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India responds to Sheikh Hasina’s death sentence; do dynasties endanger democracy?
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00:00Good evening, hello and welcome. You're with the news today. This is your prime time destination
00:06news, newsmakers, talking points. Our big talking point is coming from Bangladesh where former
00:12Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina has got the death penalty from a tribunal. What happens next?
00:18Also the Pariwar war. Lalu's family split wide open. Our family-based parties running out of
00:26time and currency. Also Sunil Gavaskar will join us on the Eden Garden pitch row. Yes, you're with
00:33the news today. India's only prime time show that brings you the news without the noise. But first
00:39as always, it's time for the nine headlines at nine. Former Bangladesh Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina
00:46gets the death penalty. The UNIS government calls the verdict historic. Bangladesh wants India to
00:53extradite her. Hasina rejects charges, cries that it's a witch hunt.
01:01NIA makes a second arrest in the Red Fort Blast case. Accused Jassir Bilalwani provided
01:06tech support for terror attacks. Home Minister Shah issues an ultimate of vows to hunt down the
01:12culprits even from hell.
01:13Indian Army also has a warning to Pakistan after the Delhi Red Fort Blast. Army Chief General
01:22Upendra Divedi says Operation Sindoor is just a trailer. Picture abhi baqi hai.
01:2942 Indian pilgrims are charged to death after a bus collides with a tanker in Mecca. 18 people
01:35of a single family perish. External Affairs Ministry assures support to victims' families.
01:43Nitish 10.0 government loading in Vyar. Oats ceremony stated on November 20th in Patna's Gandhi
01:50Maidan. Prime Minister Modi to attend. Nitish Kumar swearing in ceremony.
01:54Amid's a raging family feud, Lalu Yadav endorses son Tejasvi's leadership. RJD Chief backed his son
02:03during a meeting with newly elected MLAs even as his daughters have left the house.
02:12Dhanataka Chief Minister Siddharth Amaya meets Congress. President Malik Arjun Kargay says came
02:16to Delhi to seek high commands not for a cabinet reshuffle. BJP mocks the Congress, says cabinet
02:22rejig to sideline DK Shiv Kumar. Amid the Pan India SIR exercise, two BLOs die by suicide in Kerala and
02:33Rajasthan, each allegedly due to mental pressure. Cold body announces beginning of process in Assam from
02:39January 1. In a sharp reversal, Donald Trump calls on House Republicans to vote to release Epstein files,
02:49says Republicans should do so because they have nothing to hide.
02:52Okay, let's turn the door to the big story that's breaking. Bangladesh is acting head.
03:09Muhammad Yunus has called the Hasina verdict where she's been given the death penalty, a verdict that has
03:15offered justice to thousands. Bangladesh is now seeking Sheikh Hasina's extradition. The Bangladesh
03:22government wants India to extradite Sheikh Hasina, who's been here since August last year. The Bangladesh
03:28government says sheltering a mass murderer is an act of enmity. The Ministry of External Affairs says
03:34India has noted the verdict on Sheikh Hasina. The MEA says India committed to the best interests of the
03:40people of Bangladesh. So India being put in a spot by that death penalty verdict there in Dhaka. What
03:47should India do? What is India likely to do next? Geeta Moana, Diplomatic Affairs Editor joining me.
03:53Ahmed Mabroor, Editor of Bangladesh News joining me from Dhaka. First to you Geeta. Bangladesh making it clear
03:59that Sheikh Hasina must be extradited to Bangladesh at the earliest after this death penalty. Is India
04:06looking at a via media now? Well, Rajdeep, they have invoked the extradition treaty between Dhaka and New
04:12Delhi. But this is a very guarded statement that's coming from New Delhi given that they need to engage
04:18Bangladesh and yet need to protect Sheikh Hasina in a way. Go ahead. Right. And they also need to
04:32protect Sheikh Hasina in many ways than once. So are they going to look at a third country? Is something
04:37we'll have to wait and see. For now, the caveat within the extradition treaty is important where
04:42political prisoners, people seeking asylum because of political persecution and ones who have been
04:49given a death penalty or very serious crimes being charged against them in a court that by
04:56unelected governments are caveats within the extradition treaty. So yes, India is going to use
05:00those caveats, not extradite her anytime soon. But they will be looking at options where India is not
05:08left in an uncomfortable position with a very, very near neighbour. That's Bangladesh. So is this
05:13going to be another country or will Sheikh Hasina be hosted over here? And the respect that India needs
05:19to accord to Awami League given that all other political parties in Bangladesh are never going to
05:24be pro-India, Rajdeep. They're always going to be anti-India. And so India needs to invest in Awami League.
05:31Well, we wait and see whether India will therefore allow Sheikh Hasina to stay on. There's even talk that
05:36she could be tempted to move to Dubai, a country with which Bangladesh has good equations.
05:43We are also joined by Ahmed Mabroor, editor of Bangladesh News. Ahmed, can you tell us what
05:47the mood on the ground there in Dhaka is after this big verdict? I know that the line isn't the best,
05:53but a quick response from you. Okay. First of all, thank you for inviting me. Right now,
05:59Bangladesh is quite peaceful. Actually, some people expected that immediately after the verdict,
06:05there's a reaction. There may be some chaos or turmoil or some violences. But so far,
06:10Dhaka is quite normal and people are living almost a normal life. So I am not watching
06:16anything abnormal or anything conservative. So where are the Awami, are you saying the Awami League
06:22supporters are completely silent at the moment? They haven't responded?
06:27Yeah, they are actually working in the social media, I think, that is their proposition,
06:34but not on the street. So far, you know, in the last couple of days, Amalek protesters,
06:39they have made some small procession or some cocktail blast or something else. But it actually
06:45didn't affect the life, actually. You know that Dhaka is a very much densely populated city. And although
06:52Amalek has tried the label, but I think they have failed to actually hold the citizen life.
06:59Okay. So what you are saying, no protest there at the moment over that verdict from the Awami League,
07:04clearly the government fully in control. Ahmed, I appreciate you joining us for that quick
07:10response. We're having a bit of a problem with his line. Remember, all of this has happened on a day
07:15when Bangladesh's International Crimes Tribunal has sentenced their former Prime Minister Sheikh
07:20Hasina to death for crimes against humanity after a government's violent crackdown on student-led
07:26protests last year. The court held that Hasina knew about the firing and used lethal weapons against
07:31the protesters, calling it a grave violation of human rights. Hasina has hit back and said that the
07:38entire court was a kangaroo court and was that has been a witch hunt against her. Take a look at our top story.
07:50Dhaka is erupting again. Streets packed with protesters, police in full gear and a capital bracing for unrest.
07:59Bangladesh's International Crimes Tribunal on Monday sentenced Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina to death
08:07for the crackdown she ordered on student protesters in 2024 that led to the loss of many lives.
08:14As the verdict was read out, the courtroom erupted with claps, cheers.
08:23The tribunal found Hasina guilty of crimes against humanity,
08:27including conspiracy to commit mass killings. The tribunal held that the former Prime Minister
08:33knowingly authorized a brutal state crackdown. The court ordered death sentence on the charge of
08:39Hasina ordering to kill protesters and on the charge of Hasina's failure to prevent atrocities.
08:48She committed the same crime, same crime that is the crime against humanity on another count
08:54for causing the killings at Ashulia of Sabhar, killing of six persons. For all these three counts,
09:06we have decided to inflict her with only one sentence, that is sentence of death.
09:16And while the courtroom celebrated, outside members of a party, Awami League took to the streets,
09:27protesting the judgment, calling it judicial assassination and warning of a dark precedent.
09:35With tensions climbing, Dhaka is now under an unprecedented security blanket.
09:39Sheikh Hasina is currently in India, where she has taken asylum, at a time when her country finds itself at crossroads.
09:52Reacting to the verdict, oust Bangladesh Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina called the ruling biased,
09:58politically motivated and issued by a rigged tribunal with no democratic mandate.
10:05Bureau Report, India Today.
10:10And joining me now is a very close aide of Sheikh Hasina,
10:13Mohammed Arafat, former INB Minister of Bangladesh, joins me from an undisclosed location.
10:18Appreciate your joining us there, Mr. Arafat. Your first reactions to that verdict,
10:22which has given the death penalty to the former Prime Minister.
10:27Well, this was well predicted. We knew this is how the verdict is going to come out,
10:33because this outcome was pre-decided, and it was all pre-determined.
10:38So, therefore, the verdict that you see, this preceded the trial, basically. So, we are not surprised at all.
10:45You're saying you're not surprised at all, but the charges that were made were very specific. And this,
10:50remember, has got the backing of the UNIS government, the chief advisor to Bangladesh. Are you saying that this entire
10:57judiciary has been captured in a way by the UNIS government or by critics of Sheikh Hasina?
11:04Just take a look at who are the judges. One of the judges, Mr. Shofiul Alam Mahamud, he was never a judge.
11:11He was just appointed judge in the high court only six days before he was placed in the tribunal.
11:16He was linked with the BNP politics. He was the organizing secretary of the BNP's lawyers forum.
11:22Look at who's the chief prosecutor. He's the one who defended the war criminals, who committed war crimes in 1971.
11:27So, look at even the defense lawyer that appointed by the state for Sheikh Hasina, he's also part of the same team.
11:35So, it is a completely rigged trial. It's, you know, and the way they amended the law and reconstituted this, the whole tribunal.
11:44This tribunal was constituted under the Act 1973 to try the war criminals who committed war crime in 1971.
11:51This tribunal does not have any other mandate whatsoever, but they amended it without having a parliament passing that law.
11:57So, it is absolutely a farce. It's a sham. It is just a show that they are staging.
12:03Even, you know, the judges, the prosecution…
12:05So, how do you respond to the demand which is now being made by the Bangladesh government to India that Sheikh Hasina must be extradited under the extradition pact between the two countries?
12:16I pay no attention to this demand. Who are demanding it? The government who seized power by themselves, illegally, unconstitutionally.
12:24It's an illegal and unconstitutional government. Who cares about what they're demanding? They need to go.
12:29There has to be a democratically elected government. There has to be a democratic election, inclusive election, and the power has to go back to the people.
12:37The rule of law needs to return to this country, and then only there will be some dialogue or whatever you have to pay attention.
12:42It is a government…
12:44Yeah, go ahead. Sorry, go ahead.
12:46No, no, you go ahead.
12:47UNUS is backed by the jihadists, the terrorists, the Islamists, the extremists,
12:53Jamaat, who oppose the very liberation of this country. They have now captured the power. They infiltrated into the administration. They're running the country.
13:03Just think about it. When the verdict was being announced, why another group of people were marching
13:09toward the, you know, residents of Bangabondhu on road number 32 with a bulldozer…
13:14So, what do you expect the Indian government… So, what do you expect the Indian government to do?
13:19Because India is now being put, Mr. Arafat, as you know, in a bind.
13:23The Bangladesh regime… I don't think so.
13:24You're saying it's an illegal government, but they're putting pressure on India that India must extradite Sheikh Hasina at the earliest.
13:33See, there's no pressure there. They're just saying it, and because they have to say it just for the sake of it, I don't think so.
13:37I mean, not only India, no other country in the world will have to worry about anything that comes from India's government,
13:44which is an unconstitutional and illegal government whatsoever. Now, so, India, including India, all of…
13:50I mean, rest of the world, you know, world should only focus on to get the democracy back to Bangladesh,
13:55and the rule of law back to Bangladesh. That's what we need to focus on.
13:58So, what happens next? What happens next, Mr. Arafat? What, according to you, happens next?
14:03There's talk of elections being held early next year.
14:05Yes. So, now, see, not only this is the kind of, you know, drama that they are staging in the name of,
14:13in the guise of a judicial process and sentencing Sheikh Hasina, but also they're going ahead with
14:19another rigged election, completely blocking Awam Aliq, Jatio Party, 14-party alliances,
14:25those who account for, you know, more than 50 percent of the people. So, it is another pre-decided
14:30election they're going to go ahead with. So, basically, what we have to do is, with the support of the
14:35people of the country and international community, Awam Aliq, through the political process and peaceful
14:40process, we'll try to get the power back to the people. And this is what we are going to focus on.
14:47We have to fight to get the country back.
14:49You are saying you are going to fight to get the country back? Most of you are in undisclosed locations,
14:54many of you outside the country. You think it's possible that you can return to Bangladesh? You see
14:59Hasina at some stage returning to Bangladesh and fighting elections?
15:04See, the thing is, you know, those of our, you know, the leaders, more than 100 MPs and the ministers,
15:11they're in the jail. They just put them in jail without any, you know, undenied bail.
15:17And anyone they find in Bangladesh, they're putting them in jail. Therefore, we have to be careful about
15:22it. And we're still, no matter why we are, we're coordinating with our activists. We're organizing
15:28them. And we're going to eventually do whatever it takes to get the country back.
15:34Okay. Going to get, do whatever it takes to once again get, you're saying Bangladesh, as you see it,
15:39back on track. You're joining me from an undisclosed location. I appreciate Mr. Arafat,
15:44Muhammad Arafat, former INB minister, close aid of Sheikh Hasina joining me here on the top of news today.
15:50Let me turn from there to our other big story, which is a political story, because it's barely 72
15:56hours since the BJP trounced or the BJP led NDA trounced the RJD, which has suffered one of its
16:05biggest blows. And we've seen a seismic rift within the RJD first family. Lalu Prasad Yadav's daughter,
16:12Rohini Acharya, who left the family and RJD on Saturday, once again, slammed her brother,
16:17Tejasvi and his aides, particularly the aides for the feud in the family. Lalu Yadav's family is
16:23facing a situation where it's now split wide open, even as he himself today endorsed Tejasvi Yadav's
16:32leadership. Take a look at Pariwar war in the Yadavs.
16:36Four days after the huge setback suffered in Bihar assembly elections, newly elected MLA's of the
16:48Rashtriya Janata Dal met at Tejasvi Yadav's residence in Patna on Monday.
16:53At the meeting, Lalu Yadav endorsed Tejasvi's leadership.
17:02Sources tell India today, Tejasvi said he had not anticipated the election outcome.
17:09He took feedback on each seat from the candidates on reasons for their loss.
17:14Tejasvi asked the candidates to gather evidence if there was any foul play.
17:19Lalu's endorsements could not have come at a
17:47better time for Tejasvi. The family stands divided after the election debacle.
17:52The war between the siblings is out in the open.
17:55Daughter of RJD Supremo Rohini Acharya has leveled serious allegations against her own family,
18:14including getting thrashed by a slipper and threat from brother Tejasvi.
18:18Lalu has no background.
18:23Now, after that, you ask Sanjay Ramiz Tejasvi to ask for the staff,
18:27there are no way to talk about the band.
18:27Others have left us from the staff and not to take responsibility to them.
18:33The world is saying that the other people would call the people who were
18:36in this country will raise the house of the house of their house.
18:39But all the people who are friends,
18:41The infighting in Yadav Parivar came out in open a day after Archeri lost miserably in Bihar Poles.
19:05Rohini in a post on X claimed that she was cursed and called dirty and regrets giving kidney to her father.
19:18Sources revealed that Rohini and Tejasvi had an angry tiff over Poles in front of Lali and Rabri.
19:25Lalu's daughter blamed Tejasvi and his courtry for the wipeout.
19:29Tejasvi objected to sister's babs and reportedly flew into a rage, even raising his slippers to beat up Rohini.
19:37Mother Rabri and sister Misa intervened to save Rohini.
19:41A shattered Rohini soon left for Delhi in a huff.
19:46Just months back, Lalu's eldest son, Tej Prata, was expelled from party and family
19:51after he revealed his extramarital relationship and deleted his post.
19:59Tejas Prata has now come out to back Rohini and warned that he won't accept insult to his sister.
20:07Has the double whammy of a pole rout and a family feud delivered a crippling blow to Lalu clan?
20:16With Rohit Singh in Patna, Bureau Report, India Today.
20:19So, as the family feud in the Rashtia Janata Dal plays out in the open after that Bihar election debacle,
20:29I want to raise some big questions.
20:31Are family-based parties running out of currency?
20:35Are dynasties losing steam or are they still in vogue?
20:39Are dynasties against the spirit of democracy?
20:41My first guest is Karthi Chidhamram, MP from the Congress Party.
20:46Appreciate your joining us, Karthi Chidhamram.
20:49Do you agree that family-based parties are now subject to diminishing returns?
20:55People want parties based on meritocracy, not handed out from one generation to the next
21:01as if it's a family heirloom or treasure?
21:03Rajdeep, most political parties in India have a family in their centrality.
21:12Except for, I think, one or two political parties, every political party, right from Kashmir
21:18to Kanyakumari, are family-centric.
21:22This is a South Asian phenomenon.
21:24No, the BJP and the left, with due regard, sir, are not.
21:28Let's, whatever else, the BJP and the left, the BJP president is not appointed party president
21:33because he's the son or daughter of someone.
21:35Neither does that happen in the left.
21:37But in the Congress Party, and as Shashi Tharoor, your own leader, was quoted recently,
21:41it was almost as if the Nehru Gandhi dynasty had ensured that political leadership was birthright.
21:50Obviously, you didn't listen to my, what I said earlier.
21:53Yes.
21:54I clearly said that except for one or two political parties, all other political parties are family-centric.
22:03I did accept that there are exceptions, but vast majority of political parties, right from
22:08Kashmir to Kanyakumari, have a family in their centrality.
22:11That is the socio-economic phenomena, political phenomena of South Asia.
22:17Yes, it will change.
22:19It will change over a period of time.
22:20So, there are parties which have families in their centrality, which continue to win at times,
22:26and there are families which have their centrality in them, which don't do very well in elections.
22:30Even in the recent elections of Bihar, what would you consider, the late Ram Vilas Paswan's party,
22:38my friend Chirag Paswan, would you consider, do you think the BJP found him in a talent contest?
22:45Or did they align with the TDP, with Nara Lokesh, after identifying him in some sort of an entrance exam from the IIT?
22:52They are also family-run parties.
22:54The BJP aligns with them.
22:56So, there are family-run parties which are successful at times, and there are family-run parties which are not successful at times.
23:01I don't think people reject parties merely because they are family-run.
23:05There are other political factors which come into play, why parties win elections and why parties lose elections.
23:11But do you agree that broadly, it's subject to diminishing returns, that family-based parties, in a sense,
23:18are a closed shop for others to occupy the leadership position, and in a new India, you need to move away from that.
23:24Do you agree that we need to move away from family-based parties in the fastest possible time possible?
23:30I think so. I think we should.
23:32You know, since you're a cricket fan, I mean, the greatest democratic exercise in India has happened in the cricket team.
23:37You look at the composition of the cricket team today. They come from aspirational small towns of India.
23:43Yes, political parties must change, but perhaps they will change, but over a period of time.
23:47So, this is not an accusation you can only make on one political party.
23:51There are many, many political parties which are still family-run, and I accept they are fairly closed shops.
23:57But that's the social reality of our politics. It's not just of India, of South Asia.
24:02Look what's happening in Pakistan. Look what happened in Bangladesh. Look what happened in Sri Lanka.
24:06Primary political parties are still family-controlled. Yes, there are times when other forces...
24:12I know that we've had a different kind of a political scenario in Bangladesh, Nepal, and Sri Lanka right now.
24:18But I'm not ever suggesting that any of that thing is perhaps going to happen in India.
24:22Yes, parties must transform themselves, but it will take time.
24:27As the Indian society transforms, that transformation will also happen in parties.
24:31Even the two examples you gave of Communist Party and the BJP, the Communist Party is not successful.
24:36Yes, we can agree that the Communist Party is meritocratic, but the people don't seem to be rewarding the Communist Party because of that.
24:43So, there are success models on either side.
24:45You know, that is very interesting. You mentioned cricket. Let me take that analogy.
24:48My father played for cricket for India. That doesn't mean that I could play cricket for India.
24:52And I wasn't good enough because it was merit-driven.
24:55On the other hand, on the other hand, Karthi Chidhamram can become an MP because P. Chidhamram is a politician.
25:01So, it's spread right across. Across parties, across MPs and worse still, family-based parties are in a way, many believe,
25:12working against the interests of true democracy.
25:14See, as I said, it's a social phenomenon in India where families still play a central role in the societal structure.
25:24It will change over a period of time.
25:26Yes, I am a legatee, and I probably got a fast track to getting a ticket because of my father's son,
25:34but that did not prevent me from losing the 2014 election, did it?
25:39The 2014 election, the political equation was not stacked up in our favor, and I lost the election in 2014.
25:46I won in 2019 and 24 only because the political equation favored me.
25:51So, just because you come from a political family, there's no guarantee of success.
25:55Yes, political parties have to transform, but you can't disqualify somebody only because they are somebody who comes from a political family.
26:03I accept that we must become more meritocratic.
26:05The party leadership must open up, but that's not something which is just confined to a political party.
26:11And that's true of the Congress party as well?
26:13That is a phenomena which is there.
26:13How will you respond to those who suggest that the Congress party has also become a family inheritance?
26:20A party that was seen to be at one stage a mass movement has become a family inheritance.
26:24No one outside the Nehru Gandhi family, it seems now, can take up true leadership and drive your party forward.
26:31You agree or not?
26:32I completely agree with that. But the average worker in the Congress party buys into that leadership.
26:39But that is also a fact. I mean, while I agree that there is a predominant family, which is the centrality of the political party,
26:47but I must also state that there is wide acceptance for that leadership structure within the party.
26:53There doesn't seem to be any kind of clamour to change that structure. Almost 99% of the party members accept that structure.
27:02That might not cut ice with critics or with the general population, but the party cadre seem to accept that.
27:09And that's the case in the DMK. That's the case with the National Conference.
27:14That's the case with the Akhalis. That's the case with the Shif Sena and the breakaway Shif Sena.
27:21The breakaway Shif Sena also is following the same model.
27:24That is the case even with the TMC, which breaks away from the Congress.
27:27That is the case with the Nationalist Congress, which broke away from the Congress party.
27:30That is the case with the TDP.
27:32We can go on and on, but in conclusion, therefore, in conclusion, when you see what's happening in the RJD,
27:40the family feud playing out in public, do you agree that it sends out completely the wrong signal?
27:46That's their internal matter, whether it's up to the family and to that political party to sort it out.
27:50We have seen a similar spat happen in the DMK as well.
27:53We have seen a similar spat happen in the TDP, in the TDP between father-in-law and son-in-law,
28:00and between cobra and brothers-in-law. We have seen that happen.
28:04So, when there are multiple family members vying for the leadership role, it happens.
28:09So, this happens in business empires. This happens in political parties as well.
28:13Let me leave it there, Karthi Chidhamram. You're being pretty candid on that question.
28:18I appreciate you joining me. Thank you so much.
28:21Thank you very much.
28:21Okay, let's widen that debate on family-based parties.
28:26Joining me now, two special guests, Tableen Singh, columnist and author, joins me.
28:32And Sanjay Jha, formerly of the Congress, now a suspended Congress spokesperson, joins me and political analyst.
28:39Appreciate both of you joining us.
28:42Tableen Singh, to you first.
28:43I just had Karthi Chidhamram tell me that family-based parties or dynasties are a South Asian phenomenon.
28:50And the people support them.
28:51So, why should pundits oppose them, is what he says.
28:56You should ask him if anyone would dare to oppose them.
29:00That's the question.
29:01When you have, for instance, when it started actually in my early journalistic career with Sanjay Gandhi,
29:09under the emergency, where he was very insidiously brought in by Indira Gandhi and handed over not just the Congress Party, but India, right?
29:19Who was going to oppose Sanjay Gandhi?
29:21In the statesman office, we would get instructions every day from the PIB saying, put his picture on the front page, etc.
29:29So, you know, these guys, they talk like that without realizing that nobody can oppose them.
29:36And do you think it's subject to diminishing returns, Tableen Singh?
29:40You spoke about the 1970s, how Indira Gandhi institutionalized almost the idea of dynasty within the Congress Party.
29:48Now, everyone's taken a cue across regional parties, across every party.
29:52Is 2025 very different?
29:54You believe India has changed in some way?
29:56The voters have changed?
29:57I think they have.
30:00I think that in Bihar, the rejection of Dejasvi is a sign of that.
30:05Because do you remember that earlier on, it was Rabri that he handed over Bihar to?
30:11And there wasn't that much opposition.
30:14But this time, they've actually voted against.
30:17So I think that there is, and now when I travel, I haven't been in Bihar this time,
30:23but whenever I've traveled and asked people during an election whether they like this, they laugh, right?
30:30And they sometimes, you know, because the thing with political dynasties is that they're very powerful.
30:36So, you know, I mean, when you have a daddy or a mummy who's extremely powerful, you know, people are scared.
30:43They're kind of bahubalis in a different way.
30:48But they cause much damage to Indian democracy.
30:52It's interesting the way you're putting it, because Sanjay Jha, are we clear that this is now subject to diminishing returns?
30:58Because we've seen a number of them return to power also, including family-based parties.
31:03We've seen the National Conference win in Jammu and Kashmir only last year.
31:07We've seen the DMK win, the Tinamul Congress, the Telugu Desam.
31:10Should we read too much into this Bihar verdict and what's happened to the first family of the Yadavs subsequently?
31:20Razdeep, my view is very explicit here and an emphatic no.
31:27Like caste, family dynasty in Indian politics is a reality.
31:32And let's look at some hard data, actually.
31:35I looked up some data before your program.
31:36Out of the 5,203 MLAs, MPs, MLCs put together, around 21%, that's one-fifth of the elected people, or even indirectly elected people, are from family dynasties.
31:53And this cuts across all political parties.
31:56Very interestingly, Razdeep, 18% of BGP's elected legislators, both in parliament and in states, are from political families.
32:05So this is basically, in my opinion, the hard truth that we need to accept.
32:12No, but is there a difference, if I may just intervene, a difference between people becoming MPs and MLAs, because someone in the family is also an MP in MLA, and family-run parties,
32:22where the leadership is almost an entitlement to someone from a particular family, then whether it's the Congress party or whether it's some of these regional parties.
32:30Well, you know, let me answer that by telling you, that's a very convenient classification, right?
32:36Which is what the BGP has used to target the Gandhis.
32:39You know, they come and say, well, you know, we agree that Dushan Singh, and whether it's Jyotir Aditya Sindhya, and Anurag Thakur, Piyush Goel, etc., but they're not leaders.
32:50But they could be leaders, unless the BGP is sending out the message that these guys will never become the head of the BGP.
32:55But even look at Bihar, I think Tavli mentioned Bihar. I can tell you, in Bihar, RGD is still the single largest party in vote-shared.
33:04Chirak Baswan, in my opinion, is the X-factor of the Bihar elections. I don't know how people have missed that.
33:11It is his 6% to 7% votes that have made the NDA the formidable player in Bihar in this election, and highly successful.
33:18If you look at Akhilesh, Samajwadi Party did remarkably well in Uttar Pradesh last year, and that was the year of the Ram Janambhumi and the Ram Temple's consecration.
33:30So I do believe that we got to accept the truth that family dynasties have a legitimate right to be there in politics for the simple reason that they get a public mandate.
33:41And I'm not going to argue for or against it. I do believe that, yes, as long as performance is recognized, even within a family structure, nothing is wrong.
33:50But I will concede, right, that the problem with family parties is that they end up being parochial, they even become monarchies, and end of day, you will say this is not democratically a feasible long-term solution to the problems we have.
34:04You know, Tableed Singh, that's interesting what Sanjay Jha is attempting to suggest that he says if people choose, the argument made is if people choose these parties, then these parties derive a certain legitimacy.
34:21Do you believe that that legitimacy only comes from elections, or does it come, or are they fundamentally anti-democratic?
34:30The idea that a particular post is reserved for someone from a family is anti-democratic.
34:36It can happen in corporate boardrooms. It shouldn't be happening with political parties in a democracy.
34:41No, but the whole point about coming into public life is you come to serve the people.
34:49When you have these dynastic parties, and particularly, and Sandhya is quite wrong,
34:54when you have a political party as your inheritance, it's very different to coming from a political family and standing for election.
35:02You own that political party, and then the state that you rule becomes like a feudal, it's democratic feudalism.
35:11It's electoral feudalism, and it has seriously harmed Indian democracy, in my view,
35:17because people who have a desire to serve the public are often rejected in favour of some little useless heir
35:25who's never held a job down before.
35:29So, you know, I mean, it is a reality, but it's an ugly reality, and we shouldn't call it legitimate.
35:35It is feudalism.
35:37But how will that change? How, in your view, will that change?
35:39And we saw Prashant Kishore, for example, in Bayar, claiming that he was the outsider,
35:44that he was going to challenge these sort of the entrenched party loyalties.
35:48What happened? He ended up with a zero.
35:50So I just wonder, how is any of this ever going to change,
35:53even as we see this Yadha Paribarwad play out in public?
35:57It takes, oh, well, that's the hope, that they all start fighting with each other,
36:03and then they destroy themselves, because really what they're doing is they've turned politics into...
36:10It's not a company. It's in a corporation.
36:14You have a right to hand that over to your children.
36:17You don't have the right to hand over Maharashtra to your heirs or, you know, or India.
36:23Please, let's be serious about this.
36:25It is a reality. It's an ugly reality.
36:28And the quicker they start fighting with each other, the bigger our hopes are of real democracy.
36:35You know, so in conclusion, Sanjay Jha, the word that Tavlin used, which struck with me,
36:40is democratic feudalism. It is democratic feudalism.
36:43Now, you would hope that a modern democracy in the 21st century would challenge feudal tendencies.
36:50And you and I should be encouraging that, rather than saying, look, this is the reality.
36:54We can't do anything about it.
36:56Well, Razdeep, as a lateral, as an outsider in Indian politics,
37:00I actually came from out of the blue into politics.
37:03I should be speaking against the family dominance in Indian politics, but I don't,
37:08because I'm very pragmatic and practical about the realities of India.
37:12You know, it's good to think of a utopian concept, yes.
37:15But at the end of the day, I also recognize I've seen family leaders at very close quarters,
37:20and I realize they have magnetic power.
37:23I mean, it's some kind of an emotional hold, and that is the right of the people of the country.
37:28I am no one to deny the rights of the choices that people make.
37:32I want to make two points to what Tavlin added.
37:35You know, I agree that there are issues that we need to resolve,
37:38but I would worry about the fact that in our country,
37:41we don't address the fundamental problems that are much bigger than Parivarwad.
37:4646% of our MPs in the Lok Sabha are criminals.
37:50They have criminal antecedents.
37:52And Razdeep, some of them are serious.
37:54Around 31% are serious, including rape, murder, arson, loot.
37:59And we are okay with that.
38:00We are kosher with that.
38:02But we are worried about a family.
38:03And what's your second point?
38:04We need to be very clear there.
38:06The second is political funding.
38:08You know, if you don't, electoral bonds is history.
38:11And to my mind, that was the most corrupt mafia operation in political legitimacy in this country.
38:17So democracy has bigger challenges, in my opinion.
38:20Parivarwad is not such a big issue.
38:22It becomes very emotive because the Gandhi family is a low-hanging fruit.
38:26Everyone loves to whack left, right, and center.
38:29But I do feel we should address the bigger problems of criminalization of Indian politics.
38:34You make a good point.
38:35You make a good point.
38:35I'll give Tavlin the final word then.
38:38Sanjay Jha says, focus on the criminalization of politics, the capture of the state apparatus.
38:43That's where the real anti-democratic tendencies are.
38:46Parivarwad, at the end of the day, can be, in a sense, justified.
38:50Because according to him, if that's what the people want, that's what they'll get.
38:53Should we be focusing on Parivarwad and making the Gandhis, as he claims, a soft target?
38:59Or he works for the Gandhis.
39:02He can't speak against them, okay?
39:04So I'm not.
39:04He used to work for them, but go ahead.
39:07You know, you can't say anything against the Gandhi family if you've had anything to do with the Congress.
39:12No, what you need to think about, Mr. Jha, is that why do they want to be in politics?
39:19They're not coming in for public service.
39:21They're coming in to make money.
39:24And to me, corruption is as bad as, you know, anti-democratic as criminals in politics.
39:31You know, those criminals, these are also, in a way, criminals because they are in politics to make money.
39:38There's no other reason.
39:39They're not there for public service.
39:41But that's not true only of families, Tavleen.
39:43That's true of a number of politicians who may not even be linked to politics, who are also corrupting our political landscape.
39:50Absolutely, absolutely.
39:51But, you know, these guys come with a head start.
39:54Okay.
39:55Let me leave it there.
39:56Give me 10 seconds, Raj.
39:57Okay, 10 seconds only.
39:58Yes, Sanjay.
39:5910 seconds.
40:00You know, Tavleen, firstly, I don't work for the Gandhis.
40:03In fact, I have been critical of them when they have gone wrong.
40:05You have admired Mr. Modi.
40:07But let me tell you, you have been critical of the Gandhis in your book, Delhi Darbar, which I read.
40:11And guess what?
40:12Maneka Gandhi and Varun Gandhi, famous Gandhis, by the way, are part of the BJP that Mr. Modi actually uses.
40:20And that's a great paradox of Indian politics.
40:23What's your point?
40:24What's your point?
40:25My point is that BJP is in the of dynasty politics like nobody else.
40:33They are using the Gandhi name, for God's sake.
40:36The BJP is not the personal property of a family.
40:41The BJP so far is not.
40:44Neither is the Congress, for that matter.
40:45Okay.
40:46Let's leave it there.
40:47Let's leave it there.
40:48We've heard two sides.
40:49And I appreciate two very fine guests for joining me and putting their point across.
40:53Tavleen Singh, Sanjay Jah.
40:54Pleasure to have you on the show.
40:56Thank you very much.
40:56Thank you very much.
41:26And several other BLOs have said that long hours and an early December deadline by the
41:33Election Commission have pushed them to breaking point.
41:36The Election Commission now faces questions over workload and accountability.
41:42Take a look at tonight's Get Real India story.
41:44Suicides by two Booth-level officers in two states, Rajasthan and Kerala, have cast a shadow on the Election Commission's special intensive revision of electoral rolls underway in 12 states and union territories.
42:08Mukesh Chand Jangit, a 48-year-old school teacher, took his life in Bindayaka on the outskirts of Jaipur.
42:17Jangit, who worked as a BLO, jumped in front of a train on Sunday.
42:21The family claims Jangit left a suicide note.
42:25The family claims Jangit left a suicide note.
42:26They're blaming SIR workload for the suicide.
42:50Jangit's family accused the police of not carrying out a proper investigation.
43:19The police denied the charge.
43:21In Kerala, 44-year-old Anish George died by suicide allegedly due to pressure linked to SIR duties.
43:49Anish was found dead in Kanur on Sunday.
43:53The district administration, however, denied any link between Anish's death and SIR.
43:59Booth-level officers in the state boycotted work and took out a march on Monday.
44:19Another issue raised by the BLO's is allotment of areas they are not familiar with.
44:33Meanwhile, a BLO threatened to commit suicide at the Katwa BDO office in East Bhardhavan district of Bengal.
44:54The incident took place during the SIR form digitization training.
45:01BLO's in many states are claiming the December 4th deadline for submitting enumeration forms is unrealistic.
45:08Similar demands were made during the Bihar leg of SIR, but the EC did not yield then.
45:14We'll budge this time.
45:15A day after India lost a test match against South Africa at the iconic Eden Gardens in Kolkata, a huge controversy is brewing.
45:33Many are saying that the Team India management is now trying to doctor pitches in a desperate urge to win World Test Championship points.
45:43But as a result, it's a double-edged sword and the opponents are proving too good for India.
45:49South Africa this year, New Zealand last year.
45:52Is there a huge question mark over the coach, Gautam Gambhir,
45:56and indeed over the Indian team's performance against pin bowling in home conditions?
46:02In a moment, I'll be joined by Sunil Gavaskar, but first to take a look at this story.
46:08In by an absolute mile.
46:11That's a good one.
46:12Yes, it is.
46:13It's the breakthrough for South Africa.
46:18Oh, the edge.
46:20This is brilliant bowling.
46:21Problems are mounting on the Indian test team and coach Gautam Gambhir.
46:26A timid batting display from the Indian team has inflicted unprecedented humiliation
46:32on a team that went down like a pack of cards against the Proteas.
46:37Cotton ball!
46:38The point is that you should be able to know how to play turn, and this is what we asked
46:45for, and this is what we got.
46:46I thought the curator was very supportive, and I still believe that irrespective of how
46:50the wicket was, it was 1-23 was chasable, and I felt that if you are willing to put your
46:56head down, and if you have a solid defence, if you have the temperament, you can definitely
47:00score runs.
47:00Yes, it might not be a wicket which is going to be very, very flamboyant where you can play
47:04those big shots, but if you are willing to put your head down, definitely it's a wicket
47:08where you can score.
47:08The Eden Gardens pitch proved to be an absolute lottery for the spinners, who just had to land
47:17the ball in the right areas and let the pitch do the rest.
47:20That's a lovely delivery here from Aidan Markham, it spun across the face of the blade.
47:27But it was at the behest of the Indian team that these conditions were laid out.
47:32Earlier the pitch was supposed to aid the batters at the start, but India ended up getting caught
47:38in their own spin web.
47:40This is exactly the pitch we were looking for.
47:43This is exactly the pitch.
47:44The curator was very, very helpful and this is exactly what we wanted and this is exactly
47:49what we got.
47:50It was exactly a year back that the New Zealand spinners ran riot against India, picking 34
47:57of the 40 wickets in the last two tests, but the Indian test team has neither learned their
48:03lesson nor improved their skills to ward off the spin challenge.
48:08Kambhir can be happy with the work that he's done as coach in white ball cricket, but his
48:24returns with the red ball have left a lot to be desired.
48:29In the last six matches at home, he's won just two and lost four.
48:35If India suffer a second straight home series loss, as this is just a two-match series against
48:41South Africa, his time in the dressing room could surely be up.
48:47Sports Bureau, India Today.
48:49Let's go to the great legend Sunil Gavaskar himself to get his view on the pitch controversy.
48:56Mr. Gavaskar, appreciate you joining us.
48:59Now, weighing in on the Eden pitch controversy, Indian coach Gautam Gambhir claimed there were
49:03no demons in the pitch, even as the likes of Saurabh Ganguly are already raising questions
49:08over the quality of the pitch.
49:09Was it?
49:10What is your view?
49:11Do you agree this pitch was unfit for test cricket?
49:14No, I totally agree with what the Indian coach has said, because there were no demons in
49:22the pitch.
49:23Yes, the odd ball was going to turn on day three.
49:25I don't think it was a pitch where you get all out for 90 runs like the Indian team did.
49:33124 was gettable.
49:36And gettable with, you know, at least five wickets in half.
49:41But, sir, you are saying that this pitch was not unfit.
49:45But the truth of the matter is, sir, right from day one, we saw uneven bounce.
49:49The Pacers benefited from it.
49:51There was sharp turn.
49:53Puffs of dust were coming out from the pitch.
49:55It started crumbling from day one.
49:58How can we say that this was a good cricket wicket or a wicket fit for a five-day test match?
50:06No, it did start to crumble from day one.
50:09Not at all.
50:09You know, on Indian pitches, you are likely to get a little puff of dust coming.
50:17But, no, it wasn't a pitch which was crumbling from day one.
50:21Not at all.
50:22So, I don't think it is something where you could say it was a bad pitch.
50:30It was just that the Indians didn't learn anything from what Temba Bhavuma did.
50:35Temba Bhavuma showed you.
50:37Somebody who plays on bouncy pitches back home, that good technique, good temperament,
50:43throwing a lot of patience, playing with soft hands, not looking to jab at the ball,
50:49is something which can help you to score runs.
50:52And what did India need?
50:54India needed one batter to bat like Temba Bhavuma and score 55, knockout,
51:00and they would have got to 124 without a problem.
51:03So, it's interesting what you're saying.
51:05You're saying it's not so much about the quality of the pitch, but the quality of batting.
51:09Because, let's be honest also, Mr. Gavaskar, this is the same team which was routinely scoring 400,
51:14500 runs in every match in England just a few months ago.
51:18So, they are not a bad batting team, surely?
51:22Yes.
51:23Yes, there is an issue when the ball is doing just a little bit.
51:29The pitches in England were pretty, what you would call, flat pitches.
51:33Now, if you want to play test cricket on flat pitches, fine.
51:36But if you want to play cricket where there is a little challenge,
51:39that it's not shut for the bowlers completely,
51:44that the bowlers also get a little bit of help,
51:46then you want to play on a pitch where there might be a little bit of grass,
51:50or there might be a little bit of, which will help see movement,
51:53or there might be just a little area where the spinners can come into play.
51:59And that is what will make test cricket far more interesting.
52:02But, sir, with due regard, the match ends up in three days.
52:06Now, we have ended up losing in India four test matches in a row
52:10against the top countries, which has not happened before.
52:13Something is seriously wrong, sir.
52:15Either the other countries are adjusting faster to such wickets,
52:19or as you said, our batsmen need to play spin better.
52:22Surely, we would have been better off playing on a good cricket wicket
52:25that lasts five days, rather than a wicket that reduces batting
52:28to a bit of a lottery.
52:30Whoever wins the toss gets a huge advantage, sir.
52:34No, no, no. This one was not a lottery.
52:36I don't think we should be using all those terms like this was a lottery
52:39and all that, because this wasn't a bad pitch.
52:41There were no demons in the pitch.
52:43I totally agree with the Indian coach.
52:46You did not, the Indian batters in both the innings
52:49did not show the resolve to try and stick around there.
52:55Look, you've got to keep your ego in the change room.
52:57You cannot also be mentally into a space where somebody tells you,
53:03this pitch is doing this, so you better go and smash the ball around.
53:06You cannot know.
53:07Temba Bhavuma showed you how you should bat.
53:10And that is what, and I can understand, sometimes, you know,
53:13team meetings are held the previous day, and you forget the next morning.
53:18But here, just an hour or two earlier,
53:21the South African captain has given you an exhibition of batting,
53:24how to bat on a pitch where there was just a little bit of turn.
53:27You saw Simon Hammer.
53:29How many deliveries did he turn?
53:31You saw Keshav Maharaj.
53:32How many deliveries did he turn?
53:34He didn't.
53:35The odd ball, yes.
53:36On day three, you are going to get the odd ball, which is going to turn.
53:40But the point is that the Indian batters, did they show the requisite temperament?
53:46I'm not even talking about technique.
53:48You saw Yashashvi Jaiswal start in the second innings.
53:51Did you see the first three balls, the kind of shots that he attempted?
53:54Three balls, first over, this is what you play?
53:59Eventually, he got out to a very good delivery.
54:01That's another matter.
54:03But this is it.
54:04So, temperamentally, you're told,
54:05while the new ball is there,
54:07but that is not what test cricket is.
54:11Test cricket, you can leave deliveries alone.
54:14You can wait for the scorable day.
54:17You can look for ones and twos.
54:18How many times are you looking for ones and twos?
54:21You can't be looking all the time for boundaries and sixes.
54:23No, if you're saying there's a problem with temperament as much as technique,
54:29should we be making wholesale changes?
54:32Is this the IPL effect, which has meant whole temperament technique,
54:35the idea of batting time no longer exists?
54:37Should we make wholesale changes in the team?
54:41Well, you can't make wholesale changes because that does not send a good signal.
54:46But if you want to look at the temperament of some of the guys
54:51and you want to then go by that,
54:53do you think that person has got the temperament as well as the technique?
54:57If the person doesn't have the temperament or technique,
54:59and I'm not saying Jaiswal doesn't have it.
55:01Maybe he didn't get it right in one game.
55:03He's a very, very talented cricketer.
55:05But his approach was, you know, in the second innings was the first three deliveries were a little bit hard to understand.
55:12They were, you know, but I think what you really need is to look at the temperament and the technique that the others have or did not have.
55:20And therefore, you want to make your decisions on that.
55:23But, you know, with a test match with just a two- or three-day gap, you're not going to be able to make those changes.
55:29None of the international, India international players played domestic cricket.
55:34But domestic cricket is where you get pitches where the ball will grip and turn a little bit because teams are trying to get points so that they qualify for the knockouts.
55:41And so you look at the domestic scorers, look at the heavy domestic scorers, and then pick them for test matches because they are used to playing on pitches like this.
55:51Pick them for test matches in India because they are used to playing on these kind of pitches to pick them.
55:55But you don't pick them because you've already got an international side going.
56:00That is the thing.
56:01You know, you're making a very good point.
56:03Pick players based on their domestic form.
56:05Maybe for the next two or three days, these players should watch your great innings in your final test against Pakistan 1987.
56:12They can learn how to play with soft hands.
56:15The way to play on a sharply turning pitch, Mr. Gavaskar.
56:21No, I think they have to just look at what Temba Bhavuma did.
56:25Okay.
56:25Temba Bhavuma showed how to play on a pitch where there was something.
56:30Even our bowlers, Jadeja, Akshar, did not turn every ball.
56:34The odd ball was turning.
56:37That's it.
56:38Kuldeep, yes, being a wrist spinner, can turn the ball on glass.
56:40Wrist spinners turn the ball on glass.
56:42They don't need any assistance from the pitch.
56:44But how many of Jadeja's deliveries and Akshar Patel deliveries kicked and bounced?
56:49Not many.
56:50Yes, the odd one did.
56:51They are very good spinners.
56:52That's why.
56:53But that is why I'm saying, you know, when we're talking about the pitch, pitch, pitch,
56:57I think you should be actually talking about the batting, batting, batting, rather than the pitch.
57:02Okay.
57:02You've given us a one-liner.
57:03Don't talk about pitch, pitch, pitch.
57:05Talk about batting, batting, batting.
57:07Sunil Gavaskar, we may agree to disagree on this point, but thank you very much for joining
57:11me here on the news today.
57:13I want to leave you, though, with our image of the day.
57:162025 is coming to an end.
57:18And in the world of tennis, it will be remembered for this classic rivalry building between Carlos
57:23Alcaraz and Yannick Sinha.
57:25The duo faced off each other in the four Grand Slam finals and in the ATP championship at the end of the year.
57:31It was Sinha who beat Alcaraz and defended his ATP finals crown in Turin.
57:37Guess what?
57:37After this game, they played 3,302 points with each other over the course of their rivalry,
57:43and they've won 1,651 points each.
57:48Quite remarkable.
57:50These are the two players who've taken over from the Novak, Roger and Rafael generation.
57:55We're going to see plenty of more of them in the next decade.
57:59Thanks for watching.
58:00Stay well, stay safe.
58:02Good night, Shubratri.
58:03Jai Hind.
58:04Namaskar.
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