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Martin Scorsese Presents The Saints
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00:00These are stories of the saints.
00:30St. Sebastian lived nearly 2,000 years ago.
00:48That was still the very early days of Christianity.
00:50It was long before the church developed any kind of official procedures for canonization.
00:56So, the stories of the early saints were spread from person to person, and they gradually
01:05became legend.
01:08That is the realm where historical truth gives way to a spiritual truth.
01:18Sebastian is just one among many Christian martyrs before and after his death.
01:26But he's lived on as a kind of prototype, a supreme example of absolute and undying faith.
01:38We know that he lived near the end of the third century AD.
01:42It's a period of great instability in the empire.
01:47We know that he was a commander in the Roman Praetorian Guard, which was a cohort of elite
01:53soldiers charged with protecting the divinely sanctioned emperor, Carinus.
02:02And we know that in the heat of battle, Sebastian and his fellow Praetorians turned on the emperor,
02:10the latest in a long line of unlucky rulers who had seized the throne and been quickly removed.
02:21They were led by Carinus' rival from the east, Diocletian.
02:36Diocletian took control of the empire as it was coming apart at the seams, splitting between
02:42east and west.
02:44He created a vast bureaucracy which allowed him to consolidate his power.
02:50He wanted to bring back the glory days at the Pax Romana to make Rome great again.
02:57a hierarchy of worship of our venerable Roman deities.
03:07This is a return to the official religion of Rome.
03:10What about the deities of Gaul or in the north?
03:14And what about all the Christians that are too many now?
03:19It is time to purify ourselves, simplify and purify.
03:24Hold your tongue until I finish.
03:31If we are to uphold our responsibility as the rulers over this great dominion, which
03:35is most of the known world, then we must re-establish order.
03:44Why would every man in this chamber clamber to retrieve a trinket from the floor?
04:12I'll tell you why.
04:17Because this trinket is our world.
04:21And it rests in my hands.
04:31I love Rome.
04:35I love every cobblestone and every vista.
04:40Two thousand years from now, when Rome has taken on a grandeur we cannot even attempt
04:46to imagine, I will sit at the banquet of the gods and smile with the certainty that I was
04:52one of those who maintained its might and its splendor.
04:56I dedicate my life to you, my emperor, here before you.
05:08Here is another true Roman.
05:13Can I say the same for the rest of you?
05:19Under previous rulers, Christianity had been tolerated in the empire, but Diocletian reverted
05:26to the old ways.
05:28He ruled by divine right of the Roman gods, making anyone who refused to worship them a threat
05:35to his power.
05:38That was an act punishable by torture.
05:49I was four when the young Dominus Gordian visited my homeland.
05:52What days those were.
05:56My father was called upon to prepare the welcoming scroll to be read by the governor, and it was
06:00engraved on a marker that still stands.
06:03I visited it recently, it's in fine shape.
06:05Do you know the Illyrian coast?
06:06I do, Dominus.
06:09The Roman vineyards are superior, there's no doubt.
06:13But I miss the Illyrian wines when I'm away from home.
06:18When Gordian came, they made the new wines, casks of it.
06:26Do you like new wines, or aged wines?
06:29You didn't gather caves, Dominus.
06:33Ha!
06:34Gaul.
06:36The wines are exceptional.
06:40One day we'll bring casks from Gaul again.
06:42Yes, Dominus.
06:47You know, the world is our responsibility.
06:51We can enjoy our wines and our feasts, but only if we maintain our discipline and hold the
06:55ancient order.
06:57I see that clearly.
06:59Otherwise, the wines will rule us and blunt our minds.
07:06These debates about the Christians, the word that always arises is tolerance.
07:21But if it were a simple matter of tolerance, there would be no need for all the florid rhetoric
07:28in the Senate.
07:30But tolerance does not hold dominions together.
07:37But without our gods, who are we?
07:42I'm not making rhetoric, Sebastian.
07:49I'm asking you.
07:51Without our venerable gods, we are nothing but blind men chasing their own shadow.
07:55Dominus.
07:57I see something in you, Sebastian.
08:04You are a defender of the state.
08:06Thank you, Dominus.
08:07Thank you, Dominus.
08:08Thank you, Dominus.
08:13Thank you, Dominus.
08:14The threat of torture was always there for the Christians.
08:26They couldn't gather to worship in the home of their pope, Caius.
08:31So they gathered in secret.
08:33Salve.
08:34Sebastian.
08:35We rounded up a group of Christians at the old Macellum Manu.
08:49Now we know their sign.
08:51What sign?
08:52It's a fish.
08:53A fish?
08:54Yeah.
08:55Marcus and Marcellanus were among them.
08:59Tranquilinus' sons?
09:00That's correct.
09:01Where are they?
09:02Nikostralis' villa.
09:08If it were up to me alone, you'd both be quiet.
09:23You'd both be quartered and thrown into the sewers.
09:33But you're being allowed to make a small sacrifice to the gods.
09:37And after that, you will be free to leave.
09:41You will never get us to renounce our faith.
09:46Well, that's good.
09:48Because then I will attend to you personally.
09:52You thought I was joking, didn't you?
09:59I didn't.
10:01You can destroy our bodies easily, not our spirit.
10:07I see.
10:08So this means nothing to you?
10:13Your faith is that great?
10:16You will pay for your sins.
10:20Will I?
10:22And I can see from your face that you're paying for them already.
10:35Well, I do have another weapon.
10:40And yes, I think I'll get it.
10:44You're possible.
10:45Did you know that your sons were Christians?
10:59I see that you did not.
11:03see that you did not you've both brought shame on us and all our ancestors shame
11:09dear god in heaven i pray stop with your prayer we are in chains and you talk to us in that tone
11:20your sons have been given a very simple choice what choice our choice is to be tortured or to
11:26make a sacrifice to the gods so that we can walk away alive yes and you'll arrest an imprisonment
11:33here will be stricken from the record by imperial edict how dare you refuse this offer you ungrateful
11:43little whores i'll make the sacrifice you won't we swore it to each other look they want nothing
11:52from you at all it's nothing it's everything
11:56prator dear sebastian you must explain to these brats that they have no choice they must make
12:06the sacrifice to the gods i cannot and i will not and neither will you
12:12i believe in the one true god and his only begotten son you fool bull i want to speak to them alone
12:24thank you thank you
12:30as you say
12:34you're here to save us
12:50you're here to save us
13:04i'm here to help you save yourselves
13:08how can we save ourselves don't you know what he's telling us brother don't you believe
13:18i do then you must know that we only answer to the one true god not to our ancestors not to our elders
13:29not to our father and not to our mother to god
13:33and only god that is the only way of salvation
13:39yes but but what how can we dishonor our father
13:45how can we how can you deny your god
13:49his way is the only way
13:54what will they do to us
13:56they can't touch you so
14:08you have nothing to fear for me
14:15this weapon
14:17is not going to leave its sheath
14:21if the sword is not going to leave its sheath then why don't you lay it down
14:25because if i do you're going to kill me instantly
14:28and you're going to force marcelinus to renounce his faith
14:31and then you're going to spread the word and cause the suffering of many more christians just to gain favor with diocletian
14:37i could scream right now and you'd be arrested
14:41perhaps
14:45but i will promise you this
14:47i will stand here
14:50as long as it takes
14:53as long as what takes
14:55the struggle
14:58your struggle
14:59what struggle
15:00will be long
15:27the struggle will be long
15:30but i will be here
15:47go away
16:00it was impossible
16:27unthinkable
16:29nicostratus
16:31the terror of all roman christians
16:33had converted to christianity
16:37he freed all of his prisoners
16:42and he had his entire household baptized
16:57and he was going to be unmasked
17:01Cromatius, who was the prefect or the sheriff of Rome.
17:05Cromatius resigned his post,
17:07and he freed and converted all 6,400 of his slaves.
17:14Dramatic mass conversions were happening at a rapid rate,
17:17and Sebastian was at the secret heart of it all.
17:24And he was going to be unmasked.
17:27It was inevitable.
17:31I love the Empire.
17:53Say it, my son.
17:57I feel...
18:01I feel like I'm betraying my whole life.
18:04Of course you do.
18:06How could you not?
18:08You were trained to defend and uphold the glory and honor of the Empire.
18:14It was my whole life.
18:16Yes, it was.
18:18Until now.
18:20Now your life has another meaning.
18:22I know.
18:27Everything changes.
18:30And in order for Rome to live, Rome must change.
18:35And allow people to live with a freedom that isn't allowed by the Empire.
18:39But given by God.
18:41The only way is the way of love.
18:43And the way of Rome must be the way of love.
18:50You must bring as many people as possible to the South.
18:54The time has come.
18:57Many would rather stay here and die for the faith.
19:00But people must survive in order for the faith to flourish.
19:04That is the most important thing now.
19:06That is what we must accomplish.
19:08Bastion.
19:09You must remember doubt is crucial to faith.
19:14Real faith.
19:17Otherwise it's just more blind obedience.
19:19I say in the name of the Father and the Son of the Holy Ghost.
19:29I appoint you defender of the faith.
19:47After the exodus to the South,
19:49many of the leaders of the Christian movement
19:51were rooted out.
20:02Nicostratus was killed.
20:06And Marcellus and Marcellianus
20:09were crucified.
20:19You found me.
20:40You found me.
20:40And I'll come true.
20:52And I'll accept you.
20:56Yes, now I see it.
21:19I thought you would like the Stoics.
21:22But it really was a belief in your God.
21:25Not just my God.
21:27Yours as well, everyone.
21:30Sebastian, if it were anyone else,
21:34to me you were the true heart of Rome, the everlasting empire.
21:37Only everlasting if Rome chooses the way of love.
21:39I haven't asked you to speak.
21:41I speak in the name of the one true God.
21:45He delivers us from evil and temptation and he lives in our souls.
21:49Shoot him full of arrows so that I can see right through him.
21:53Dominos.
21:54Dominos!
21:55You must, you must let Christian belief flourish in Rome.
21:58You must let men find their way to salvation, to immortality, to immortality, to immortality, to immortality.
22:10We are caught in heaven.
22:14We are caught in heaven.
22:14We are caught in heaven.
22:16Goodbye, Sebastian.
22:33Sebastian
22:38We are caught in heaven.
22:39Come on.
22:39Come on.
22:40Come on, love.
22:43What?
22:47Oh.
22:48Sebastian was found by a woman named Irene, who had come to mourn his death.
23:09HE SIGHS
23:39but then over many months she nursed him back to health we must move you to the south
23:51no one will find you there no i want to speak to diocresia
24:09dominos get away
24:28it's sebastian sebastian is dead
24:34i've risen to continue our talk about illyrian lines you dishonor rome by your wearing that
24:47uniform now you dishonor rome with your pagan gods and your two-faced treachery that has led our
24:53dominos onto the wrong path you've risen from your deathbed and humbled all the way here
24:59to tell me your dominos who you once claimed to love so dearly who you kicked away like an old
25:05whore you are saying to me that i have been led on the wrong path for that to die twice more
25:11i've come to ask you again to let christianity flourish in rome and throughout the empire
25:16you must see this is the only way it is the way of god it is the way of the future i beg you to
25:21listen to me jupiter and all the gods damn you and all your ancestors
25:26those pagan gods and the priests venerate them are making the mockery out of you
25:33and wrong
25:35who's gonna seal this woman's mouth forever and for your soul dominos
25:39for your salvation
25:41you once told me you saw something in me
25:54how do you know this is not it
25:58take this man and beat him into jelly
26:04this time finish it
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26:35No, no, no.
27:05His body was dumped in a secret place, but Sebastian came to a fellow Christian in a dream, and he revealed a location.
27:35No, no, no.
28:05Sebastian became a saint before the process was standardized and codified.
28:11It happened in those early days by word of mouth.
28:14And it became legend.
28:18By the sun, if they have not sacrificed to the sun god according to the ancient rite,
28:34and have not obeyed the warnings, I will lash them with whips of scorpions and destroy them with exquisite torments.
28:44In the year 313 AD, Constantine I took the throne.
28:53I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things, visible and invisible.
29:23I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages.
29:39God from God, light from light, true God from true God.
29:48Begotten, begotten, not made, consubstantial with...
29:57Constantine officially ended the persecution of Christians, and he ushered in the period known as the peace of the church.
30:05Before the century had ended, Christianity was made the official religion of Rome.
30:15In terms of St. Sebastian, here we're dealing with something that's really close to a legend in a way.
30:32A folk tale, and he became, what, the first, is he considered the first martyr?
30:51This first martyr is Stephen, actually, St. Stephen, yeah, but he's one of the early Roman martyrs, and, you know, as you're saying, the further we go back in church history,
31:02when you have early Roman martyrs, saints of antiquity, the martyrs of antiquity, it's not surprising that legends would kind of surround them.
31:09Sebastian is probably a simple man, but with great inwardness, his relationship to God and relationship to Christian faith, it's not just hidden, and that's an important part, that it's hidden, but it's manifestly not for show.
31:21It's something that's going on in his inner life that marks it off really strongly against the public religion of the period, I think.
31:28He's navigating between his loyalty to the state, which is important back then, especially for Praetorian Guard, and his loyalty to God.
31:37So what's your ultimate loyalty? And for Sebastian, it's God.
31:40The Jesuits in Japan, too, everything being hidden.
31:44I keep coming back to his simplicity. His purity is, he's inviolable in a way.
31:49To me, our depiction of it here takes me back to early Christianity, where it wasn't all about books and doctrine.
31:57This religion was based on custom, stories that were told, holy people that were remembered, stuff that was passed on.
32:06And so the story of Sebastian helps take us back before the Bible was consolidated and doctrine was developed.
32:13It's amazing we have these stories at all.
32:15Yeah.
32:15So for some people who say, well, there's all these legends that accrue, and we have them.
32:21We have these stories going back to the early days of the church, which to me is remarkable.
32:24Yeah.
32:25Sebastian focuses on love. The religion of the future is Christianity, because Christianity is, for him, a religion of love.
32:32Philip Larkin, the poet, who is a deeply cynical writer, said, what will remain of us is love.
32:38And in some respects, Sebastian really got to the heart of the matter.
32:41Yeah, that's what survives of us is love, is the Larkin line.
32:44And that's why we're still talking about him, because he cut through the bullshit and figured that out.
32:49Yeah.
32:49I love what Paul just said about Sebastian was really focused on love, because, you know, isn't that the one, that's the one commandment, isn't it?
32:59We're called to hate a certain group because you're not like us.
33:03And yet, your love or care for a person who's a member of that group can make you tolerant in a way you wouldn't normally be.
33:11I'm speaking about myself, too.
33:13Well, I think also that's the appeal of the saints, that people see themselves in their lives, and that they can identify a part of the saint's life that means something to them.
33:22And I think that's so beautiful.
33:23I think there's a saint for everyone, right?
33:25Because there's something that—
33:26Or they're all for all of us.
33:27They are, but I think there's a way that certain people gravitate towards certain saints, which I think is very beautiful.
33:33I always say my line is that you gravitate towards the saint because the saint is already praying for you in heaven.
33:39I feel so much better today, Jim.
33:43I was—
33:43Yeah, I know.
33:44I need some help.
33:46We all do.
33:47The saints are also two roles for the saints traditionally in the Catholic Church.
33:51Patrons and companions.
33:52So the patron is the one who prays for us from their post in heaven, but the companion is the one who is kind of our example, really, who shows us the way to live the Christian life.
34:01So there's two wonderful ways of relating to the saints.
34:05We haven't spoken about the miraculous nature of his being shot with arrows and somehow recovering from that.
34:12I mean, that does happen.
34:15People get shot in the head and live.
34:16I mean, really, it was fascinating that wherever the arrows hit, it missed the main arteries, it missed everything, and he was taking—
34:23It just so happens.
34:24And then it also raises the issue of, like, maybe—could be.
34:30I mean, just maybe one or two of these guys wanted it to miss.
34:33Oh, I love that, Mark.
34:35You know what I'm saying?
34:36Maybe one or two of these guys wanted it to miss.
34:38It's so funny.
34:42I think at that early time, not having the apparatus of the church as being, in some ways, you're closer to Jesus or something.
34:52But you're right.
34:53There's so—you know, I can go to Mass.
34:55I can go speak to my confessor.
34:57I can pray.
34:58There are spiritual groups.
34:58Without being worried about being killed.
35:01Yes.
35:02To be able to do the things that they did under the threat of death is incredible.
35:07But the purity was there.
35:09They knew this was the revelation.
35:11This was the great change for humanity to survive, you know, and to evolve.
35:19So this guard has a vision of the future of that whole part of the world that eludes Diocletian.
35:24He's looking forward and saying, Christianity must flourish.
35:27Diocletian has got an empire to run.
35:29He's got to make sure that we're going to get back to—let's get back to our roots.
35:33Who were we?
35:34That's what we have to do here.
35:35It reminds me of that line in The Leopard, Lampedusa.
35:39Yeah, right.
35:39In order to stay the same, we've got to change.
35:42That's right.
35:42And on some level, that's what Sebastian's getting at.
35:45Yes.
35:45If we want to carry Romanitas to the next place, it's got to be founded on this religion of love instead of a religion of temple worship.
35:52Exactly.
35:53And it does change.
35:54And it remains the same that way.
35:56With Constantinople.
35:56The empire changes.
35:58A generation and a half later.
35:59A generation, two generations.
36:00You know, I don't characteristically think of Christianity as the religion of the future, and that's the way it's represented in this episode.
36:07In other words, I was jarred out of my conventional way of thinking by that aspect of the story.
36:11I think it still is because it will evolve more.
36:13It's beautiful.
36:13I feel the heavy weight of the history of Christianity and the church, and this story just goes somewhere very different.
36:20Yeah.
36:21I mean, we have to understand, too, the institution of the church, I must say, is also greatly man-made.
36:27So it's subject to our faults.
36:29So he also knows that it's not about temporal power.
36:32It is the hope of the future, right?
36:34The church is always looking ahead.
36:36And I always think of the line of, put not your trust in princes from the Psalms, that Sebastian knew that, that it's about trust in God.
36:46How does one make this transition into this hopefully beautiful unknown future?
36:52Well, Pope Francis says, partly through the arts, partly through making films and television shows about the saints.
37:22So, Pope Francis says, partly through making films and television shows about the saints.
37:52So, Pope Francis says, partly through making films and television shows about the saints.
38:22So, Pope Francis says, partly through making films and television shows about the saints.
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