Crown Court - A Working Girl (1976) - video Dailymotion

Jezza

Sylvia Turner, a prostitute, was arrested for soliciting for an immoral purpose, but found not guilty. The police were not satisfied with the result and arrested her for perjury at her original trial. Richard Wilson, Sharon Duce and Myra Frances star.

Transcript

00:00:00Transcription by CastingWords

00:00:30We'll have to work on the assumption that the trial will go ahead.

00:00:32Yeah, but that's not fair.

00:00:33Well, we'll see. I'm afraid there's been a very recent judgment against our point in the House of Lords.

00:00:37What do they know about it?

00:00:39The law.

00:00:40But they're just there to support police.

00:00:42Well, we'll try.

00:00:43Now, you'd better go and report to the policeman, and good luck.

00:00:46Oh, thank you.

00:00:50Pretty girl.

00:00:52Well, you've got her address in your brief. I think her rates are competitive.

00:00:56Well, I don't think she'll be available for quite a few months.

00:01:00If the trial goes ahead at all...

00:01:02Oh, I think it will.

00:01:03Sylvia Turner, on this indictment, you were charged with perjury, contrary to Section 1 of the Perjury Act, 1911.

00:01:18The particulars are that on the 16th of May, 1976, in the Fultest of Magistrates' Court,

00:01:23you knowingly gave false evidence on oath that on the 12th of February, 1976, you were not soliciting for immoral purposes,

00:01:30but as, in fact, you were.

00:01:32How do you plead to this charge? Are you guilty or not guilty?

00:01:35Not guilty.

00:01:36My lord, I request that you dismiss this charge on the grounds that it is oppressive and an abuse of this court and a process of law.

00:01:45I should like to urge...

00:01:46Before you urge anything, Miss Scott, should we not ask the jury to retire?

00:01:52Well, as your lordship pleases.

00:01:53However, the defence is perfectly willing for the jury to hear all the argument.

00:01:56In certain circumstances, we feel it might help the defence and the process of justice.

00:02:01Hmm.

00:02:03While asking the jury to note that the defence and the process of justice are not necessarily the same thing.

00:02:11Well, I have no objection to allowing the jury to remain.

00:02:15Mr Parsons?

00:02:16I have no objection, my lord.

00:02:17Very well.

00:02:19Members of the jury,

00:02:21you are about to hear a legal argument between counsel

00:02:24as to whether this trial should proceed at all.

00:02:29It is not part of the trial

00:02:30in the sense that you have to decide anything.

00:02:34Normally, you would retire at this point.

00:02:37But the defence counsel has requested

00:02:38that you should remain

00:02:40and I have decided to allow it.

00:02:43Miss Scott.

00:02:46In today's trial for perjury,

00:02:48the jury has been selected from members of the public

00:02:50whose names appeared on the electoral register

00:02:52and who are eligible for jury service.

00:02:55Mr Parsons appears for the prosecution

00:02:57and Miss Scott for the defence.

00:02:59Mr Justice Crowther-Smith presides in the case of the Queen against Turner.

00:03:07My lord,

00:03:08this charge arises out of the events at a trial

00:03:11in Fulchester Magistrates Court.

00:03:13Miss Turner was tried for a crime

00:03:14for which she was found not guilty.

00:03:17The police re-arrested her

00:03:18and have charged her with perjury

00:03:19on the basis of her evidence.

00:03:22My lord,

00:03:22it is a long-standing principle in common law

00:03:24that a person should not stand in double jeopardy,

00:03:27that he should not

00:03:28subsequently be tried for an offence

00:03:30for which he has been found not guilty.

00:03:32I would submit, my lord,

00:03:34that bringing a charge of perjury

00:03:35on the basis of the defendant's evidence

00:03:37amounts exactly to this

00:03:38and therefore the charge is

00:03:40abusive and oppressive.

00:03:43Mr Parsons.

00:03:43My lord,

00:03:45I'm sure your lordship would be well aware

00:03:47of the recent case of Regina v. Humphreys

00:03:49in the House of Lords.

00:03:51I have the weekly law report

00:03:53dated June 4th, 1976, here.

00:03:55Now, in that case,

00:03:56their lordships unanimously decided

00:03:59that in a very similar case,

00:04:01that is a case of perjury

00:04:02arising out of another trial,

00:04:04that the case was properly brought

00:04:06and that the issue is toppled

00:04:08does not apply in criminal law.

00:04:10In particular,

00:04:11Lord Salmon said

00:04:12that in his view

00:04:13the issue would be

00:04:14inappropriate,

00:04:16artificial and unnecessary.

00:04:18Now, in any case, my lord,

00:04:20the issue does not apply here.

00:04:21The defendant was found

00:04:23not guilty of prostitution

00:04:25and here she is charged with perjury.

00:04:27My lord,

00:04:28in my learned friend's anxiety

00:04:29to use the word prostitution,

00:04:31he seems to have overlooked

00:04:32the fact that prostitution

00:04:33is not an offence in English law

00:04:35and therefore my client

00:04:36could not have been found

00:04:37not guilty of committing it.

00:04:39If my learned friend will bear with me,

00:04:40I will concede

00:04:41that she was found not guilty

00:04:42of soliciting for an immoral purpose.

00:04:44It doesn't roll so cuttingly

00:04:46off the tongue as prostitution,

00:04:47but in all accuracy,

00:04:48that was what the court

00:04:49found she hadn't done.

00:04:51My lord,

00:04:52I am, of course,

00:04:52grateful to my learned friend

00:04:54for her conviction.

00:04:55However,

00:04:56scoring points aside,

00:04:57the main point stands.

00:04:59I have here

00:05:00the law report.

00:05:01Have you anything further

00:05:03to say, Miss Scott?

00:05:04No, my lord,

00:05:05I too have the report here

00:05:06and I can see nothing in it

00:05:07which would make it improper

00:05:08for your lordship

00:05:09to dismiss this case.

00:05:10I see.

00:05:12Well,

00:05:14it will surprise

00:05:14neither of you,

00:05:16I hope,

00:05:17to learn that I too

00:05:18have studied that report

00:05:19very carefully

00:05:20and it seems quite clear

00:05:21to me from their lordship's judgment,

00:05:24whatever may have been

00:05:25commonly thought before,

00:05:27that this case

00:05:28is perfectly properly brought.

00:05:30even if the defendant

00:05:33was found not guilty

00:05:35in a previous case,

00:05:37I shall have to accept

00:05:38the same evidence again

00:05:39in this case.

00:05:41Lord Sammott said

00:05:42quite specifically

00:05:43that a judge,

00:05:45and I quote,

00:05:49that a judge had not

00:05:51and should not appear

00:05:52to have any responsibilities

00:05:54for the institution

00:05:55of prosecution,

00:05:56nor had a judge

00:05:57any power to refuse

00:05:59to allow a prosecution

00:06:00to proceed

00:06:01merely because he considered

00:06:02that as a matter of policy

00:06:04it should not have been brought.

00:06:07So,

00:06:08unless and until

00:06:09Parliament enacts

00:06:10a new law,

00:06:11it is quite clear to me

00:06:12that I must allow

00:06:14this trial to proceed.

00:06:16My lord,

00:06:17I accept, of course,

00:06:18as I must,

00:06:18your judgment.

00:06:20However,

00:06:20I hope your lordship

00:06:21will allow me to point out

00:06:22to the jury

00:06:23as this trial proceeds

00:06:24where I believe

00:06:25the prosecution

00:06:25is vexatious

00:06:26and abusive,

00:06:28a case where

00:06:28the noble lord said

00:06:29a judge could intervene.

00:06:32You may raise points

00:06:33as you think fit,

00:06:34Miss Scott.

00:06:35Thank you, my lord.

00:06:36And I will rule upon them

00:06:37as I think fit.

00:06:39Of course, my lord.

00:06:40Mr Parsons?

00:06:41Lord,

00:06:43members of the jury,

00:06:44you will have gathered

00:06:45this is a most unusual case.

00:06:49Briefly,

00:06:49it arose like this.

00:06:51The defendant,

00:06:52Sylvia Turner,

00:06:52was arrested

00:06:53for soliciting

00:06:55for an immoral purpose.

00:06:57She was tried

00:06:58at a Fultzton magistrate's court

00:06:59where she pleaded

00:07:00not guilty.

00:07:01She gave sworn evidence

00:07:03in support of her plea

00:07:04and was found

00:07:05not guilty.

00:07:06However,

00:07:07the police were not satisfied

00:07:09that justice had been done

00:07:10and they continued

00:07:11their investigations.

00:07:13They gathered evidence

00:07:14that Miss Turner

00:07:14had in fact committed

00:07:16perjury during the trial.

00:07:18She was charged

00:07:18and arrested

00:07:19and she appears here

00:07:20to answer

00:07:22those charges.

00:07:23Now,

00:07:24I want you to remember

00:07:25that we are not here today

00:07:27to try Miss Turner

00:07:28for soliciting

00:07:29for an immoral purpose

00:07:30but what we do say is

00:07:32that she committed perjury

00:07:34when she said

00:07:35she was not.

00:07:36Now,

00:07:37at the magistrate's court

00:07:38the police called

00:07:38only one witness,

00:07:39Police Constable Wilkins.

00:07:41We will be calling

00:07:42other witnesses

00:07:43to establish

00:07:44beyond doubt

00:07:45that Miss Turner

00:07:46was soliciting.

00:07:48However,

00:07:49first of all,

00:07:50I will call

00:07:51the arresting officer.

00:07:52I call

00:07:53Police Constable Wilkins.

00:07:57Constable,

00:07:58will you tell

00:07:59the court

00:07:59the details

00:08:00of your arrest

00:08:01of Miss Turner

00:08:02on February 12th?

00:08:04May I use my notebook,

00:08:05my lord?

00:08:06Were your notes

00:08:07made at the time?

00:08:08About ten minutes after.

00:08:10Very well.

00:08:11Thank you, my lord.

00:08:13I was in a panda car

00:08:14parked at the junction

00:08:16of Filing Street

00:08:16and High Street,

00:08:17Fulchester

00:08:17when I saw

00:08:19the defendant,

00:08:19Miss Sylvia Turner,

00:08:21standing in the shop doorway

00:08:22of Brannigan's.

00:08:23She appeared to be looking

00:08:24at the people passing

00:08:25and in fact

00:08:26she spoke to several men.

00:08:28As one man passed her,

00:08:29I saw her approach him

00:08:30and speak to him.

00:08:32The man then hurried off

00:08:33as if embarrassed.

00:08:34I got out the car

00:08:35and I arrested Miss Turner

00:08:36for soliciting.

00:08:37I see.

00:08:38Now,

00:08:38you don't arrest

00:08:39every woman

00:08:40who speaks to a man.

00:08:41No, sir.

00:08:42But the defendant

00:08:43is a known prostitute

00:08:44and it was obvious

00:08:45from the way

00:08:46she was talking to men

00:08:47and the way

00:08:47in which she approached

00:08:48the final man,

00:08:49his embarrassment

00:08:50and hurrying off

00:08:50that she was soliciting.

00:08:52Yes.

00:08:52Now, you say that Miss Turner

00:08:53is a known prostitute.

00:08:55Oh, yes.

00:08:56I've arrested her

00:08:57three or four times myself.

00:08:59Yes.

00:08:59Did the accused say anything

00:09:00to you when you arrested her?

00:09:02She was abusive, sir.

00:09:04Yes.

00:09:04Now, you say that Miss Turner

00:09:05is a known prostitute.

00:09:07That's right.

00:09:07And you had no doubt

00:09:09that what you saw

00:09:10that afternoon

00:09:11was Miss Turner

00:09:12soliciting men

00:09:13in the street.

00:09:14No doubt at all.

00:09:15Yes.

00:09:15And this evidence

00:09:16is exactly the same

00:09:18as you gave

00:09:18at the magistrate's court.

00:09:20Certainly.

00:09:21It's what happened.

00:09:21Yes.

00:09:22Thank you, constable.

00:09:37Constable,

00:09:42what did Miss Turner

00:09:43say to the last man?

00:09:45I didn't hear.

00:09:46Why not?

00:09:47Well, I was inside a car

00:09:48and 40 yards away.

00:09:49Ah, so she could have been

00:09:50saying good morning

00:09:51or your shoelace is undone

00:09:53or Jesus saves

00:09:54and you wouldn't have been

00:09:54able to tell the difference.

00:09:56I shouldn't have thought

00:09:57it was the last one.

00:09:58Oh, constable, why not?

00:09:59Well, as I said, she was...

00:10:00She was a known prostitute.

00:10:02Yes, we heard you, constable.

00:10:03Have you ever heard

00:10:04of Mary Magdalene?

00:10:06Yes.

00:10:07And how would you

00:10:08describe her?

00:10:10My lord...

00:10:11A known prostitute, constable.

00:10:13I think you've made

00:10:14your point, Miss Scott.

00:10:16Yes, my lord.

00:10:17Constable, you must have

00:10:18gathered how long she spoke.

00:10:20I mean, you did see

00:10:20her lips move.

00:10:22Well, it was 40 yards

00:10:23and people were passing.

00:10:24Yes, of course, constable.

00:10:25So, how do you know

00:10:27Miss Turner spoke first?

00:10:29I'm afraid I don't

00:10:30quite understand, ma'am.

00:10:31Well, it's very simple, constable.

00:10:33If Miss Turner was soliciting,

00:10:34as you put it,

00:10:35she must have spoken first,

00:10:37don't you agree?

00:10:38Not necessarily, ma'am.

00:10:39Oh?

00:10:40Well, the man could have

00:10:41said to her,

00:10:41your shoelace is undone,

00:10:42and then she could have

00:10:43asked him if he wanted

00:10:44a short time.

00:10:44But you're not suggesting

00:10:45that is what happened?

00:10:47No, I'm just...

00:10:47Because you couldn't, could you?

00:10:48You have no idea

00:10:49who spoke first, have you?

00:10:51It looked to me

00:10:51as if she was soliciting.

00:10:53But exactly how?

00:10:54Did she lift her skirt,

00:10:56jingle keys,

00:10:57do a strip tease?

00:10:58No, ma'am.

00:11:00They talked

00:11:00and the man

00:11:01hurried away.

00:11:02That's right.

00:11:04You're in the corridor

00:11:05when my learned friend

00:11:06and I came into court.

00:11:07You saw us?

00:11:08Yes, ma'am.

00:11:09We were talking

00:11:09and my learned friend

00:11:11walked away, remember?

00:11:12Yes.

00:11:13But you didn't arrest me.

00:11:14Well, no, ma'am.

00:11:15The services

00:11:16for which you receive

00:11:17a fee are not,

00:11:18so far as I know,

00:11:19illegal.

00:11:19Very good, constable.

00:11:21But,

00:11:22nor are Miss Turner's.

00:11:24It is illegal

00:11:24to solicit

00:11:25for an immoral purpose.

00:11:26I know that.

00:11:28But you have to convince

00:11:28the jury

00:11:29that she was soliciting.

00:11:31Now, I put it to you

00:11:32that the man

00:11:33spoke to Miss Turner first.

00:11:35Not so far as I saw.

00:11:36She approached him.

00:11:38Well, whether or not

00:11:38she took a step towards him,

00:11:40you have absolutely

00:11:40no way of knowing

00:11:41who spoke first.

00:11:44No, ma'am.

00:11:45Thank you, constable.

00:11:47Now, you said

00:11:47you arrested her.

00:11:49You haven't told us

00:11:49what she said.

00:11:51Well, I approached

00:11:51Miss Turner

00:11:52and I informed her

00:11:53I was arresting her

00:11:54for soliciting.

00:11:55And she replied,

00:11:56piss off, Wilkie,

00:11:57I'm not working.

00:11:58But you did not

00:11:59believe her?

00:11:59I'd seen her soliciting.

00:12:01You had seen a man

00:12:02and a woman talking

00:12:03and assumed

00:12:04the woman was soliciting.

00:12:06Now, if Miss Turner

00:12:07had not been

00:12:08a known prostitute,

00:12:10would the briefest

00:12:10of brief conversations

00:12:11have excited your interest?

00:12:13My lord,

00:12:13how can the constable

00:12:14possibly answer

00:12:15such a hypothetical question?

00:12:17I withdraw the question,

00:12:18my lord.

00:12:19Yes?

00:12:20Constable,

00:12:21you have told the court

00:12:22that when you approached

00:12:23Miss Turner,

00:12:24she told you

00:12:25that she was not soliciting.

00:12:27Yes.

00:12:28Did you do anything

00:12:28to check your suspicions?

00:12:30I don't see what you mean, ma'am.

00:12:32Well, did you, for example,

00:12:33ask the man

00:12:33what she had said to him?

00:12:35No, not at the time, no.

00:12:37Well, I am talking

00:12:38about what happened

00:12:38at that time.

00:12:40It did not occur to you

00:12:41to go to the man first

00:12:42and check.

00:12:42It's not usual

00:12:43in such cases.

00:12:44The man had already

00:12:45been embarrassed

00:12:46and where it was clear

00:12:47to me that...

00:12:47But was it clear, constable,

00:12:48that is the point?

00:12:50You say you were afraid

00:12:51of embarrassing the man,

00:12:52but you had no compunction

00:12:53in embarrassing Miss Turner.

00:12:54Well, we're not usually

00:12:55concerned with a criminal's

00:12:57embarrassment

00:12:57when we arrest them.

00:12:58No, of course not, constable,

00:12:59but the state does require

00:13:00you to be sure

00:13:01that a person is a criminal

00:13:02before you arrest them.

00:13:04Now, I shall return

00:13:05to the man later.

00:13:07Now, you said,

00:13:08Miss Turner said,

00:13:09piss off, Wilkie,

00:13:10I'm not working.

00:13:11That's right.

00:13:12That's a very familiar

00:13:13mode of address, isn't it?

00:13:15You get used to such language.

00:13:16No, I'm talking

00:13:17about your name.

00:13:18It sounds as if

00:13:19you were old friends.

00:13:20She knew me.

00:13:21Yes, of course she did, constable.

00:13:23How many times

00:13:24have you arrested her?

00:13:26It's hard to be sure.

00:13:27Two or three times.

00:13:28In fact, three times.

00:13:31September 74, January 75,

00:13:33and the case under trial

00:13:34now in February 76.

00:13:36She was also arrested

00:13:37for soliciting by another

00:13:38policeman in May 75.

00:13:40Now, do those dates

00:13:41mean anything to you?

00:13:43No.

00:13:44Well, let me put it

00:13:45to you, constable.

00:13:46There is an interval

00:13:47of five months

00:13:48in the first three arrests.

00:13:50September 74

00:13:51to January 75,

00:13:52then January 75

00:13:53to May 75,

00:13:55then there's a longer gap.

00:13:57May 75

00:13:58to February 76.

00:13:59Twice as long.

00:14:01How do you account

00:14:01for that?

00:14:02She must have been

00:14:03getting clever, mum.

00:14:04Or she gave up

00:14:05working the streets

00:14:06in that period.

00:14:07I can't say.

00:14:08No, of course you can't, constable.

00:14:09But it is interesting

00:14:10that you assumed

00:14:11she was still working.

00:14:13Now, I put it to you

00:14:14that you operate

00:14:15a sort of rotor system

00:14:17in arresting known prostitutes.

00:14:19I don't know

00:14:20what you mean, ma'am.

00:14:21That you pick up

00:14:22known prostitutes regularly

00:14:24on the assumption

00:14:25that they are still working.

00:14:26No, we only pick up women

00:14:28when we see them working.

00:14:29But it is interesting, constable,

00:14:31isn't it,

00:14:31that Miss Turner's

00:14:32first three arrests

00:14:33were so regularly spaced.

00:14:36Coincidence, ma'am.

00:14:37Perhaps.

00:14:38Or perhaps every five months

00:14:39Miss Turner had a brainstorm

00:14:40and picked up a client

00:14:41under the noses

00:14:42of the police.

00:14:43If I tell you, constable,

00:14:45that prostitutes

00:14:46in this town

00:14:46are reasonably sure

00:14:47that they know

00:14:48when they will be arrested,

00:14:49would you be surprised?

00:14:51No.

00:14:51Why not?

00:14:52Well, we have

00:14:53an efficient police force

00:14:54and if anyone

00:14:55sets out to break the law

00:14:56they can be reasonably sure

00:14:57of getting caught.

00:14:59Very good, constable.

00:15:00But I am talking about women

00:15:02who are breaking the law

00:15:03as you put it,

00:15:03all the time

00:15:04yet they know to

00:15:05within a week or two

00:15:06when they will be arrested.

00:15:07Now, do you still maintain

00:15:09that you don't pick up

00:15:10known prostitutes regularly

00:15:11without bothering

00:15:11over much about

00:15:12whether or not

00:15:13they were soliciting

00:15:13at the time?

00:15:14No.

00:15:15Definitely not.

00:15:17Nevertheless,

00:15:17you are pretty accurate

00:15:18in your arrests, aren't you?

00:15:20Almost always

00:15:21the women plead guilty,

00:15:22don't they?

00:15:23Usually.

00:15:24My lord,

00:15:25I followed this line

00:15:26of questioning

00:15:26very closely

00:15:27for some time

00:15:28but I fail to see

00:15:29what relevance

00:15:30it has to this case.

00:15:31I'm sure I can show

00:15:32its relevance

00:15:32in a very short time,

00:15:34my lord,

00:15:34if you will pardon

00:15:35the expression.

00:15:36Very well, Miss Scott.

00:15:37I do hope so

00:15:38because at the moment

00:15:40I am in sympathy

00:15:41with Mr Parsons.

00:15:42Thank you, my lord.

00:15:45Now, constable,

00:15:45when was the last time

00:15:47that a woman you arrested

00:15:48for soliciting

00:15:49plead not guilty?

00:15:50In the case of Miss Turner.

00:15:52I see.

00:15:53And before that?

00:15:55I can't remember any.

00:15:56None?

00:15:57No.

00:15:59Constable,

00:16:00I looked up the records

00:16:01for this town

00:16:01and I find

00:16:03that in the past

00:16:0496 cases of soliciting

00:16:05only Miss Turner

00:16:07pleaded not guilty.

00:16:07Now, does that surprise you?

00:16:09No, it shows

00:16:10how careful we are.

00:16:12I put it to you

00:16:13that it shows

00:16:13how the system works.

00:16:15Miss Turner

00:16:16had the temerity

00:16:17to plead not guilty

00:16:18and the police

00:16:19decided that this

00:16:19should not go unpunished

00:16:20so she finds herself

00:16:21in the dock for perjury.

00:16:22My lord,

00:16:23that is grossly improper.

00:16:24My learned friend

00:16:25must know

00:16:26that an officer

00:16:26of the rank of constable

00:16:28cannot initiate

00:16:29a prosecution

00:16:30for perjury.

00:16:31How can the officer

00:16:32possibly comment

00:16:33or answer

00:16:33such a proposition?

00:16:34Miss Scott,

00:16:35I think you've taken

00:16:36this line of questioning

00:16:37as far as it can

00:16:38properly go

00:16:39unless you're going

00:16:40to be more specific.

00:16:42My lord,

00:16:42I have to establish

00:16:43the whole circumstances

00:16:45and atmosphere

00:16:45of that first trial

00:16:46to explain

00:16:47how a perjury charge

00:16:48came to be brought.

00:16:50Now, my lord,

00:16:50I do submit

00:16:51that I can establish

00:16:52that the charge

00:16:53is vexatious and abusive

00:16:54if you will allow me

00:16:55to pursue this line

00:16:56just a little further.

00:16:57Yes, well,

00:16:58try not to be too long

00:16:59about it, Miss Scott.

00:17:01Yes, my lord.

00:17:02Thank you, my lord.

00:17:03I shall need

00:17:03very little more time.

00:17:06Now, constable,

00:17:07you must have been

00:17:08very surprised

00:17:09when Miss Turner

00:17:10pleaded not guilty.

00:17:11Well, it's everybody's right.

00:17:13Well, thank you, constable.

00:17:14I don't need lessons

00:17:14in English law from you.

00:17:15Were you or were you

00:17:16not surprised

00:17:17when Miss Turner

00:17:18pleaded not guilty?

00:17:19Yes.

00:17:20Angry, even?

00:17:21I wouldn't say that.

00:17:23But you were angry

00:17:24when she established

00:17:25that she was,

00:17:26in fact, not guilty.

00:17:27She didn't,

00:17:28as far as I was concerned.

00:17:29The jury found her

00:17:30not guilty,

00:17:31but I knew she was.

00:17:32Even though you hadn't

00:17:33checked with a man concerned?

00:17:35Yes.

00:17:36But were you angry?

00:17:38Well, no one likes

00:17:39having their word doubted.

00:17:41My lord, I have.

00:17:41asked this witness

00:17:42the same question twice

00:17:43each time he evades it.

00:17:45He is wasting

00:17:45the limited time.

00:17:46Your lordship

00:17:47has kindly allowed me.

00:17:49You must answer

00:17:50the questions directly.

00:17:52I'm sorry, my lord.

00:17:53Now, constable,

00:17:55were you angry?

00:17:57No.

00:17:58I put it to you

00:17:59that you and your colleagues

00:18:00were angry

00:18:01because Miss Turner

00:18:02had broken

00:18:03the unwritten rules.

00:18:04She had pleaded not guilty,

00:18:05and if women accused

00:18:06of soliciting

00:18:07started to do that,

00:18:08you would all be involved

00:18:09in a great deal more work.

00:18:10And so this perjury charge

00:18:12was brought

00:18:12so that it wouldn't

00:18:13become a habit.

00:18:14No.

00:18:14Now, I put it to you

00:18:15that you were angry too

00:18:16because Miss Turner

00:18:17had unexpectedly brought

00:18:18a social worker

00:18:19to give evidence for her.

00:18:20No.

00:18:21And so this charge of perjury

00:18:22was brought so that

00:18:23the girls wouldn't think

00:18:23that they could use

00:18:24the courts for justice

00:18:25instead of an unofficial

00:18:26system of paying tax.

00:18:27No.

00:18:27My lord,

00:18:28my learned friend

00:18:29is getting answers

00:18:30to her questions,

00:18:31but because she doesn't

00:18:32like them,

00:18:33she's taking to

00:18:33answering them herself.

00:18:35She's not here

00:18:35to give evidence.

00:18:36Miss Scott,

00:18:37you're beginning

00:18:38to make speeches.

00:18:39Do not follow

00:18:40this line of questioning

00:18:41any longer.

00:18:43As your lordship pleases.

00:18:44Have you any further

00:18:45questions for this witness?

00:18:46Yes, my lord.

00:18:47Well, then I hope

00:18:48they'll be on a different topic.

00:18:50Yes, my lord.

00:18:53Constable,

00:18:54did you know any of the men

00:18:55who approached Miss Turner?

00:18:57I knew slightly

00:18:59the final man

00:19:00who Miss Turner approached.

00:19:01Slightly, you say?

00:19:02Yes.

00:19:04My lord,

00:19:04I believe the man

00:19:05in question

00:19:06is going to be called

00:19:06by the prosecution.

00:19:08It would greatly help

00:19:09if we could hear

00:19:09his evidence

00:19:10before I finish

00:19:10my cross-examination

00:19:11of this witness.

00:19:12Oh, really, Miss Scott?

00:19:14Justice cannot

00:19:15otherwise be done.

00:19:16My lord,

00:19:17if it will assist,

00:19:18I have no objections.

00:19:19Oh, very well.

00:19:20In that case, my lord,

00:19:21I will reserve

00:19:22my re-examination.

00:19:24Yes.

00:19:24You may leave

00:19:25the witness box off, sir.

00:19:27If you can...

00:19:30Yeah.

00:19:35My lord,

00:19:36as the constable

00:19:37hasn't finished

00:19:37giving evidence,

00:19:38I would prefer it

00:19:39that he did not

00:19:40remain to hear

00:19:40the other evidence.

00:19:42You will wait

00:19:43outside, constable.

00:19:44Ah, my lord,

00:19:51I had planned

00:19:51to call

00:19:52WPC Jones,

00:19:54who took

00:19:54Miss Turner's

00:19:55statement

00:19:55at Fultz

00:19:56to police station.

00:19:57However,

00:19:57since I understand

00:19:58her evidence

00:19:58is not in dispute,

00:19:59I simply plan

00:20:00to read it.

00:20:01Go ahead.

00:20:02My lord,

00:20:02I do realise

00:20:03that the prosecution

00:20:04had a back-up witness

00:20:05to establish

00:20:05that Miss Turner

00:20:06was a prostitute,

00:20:06but as I am

00:20:07making no secret

00:20:08of that fact,

00:20:09I can see

00:20:10why my learned

00:20:10friend does not

00:20:11wish to call

00:20:11the policewoman.

00:20:12However,

00:20:13I do have

00:20:14some questions

00:20:14for her

00:20:15and if necessary,

00:20:16I shall call

00:20:16her as a defence witness.

00:20:18My lord,

00:20:18there is,

00:20:19of course,

00:20:19no need

00:20:20for my learned

00:20:21friend to do that.

00:20:22I will call

00:20:22WPC Jones

00:20:24in order

00:20:24that my learned

00:20:25friend can question

00:20:26her.

00:20:26Very well.

00:20:27And you took

00:20:30the statement

00:20:31from Miss Turner

00:20:32at the police station?

00:20:34That's right.

00:20:35Thank you,

00:20:36Miss Jones.

00:20:38Miss Jones,

00:20:39why did you

00:20:40take down

00:20:40Miss Turner's

00:20:41statement?

00:20:42I was told to

00:20:43by the station sergeant.

00:20:44I see.

00:20:45It is usual

00:20:46for the arresting

00:20:47officer to do this,

00:20:48isn't it?

00:20:49Well, yes,

00:20:49but Police Constable

00:20:50Wilkins was going

00:20:51off duty.

00:20:52It's not all

00:20:52that unusual.

00:20:54What did you say

00:20:55when you saw

00:20:55P.C. Wilkins

00:20:56bringing in,

00:20:57Miss Turner?

00:20:58Oh, I can't

00:20:58remember.

00:21:00Miss Jones,

00:21:00this woman is

00:21:01on trial

00:21:01for a very

00:21:02serious offence.

00:21:03I must ask

00:21:04you to try

00:21:04to remember.

00:21:06Something like,

00:21:07here we are

00:21:08again, then?

00:21:08Ah, something

00:21:09like, but not

00:21:09quite.

00:21:10I put it to you

00:21:11that you said,

00:21:12you're overdue,

00:21:13aren't you?

00:21:14You'll be thinking

00:21:14it's legal.

00:21:15Well, I may have

00:21:16made a joke.

00:21:17I do know

00:21:17the defendant.

00:21:18But did you

00:21:19say those words?

00:21:20I can't remember

00:21:21as I said.

00:21:21Ah, so you can't

00:21:22deny that you

00:21:23said those words?

00:21:23No.

00:21:24Well, let's

00:21:25look at them.

00:21:25You're overdue,

00:21:27aren't you?

00:21:27What does that

00:21:28mean?

00:21:28I don't know.

00:21:30You said I said

00:21:30them, I didn't.

00:21:31And you'll be

00:21:32thinking it's legal.

00:21:33What does that

00:21:34mean?

00:21:34My lord, this

00:21:35witness has already

00:21:36correctly said.

00:21:37She cannot be

00:21:38asked to give the

00:21:38meaning of words.

00:21:39She has sworn she

00:21:40can't remember

00:21:41saying.

00:21:41Very well, my lord.

00:21:42I will not press

00:21:43the point.

00:21:45Miss Jones, do you

00:21:47know the defendant?

00:21:48Yes.

00:21:49Where have you

00:21:49met her?

00:21:50At the station

00:21:51several times, and

00:21:52of course on the

00:21:53streets, working.

00:21:55Have you ever

00:21:55arrested her?

00:21:57No.

00:21:58Why not?

00:22:00I don't understand.

00:22:01Well, you say you

00:22:02saw her soliciting,

00:22:03but you didn't

00:22:04arrest her.

00:22:05Well, I believe

00:22:06she was working,

00:22:07but I didn't

00:22:08actually see her

00:22:08approach a man

00:22:09when I was

00:22:09watching.

00:22:10Well, nevertheless,

00:22:11you said on oath

00:22:12that you saw her

00:22:12working, and as

00:22:14she is a prostitute,

00:22:14that means she

00:22:15was soliciting.

00:22:16Now, did you or

00:22:16did you not see

00:22:17her working?

00:22:18I assumed she

00:22:19was waiting for

00:22:20men.

00:22:20Ah, you assumed.

00:22:22And if a man had

00:22:23come along and

00:22:24words had been

00:22:24exchanged, you

00:22:25would have assumed

00:22:26that the woman

00:22:27was soliciting for

00:22:27an immoral purpose?

00:22:28Well, it would

00:22:29depend.

00:22:29On what, Miss

00:22:30Jones?

00:22:31Well, on the way

00:22:31she approached the

00:22:32man, the man's

00:22:33attitude, and so on.

00:22:34How would you

00:22:35know what the

00:22:35man's attitude was?

00:22:37Would you go up

00:22:37and ask him?

00:22:38We try not to

00:22:39embarrass innocent

00:22:40members of the

00:22:40public.

00:22:41Oh, so rather than

00:22:42check on who

00:22:43approached whom, you

00:22:44would assume that

00:22:45the woman was

00:22:45soliciting?

00:22:46Only if the

00:22:46nature of the

00:22:47approach was

00:22:47obvious.

00:22:49Miss Jones, do

00:22:50the police ever

00:22:51receive complaints

00:22:51from women about

00:22:52being approached

00:22:53by men?

00:22:54In cars, for

00:22:55example?

00:22:55Sometimes.

00:22:56Oh, so there

00:22:56are men who

00:22:57look for women

00:22:58on the streets

00:22:58for immoral

00:22:59purposes?

00:22:59Yes.

00:23:00And if one of

00:23:01these men went

00:23:02up to a known

00:23:03prostitute and

00:23:04solicited her and

00:23:06then walked away,

00:23:07who would you

00:23:08arrest?

00:23:09Oh, the man

00:23:10probably, for

00:23:10conduct likely to

00:23:11cause a breach of

00:23:12the peace.

00:23:12If you had heard

00:23:14what he had said?

00:23:16Yes.

00:23:16And if you

00:23:17hadn't, if you

00:23:18hadn't even seen

00:23:19who had spoken

00:23:19first, and the

00:23:20woman was a known

00:23:21prostitute?

00:23:22I...

00:23:24I'm not sure...

00:23:25My lord, my

00:23:26learned friend

00:23:27seems to be

00:23:27conducting a

00:23:29half-dozen

00:23:29offences, all

00:23:30for hypothetical

00:23:31clients.

00:23:33I think you've

00:23:35made your point,

00:23:36Miss Scott.

00:23:37I'm sure I have,

00:23:38my lord.

00:23:39I have no further

00:23:39questions of this

00:23:40witness.

00:23:52The cases in

00:24:00Fullchester Crown

00:24:00Court are

00:24:01fictitious, and

00:24:02you can join us

00:24:03tomorrow when the

00:24:04case of the Queen

00:24:04against Turner will

00:24:05be resumed in the

00:24:07Crown Court.

00:24:22Sylvia Turner, a

00:24:41common prostitute, was

00:24:42arrested for soliciting

00:24:43for an immoral

00:24:44purpose, but was

00:24:45found not guilty at

00:24:47the magistrate's

00:24:47court.

00:24:48The police were not

00:24:49satisfied with the

00:24:50verdict, and after

00:24:50further investigation,

00:24:51arrested Miss

00:24:52Turner and charged

00:24:54her with perjury on

00:24:55the basis of her

00:24:56evidence at the

00:24:56original trial.

00:24:58The jury in today's

00:24:59trial is selected

00:25:00from members of the

00:25:00public, whose names

00:25:01appear on the

00:25:02electoral register and

00:25:03who are eligible for

00:25:04jury service.

00:25:06After police evidence,

00:25:07the prosecution's

00:25:08case continues in the

00:25:09Crown Court.

00:25:11You are Philip Hall?

00:25:13Yes.

00:25:14Of 53 Landfield Grove

00:25:16Foodster?

00:25:17Yes.

00:25:18What is your

00:25:18occupation, Mr.

00:25:19Hall?

00:25:20I'm an under-manager

00:25:21at the UFK supermarket

00:25:22in the High Street.

00:25:23I see.

00:25:24Do you remember the

00:25:25events of February

00:25:26the 12th this year?

00:25:27Yes.

00:25:28Yes.

00:25:28Now, will you please

00:25:29tell the court the

00:25:31circumstances of Miss

00:25:32Turner's arrest near

00:25:33Brannigan's that day?

00:25:34Well, I was walking

00:25:36back to the supermarket

00:25:37after my lunch, and I

00:25:39noticed this woman

00:25:39stood in Brannigan's

00:25:40shop doorway.

00:25:41Could you say who

00:25:42this woman was?

00:25:43Yes, it was the

00:25:44defendant, there.

00:25:45Yes.

00:25:45Now, you're quite sure

00:25:46about that.

00:25:47Oh, yes.

00:25:49Good.

00:25:49Carry on.

00:25:51Well, as I passed

00:25:51the doorway, she spoke

00:25:52to me.

00:25:53Yes.

00:25:53Now, you're quite sure

00:25:54that she spoke first?

00:25:57Yes.

00:25:58What did she say?

00:25:59Something like,

00:26:00lovely day.

00:26:02Yes.

00:26:02What did you say?

00:26:03Something like,

00:26:04too nice to be working.

00:26:06Yes.

00:26:07Can you remember

00:26:07what she said then?

00:26:09Yes, I can remember

00:26:10that exactly.

00:26:11She said,

00:26:12surely you can take

00:26:13half an hour off.

00:26:15I said, what for?

00:26:16She said, you can

00:26:17have a lot of fun

00:26:18in half an hour.

00:26:19Yes.

00:26:19And you took that

00:26:20to be an approach

00:26:21for an immoral purpose.

00:26:22Well, no, I wasn't

00:26:23sure then, but I was

00:26:24sure when she said,

00:26:26half an hour back

00:26:26at my place, and you

00:26:27won't notice the work

00:26:28for the rest of the day.

00:26:29I see it.

00:26:30So, there was then

00:26:31no doubt in your mind

00:26:33that Miss Turner

00:26:33was inviting you back

00:26:34to her flat

00:26:35for an immoral purpose.

00:26:37Absolutely.

00:26:38Yes.

00:26:39Thank you, Mr Hall.

00:26:42Mr Hall,

00:26:43you said you were

00:26:44an under-manager

00:26:45at the supermarket.

00:26:46Yes.

00:26:47What are your duties?

00:26:49General.

00:26:50Supervising the store

00:26:51under the manager.

00:26:53I see.

00:26:54And what do you

00:26:55supervise,

00:26:56specifically?

00:26:58The staff.

00:26:59The general running

00:27:00of the stock.

00:27:01Do you see to the

00:27:02loading of the shelves,

00:27:03arrange staff rotors?

00:27:05No.

00:27:05So, what exactly

00:27:06do you do, Mr Hall?

00:27:09Mainly what's

00:27:09for shoplifting and so on.

00:27:10Ah, you are

00:27:11the security officer

00:27:12at the supermarket.

00:27:15Security is part

00:27:16of an under-manager's job.

00:27:18If necessary,

00:27:19I can call witnesses

00:27:20to prove that

00:27:21you have described

00:27:21yourself as a security

00:27:23officer when you

00:27:24are not appearing

00:27:24as a police witness

00:27:25in a court.

00:27:26Now, are you

00:27:27or are you not

00:27:28the security officer

00:27:29at the supermarket?

00:27:30Yes.

00:27:32Good.

00:27:33So, why did you

00:27:34describe yourself

00:27:34as the under-manager?

00:27:36Well, that is my grade

00:27:37within the organisation.

00:27:39So, you weren't

00:27:40actually committing

00:27:41perjury when you

00:27:41described yourself

00:27:42as an under-manager?

00:27:44No, of course not.

00:27:45Good.

00:27:46You just thought

00:27:47it would be more

00:27:48convenient to describe

00:27:49yourself that way.

00:27:51That is my grade.

00:27:52Now, as security officer,

00:27:55you must fairly often

00:27:56come into contact

00:27:57with the police.

00:27:58Fairly often, yes.

00:28:00So, you know

00:28:00P.C. Wilkins?

00:28:01Yes.

00:28:02Quite well?

00:28:04Professionally.

00:28:05I see.

00:28:06You meet him

00:28:07when you have

00:28:07caught a shoplifter

00:28:08and you send

00:28:09for the police.

00:28:10Yes, that sort of thing.

00:28:11So, you have seen

00:28:11him fairly often.

00:28:13Yes.

00:28:14Now, please tell

00:28:16the court exactly

00:28:16what happened

00:28:17when P.C. Wilkins

00:28:18came to ask you

00:28:19what had happened

00:28:20outside Branigan's.

00:28:22Well, he came

00:28:23into the shop

00:28:23and asked me

00:28:24if I remembered

00:28:24the incident.

00:28:25And, of course,

00:28:25you did.

00:28:26Oh, yes.

00:28:27It was only a day

00:28:27or so before,

00:28:28after all.

00:28:29I see.

00:28:30And you told him

00:28:31exactly what you

00:28:32told the court today.

00:28:33That's right.

00:28:33He didn't prompt

00:28:34you in any way.

00:28:35No.

00:28:36No.

00:28:37It's important

00:28:38for you in your job

00:28:39that you have

00:28:39the cooperation

00:28:40of the police,

00:28:41isn't it?

00:28:42It is.

00:28:43But every law-abiding

00:28:44citizen has that.

00:28:45Yes, but you're

00:28:46not a typical

00:28:46law-abiding citizen.

00:28:48You are part

00:28:48of the law enforcement

00:28:49scene.

00:28:50Certainly not officially.

00:28:52No, but unofficially.

00:28:55Yes.

00:28:56And you wouldn't

00:28:57want any behaviour

00:28:58of yours to spoil

00:28:59the smooth-working

00:29:00relationship you have

00:29:01with the police.

00:29:02There's no reason

00:29:03for that to happen.

00:29:04I'm sure there

00:29:05isn't, Mr Hall.

00:29:07Now, did you know

00:29:08Miss Turner

00:29:08before this happened?

00:29:10I knew of my sight,

00:29:11certainly.

00:29:12How was that?

00:29:14Well, I work

00:29:15on the High Street.

00:29:15I've seen her working.

00:29:17Did you speak to her

00:29:18often?

00:29:19No.

00:29:20Did you speak to her

00:29:21at all?

00:29:22Well, I may have

00:29:23said good morning.

00:29:23Oh, come along,

00:29:24Mr Hall.

00:29:24I put it to you

00:29:25that you had quite

00:29:26a jokey, bantering

00:29:27relationship with

00:29:28Miss Turner.

00:29:29No, absolutely not.

00:29:31I had no sort

00:29:32of relationship

00:29:32with her at all.

00:29:34I am not accusing

00:29:35you of trying to

00:29:36procure Miss Turner,

00:29:37Mr Hall.

00:29:37I'm just saying

00:29:38that on occasion

00:29:39you exchange

00:29:40pleasantries in a

00:29:41friendly way.

00:29:42No.

00:29:42My instructions

00:29:49are, Mr Hall,

00:29:50that it was you,

00:29:51as a joke, of course,

00:29:52who actually suggested

00:29:54going off together

00:29:54for half an hour.

00:29:56No, that's not true.

00:29:57And she said

00:29:58that she wasn't working.

00:30:00No, it was as I said.

00:30:02Understand me,

00:30:03Mr Hall,

00:30:03no one is seriously

00:30:05suggesting that you

00:30:05meant to go with

00:30:06Miss Turner,

00:30:07but that cheerfully,

00:30:09banteringly,

00:30:09you said,

00:30:10it was too nice

00:30:11for work,

00:30:11how about a short

00:30:12time?

00:30:12No, absolutely not.

00:30:15Very well.

00:30:16Thank you, Mr Hall.

00:30:17I have no further

00:30:18questions of this

00:30:19witness panel.

00:30:20Thank you, Mr Hall.

00:30:22You may go and sit down.

00:30:26I call Mrs Elaine Lloyd.

00:30:32Mrs Lloyd,

00:30:33you work as a supervisor

00:30:34at Branigan's

00:30:35department store.

00:30:37Yes.

00:30:37Now, will you tell

00:30:38the court

00:30:39exactly what you saw

00:30:40on the morning

00:30:41that Miss Turner

00:30:42was arrested?

00:30:43Well, I was standing

00:30:44near the men's shirt

00:30:45counter.

00:30:46Yes, that's on

00:30:47the ground floor.

00:30:49That's right,

00:30:49it's nearest the door.

00:30:51It used to be

00:30:51ladies' fashions,

00:30:52but then these market

00:30:53research people

00:30:54reorganized the store,

00:30:55and they said

00:30:56that women will go

00:30:57upstairs to shop,

00:30:57but men buy quickly

00:30:58or not at all.

00:30:59Yes, thank you,

00:31:00Mrs Lloyd.

00:31:00So you were standing

00:31:01near the door.

00:31:02What did you see?

00:31:04Oh, I saw that woman.

00:31:06The woman in the dock?

00:31:08Yes, her.

00:31:09I saw her speak

00:31:10to Mr Hall.

00:31:11Now, let's get this

00:31:12absolutely clear,

00:31:13Mrs Lloyd.

00:31:14You saw Miss Turner

00:31:16speak to Mr Hall.

00:31:18Yes.

00:31:19And what did

00:31:19Mr Hall do?

00:31:20He spoke very shortly

00:31:21to the woman

00:31:22and hurried off.

00:31:23Yes, and you've

00:31:23absolutely no doubt

00:31:24in your mind

00:31:25as to whom

00:31:26approached whom.

00:31:27No, none.

00:31:28That woman was soliciting.

00:31:29Yes.

00:31:30Thank you,

00:31:30Mrs Lloyd.

00:31:33Mrs Lloyd,

00:31:34you recognized

00:31:35that woman,

00:31:36as you put it.

00:31:37Oh, yes.

00:31:38I've seen her before

00:31:39and several of her kind.

00:31:40You feel very strongly

00:31:41that prostitutes

00:31:42should be punished,

00:31:43do you, Mrs Lloyd?

00:31:44Well, of course I do.

00:31:45It's disgusting.

00:31:46And what is your

00:31:47attitude to the men,

00:31:48Mrs Lloyd?

00:31:49They're just weak,

00:31:51aren't they?

00:31:51I mean,

00:31:51if the girls weren't

00:31:52there to tempt them...

00:31:53Ah, they just buy

00:31:54on impulse, do they,

00:31:54Mrs Lloyd?

00:31:55They don't go upstairs,

00:31:56so to speak.

00:31:57Well, yes,

00:31:58I suppose it is

00:31:59the same thing.

00:32:00You know Mr Hall,

00:32:02the security officer

00:32:02at the supermarket,

00:32:03do you?

00:32:04Oh, yes.

00:32:05You couldn't imagine

00:32:05him initiating

00:32:06a conversation

00:32:07with a prostitute.

00:32:08Impossible.

00:32:10Could you tell us

00:32:10again, Mrs Lloyd,

00:32:12what you saw

00:32:12on that day?

00:32:14Well, that woman

00:32:15was talking to Mr Hall.

00:32:16Just a minute,

00:32:17Mrs Lloyd.

00:32:18You said was talking.

00:32:21Did you see Mr Hall

00:32:22walking along the pavement

00:32:23before she spoke to him?

00:32:25Well, no,

00:32:26as I said...

00:32:27No, you said you saw

00:32:27Miss Turner talking

00:32:28to Mr Hall,

00:32:29but he was standing still.

00:32:31Yes.

00:32:33Do you know why

00:32:33he was standing still?

00:32:35No.

00:32:36So, when you looked out,

00:32:38you saw Mr Hall standing

00:32:39and Miss Turner

00:32:40talking to him.

00:32:42Well, that's right,

00:32:43as I said.

00:32:44But you don't know

00:32:45why he was standing.

00:32:46Now, it could be

00:32:47because she had called him,

00:32:49or it could be

00:32:50because he wanted

00:32:51to talk to her.

00:32:52The point is,

00:32:53you looked after

00:32:54someone had already spoken.

00:32:56The question is who?

00:32:57Miss Turner

00:32:57or Mr Hall?

00:32:58Well, it must have been

00:32:59the girl she was soliciting.

00:33:01No, Mrs Lloyd,

00:33:02that is what we are here

00:33:03to find out.

00:33:05Now, apart from your prejudice

00:33:06and what you think

00:33:07of Miss Turner

00:33:07or anyone else,

00:33:09is there any evidence?

00:33:10Can you remember anything

00:33:12that would prove to you

00:33:13and to us

00:33:13that it was Miss Turner

00:33:15who spoke first?

00:33:16Well, she was speaking

00:33:17when I saw her.

00:33:18But we have already established

00:33:19that the encounter

00:33:20had already started

00:33:21before you noticed it,

00:33:22Mrs Lloyd.

00:33:23Who spoke first?

00:33:25Well, I don't know.

00:33:27Thank you, Mrs Lloyd.

00:33:28I have no further questions,

00:33:29my lord.

00:33:30No, I, my lord.

00:33:32Very well.

00:33:34Thank you, Mrs Lloyd.

00:33:35You may leave the witness box.

00:33:39My lord,

00:33:39that concludes the case

00:33:40for the prosecution

00:33:41apart from the unfinished

00:33:42evidence of P.C. Wilkins.

00:33:44I should be grateful, my lord,

00:33:46if I could complete

00:33:47my cross-examination

00:33:48of P.C. Wilkins now.

00:33:49Very well.

00:33:51Recall the constable.

00:34:08Now, you will remember

00:34:10you are still on oath.

00:34:11Of course.

00:34:13Now, you said

00:34:13in your previous evidence

00:34:14that you knew Mr Hall

00:34:16slightly.

00:34:17That's right.

00:34:18But we have heard

00:34:19Mr Hall say

00:34:20that he had quite a lot

00:34:21of dealings with the police

00:34:22in his job

00:34:23as a security officer.

00:34:24Well, I'm not the hold

00:34:25of the police force, ma'am.

00:34:27Nevertheless,

00:34:27you did recognise him

00:34:29at the time

00:34:29of the encounter

00:34:30with Miss Turner.

00:34:31Yes.

00:34:32You said, too,

00:34:34that the police

00:34:35would prefer

00:34:35not to compound

00:34:36the embarrassment

00:34:36caused by a prostitute

00:34:38to an innocent member

00:34:39of the public

00:34:39by checking with them.

00:34:41That's right.

00:34:41You saw

00:34:43what you took

00:34:43to be an act

00:34:44of soliciting

00:34:45an unofficial colleague

00:34:46of yours,

00:34:47a man who watches

00:34:47out for thieves,

00:34:48often women,

00:34:49stuffing stolen goods

00:34:50all over their anatomy,

00:34:52and you didn't check

00:34:53with him

00:34:53in case he blushed.

00:34:55Well, there was no need.

00:34:56I was sure of the offence.

00:34:57But when she was found

00:34:58not guilty,

00:35:00you knew exactly

00:35:01where to go

00:35:01to collect evidence

00:35:02for this trial.

00:35:03I knew the man

00:35:04had been approached,

00:35:06yes.

00:35:06And you were so incensed

00:35:07by the miscarriage

00:35:08of justice

00:35:09that you had to

00:35:10summon on all your courage

00:35:11and approach Mr Hall

00:35:12even if he did blush.

00:35:13I asked him

00:35:14what had happened.

00:35:15As a matter of interest,

00:35:16did he squirm

00:35:16with embarrassment?

00:35:18Of course not.

00:35:19So, your tender concern

00:35:20had not been necessary

00:35:21after all.

00:35:21You found Mr Hall

00:35:22ready to give evidence.

00:35:25Yes.

00:35:26And he would want

00:35:27to keep his relationship

00:35:28with you in good repair.

00:35:30I don't know

00:35:30what you mean.

00:35:31Don't you, Constable?

00:35:32Did he remember the case?

00:35:34Yes, very well.

00:35:34And he read

00:35:35the press reports.

00:35:36He said he was thinking

00:35:37of coming to us.

00:35:38Ah, yes.

00:35:38The press reports.

00:35:39They weren't very favourable

00:35:41to the police,

00:35:41were they?

00:35:42They reported the case.

00:35:43Ah, yes, they did indeed.

00:35:45And the magistrates comment

00:35:46and the editor commented.

00:35:48As a matter of fact,

00:35:49I have a copy

00:35:50of the Fulchester Gazette

00:35:51here with me.

00:35:53Magistrates reprimand

00:35:54the police.

00:35:55Do you remember that?

00:35:57Of course I do.

00:35:58Yes, of course.

00:35:58You and your colleagues

00:35:59must have been very upset

00:36:00at all that adverse publicity.

00:36:02Well, no one likes

00:36:03unfair criticism.

00:36:04But not everyone

00:36:05has as much power

00:36:06to do something about it.

00:36:07I put it to you

00:36:09that you were determined

00:36:10to upset that verdict

00:36:12and set out

00:36:12to collect evidence

00:36:13to do so.

00:36:15I did what I was told.

00:36:17And what precisely

00:36:18were you told?

00:36:19The inspector had me in

00:36:21and he asked me in detail

00:36:22about the case.

00:36:23I told him I was convinced

00:36:24I'd done the right thing

00:36:25and he told me

00:36:26to prove it.

00:36:27Oh, that's an interesting way

00:36:28of putting it, Constable.

00:36:29You weren't told

00:36:31to check the truth

00:36:32of your idea

00:36:33of what happened.

00:36:34You were told

00:36:35to prove it.

00:36:36Yes.

00:36:37And so you went along

00:36:38to your friend,

00:36:39Mr Hall.

00:36:40He's not my friend.

00:36:42Very well.

00:36:42You went along

00:36:43to Mr Hall

00:36:43who you found

00:36:44knew all about the case,

00:36:45had read the papers

00:36:46and knew exactly

00:36:47what you wanted.

00:36:48He told me

00:36:49what had happened.

00:36:50And you weren't surprised

00:36:51that it coincided

00:36:52exactly with your evidence

00:36:53as reported

00:36:54in the Fulchester Gazette.

00:36:56No.

00:36:56Why should I be?

00:36:57No reason, Constable.

00:36:58No reason at all.

00:37:00And then you came across

00:37:01Mrs Lloyd

00:37:01who could also corroborate

00:37:03your story.

00:37:04That's right.

00:37:05But how did you

00:37:05come across her?

00:37:07A routine.

00:37:08The offence occurred

00:37:09in Brannigan's doorway

00:37:10and I went into the shop

00:37:11to find out

00:37:11if anyone saw it.

00:37:12And you found

00:37:13Mrs Lloyd.

00:37:15She had seen it, yes.

00:37:16But it was fortunate

00:37:17for you that she just

00:37:18happened to be looking

00:37:19out of the window

00:37:19at the time.

00:37:21I suppose so.

00:37:21Even if she didn't

00:37:22see the start

00:37:23of the encounter

00:37:23and therefore can't tell

00:37:24who started it.

00:37:25Constable,

00:37:27I put it to you

00:37:28that this prosecution

00:37:29arises out of

00:37:30the determination

00:37:30of the police

00:37:31to discourage prostitutes

00:37:32from pleading not guilty

00:37:34and so causing...

00:37:35My Lord.

00:37:35I have finished

00:37:35with this witness,

00:37:36my Lord.

00:37:39Now, Constable,

00:37:40you've been subjected

00:37:41to a great deal

00:37:42of innuendo.

00:37:43Shall we clear away

00:37:44some of this emotional fog

00:37:46and look at the evidence?

00:37:47Yes, sir.

00:37:48Now, as far as you

00:37:49were concerned

00:37:49that afternoon,

00:37:50you were convinced

00:37:50that what you saw

00:37:52was a known prostitute

00:37:53working in the normal way.

00:37:55Yes, sir.

00:37:56You've no personal feelings

00:37:57about this case

00:37:58one way or another.

00:38:00No, sir.

00:38:01Well, if anything,

00:38:02I quite liked the defendant.

00:38:03She was always cheerful

00:38:04and friendly.

00:38:05I see.

00:38:06So, there was no reason,

00:38:07is no reason,

00:38:08for you suddenly

00:38:08to become the fiend

00:38:10of my learned friend

00:38:10that's trying to make you.

00:38:11My Lord.

00:38:12I withdraw that, my Lord.

00:38:15Was there any reason

00:38:16for you to continue

00:38:17the case

00:38:18after the magistrate's court?

00:38:20Only because there'd been

00:38:21a miscarriage of justice, sir.

00:38:23Yes, and it is the duty

00:38:24of the police

00:38:25to remedy that.

00:38:26Yes, sir.

00:38:27Yes.

00:38:27Thank you, constable.

00:38:28I've no further questions, my Lord.

00:38:30That concludes the case

00:38:31for the prosecution.

00:38:32Very well, thank you, constable.

00:38:35Yes, Miss Scott.

00:38:37My Lord,

00:38:37I submit that the prosecution

00:38:39has done nothing

00:38:40to show why this case

00:38:41can properly be brought.

00:38:42They have brought as witnesses

00:38:43only people who could have been

00:38:45brought to the magistrate's court.

00:38:46The charge refers exactly

00:38:48to the material

00:38:48of the original trial

00:38:49and I would submit, my Lord,

00:38:51that the continued trial

00:38:52of my client

00:38:53is vexatious and abusive.

00:38:55Miss Scott,

00:38:57my original ruling

00:38:58was not based

00:38:59on the nature of the evidence.

00:39:01It was based

00:39:02on the House of Lords ruling,

00:39:04Regina B. Humphreys, 1976.

00:39:08Therefore, the trial must go on.

00:39:11Please open your case.

00:39:13As your Lordship pleases.

00:39:16Members of the jury,

00:39:17by now you will be

00:39:18very well aware

00:39:19of the facts of this case.

00:39:21Indeed, I hope you are

00:39:22even now in a position

00:39:23to weigh the evidence

00:39:24and fine for my client

00:39:26before you have even heard

00:39:27the defence witnesses.

00:39:28However,

00:39:29there is one witness

00:39:30that I do intend to call

00:39:31who should convince you

00:39:33that Miss Turner

00:39:33was not working

00:39:35at the relevant time.

00:39:37Before that, however,

00:39:38I call the accused.

00:39:39to bring the box, please.

00:39:56What is your religion?

00:39:57It's here.

00:39:58Take the book in the right hand

00:39:59and read aloud

00:40:00the words written on the card.

00:40:01I swear by almighty God

00:40:02that the evidence I shall give

00:40:03should be the truth,

00:40:04the whole truth

00:40:05and nothing but the truth.

00:40:09Now, Miss Turner,

00:40:10you do realise

00:40:11the significance

00:40:12of that oath?

00:40:12Yes, I do.

00:40:13It's very important

00:40:14that you tell the truth.

00:40:16After all,

00:40:17if the police don't agree

00:40:17with the jury in this trial,

00:40:19we should hate them

00:40:20to bring you back

00:40:20to be tried for perjury

00:40:21in your perjury trial.

00:40:23My Lord,

00:40:23that is a gross slur

00:40:24on the police.

00:40:25Miss Scott,

00:40:26please confine yourself

00:40:27to examining your witness.

00:40:29Yes, my Lord.

00:40:31Miss Turner,

00:40:31what do you do for a living?

00:40:33I'm a prostitute.

00:40:34How long have you

00:40:35been a prostitute?

00:40:38About nine years.

00:40:40That's a long time

00:40:41for someone so young.

00:40:43Is it?

00:40:44Did you choose

00:40:45to become a prostitute?

00:40:48It's hard to say, really.

00:40:50Well, when exactly

00:40:51did you start going

00:40:52with men for money?

00:40:55I don't know.

00:40:55You go with your bloke

00:40:56when you're 14,

00:40:57gives you a present,

00:40:59and about a year later

00:41:01you're a bit clever,

00:41:01you make sure you've learned

00:41:02to make him

00:41:04give you a present

00:41:04before you go in.

00:41:05No, no, I'm not talking

00:41:06about giving presents,

00:41:06Miss Turner.

00:41:07I'm talking about

00:41:08the provision of sex

00:41:09for money

00:41:09as a commercial transaction.

00:41:12Well, in the beginning

00:41:13there isn't that much difference.

00:41:14You see, I didn't have a dad.

00:41:15Well, not since I was six

00:41:16he took off.

00:41:17And my mother

00:41:18were never there,

00:41:18so, well,

00:41:20I had to look after

00:41:20my brother and sisters.

00:41:21How many?

00:41:22One brother,

00:41:23two sisters.

00:41:24Go on.

00:41:26Well, when I left school

00:41:26I didn't get a job.

00:41:27I looked after them.

00:41:28What about your mother?

00:41:29She was always pissed.

00:41:31Sorry, my lord,

00:41:32she was drunk.

00:41:33I didn't have any money.

00:41:35If I wanted a dress

00:41:37or anything

00:41:38I had to find a way

00:41:38of going in it.

00:41:39By prostitution?

00:41:41Yes.

00:41:41I'd always been a gifted amateur,

00:41:43as they say.

00:41:44So going professional

00:41:44wasn't that much of a step.

00:41:46And did you ever

00:41:47bring the men home?

00:41:48No, I couldn't do that.

00:41:50Because of the kids,

00:41:51you see,

00:41:51I brought them up proper.

00:41:52I wanted them

00:41:52to behave themselves.

00:41:53My lord,

00:41:54this is all

00:41:55very fascinating,

00:41:56nay,

00:41:57heart-rending,

00:41:58but I fail to see

00:41:59what it's got to do

00:42:00with this case.

00:42:01My lord,

00:42:01this whole case

00:42:02rests on the truthfulness

00:42:03of the accused.

00:42:05Surely the jury

00:42:05must be able to know

00:42:06enough about her

00:42:07to judge that.

00:42:08Yes, I can see that,

00:42:09Miss Scott,

00:42:09but I do hope

00:42:10that your examination

00:42:11of your client's background

00:42:13won't be going on

00:42:14too long.

00:42:15No, my lord.

00:42:16No.

00:42:17Now, Miss Turner,

00:42:18you said that

00:42:19you brought them up properly.

00:42:21You mean that

00:42:21neither of your sisters

00:42:22are prostitutes?

00:42:23Yes, I do mean that.

00:42:24They've both got good jobs.

00:42:25In fact,

00:42:26they're both married now.

00:42:27And that pleases you?

00:42:28Yes, of course it does.

00:42:30Now, you still haven't

00:42:31explained exactly

00:42:31how you became

00:42:32a prostitute.

00:42:33What became of your mother?

00:42:36She had too much

00:42:36one night.

00:42:37She fell off a bus.

00:42:38How old were you then?

00:42:40I was about 17.

00:42:41How did you cope

00:42:42with the children?

00:42:43Well, I had to get money

00:42:44to make sure

00:42:44they'd properly looked after

00:42:45for when they left home.

00:42:46And you did that?

00:42:47Yes.

00:42:48By soliciting for men

00:42:49on the streets?

00:42:50Yes.

00:42:51Because you couldn't

00:42:52take them home.

00:42:53I didn't want to.

00:42:54A short time in the park

00:42:55or down by the canal.

00:42:56Knee tremblers, mostly,

00:42:58you know, the sort of thing.

00:42:58No, I'm afraid I don't.

00:43:00Standing up.

00:43:01Ah, I see.

00:43:02When me sisters

00:43:04got married,

00:43:05my lord,

00:43:05they left home.

00:43:07And me brother joined army.

00:43:09And I'd been caught

00:43:09by it fuzz once or twice,

00:43:10so I thought,

00:43:11well, it might as well

00:43:11move inside, like.

00:43:12I knew some blokes

00:43:13who used to look me up,

00:43:14so I started at home.

00:43:16Are you ashamed

00:43:17of being a prostitute?

00:43:20No, I'm not ashamed.

00:43:22I'm not proud of it, either.

00:43:23It's a job, isn't it?

00:43:24Well, it is for you,

00:43:26but there are many people

00:43:27who wouldn't see it like that.

00:43:29Well, I know that.

00:43:30I mean, I don't care, do I?

00:43:31Don't you?

00:43:33Well, there's no time

00:43:34to do about that.

00:43:36Well, one witness suggested,

00:43:37Mrs Lloyd, if you remember,

00:43:38that if there weren't women

00:43:39like you,

00:43:40men wouldn't be tempted.

00:43:42Well, if there weren't

00:43:43men looking for sex,

00:43:44there wouldn't be women

00:43:44like us.

00:43:45I mean, it works both ways,

00:43:46doesn't it?

00:43:46But not the punishments.

00:43:48Well, no.

00:43:49That's the way it is.

00:43:50It's a man's world, isn't it?

00:43:51Do you resent the fact

00:43:52that it's always the girls

00:43:53who get the blame?

00:43:55No.

00:43:56There's not much point.

00:43:57You mean,

00:43:58you and your friends

00:43:59accept the fact

00:43:59that if you are picked up

00:44:00for soliciting,

00:44:01you just pay the fine

00:44:02and carry on?

00:44:04Well, yeah, you have to,

00:44:05don't you?

00:44:06Do you know of any prostitute

00:44:08who has been picked up

00:44:09whilst working

00:44:10and then denied it

00:44:11in court?

00:44:12No.

00:44:13No, not round here I don't.

00:44:15I mean, it's not worth it.

00:44:16If the beak,

00:44:17sorry,

00:44:18if the magistrate

00:44:19know you are

00:44:20a known prostitute,

00:44:21then they're going to

00:44:22take police's word

00:44:23against yours,

00:44:23aren't they?

00:44:24And if you do deny it,

00:44:25you get a bigger fine.

00:44:26So you just go along

00:44:28with the system?

00:44:28Yeah, it's not that bad, really.

00:44:29I mean, the police

00:44:30are only doing their job.

00:44:31Straight people

00:44:32would really get on their backs

00:44:33if they never pulled

00:44:34in a working girl.

00:44:35So they all is in

00:44:35every few months

00:44:36just to show it isn't legal.

00:44:38You seem to have

00:44:38no feelings

00:44:39of personal animosity

00:44:40toward the police.

00:44:41I am.

00:44:42They're not bad, aren't they?

00:44:44But in the magistrate's court

00:44:45you broke the rules,

00:44:46the unwritten rules.

00:44:48You pleaded not guilty.

00:44:50Yes, I know I did.

00:44:51That would have been

00:44:52different.

00:44:52I mean, I was not working,

00:44:54I was shopping

00:44:54and I did have a witness.

00:44:55That would have dead liberty.

00:44:56Well, there are still

00:44:57the unwritten rules.

00:44:58The policeman's word is law

00:44:59and so on.

00:45:00Yes, yes.

00:45:01And if I probably,

00:45:02if I hadn't had a witness,

00:45:04I would have pleaded guilty.

00:45:05So on this occasion

00:45:06you decided not

00:45:07to take the easy way out.

00:45:09Yes, that's right.

00:45:10Yes, actually

00:45:11if I had not had a witness,

00:45:13I would probably

00:45:14have gone along

00:45:14with the system

00:45:15and pleaded guilty.

00:45:17Would that have been perjury?

00:45:19Well, that is what we call

00:45:20in court

00:45:21a hypothetical question.

00:45:22You did plead

00:45:23not guilty.

00:45:24Now, was Miss Kershaw

00:45:25a willing witness?

00:45:27Willing?

00:45:27She insisted.

00:45:29It's funny, isn't it?

00:45:29Straight people always think

00:45:30if you tell the truth

00:45:31you can't be armed.

00:45:32But subsequently

00:45:33Mr Hall appeared

00:45:34and said that you

00:45:35were soliciting him.

00:45:36Oh, but that's rubbish.

00:45:37I was shopping.

00:45:38But he said you asked him

00:45:39if he wanted to go with you.

00:45:40Now, did you?

00:45:42I could have done.

00:45:43I mean,

00:45:44but I wouldn't have been serious.

00:45:45What do you mean

00:45:46not serious?

00:45:47I knew he wouldn't

00:45:48even if he did.

00:45:49I was shopping.

00:45:50You were joking.

00:45:50Yes, I was

00:45:51and so was he.

00:45:52Now, I have to get this

00:45:53very clear.

00:45:55Whatever happened

00:45:55between you and Mr Hall

00:45:57there was no possibility

00:45:58of it leading to

00:45:59any form of sexual intercourse.

00:46:01No chance at all.

00:46:02I was shopping.

00:46:03Now, the constable said

00:46:05that you spoke to several men.

00:46:06Is that true?

00:46:07Well, I could have done.

00:46:09I mean,

00:46:09I know a lot of people

00:46:11on the high street.

00:46:12If I see somebody I know

00:46:12I say hello.

00:46:13You know, I'm polite.

00:46:14But you did not solicit

00:46:15anyone for sexual purposes.

00:46:17No, I keep saying

00:46:18I was shopping.

00:46:19Yes.

00:46:20Nevertheless,

00:46:20Mr Hall said

00:46:21that you approached him.

00:46:23Did you know who he was?

00:46:25Well, I used to work

00:46:26the high street.

00:46:26Yeah, I get to know

00:46:28people who work there.

00:46:28Did you ever speak to him?

00:46:30We used to joke sometimes.

00:46:32What about?

00:46:33Well,

00:46:34you used to say

00:46:35house trade then.

00:46:36I remember once

00:46:37he asked me

00:46:38and I said it were terrible.

00:46:40He said,

00:46:40I can't afford your prices.

00:46:41I'm waiting for January sales.

00:46:43Did you take him seriously?

00:46:44No, he couldn't get involved,

00:46:47could he?

00:46:47Not with his job.

00:46:49But you weren't unfriendly?

00:46:51No, he's not a bad bloke, really.

00:46:52For a security man, that is.

00:46:54Now, what about Mrs Lloyd?

00:46:56Do you know her?

00:46:58Well, I know by sight.

00:46:59I've never spoken to her.

00:47:01Why not?

00:47:02She always looks away

00:47:03when she sees me.

00:47:04She's doing it now.

00:47:05Or she looks daggers.

00:47:06You formed the impression

00:47:07that she did not like you.

00:47:09Well, that's not hard.

00:47:10She's a very typical

00:47:10uptight lady, isn't she?

00:47:11So you weren't surprised

00:47:12to find her in the witness box?

00:47:14No.

00:47:15Mind you, I'm not complaining.

00:47:16What do you mean?

00:47:18Well, it's women like her

00:47:18that give us our best clients.

00:47:20I mean, the husbands

00:47:21can't get much fun at home,

00:47:22can they?

00:47:22Oh, my Lord.

00:47:23I'm sorry.

00:47:24Quite.

00:47:25Miss Scott,

00:47:26I wouldn't think

00:47:27you serve your client's interests

00:47:29well by leading her

00:47:30into making such statements.

00:47:32I'm sorry, my Lord.

00:47:35Miss Turner,

00:47:36you said that you

00:47:38used to work the high street.

00:47:40Yes, that is true, yes.

00:47:41But you don't work

00:47:42the streets anymore.

00:47:43No, not work the candle.

00:47:44It used to be all right

00:47:45before my time,

00:47:46but it's not now.

00:47:47So how do you make a living?

00:47:49Well, I've got regulars.

00:47:51They recommend me to people.

00:47:54You can always put a card

00:47:55in a shop window.

00:47:56French lessons given.

00:47:58Swedish exercises taught.

00:47:59You know this sort of thing.

00:48:00So you've no need at all

00:48:01to take the risk

00:48:02of working on the streets.

00:48:03No, I can't even

00:48:04walk on them now,

00:48:04let alone work on them.

00:48:06Thank you, Miss Turner.

00:48:06Miss Turner,

00:48:07Miss Turner,

00:48:09Miss Turner,

00:48:11Miss Turner,

00:48:12Miss Turner.

00:48:12music

00:48:27The cases in

00:48:29Fulchester Crown Court

00:48:30are fictitious

00:48:31and you can join us again

00:48:32tomorrow when the case

00:48:33of the Queen against

00:48:34Turner will be concluded

00:48:35in the Crown Court.

00:48:37Sylvia Turner

00:49:04A common prostitute was arrested for soliciting for an immoral purpose

00:49:08but was found not guilty at the magistrate's court

00:49:11The police were not satisfied with the verdict

00:49:13and after further investigation

00:49:14arrested Miss Turner and charged her with perjury

00:49:17on the basis of her evidence at the original trial

00:49:20The jury in today's trial is selected from members of the public

00:49:23whose names appear on the electoral register

00:49:26and who are eligible for jury service

00:49:28We rejoin the trial as the prosecution council

00:49:31begins his cross-examination of Miss Turner

00:49:33Now Miss Turner, you have said

00:49:36that you weren't working on the day in question

00:49:39Yes, that's right

00:49:41I put it to you that you were

00:49:43standing in an accustomed spot on the high street

00:49:45seeing a man come along

00:49:46you automatically accosted him

00:49:48Rubbish!

00:49:49But you don't deny that if you were standing there

00:49:52working, as you so charmingly put it

00:49:54you would solicit a man if he came along

00:49:56No, I wouldn't deny that, no

00:49:58Tell the court exactly what you did

00:50:02when you solicited a man

00:50:03Well, it varies, doesn't it?

00:50:06I mean, you look at a man and you smile

00:50:08and you say nice day or nice evening

00:50:12you take it from there

00:50:13But you don't say that to every man that passes

00:50:14No, just to the ones that look at you in a certain way

00:50:19I see

00:50:20But if Mr Hall had come up to you

00:50:21and asked for an appointment sometime

00:50:23you would have made an arrangement

00:50:24Yes, of course I would

00:50:26What do you think I'd do?

00:50:27Complaint to police about him soliciting me

00:50:28You see, I put it to you

00:50:30that you were prepared

00:50:31on February the 12th

00:50:32to take any work that was offered

00:50:34even though the primary object of your outing was shopping

00:50:36Isn't that what Miss Scott calls a diabolical question?

00:50:39My lord, my client almost took the words out of my mouth

00:50:42though I'm not sure she isn't more accurate in saying

00:50:44that I would have been saying hypothetical

00:50:46I'm afraid you're caught, Mr Parsons

00:50:49between the upper and the nether feminine millstones

00:50:52Both are right

00:50:53Yes, my lord

00:50:55Now, Miss Turner, you said you no longer work the streets

00:50:59Yes, that's true, I don't

00:51:01But surely you gathered your regulars

00:51:03as you call them in that way

00:51:04In the beginning I did, yes

00:51:07And surely for one reason or another

00:51:09these cease to become regulars

00:51:11and you have to find a fresh supply, so to speak

00:51:13Well, I haven't had any bother that way, no

00:51:16You mean you couldn't take any more clients if offered?

00:51:20Um, yeah, no, I'm not saying that, no, yes

00:51:22So you do have time for more clients, then?

00:51:25Well, if you know of anybody, I'm sure I could manage

00:51:27or you, if that's what you're trying to find out

00:51:29Miss Turner, that is a gross contempt of this court

00:51:31I warn you that if you attempt to say anything like that again

00:51:34you'll find yourself in prison

00:51:35Yes, I didn't mean...

00:51:35In prison, Miss Turner

00:51:36Now, whatever the outcome of this perjury trial

00:51:38I'm very sorry, my lord, it was a joke

00:51:39We'll have no more jokes, understand?

00:51:41Yes, my lord, I'm very sorry

00:51:42Yes

00:51:42Carry on, Mr Parsons

00:51:44Thank you, my lord

00:51:45Now, Miss Turner, you are claiming that the police

00:51:48don't always arrest girls for soliciting in the street when they see them

00:51:52but they have some sort of rotor system

00:51:54Yes, that's right

00:51:55Do you have any evidence to support this preposterous theory?

00:51:59We all know it

00:52:00Even fuzzles sometimes say, come on, love, it's your turn tonight

00:52:03Something like that

00:52:04Yes, but it's only your word, isn't it?

00:52:06It's only part of the folklore among prostitutes

00:52:09Let's come now to the part of Miss Kershaw on this unhappy story

00:52:15You said that without her active encouragement

00:52:18you wouldn't have persisted in your determination to plead not guilty at the magistrate's court

00:52:22Yes, that's right

00:52:23You would have pleaded guilty and accepted your punishment

00:52:26and all this wouldn't have arisen

00:52:28Well, it's not her fault for the bad losers, is it?

00:52:31Well, it's not a question of being bad losers, Miss Turner

00:52:34It's a question of justice

00:52:35Well, that happened, as far as I'm concerned, in the magistrate's court

00:52:38But unfortunately for all of us

00:52:40an acquittal does not always mean the same as justice

00:52:43Don't you wish now that you had accepted that you had been fairly caught and accepted your punishment?

00:52:49I wish I'd pleaded guilty, but that's not the same thing

00:52:51You accept that you work at a profession that many people find distasteful

00:52:55that some people even find disgusting

00:52:57You accept that you had at one time walked the streets

00:53:00You accept that you spoke to men there

00:53:01and yet when the police arrest you, as they've done on several occasions before

00:53:06you and Miss Kershaw turn on a display of moral indignation

00:53:09and waste the time of at least two courts

00:53:12My lord, my learned friend seems to be saying that innocent people pleading not guilty

00:53:16are wasting the court's time

00:53:18My lord, the point I try to make here is that the word innocent is being stretched beyond this breaking point

00:53:23No one is claiming that Miss Turner is innocent of prostitution

00:53:26My lord, in the eyes of the law she is

00:53:28because the law does not recognise prostitution per se as a crime

00:53:31I hope you're both enjoying scoring points

00:53:34but may I suggest that you save them for your speeches to the jury

00:53:38Mr Parsons, pray continue

00:53:40without implying that the law exists

00:53:43to uphold anything but the law

00:53:46As your lordship pleases

00:53:48Now, Miss Turner, you have said that you wish you had pleaded guilty at the magistrate's court

00:53:54I put it to you that is because you were guilty

00:53:56No, I was not

00:53:57You accept that you're a prostitute

00:53:59You accept that you were talking to a man

00:54:01You accept that if the conversation had come to anything

00:54:04you would have made an arrangement

00:54:05My lord, my client did not admit that

00:54:08You will remember you ruled that as a diabolical question

00:54:11Yes, I'll rephrase that, my lord

00:54:13Please do

00:54:14Miss Turner, what was the difference in your demeanour

00:54:17between the way you were standing in Brannigan's doorway that afternoon

00:54:21and the way you would have been standing there if you were working?

00:54:25None, I suppose

00:54:26So you admit that to a policeman you looked exactly as though you were working?

00:54:31Yeah, I suppose I did

00:54:32but what does it matter?

00:54:33Because I wasn't working at the time

00:54:34Yes, but I must come back to the point, Miss Turner

00:54:38that you said you were prepared to take extra clients

00:54:40Now, you were standing in a spot where you normally collected them

00:54:45But I wasn't soliciting at the time

00:54:47and you can't make me say that I was

00:54:48Oh, I've no wish to make you say anything, Miss Turner

00:54:52What did you say to the policeman when he came up to you?

00:54:57I said to him, I said, I'm not working

00:54:58Yes, we hear that

00:54:59Have you ever said that before?

00:55:03Miss Turner, have you ever said that before?

00:55:06I may have

00:55:06Well, I put it to you that you heard that when you are working

00:55:09and a policeman comes up to you, you deny it

00:55:12But don't deny it in court, though

00:55:13We're not talking about the courts, Miss Turner

00:55:15We're talking about the high street

00:55:17Would you normally deny the fact that you were working when approached by a policeman?

00:55:21I probably would deny it, yes

00:55:22Yes, so when you told P.C. Wilkins to go away

00:55:27he would have found that perfectly normal

00:55:29My learned friend is asking the witness to speculate, my lord

00:55:32Yes, I withdraw that, my lord

00:55:34Were you surprised when P.C. Wilkins didn't believe you?

00:55:41No, I don't suppose I was surprised

00:55:43No

00:55:44Did you tell him you were shopping?

00:55:46Yes, I did

00:55:47Did you tell him you had a friend in the store?

00:55:49No, I didn't

00:55:50Really?

00:55:53You could have established your innocence there and then beyond doubt

00:55:56if innocent you were

00:55:57by telling the constable you had a friend in the store

00:56:00but you didn't do that

00:56:01No, it didn't seem fair

00:56:02I mean, I didn't know if she wanted to be involved

00:56:03I don't drag my mates down with me

00:56:05Oh, come on, Miss Turner

00:56:07You're not asking the court to believe

00:56:08that you didn't tell the constable you had a friend in the store

00:56:11out of a tender regard for feelings

00:56:12Yes, I do

00:56:13Aren't prostitutes supposed to have feelings?

00:56:15But you changed later

00:56:16That's because she insisted, I told you

00:56:18Yes, sir, you did

00:56:20Miss Turner, it all comes down to this, doesn't it?

00:56:24You were standing in the doorway

00:56:25talking to a man

00:56:27a doorway you used for soliciting

00:56:29but this time you tell us you weren't doing that

00:56:31That's true

00:56:32So let's come to the men you talk to

00:56:35You don't deny you talk to other men

00:56:37No, as I say

00:56:39I know a lot of men

00:56:40because I've worked on the street

00:56:41and if I see somebody I know, I say hello

00:56:43Yes, and some of these people were your clients

00:56:46No, I don't remember talking to any clients that day

00:56:48Oh, so all of these men were potential clients

00:56:51Well, I'm talking to you

00:56:52Does that make you a potential client?

00:56:55Because the judge told me I can't solicit in court

00:56:57Yes, but you weren't in the court that afternoon

00:56:59You were in your regular prostitute's beat

00:57:01I don't have a beat

00:57:03I work at home

00:57:04Ah, yes

00:57:05And you told us, Miss Turner, you left the streets

00:57:07because you've been picked up by the fuzz once or twice

00:57:10Yes, yes

00:57:11Not because you particularly disliked the streets

00:57:13but because you've been picked up once or twice

00:57:15Well, it's better at home

00:57:17No, no, answer my question

00:57:18Do you particularly dislike the streets?

00:57:22No, no, I don't

00:57:23No, not all that much

00:57:24No, I don't

00:57:24And sometimes you like the occasional thrill

00:57:27of picking up someone new

00:57:28just to keep your hand in, perhaps

00:57:29That's a joke, that is

00:57:30After being a prostitute for nine years

00:57:32I can tell you there's no thrill in picking up a man

00:57:34Really?

00:57:35Yes

00:57:35Now, you heard Mr. Hall

00:57:40recall a conversation he had with you

00:57:43Do you deny the accuracy of what was said?

00:57:47Could have been like that

00:57:48Oh, but he says that you invited him to spend a half hour with you

00:57:52That wasn't serious, it was jokey

00:57:55Just because I'm a prostitute doesn't mean I don't joke

00:57:58Come now, Miss Turner

00:58:00Are you seriously asking the court to believe that you are known prostitute

00:58:03to invite someone to your flat for half an hour and you're not serious?

00:58:06I couldn't be, I was shopping

00:58:08A lot of men joke with prostitutes

00:58:10I wouldn't dream of going with them

00:58:11They know it's safe, it makes them feel big

00:58:13But you don't deny that you invited Mr. Hall

00:58:17No

00:58:18Look, I might have said the words

00:58:21But it was a joke, I mean, I knew he wasn't serious

00:58:24It was a joke, I wasn't serious

00:58:26A joke?

00:58:27Yes

00:58:28Thank you, Miss Turner

00:58:31Miss Turner

00:58:33Have you ever tried to hide the fact that you were a prostitute?

00:58:38That would be a bit daft, wouldn't it?

00:58:39Because if I was the only person who knew I was a prostitute

00:58:41I wouldn't make much of a living, would I?

00:58:43Precisely

00:58:43And you made the point that you worked from your home and did not solicit

00:58:47Yes, that's right

00:58:48Did you enjoy it, working the streets?

00:58:52It's very risky, working the streets

00:58:53You've got a very good chance of being beaten up every now and again

00:58:56By clients?

00:58:57That's right

00:58:58Some men, you see, they don't enjoy normal sex, just like hurting people

00:59:00And if you're on the streets, they think they've got rights over you

00:59:03Well, surely that must happen to you at home

00:59:05No, not as a rule

00:59:07You see, you've got regulars or

00:59:08They're people that have been recommended to you

00:59:11Anyway, you've got more control in your own home

00:59:13But on the streets, you have taken a few beatings

00:59:16Oh, aye

00:59:16So you were pleased

00:59:18Some men look as if butter won't melt in their mouth

00:59:20You get them down and bang, you get a black eye before you know who you are

00:59:22They just like hurting people

00:59:24I mean, I don't understand it myself

00:59:26So you were pleased that there was no need to openly solicit

00:59:29Yes, of course I was

00:59:30And you don't need it anymore for the occasional thrill

00:59:33No

00:59:34People get the wrong idea about prostitutes

00:59:36They think because they like picking up people, then we do

00:59:38But you see, it's a job to us

00:59:39And anybody wants to do their job in the easiest possible way

00:59:42And for you, that is at home

00:59:44Yes, it's still not that easy, my neighbours don't like it

00:59:48Miss Turner, could you tell us again

00:59:50Why you didn't wish to involve Miss Kershaw at the time?

00:59:55It just didn't seem right, really

00:59:57Well, would it be true to say

00:59:58That you would be against telling the police anything

01:00:01Unless asked?

01:00:02Yes

01:00:03My lord, my learned friend is blatantly leading this witness

01:00:06Yes, my lord, I will withdraw that question

01:00:08Miss Turner

01:00:10Can you think of any reason why the police should seek to charge you with a crime that you did not commit?

01:00:17No

01:00:17Thank you, Miss Turner

01:00:19They've made a mistake and now they're trying to save face

01:00:21No more questions, my lord

01:00:22You may return to the dock

01:00:25You are Miss Joan Kershaw

01:00:38Yes

01:00:39And where do you live?

01:00:41Ten Elm Mansions, Elm Court, Fulchester

01:00:43And you are a social worker with the local authority

01:00:46Yes

01:00:46How did you come to know Miss Turner?

01:00:49I met her when she was in hospital, she had an appendix operation

01:00:52That was about a year ago

01:00:54Yes, that's right

01:00:54I visited her routinely and we chatted

01:00:57We became friendly

01:00:58Did you know that she was a prostitute?

01:01:00Oh, yes, she was very open about it

01:01:02And what was your attitude to that?

01:01:05I was sorry about it

01:01:06Sylvia's a bright, sensitive girl

01:01:08And I was sure she could live a much more fruitful life than the one she was living

01:01:12But you don't condemn her for what she does

01:01:14As a social worker, it's not my place to condemn or condone

01:01:17Just help if I can

01:01:18I see

01:01:19Now, what happened on the day in question?

01:01:22Sylvia and I went out shopping together

01:01:24We had made several purchases and time was getting on

01:01:27We split up for a few minutes

01:01:28I went into Brannigan's to buy some tights

01:01:31And Sylvia went to the jewellers

01:01:32She had to collect a watch that was being repaired

01:01:35We arranged to meet at the entrance of Brannigan's

01:01:37What happened then?

01:01:39I finished my purchase and when I came out she wasn't there

01:01:41Who told you what had happened?

01:01:44The supervisor at Brannigan's

01:01:46She had evidently seen it

01:01:48And what were your feelings then?

01:01:50I was shocked, of course

01:01:51Sylvia hadn't been soliciting

01:01:53We were shopping

01:01:54We were just about to have lunch at the Red Lion

01:01:57Sylvia just would not have picked anyone up and just left me flat

01:02:00It's inconceivable

01:02:02But Miss Turner was and is a prostitute

01:02:05I know

01:02:05But she's given up working the streets

01:02:07She doesn't need to anymore

01:02:09She has a group of regular clients

01:02:11It's a surprisingly settled, even sedate life

01:02:14And you're absolutely sure that Miss Turner could not have been soliciting?

01:02:19Absolutely

01:02:20Thank you, Miss Kershaw

01:02:21Miss Kershaw, you sound almost envious of Miss Turner's life

01:02:28I don't follow you

01:02:30Settled, even sedate, you said?

01:02:32It is

01:02:33Do you then approve of her profession?

01:02:36No, of course not

01:02:37I think she could do a lot more

01:02:39Have a longer list of clients?

01:02:43No, do something else

01:02:44Make more use of her mind, not just her body

01:02:47Yes, well, she seems quite happy

01:02:49Well, she is now, but how long is that going to last?

01:02:52I want her to go to college and prepare herself for getting old

01:02:55Becoming less attractive

01:02:56You talk as if you regard her as some sort of sportswoman

01:02:59A tennis player or a swimmer or something

01:03:02Oh, it's not so different

01:03:03A tennis player and a prostitute both use their bodies to entertain the public for money

01:03:07Are you seriously suggesting, Miss Kershaw

01:03:10That you can prepare someone who's dedicated themselves to preparing their bodies to a fine pitch of excellence

01:03:17With a common prostitute?

01:03:20I wouldn't generalise like that

01:03:22Some sportswomen abuse their bodies for gain

01:03:25Take anabolic steroids, for example

01:03:27Yeah?

01:03:28Or in the case of some young gymnasts in Eastern Europe

01:03:31Who take drugs to delay the onset of puberty

01:03:33I would consider this to be far more immoral than straightforwardly providing a sexual outlet for men

01:03:39Some of whom are unattractive or crippled in body and mind

01:03:42Hmm

01:03:42You make prostitution sound like a noble calling

01:03:45A high form of social service

01:03:48It isn't

01:03:49Not in this country

01:03:50It is in some others

01:03:52In Japan, for example

01:03:53A geisha is trained to a high state of perfection

01:03:56In providing social and physical favours for money

01:03:58Yeah?

01:04:00But we don't live in Japan, do we, Miss Kershaw?

01:04:03No

01:04:03We live in a society that is hypocritical and dishonest

01:04:07We are not willing to face up to the problems of sex

01:04:09For those who cannot enjoy what we consider normal sexual relationships

01:04:13And we persecute those girls who do

01:04:16Girls, nobly sacrificing their bloom of youth to satisfy the lusts of men?

01:04:22I didn't say that

01:04:23Prostitution is often exploitive, both of the girls and the men

01:04:27We can't evolve proper and civilised ways of dealing with difficult problems

01:04:32Until we are willing to talk about it, face up to it

01:04:35Hmm, I see

01:04:37Yes, Mr Parsons

01:04:39My Lord

01:04:40Miss Kershaw, you use the word persecute

01:04:43Do you believe the police are wrong to enforce the law?

01:04:47No

01:04:47But once you rush hot-footing her sex

01:04:49I agreed to give evidence for Sylvia

01:04:55Because she was not parading her sex in the streets

01:04:58She was waiting for me

01:04:59Nevertheless, you've said quite clearly and unambiguously

01:05:02That you believe that we are dishonest and hypocritical

01:05:05No doubt you don't approve that the laws have prohibited soliciting

01:05:07That would be a problem I would have to face

01:05:10If I believed Sylvia was soliciting

01:05:12As she wasn't, the problem doesn't arise

01:05:15Forgive me, Miss Kershaw, but it does arise

01:05:18It is not for you to tell all of us whether or not Miss Turner was soliciting or not

01:05:23It is for the jury to decide

01:05:25And to do that, they will have to weigh your evidence

01:05:28And they will want to know

01:05:29Whether or not they are listening to a woman who is completely content

01:05:32That perfectly normal, healthy men and women should be accosted in broad daylight by someone peddling sex

01:05:38I accept there has to be a balance

01:05:40As long as society as a whole can't face up to its own sexuality

01:05:44There probably has to be controls in soliciting

01:05:46Well, I'm sure we're all properly grateful to you for grudgingly allowing us to maintain common decency in the streets

01:05:53I think we're all quite aware now of what your views on this are, Miss Kershaw

01:05:58Let's now come to the events of that day

01:06:01You said that you split up and agreed to meet at Brannigan's

01:06:06That's right

01:06:06But after you split up, you didn't see Miss Turner again that afternoon

01:06:11Yes

01:06:12So actually you have no idea what happened in that shop doorway

01:06:16I know what I've been told and I weigh that against what I know of the people who told me

01:06:20Yes, we understand that, Miss Kershaw

01:06:23We are listening to someone who openly supports prostitution

01:06:26Who has referred to it as a high and noble calling

01:06:29And now you are trying to tell us that a prostitute didn't solicit someone

01:06:32Who you didn't even know she'd been arrested

01:06:34We are weighing what you say

01:06:36But now answer my question directly

01:06:39Did you, from your own observation, see what happened at Brannigan's doorway?

01:06:44No

01:06:44Thank you

01:06:45Have you ever seen Miss Turner soliciting?

01:06:52Yes, about a year ago

01:06:53Yes

01:06:54What did you do?

01:06:55Nothing at the time

01:06:56You watched this girl flaunt her

01:06:59She wasn't flaunting herself, she was discreet

01:07:01You did nothing about it

01:07:04You're a social worker and you saw this girl

01:07:07A girl who you claimed to be friendly with

01:07:09Offering her body in the street and you didn't go up to her and stop her

01:07:12She is her own person

01:07:14She must make her own life

01:07:16Well, it seems it's not just society that passes by on the other side

01:07:21Don't you agree that as a social worker

01:07:24It is your duty to do everything possible to stop the exploitation of young women

01:07:28Yes

01:07:28And this includes supporting a prostitute who is accused of soliciting

01:07:31If she wasn't soliciting, yes, of course

01:07:33I mean, don't you agree that society has a right to expect social workers to do everything

01:07:39In their power to support that society

01:07:42It depends on the society

01:07:44It has a right to expect that the social worker will strengthen her clients

01:07:48That's all

01:07:49And in doing that, some societies may be weakened

01:07:52And who is to be the judge of that?

01:07:54I don't know about you, but I still make my own moral decisions

01:07:57Yes

01:07:58And the jury will have noted one of them

01:08:00To appear as a surprise witness in a magistrate's court

01:08:03To achieve the acquittal of a known prostitute

01:08:06I was a surprise witness

01:08:08Only because the police have become used to prostitutes pleading guilty whether or not they are

01:08:12Because they have learned

01:08:14Even though the police haven't even bothered to prepare a proper case

01:08:17The bench will always take their word

01:08:18It surprises you that the bench wishes to uphold the law and its guardians

01:08:22That's very clever

01:08:24No, sir, it doesn't surprise me that the bench wishes to uphold the law

01:08:29But it would surprise me if you always thought that the law was upheld by its guardians

01:08:33Well, insofar as you are one of the guardians of that society

01:08:38It is surprising to me that you openly and willingly support someone who flouts the wishes of that society

01:08:43I'm not a guardian of society

01:08:45I'm the servant of my client

01:08:47And I hope I will always tell the truth to serve them whatever society thinks

01:08:51Well, your zeal sounds very impressive, Miss Kershaw

01:08:55But we must remember in this case telling the truth, as you put it

01:08:58It's on behalf of a common prostitute who you compare to an international ballet dancer

01:09:03Or a sportswoman because they both sell their bodies

01:09:05No further questions, my lord

01:09:06Miss Scott

01:09:07Miss Kershaw, do you approve of prostitution as a way of life in general?

01:09:14No, of course not

01:09:15Then how do you regard it?

01:09:16As a product of a sick society

01:09:18When everything else is measured in pounds and pence, why should the human body be the exception?

01:09:23And in the case of Miss Turner, you wish she would give it up altogether?

01:09:26Yes, I wanted to get her qualified in something

01:09:28But your attitude to prostitution in general does not affect your attitude to a particular client

01:09:35Of course not

01:09:36If social workers were always judging their clients, they'd be useless

01:09:39We're there to help, not to judge

01:09:42Thank you, Miss Kershaw

01:09:44You may go and sit down

01:09:45Now, perjury is a very serious offence in the eyes of the law

01:09:58Our whole system of justice depends on witnesses telling the truth

01:10:03When they've taken their oath during the course of a trial

01:10:07If you firmly believe that the conversation between the accused and Mr. Hall

01:10:13Constituted a sexual approach

01:10:16Then you must find the accused guilty

01:10:19But there is one principle of law that I must emphasize

01:10:25Before you can find the accused guilty

01:10:29You must be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt

01:10:32That the Crown has made out its case

01:10:34On the other hand, before you can find the accused not guilty

01:10:39You must be sure that when she spoke to Mr. Hall

01:10:43From that doorway

01:10:45Or when Mr. Hall spoke to her

01:10:48She had no intention

01:10:51Of offering herself

01:10:53For sexual purposes

01:10:55Now, will you please retire

01:10:58Elect a foreman

01:11:00And consider your verdict

01:11:02Will the form of the jury please stand

01:11:09Just answer this question, yes or no

01:11:12Have you reached a verdict upon which you were all agreed?

01:11:15Yes

01:11:16And do you find the defendant, Sylvia Turner

01:11:18Guilty or not guilty of perjury?

01:11:21Not guilty

01:11:21Miss Turner, you are free to go

01:11:27One moment

01:11:29We members of the judiciary

01:11:32Are not apt to express our own personal views

01:11:35But there are times

01:11:37When as a matter of conscience

01:11:39A man cannot remain silent

01:11:41It is my opinion

01:11:43That the ruling

01:11:45In the House of Lords

01:11:47In the case of Regina v. Humphreys

01:11:49A similar one

01:11:51To the one that we have just been trying

01:11:53Is one which is potentially

01:11:55Extremely dangerous

01:11:57It is my view

01:11:59That prosecuting authorities

01:12:01Should firmly set themselves

01:12:04Against this decision

01:12:05By the House of Lords

01:12:06And should determine

01:12:08Never even

01:12:10To consider

01:12:11Taking advantage of it

01:12:14All stand

01:12:17The cases in Fulchester Crown Court

01:12:38Are fictitious

01:12:39You can join us again

01:12:41For another leading case

01:12:42In the Crown Court

01:12:44You can join us again

Crown Court - A Working Girl (1976)

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