterday, I can't believe we just filled those production roles literally in hours, right?
22:50Well, how do we know that?
22:51We sometimes have a temporary service where we need somebody to come in, and there's a temporary agency we use in town.
22:56Our jobs will fill in minutes.
22:58It's posted online.
22:59It'll fill in minutes.
23:00Why is that?
23:02These people don't know me.
23:03They know the company.
23:05They know this culture.
23:06And so to your point, yeah, we want to pay what's fair and honorable to people.
23:11But money doesn't always buy you the kind of relationship and connection and productivity that great culture and leadership can do.
23:20And it also won't retain somebody who really wants to leave a toxic environment.
23:25So we're grateful that we really focus on those things because they add value.
23:28So when I go back to our conversation earlier, Tony, and I was sharing with you, like, the waste of the material on the floor and, you know, how that's bad for the planet but also bad for profits and save it.
23:37It's better for planet, better for profits.
23:39We invest in people, in our culture, in our leadership, and the work that they get to do and grow.
23:44And in turn, they stay with us longer period of time, helping save us a lot of costs on turnover.
23:51It's a win-win.
23:52They win, and the company wins.
23:54It's thinking about this from this idea of abundance together.
23:57Totally, totally agree.
23:59Now, you may think that it was a trick question.
24:02I had never asked trick questions.
24:05But the world, I mean, the world changes.
24:09We don't know what's going to happen tomorrow or later this afternoon at 4 o'clock.
24:13We think we're going to know what's going to happen tomorrow.
24:15But tomorrow at 11 a.m., it's different than what we thought, and it's uncertain.
24:21You know, you think you brought it up.
24:24There's tariffs we should manufacture in the U.S.
24:26Tomorrow, something else could happen.
24:29I'm not even going to conjecture.
24:31We'll spend hours conjecturing what can happen.
24:34The thing is, there's uncertainty.
24:37And I think, going along with what we talk about, building a culture, people will, I believe, will be more loyal, I believe.
24:46Because if they're in a company that they enjoy and love and they've got enough benefits there and they're being paid fair, they can eat.
24:56They can pay the key bills.
24:58You know, they're going to stay and they'll want to stay despite the ups and downs.
25:02But there are ups and downs.
25:05Unfortunately, you know, a couple of years ago, we had major ups and downs in the world.
25:10You know, we don't know what's going to happen.
25:11So how do you deal when something's, you've got to change, you've got to shift.
25:16Something major comes and it just changes everybody's mindset.
25:19How do you personally lead during those times, during those times?
25:25Yeah.
25:27That's a great question because, as I said, we have seen highs and we have seen lows.
25:31And I think one of the things that I've always done, and there's books written about it recently in the last 10, 20 years.
25:38But I've always been very open book, very transparent with our employees.
25:43And some people will take that further than us.
25:46Some, maybe not so far.
25:47What that looked like in the early days was sharing difficult decisions, sharing big wins openly over a meal, over lunch, over snack in the afternoon, what have you.
25:57And I remember the first time this really hit home for me, we were, our factory was very, very small.
26:04And we were in a much smaller town outside of Bozeman.
26:07And after a couple of years, I decided to move to a place where we could grow the facility over time.
26:12And it was over, it's not about 20 miles away, Tony, but it was over a mountain pass.
26:16And so we shared the difficult news with our employees over breakfast.
26:22We didn't have very many employees at the time, maybe eight.
26:24But it was so important just to be transparent on why.
26:28Why did this move have to happen?
26:31Why would it be better for them in the future if they chose to stay?
26:34And how would we help to accommodate their schedule now that they're going to drive, you know, 30 minutes to get to work?
26:39And that kind of transparency in hard times with hard decisions is super important.
26:45And if a company goes through a really hard patch, they have to reduce costs, whether that's labor, whether that's equipment, or they lose a big customer, it's really important to go in there with everything possible that you can tell the employees, even the hard stuff.
27:01Like, here's how I came to this decision, and here's the why behind that decision.
27:07This and this has happened, or we believe this and this is going to happen, and therefore we have to make some really careful decisions.
27:14And we're going to make some hard decisions.
27:18And when a business doesn't treat it through corporate speak or some big posting or a long letter employees have to read, but actually just humans standing up in front of people, again, over a lunch, over a snack, and sharing that out honestly, as transparently as possible, as open book as possible, really creates a lot of trust.
27:41And when I think about trust, that foundational element in all relationships is trust.
27:48And so in those hard times, when a lot of people just want to be like, I'm just going to be quiet, I'm not going to say anything, I'm just going to buckle down and get through it, sometimes it's the worst thing you can do.
27:59My experience is share, share openly what you can, and build that layer of trust.
28:03You will be wrong.
28:05You won't see it perfectly.
28:06People won't agree with you, but you'll at least be saying, on this footing, on this foundation of trust, I'm sharing with you all I can.
28:14I don't have to share all this, but I'm sharing with you so you understand.
28:17And then as you go through those hard times, people come together, people see a path together, and they think, I want to stay a part of this, I want to be a part of this turnaround, or the recovery of that customer, or launch that new product, and get through these hard times, and we can do it together.
28:36And that's where we come back to this idea of team and culture.
28:40So hard times, my advice is share.
28:43Share as openly as one can.
28:45And then continue to give team updates.
28:48Don't just go and sit in a corner.
28:50Don't go quiet.
28:52Keep sharing that information.
28:54And then the one piece that I think is always hard for an entrepreneur is to listen.
29:01What are the employees telling you?
29:03What do you not want to hear?
29:04This is really where some of the great ideas come from.
29:09Spencer, how often would you say you may have a schedule, you may not, but how often would you say you have an employee meeting where you stand up and talk to the whole company?
29:21How often monthly would you, do you have a monthly meeting or weekly?
29:26How often?
29:26We do a monthly where we run through key performance metrics and some financial numbers every month.
29:32And we've done that as regularly.
29:36We used to do it years ago every week.
29:38And that was a lot for our employees to just that constant pace.
29:43But every month, we shut down the entire factory operations.
29:47We do it between two of our shifts.
29:49So everybody in the company can be there in person.
29:51And then we will generally share something out through our internal messaging system as well, through email or Teams post or what have you, so people can hear it all.
30:01And we record it and share that recording willingly.
30:04I mean, there's so much technology that makes it easy for small companies today just to be really open and honest.
30:07And then if there's any strategic planning, we also share after that.
30:14So every quarter, we do an off-site for a day.
30:18We look at our rocks.
30:19We develop some other key rocks.
30:22We look at our performance indicators.
30:23We come back to the company.
30:24And we do about an hour, hour and a half, I think it's an hour and a half presentation.
30:29And it is mostly trying to get through the content so they know where the company has been, but mostly where it's going in the next quarter or the next year and how we're progressing towards our goals.
30:42But the really important part is the question and answer at the end.
30:45What do people have to ask?
30:47And we just say, ask anything, right?
30:49And that's really important.
30:50And so every month, at least once, we have an all-staff.
30:54Every quarter, we have an annual, we give them an update.
30:59And then every day, we have standing huddles with our teams.
31:04So that's really also important.
31:05And I'll pop into those standing huddles, not every week, not every day, but people can cross over from those standing huddles.
31:11Being visible in a company, whether you're online and visible or in-person and visible, is super important today.
31:18You answered one of my upcoming questions that I was forming while you were talking, but I'm going to expand on that.
31:24So I've worked in corporate, what I call corporate America and business world for at least three decades.
31:31And the last place I worked, typical of other places, where the person in charge, CEO, president, what have you, does all the talking.
31:43And the last place I worked at, the person in charge would do these two-hour talks and would really not like and would not enjoy anyone to ask or try to go on a different direction or what about this or what about that.
32:02I wanted to keep it on point, but it was, it would wind up become very one-sided and my corporate life.
32:12I see that constantly.
32:14It's one-sided and I believe you and, and your employees probably don't know how fortunate they are to work in a company like this.
32:24And I say this very honestly, from my experience, because usually, and it's kind of like developed because the, the person in charge is the visionary created that business, the founder or, or, or took it from his family.
32:39But usually it's created that business and, and, and, and keeps a lot of that stuff close to their chest and, and knows how they want the company to run because they've run it to whatever seven, eight digits or whatever they are.
32:50So they become not egotistical, but very strong willed upon this is the way it's done because they've done it for so long, but the world changes, the world changes so much.
33:01And it's hard sometimes, and I, you know, to get that understanding to the CEO, to look in or listen to something else.
33:09So the fact that you actually allow questions and I'm not trying to be facetious, really, I think it's an amazing point that you allow questions and other communications to come in, because this is what concern your employees.
33:21You may not, it may not concern you.
33:22You may not even think about it, but all of a sudden they're concerned about it.
33:25And so they bring that up.
33:27So I think that's really important to have that kind of communication level.
33:33And there, and, and I think it's being willing to take some of the hard questions.
33:392021, I think we, I had a hard question.
33:43An employee had been here for a long time.
33:45We were having a tough year and the employee said, Spencer, what's it like to own a company that isn't yet profitable this year?
33:52I got to, you know, like one, it showed a lot of care, right?
33:57Cause I'm the owner.
33:58So I've got a personal guarantee on loans, line of credit, stuff like that.
34:01Showed a lot of care from that employee, but that was not a softball question.
34:06And I'm up in front of the staff and I'm like, okay, like, let me level with you.
34:10It doesn't feel great.
34:11There's a lot of risk, right?
34:13But though you, if you only say, well, I'm not going to answer that question.
34:17That's too hard.
34:18Then what happens to the trust barometer, right?
34:20It goes way down.
34:22So like, I think any questions and, and, and, and I also like, I'll turn to like Lamont who runs the manufacturing operations or Julie, who runs sales and marketing or, or, you know, somebody else like Jordan on a personnel issue.
34:37Like Jordan, why don't you take that?
34:38Like, I don't want to answer every question, right?
34:41It's like somebody else in the room want to answer that.
34:43They often, you know, in our, in our all staff too, like the sales team, we have a few salespeople who will be remote.
34:50A lot of people will hear in the factory or on site, of course.
34:52And, and somebody from the back will say, Hey, so-and-so I saw their big order come through.
34:58And then it seemed like it, you know, changed or the ship date changed.
35:01And suddenly you'll have somebody from the sales team speaking up.
35:04Like, well, let me tell you why.
35:06Here's what happened with that order and why that ship date changed.
35:08And the fact that it doesn't go through the mouthpiece of everything having to come from the CEO or the president or, you know, anything HR has to always come through HR, you know, no, it's like who, who's best, who's closest to that work can answer it.
35:21Right.
35:22I love that.
35:24I like that.
35:25And I have an idea.
35:26I shouldn't say an idea.
35:28I have a comment on products, but we're going to, we're going to take that up just a little bit later because you're talking to a long-term dog lover here.
35:35Yes.
35:35But, but, but let's, let's move on down the line.
35:38I mentioned earlier at the very, very beginning, you're a certified B Corp in the pet industry.
35:44And my audience of entrepreneurs and business owners are going, what does that mean?
35:49Why is it important?
35:50And what does that have to do with your, you know, growing your business?
35:53Yes.
35:54Well, great.
35:54Well, let me just start off by saying like a lot of what we're talking about today, Tony, is it's, it's, you, you kind of run a company in line with your values, you know, is, is, is how I like to see small businesses.
36:06And I think big businesses have great values too, right?
36:09It's not just small businesses.
36:10And so a lot of this, you can't sort of manufacture to make yourself as a business or a brand, one thing or the other, like people see through that today.
36:20And so what I want to talk about, when I think about certified B Corp is like Westpaw was always about sustainability.
36:28We were always about employee wellness.
36:30We're always about treating our customers well and giving back to our community.
36:33Like those were always core tenants of what we did in 1996, right?
36:37We used to make cat toys and we'd sell certified organic catnip.
36:40So Oregon Tilth, who certifies a lot of organic products today, was our certifier in 1996.
36:46And I think in Bozeman, Montana, you probably couldn't have bought a head of lettuce that was certified organic, but we were selling catnip that was certified organic because it mattered to me, the health of the cat, the cleanliness of the planet.
36:57So we've had a lot of these like different ideas from a long time ago.
37:01And when I think about fast forward from 1996 to 2012, I think is when we first certified as a B Corp, that it wasn't a change in how we looked at our business, but it was really a codifying of who we are and certifying of who we are as a company that cares about our people, our community and the environment.
37:24And so a certified B Corp is a grouping, it's run by an organization called B Lab, as in like B Laboratory, like a lab for new ideas of how do businesses collectively act as a force for good.
37:40That's really about it.
37:42It doesn't matter how environmentally friendly somebody is at a net score.
37:49It's the combination of values in a business.
37:51How strong are they for the environment?
37:53How strong are they for the employees, their community, their workers?
37:55How well are they governed?
37:57And what the B Corp community looks like is those are all variables that meet up to meet a minimum standard.
38:04And once a business passes that certification on the minimum standard amongst those criteria, then they certify as a B Corp.
38:12That's what we did in 2012.
38:15They went active in 2013 or 2012 or 2013.
38:18We were the industry's first.
38:19And this movement has really grown.
38:22So certified B Corps are famous big companies and wonderful companies like Patagonia, originator over at Ben & Jerry's.
38:33Another one that's more recent and maybe a little controversial because of their sizes is Nespresso.
38:40So you have all these, like, really big companies who are B Corps nowadays down to these really, really small companies.
38:46But it allows for the consumer and, in our case, also retailers who buy our product to understand that the values the company is talking about is more than just good marketing, right?
38:59We care.
38:59You know, our packaging is made from recycled paper.
39:01Well, that's all good.
39:02But is the company well run?
39:05And I think what's really important is the B Corp community recognized this about literally almost 20 years ago now that you can have a certified product like an organic coffee or fair trade chocolate.
39:19But the way in which the company is run might not be as desirable, right?
39:25A B Corp is all about the entire company.
39:27It's not just the products.
39:28It's not just the services.
39:29It's not all the company is run.
39:31And I love that.
39:31So it differentiates great marketing from companies that can prove they're great businesses.
39:37And then collectively, as a group of thousands of businesses worldwide, we're moving together to help business be a really positive and consistent voice for doing good in the world.
39:48That's why we're at B Corp.
39:50I like that.
39:51That's very good.
39:51Now, how does that help?
39:55You may have just answered that because the pet industry, as I understand it, is very, very crowded.
40:00Product innovations are constantly out there.
40:04And I want to talk to you about that a little bit more.
40:08But just first of all, it's just a crowded space.
40:13And there's entrepreneurs and there's people that are just out there with new products and new ideas trying to make money and trying to do very, very fast.
40:20But you're more of a long-term tenure just growing, growing, growing.
40:24But you still have to bring new ideas out there to grow because, you know, I'll mention my new idea story with you in just a few moments here.
40:34Hey.
40:36Can't wait.
40:37Not to put you in mystery, you know.
40:38It's just.
40:39Yeah.
40:39But I'm just thinking of, you know, the whole industry.
40:43And I used to be immersed in the pet industry for about three decades.
40:48You know, I'm in stores all the time.
40:51I'm speaking to vets all the time.
40:54I'm buying products for my dogs.
40:56So it's constant changes, constant changes.
41:01So how do you guys deal with that?
41:03Yeah.
41:04Yeah.
41:04What we look at in the business, and it's always been about how do we make long-term decisions that create long-term value.
41:12One of the differentiators of Westpaw is that we really put a lot of thought and intention behind our raw materials, our product design, the solution they provide.
41:23We think a lot about where and how we're going to make those products.
41:26And then we think about who that's going to impact.
41:29And each one of those is a value creator for the end consumer.
41:35What we notice is that there's a lot of, let's just call it fast fashion today, where brands get a lot bigger really quick by cranking out a lot of products really fast, meaning their SKU count grows a lot.
41:51Their product assortment is huge.
41:52And then consequently, they're discontinued, and their old obsolete products are like waste, right?
41:59We don't look at things that way.
42:01We want to make a durable product that is durable in terms of the materials and its design, and it literally lasts a long time.
42:10That is a controversial way to build a consumer product company because a lot of us have heard about planned obsolescence, right?
42:20This idea that you might buy a piece of furniture, you know, like maybe equipment at home, and then it's going to die in five years.
42:28You have to buy it again.
42:29One, I hate that idea because, one, it's a lot of strain on the company to create and create and create a bunch of stuff.
42:36Two, it's very hard on the planet, and it's hard on people's pocketbook.
42:40So we'd much rather create thoughtful products that last a long period of time that people can enjoy with their pets safely.
42:49And so every one of those value drivers I was talking about, we want our customers to believe in us so that they really understand when they're buying something, they're buying the best.
42:59And that holds true at the retail level, and it holds true at the consumer level for us because we sell mostly to retailers.
43:07We want them to understand that we're not just putting out a bunch of junk and throwing it at the wall and seeing what sticks.
43:13We're going to be thoughtful.
43:15We're going to create long-term decisions, implement long-term decisions that create long-term value.
43:21Totally agree, and I'm not trying to put you on the spot.
43:24I want to make it very clear.
43:25I don't do that.
43:26I don't work that way.
43:28But my last dog, we had a thing where we would buy toys a couple times a week, whatever, $5, $10, and they would have a squeaker in them.
43:43And his command was get the squeaky, and we would give him the toy, and it was just tear it up, attack it, and pull that squeaky out.
43:50And I would wind up having just a huge amount of squeakers.
43:54And he would do it very, very quickly.
43:55And I'll tell you why I'm telling you this story.
43:57Well, one time after a while, years later, perhaps, the toys all changed, and they became indestructible.
44:09And that whole get the squeaky, playing with the toys, that whole thing changed.
44:14And I bring this up because I could be, with that dog, an anomaly.
44:19It could just be one out of 400 million pet owners.
44:23But whatever people want, I would think if you spend time surveying them, speaking with them, seeing what they want, hands-on in places, because maybe more people want that.
44:38I don't know, for all I know, that was the anomaly.
44:40But after the pet toys changed, we were like, how can we make these ourselves?
44:45But it was a very, this is a one-off.
44:47So I'm just really not trying to throw jaded anything.
44:51But I just did want to share that story because there may be things people want that you're only going to find out by just sitting, by hanging out with them and talking to them in pet stores and stuff like that and meeting with them.
45:06You learn so much from customers, right?
45:08Just connecting with customers and talking with them, you learn so much.
45:12And you understand how the dog or how the people enjoy the products, how they want to play with the products.
45:19And I think you're right.
45:20It's just, it's being, it's connecting with customers.
45:23It's really being, for me, a pet parent myself.
45:26Like, I love to play with my dog, Nico, because I get to see how he's interacting with me with the toys, how he interacts with toys on his own.
45:34And it's just super cool to have that kind of connection to innovation.
45:39Like, what can we do that's more fun?
45:42And I think that's really a neat thing about, like, this idea of what we were talking about earlier on this conversation is how we as people get to participate with our pets.
45:52We get to give them love and care, and they give it back to us in the form of play and affection.
45:57It's awesome.
45:58You hit the nail on the head.
45:59It's all about that enjoyment with the pet.
46:02Last question here.
46:03If you were asked, and you are being asked now, to give one piece of advice to our entrepreneurs and business people in the world, especially those just starting out, what would you say to them?
46:15I would say there's really important challenges that businesses can solve today in the world.
46:23And I would really challenge an inspired entrepreneur to think about how do they create a business that helps us solve those challenges that also can make a lasting and profitable contribution to society over many, many years.
46:39It is not all about transactional and how fast you can get in and how fast you can get out.
46:45I want to really speak to people who think about creating durable value for themselves, for their employees, and for the community over time.
46:54And that that value of creation can exist in businesses today, and it creates so much good and can create a lot of wealth in the meantime.
47:06That's what I want to encourage entrepreneurs to do today is pursue that vision.
47:10I love it.
47:11Once again, this is Spencer Williams talking about creating joyful leadership.
47:16You can find them at westpaw.com.
47:20Spencer, great advice, great information.
47:23I love this topic.
47:24I could keep talking about pets because I truly appreciate what a company like you, is that the right grammar, a company like yours does?
47:32There you go.
47:33Very, very appreciated.
47:35I just want to thank you for the advice and the information.
47:37And I kind of relived a little bit of the joy I've had with my pets, believe it or not.
47:42I'm serious.
47:43So thank you so much.
47:44Well, Tony, it's just such a great conversation with you.
47:46It's so natural, and I'm so grateful to the impact you provide with all your work in literature and on these podcasts.
47:55This is an amazing opportunity.
47:56Thank you so much.
47:58My pleasure.
47:59Thank you so much.
48:00Thank you so much, sir.
48:02Well, there you go.
48:03That was absolutely amazing.
48:05Guys, if you like this, share this with your friends.
48:07Tell them about Spencer.
48:09Tell them about Westpaw.
48:10Tell them what they've done and how they've built this culture where it doesn't matter what's going on in the world.
48:17Almost.
48:17This is my take.
48:18People love working there.
48:20They love.
48:21There's a stability there.
48:22There's a camaraderie there.
48:24Find out more about what they do.
48:26And maybe there's some items that or points that you can incorporate in your company or your business, whatever you're doing.
48:34And really, really understand what he's been through.
48:38It's not a walk in the park, but yet it's a very large, successful company.
48:42And they've been able to pivot and deal with whatever society is thrown at them.
48:46So there's a lot to learn here.
48:48And wherever you're getting this, would you please follow the show?
48:50It helps to bring in more amazing guests to you.
48:54Thank you so much.
48:55All right.
48:56Let's use this and let's help you move on your journey to success.
49:00Thanks.
49:00Remember, just take action.
49:02Success awaits those who persevere and remain steadfast despite the odds.
49:09Sow good seeds, do good deeds, and I'll see you on the next episode.
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