Special Report: Why Are Educated Indian Professionals Falling Prey To Radicalisation?

India Today

This special report examines the growing concern of radicalisation among educated professionals in India, questioning why individuals such as doctors are being drawn to extremist ideologies. The discussion, featuring host Gaurav Sawant with Lt Gen Syed Ata Hasnain (Retd.), former IPS officer Yashwardhan Azad, Director at CLAWS Dr. Tara Kartha, and Islamic scholar Dr. Zeenat Shaukat Ali, explores the role of adversaries, the effectiveness of current de-radicalisation strategies, and the responsibility of community leaders. Dr. Tara Kartha states, 'it is the educated who are most prone to radicalization.' The panel debates whether India is too politically correct and fails to tackle the ideological indoctrination at its source, with calls for stronger action against radical preachers and the promotion of moderate religious voices to counter the narrative.

Transcript

00:00Sir, you've served in the Kashmir Valley.

00:03We've seen waves of violence and peace and then violence and peace and terror and peace in the Kashmir Valley.

00:10Who knows that better than you?

00:12But under the radar, is that radicalization and indoctrination constantly happening?

00:18And is India, the entire country and the community itself not doing enough to de-radicalize these elements?

00:25See, Gaurav, it is an obvious thing that your adversaries will always work in different domains.

00:34One may be the use of terror, terror modules, and one may be in the cyber domain, in the technical domain,

00:42and one is going to be always working on the ideological domain.

00:46Right from the 70s, this has been the Zia Doctrine work on the ideological part,

00:52make sure that cultivate enough people, cultivate networks.

00:56The term network is only emerging on our channels today.

01:00Everyone was only talking about terrorism so far.

01:03Now at last, people are talking about networks and realizing that it is networks which support terrorism.

01:09And radicalism is something which is ongoing at all times.

01:13The way you can overcome it is your narrative of counter-radicalism has to be stronger than that of radicalism.

01:21Are we too weak, too politically correct?

01:26I want to understand from you, why is it either it's not happening or it's not effective?

01:31You know, why would a Dr. Muzammal or a Dr. Adil or a Dr. Muhammad Umar or Dr. Shaheen,

01:38she's from Uttar Pradesh, or Dr. Ansari, they have the best of this country.

01:43They're getting the best.

01:44They're doctors, they're doing so well.

01:46They're MBBS doctors.

01:47Why are they getting radicalized in your appreciation, sir?

01:50Gaurav, this is oversimplification of the problem.

01:53As I told you, the adversary is focused.

01:57The adversary is strong.

01:58It's been doing it for far long.

02:00We are entering into this aspect of counter-radicalization right at the early stages now.

02:06The realization is coming.

02:07I would ask any fellow panelists, how many people do you know from different communities

02:13who are at all involved with or are aware of various tenets of Islam?

02:19Hardly anyone at all.

02:20Right?

02:20So what happens is that when you speak to people, you don't even understand them, you don't recognize

02:27them, and they continue to function in the manner, in this manner, cultivated from all

02:32kinds of ideological propaganda, which keeps coming from abroad.

02:36My strongest recommendation is you have to find a moderate clergy, and there are lots and lots

02:42of them in India, who have to come forward, and they are the ones who have to preach the

02:48better aspects of Islam to all these people.

02:52The problem is that the negative aspects of Islam are actually proliferating in this environment,

02:57and that is what is adding to the problem.

03:00Dr. Azad, is that also, Mr. Yeshu Ardhan Azad, is that also your appreciation that, you know,

03:07everyone's being so politically correct, you brush it under the carpet.

03:10Yes, there's a problem.

03:11Let's just deal with the armed terrorist once he's arrested, either after the, you know,

03:16terrorist activity has happened, or just before it is to happen, and then nobody touches

03:20that madarsa where it's happened because, oh my God, people will feel bad.

03:24Nobody touches that Malvi, oh my God, he will feel bad.

03:27Is it time to go after these elements at these places, and then deal with it at multiple levels?

03:35And are we doing it, or we are not doing it?

03:37Well, you know, that is a problem which is partial.

03:41If you see, radicalization all over the world is happening.

03:46And if you see that couple which was there in the USA in the San Bandar Dino attack, 2015,

03:51they were very well cultural, socially, you know, and the FBI was shocked that how could

03:57people of this caliber be radicalized?

04:01This has happened in other parts.

04:039-11 had the topmost software engineers, pilots, etc.

04:06In France, you have people being de-radicalized.

04:10In India, I feel one is, of course, the sources of indoctrination, wherever the radicalization

04:17elements are there, as you rightly said, Malvis, etc.

04:20I agree with General Hassan when you must use the moderate clergy for it.

04:24But, you know, de-radicalization cannot be left only to the police or the intelligence agencies.

04:30I'll give you a very simple example.

04:32Our chief ministers, they must now engage with the educated middle class.

04:38They should engage with the educated youth and not only do everything for the voters.

04:44A very important part of this element is that no one should feel aloof that he's not a part

04:51of the state.

04:52I mean, that is where the de-radicalization begins.

04:55And that is why when you strengthen the democracy, when you strengthen the voices of the people,

05:01it is very, very advantageous in the interest of the nation.

05:04But these elements, anyway, have the best of our society.

05:07You know, I fail to understand why would those who are at the center, I mean, doctors,

05:12Dr. Tara Kartha, are second only to God in our country.

05:16Nobody looks at their religion.

05:17They just look at them as healers.

05:19But, you know, these healers are actually merchants, if there is evidence against all

05:24of them, then they're truly merchants of death, masquerading as healers.

05:28You know, and why should they feel aloof?

05:30They have no reason to feel aloof unless they are being misled.

05:35And, you know, my only appreciation is that these elements must be dealt with as, with the

05:40strongest possible, you know, action against them as per law, so that one, it serves as a

05:46deterrent, and two, the Malwis who are indoctrinating them should perhaps be dealt with even more

05:52harshly, Dr. Tara Kartha, or that enabling environment.

05:56I 100% agree with you.

05:59This, the strongest, I mean, what the Home Minister has said, I absolutely back, you need to give

06:04the strongest possible punishment to these people.

06:06I just want to make one small differentiation from what I was told.

06:10The Malwi was used by Muslim to get the radicalization ring going.

06:15So, he was a sort of a counter in this whole game.

06:19That is one.

06:19Number two is, I will agree with you that there is a responsibility among religious leaders

06:27to sort of talk to people and tell them what this, I mean, the religion is all about.

06:34It's after all, it's a very, very fine religion in its own standing.

06:38I mean, why can't that, I mean, there are different variations, right?

06:41If I want to show something, I want to preach something as being terrible, which you also

06:45see in, well, in a lot of other, you've got Christian fundamentalism, you've got Hindu

06:50fundamentalism at various points.

06:52It's how you present it.

06:54And number three, your point about education, I want to say this very clearly.

06:58It is the educated who are most prone to radicalization.

07:02And there's a long history, there's a long, Ayman al-Zawahiri, the number two of Al-Qaeda

07:09who was a medical doctor.

07:11Osama bin Laden himself was an engineer by profession.

07:14And somewhere down the line, you know, Zeenat Shaukat Ali, is it the failure of the community

07:21or the country to isolate these elements, to call out these elements, to take stern action

07:27against these elements?

07:28Because clearly, they cannot be cocooned, they cannot be treated with kid gloves.

07:34The more you do that, the more you'll encourage such elements.

07:38I agree with you.

07:40I agree with you.

07:41I couldn't agree with you more.

07:42You know, as a person who teaches this subject and who's supposed to be a professor of Islamic

07:49studies, I am quite shocked that we should have these kind of people who teach this reverse

07:55kind of understanding.

07:57And, you know, what I was telling you at our last show was that, you know, when they,

08:01you see, there are certain traditions, like a prayer session.

08:05So when the imams are delivering that session on a Friday, that lecture should be written

08:11out, scanned, looked into, and then delivered.

08:15You see, so that every element of that peaks of the Islamic values of peace, of bridge building,

08:22of non-violence, of understanding.

08:24I've got a whole book on this, which has now been translated in English, which is called

08:28Winning the Peace Equest.

08:30It has been translated by the NCPO and in Delhi into Urdu for the simple reason that there

08:36are ulama who have written on non-violence.

08:40They have condemned suicide bombings.

08:42They have condemned violence.

08:44And they have quoted the verses.

08:45And when I went to request them to write this, you know, they said that, madam...

08:49No, Saudi Arabia, where the religion originated, is de-radicalizing elements.

08:55Saudi Arabia is de-radicalizing elements.

08:57Saudi Arabia is looking at the moderate form.

09:00It's happening across the, you know, the GCC countries.

09:04It's happening in the UAE.

09:05It's happening in Saudi Arabia.

09:06But here in South Asia, they seem to be getting more radicalized now.

09:10You know, I mean, how can one be more pious than the Pope?

09:13One fails to understand.

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