00:00Okay, let's widen that debate on family-based parties. Joining me now, two special guests,
00:05Tableen Singh, columnist and author joins me, and Sanjay Jha, formerly of the Congress, now a
00:13suspended Congress spokesperson, joins me and political analyst. Appreciate both of you joining
00:18us. Tableen Singh, to you first. I just had Karthi Chidambaram tell me that family-based parties or
00:24dynasties are a South Asian phenomenon. The people support them. So why should pundits oppose them,
00:31is what he says. You should ask him if anyone would dare to oppose them. That's the question.
00:37When you have, for instance, when it started actually in my early journalistic career with
00:45Sanjay Gandhi, under the emergency, where he was very insidiously brought in by Indira Gandhi
00:51and handed over not just the Congress party, but India, right? Who was going to oppose Sanjay Gandhi?
00:58In the statesman office, we would get instructions every day from the PIB saying, put his picture on
01:04the front page, etc. So, you know, these guys, they talk like that without realizing that nobody can
01:11oppose them. And do you think it's subject to diminishing returns, Tableen Singh? You spoke about
01:17the 1970s, how Indira Gandhi institutionalized almost the idea of dynasty within the Congress
01:24Party. Now, everyone's taken a cue across regional parties, across every party. Is 2025 very different?
01:30You believe India has changed in some way? The voters have changed?
01:34I think they have. I think that in Bihar, the rejection of Dejasvi is a sign of that. Because do you
01:42remember that earlier on, it was Rabri that he handed over Bihar to? And there wasn't that much
01:49opposition. But this time, they've actually voted against. So I think that there is, and now when I
01:56travel, I haven't been in Bihar this time. But whenever I've traveled and asked people during an
02:02election, whether they like this, they laugh, right? And they sometimes, you know, because the
02:08thing with political dynasties is that they're very powerful. So, you know, I mean, when you have a
02:15daddy or a mummy who's extremely powerful, you know, people are scared that they're kind of
02:21bahubalis in a different way. But they cause much damage to Indian democracy.
02:29It's interesting the way you're putting it. Because, Sanjay Jha, are we clear that this is
02:33now subject to diminishing returns? Because we've seen a number of them return to power also,
02:38including family-based parties. We've seen the National Conference win in Jammu and Kashmir only
02:43last year. We've seen the DMK win, the Thinamul Congress, the Telugu Desam. Should we read too much
02:49into this Bihar verdict and what's happened to the first family of the Yadavs subsequently?
02:57Rasip, my view is very explicit here and an emphatic no. Like caste, family dynasty in Indian
03:06politics is a reality. And let's look at some hard data. Actually, I looked up some data before your
03:13program. Out of the 5,203 MLAs, MPs, MLCs put together, around 21%, that's one-fifth of the
03:23elected people or even indirectly elected people are from family dynasties. And this cuts across all
03:31political parties. Very interestingly, Rajdeep, 18% of BGP's elected legislators, both in parliament
03:39and in states, are from political families. So this is basically, in my opinion, the hard
03:46truth that we need to accept. No, but is there a difference, if I may just intervene, a difference
03:51between people becoming MPs and MLAs because someone in the family is also an MP in MLA and
03:57family-run parties where the leadership is almost an entitlement to someone from a particular
04:03family than whether it's the Congress party or whether it's some of these regional parties?
04:07Well, you know, let me answer that by telling you, that's a very convenient classification,
04:12right? Which is what the BGP has used to target the Gandhis. You know, they come and say, well,
04:17you know, we have, we agree that Dushyan Singh and whether it's ex-Jayati Raditya Sindhya and
04:22Anurag Thakur, Piyush Goel, et cetera, but we are, they're not leaders, but they could be leaders
04:27unless the BGP is sending out the message that these guys will never become the head of the BGP.
04:32But even look at Bihar, I think Tavlin mentioned Bihar. I can tell you in Bihar, RGD is still the
04:38single largest party in vote share. Chirag Paswan, in my opinion, is the X factor of the Bihar
04:45elections. I don't know how people have missed that. It is his six to seven percent votes that
04:50have made the NDA the formidable player in Bihar in this election and highly successful.
04:55If you look at Akhilesh, Samajwadi party did remarkably well in Uttar Pradesh last year.
05:02And that was the year of the Ram Janam Bhumi and the Ram Temple's consecration. So I do believe
05:07that we got to accept the truth that family dynasties have a legitimate right to be there
05:14in politics for the simple reason that they get a public mandate. And I am not going to argue for
05:19it against it. I do believe that, yes, as long as performance is recognized, even within a family
05:25structure, nothing is wrong. But I will concede, right, that the problem with family parties is
05:30that they end up being parochial. They even become monarchies. And end of day, you will say this is
05:36not democratically a feasible long term solution to the problems.
05:40Okay. You know, Tablin Singh, that's interesting what Sanjay Jha is attempting to suggest that he says
05:48if people choose, the argument made is if people choose these parties, then these parties derive a
05:56certain legitimacy. Do you believe that that legitimacy only comes from elections or does it come
06:02or are they fundamentally anti-democratic? The idea that a particular post is reserved for someone from
06:10a family is anti-democratic. It can happen in corporate boardrooms. It shouldn't be happening
06:16with political parties in a democracy. No, but the whole point about coming into public life
06:22is you come to serve the people. When you have these dynastic parties, and particularly, and Sanjay is
06:29quite wrong, when you have a political party as your inheritance, it's very different to coming from a
06:37political family and standing for election. You own that political party. And then the state that you rule
06:43becomes like a few, it's democratic feudalism. It's electoral feudalism. And it has seriously harmed
06:52Indian democracy, in my view, because people who have a desire to serve the public are often
06:59rejected in favor of some little useless heir who's never held a job down before. So, you know, I mean,
07:06it is a reality, but it's an ugly reality. And we shouldn't call it legitimate. It is feudalism.
07:13But how will that change? How, in your view, will that change? We saw Prashant Kishor, for example,
07:18in B.R., claiming that he was the outsider, that he was going to challenge these sort of the
07:23entrenched party loyalties. What happened? He ended up with a zero. So I just wonder, how is any of this
07:28ever going to change, even as we see this Yadap Parivarwad play out in public?
07:33It takes, oh, well, that's the hope, that they all start fighting with each other. And then they
07:40destroy themselves. Because really, what they're doing is, they've turned politics into, it's not
07:47a company. It's in a corporation. You have a right to hand that over to your children. You don't have
07:54the right to hand over Maharashtra to your heirs. Or, you know, or India. Please, let's be serious
08:01about this. It is a reality. It's an ugly reality. And the quicker they start fighting with each other,
08:08the bigger our hopes of real democracy.
08:11You know, so, in conclusion, Sanjay Jha, the word that Tavlin used, which struck with me, is democratic
08:17feudalism. It is democratic feudalism. Now, you would hope that a modern democracy in the 21st century
08:24would challenge feudal tendencies. And you and I should be encouraging that, rather than saying,
08:30look, this is the reality. We can't do anything about it.
08:32Well, Razdeep, as a lateral, as an outsider in Indian politics, I actually came from out of the
08:38blue into politics. I should be speaking against the family dominance in Indian politics. But I don't,
08:45because I'm very pragmatic and practical about the realities of India. You know, it's good to think
08:50of a utopian concept, yes. But at the end of the day, I also recognize I've seen family leaders at very
08:56close quarters. And I realize they have magnetic power. I mean, it's some kind of an emotional hold.
09:01And that is the right of the people of the country. I am no one to deny the rights of the choices that
09:08people make. I want to make two points to what Tavlin added. You know, I agree that there are issues
09:13that we need to resolve. But I would worry about the fact that in our country, we don't address the
09:19fundamental problems that are much bigger than Parivarwad. 46% of our MPs in the Lok Sabha are criminals.
09:26They have criminal antecedents. And Rajdeep, some of them are serious. Around 31% are serious,
09:32including rape, murder, arson, loot. And we are okay with that. We are kosher with that.
09:38But we are worried about a family. And what's your second point?
09:41We need to be very clear there. The second is political funding. You know, if you don't,
09:46electoral bonds is history. And to my mind, that was the most corrupt mafia operation
09:50in political legitimacy in this country. So democracy has bigger challenges, in my opinion.
09:57Parivarwad is not such a big issue. It becomes very emotive because the Gandhi family is a low-hanging
10:02fruit. Everyone loves to whack left, right and center. But I do feel we should address the bigger
10:07problems of criminalization of Indian politics.
10:10You make a good point. You make a good point. I'll give Tavlin the final word then.
10:14Sanjay Jha says, focus on the criminalization of politics, the capture of the state apparatus.
10:19That's where the real anti-democratic tendencies are. Parivarwad, at the end of the day,
10:24can be, in a sense, justified. Because according to him, if that's what the people want,
10:29that's what they'll get. Should we be focusing on Parivarwad and making the Gandhis, as he claims,
10:34a soft target? He works for the Gandhis. He can't speak against them, okay? So I'm not...
10:41He used to work for them, but I... Yeah, but go ahead.
10:43You know, you can't say anything against the Gandhi family if you've had anything to do with the
10:48Congress. No, what you need to think about, Mr. Jha, is that why do they want to be in politics?
10:55They're not coming in for public service. They're coming in to make money. And to me,
11:01corruption is as bad as, you know, anti-democratic as criminals in politics. You know, those criminals,
11:09these are also, in a way, criminals because they are in politics to make money. There's no other
11:15reason. They're not there for public service. But that's not true only of families, Tablin.
11:19That's true of a number of politicians who may not even be linked to politics, who are also
11:24corrupting our political landscape. So... Absolutely, absolutely. But, you know,
11:28these guys come with a head start. Okay. Let me leave it there.
11:33Give me 10 seconds, Raz. Okay, 10 seconds only. Yes, Sanjay. 10 seconds.
11:37You know, Tablin, firstly, I don't work for the Gandhis. In fact, I have been critical of them
11:40when they have gone wrong. You have admired Mr. Modi, but let me tell you, you have been
11:44critical of the Gandhis in your book, Delhi Darbar, which I read. And guess what?
11:50Maneka Gandhi and Varun Gandhi, famous Gandhis, by the way, are part of the BJP that Mr. Modi
11:55actually uses. And that's the great paradox of Indian politics.
11:59What's your point? What's your point?
12:02My point is that BJP is the BJP is in the optimistic politics like nobody else.
12:10Okay. They are using the Gandhi name, for God's sake.
12:12The BJP is not the personal property of a family. The BJP so far is not.
12:20Neither is the Congress, for that matter.
12:22Okay. Let's leave it there. Let's leave it there. We've heard two sides.
12:26And I appreciate two very fine guests for joining me and putting their point across.
12:30Tablin Singh, Sanjay Jha, pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you very much.
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